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Dagne
26-03-20, 08:42
EU leaders to consider ‘Marshall Plan’ for Europe

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/25/michel-eu-leaders-to-consider-marshall-plan-for-europe-148703

In a draft statement prepared ahead of the leaders' discussion and seen by POLITICO, officials wrote that the bloc would need an “exit strategy, a comprehensive recovery plan and unprecedented investment” for the coronavirus crisis, and would “invite the Commission to start work on a proposal for a Roadmap for recovery accompanied by an Action Plan.”


It is all rather abstract now, but what I wanted is a universal income support directly to individuals, rather than using the existing EU funding mechanisms which are way too bureaucratic and too slow. Besides, supporting economic development through EU funds is rather more about supporting political elites than really helping the people. Somehow I believe things should be very different this time.


What do you think, what are the ideas about checks being send to people directly in the US or the UK?
For instance, do you believe that US oil industry should be supported? Or is it time for them to go under with cheap crude oil?

Yetos
26-03-20, 11:57
The income support depends upon each state,

It is rather difficult to say a person in Greece will get the same amount of E, with a person in Sweden or with person in France,
The quantities of E will be according pop and state capitals, and the damage done to economy,
This has nothing to do with US oils,

In Europe the move of 11 is now the discuss,
the Corona-Bond title,

Europe also plans to buy back the factories and corporations.
tottaly rejecting the Chicago model, and Friedman,
and returning to Kaynesian model

it is uncertain the economical future of Europe,

bicicleur
26-03-20, 12:16
stupid politicians have endebted their countries the past decades
they failed to bring their budgets in order
they prefer to buy their votes and pass the invoice to future generations

such plans are a dream for such politicians
there will be lots of money spent the next 6 months
maybe they should, but those who spend it should be accountable for the next 10 years

Yetos
26-03-20, 13:16
stupid politicians have endebted their countries the past decades
they failed to bring their budgets in order
they prefer to buy their votes and pass the invoice to future generations

such plans are a dream for such politicians
there will be lots of money spent the next 6 months
maybe they should, but those who spend it should be accountable for the next 10 years

something inside me tends to agree.
That is the mistake of modern democracy,
by allow vote to all,

Maciamo
26-03-20, 13:34
I am not surprised that the idea of this post-Corona Marshall Plan should come from my "old buddy" Charles Michel. It would be interesting to see what concrete actions are proposed. I think that the economy will pick up quickly after the quarantine is lifted. It's mostly self-inflicted damage. Those who suffered the most are people in the travel and hospitality industry, but the money lost this Spring will be spent by travellers and diners as soon as things go back to normal. Travel plans have usually been postponed rather than completely cancelled. That means that there will be a travel boom afterwards. As for most consumer products, I doubt that the Corona pandemics will have any serious effect, as people keep buying as usual, but maybe more online than before.

bicicleur
26-03-20, 13:59
I am not surprised that the idea of this post-Corona Marshall Plan should come from my "old buddy" Charles Michel. It would be interesting to see what concrete actions are proposed. I think that the economy will pick up quickly after the quarantine is lifted. It's mostly self-inflicted damage. Those who suffered the most are people in the travel and hospitality industry, but the money lost this Spring will be spent by travellers and diners as soon as things go back to normal. Travel plans have usually been postponed rather than completely cancelled. That means that there will be a travel boom afterwards. As for most consumer products, I doubt that the Corona pandemics will have any serious effect, as people keep buying as usual, but maybe more online than before.

I think that international travel will be restricted till the end of the year.
Maybe in some countries the epidemic will be banned by end may, but not importing the virus again will be a serious challenge.
If the virus would re-ignite in some countries, it will be disastrous.
Marc Van Ranst says there will be a solution only when there is a vaccin, which may last till summer 2021.

The challenges should not be underestimated, and if politicians start to spend money just to profile themselves, consequences could be disastrous.
Financial support is needed, but it should be well-targeted.

Dagne
26-03-20, 14:17
Somehow I do not want all things to go back as as before.

Overspending, overconsuming, overpolluting, overworking, having no time for family and people whom you really like being with - many things in the current consumer society make people live like squirrels turning in the weal - such life is the real lock down, not the physical lockdown many of us are in now.


The positive things that we can learn from lockdown:

1) have a home and family where you really feel good;
2) many things are not necessary - like
- stressing oneself every day by going to work which you don't think is meaningful,
- buying things for showing off your status,
- going to eat out, only to find that you can make it better at home
- going to far away places only to continue with the lifestyle that you're having anyway
3) some things could be great or may help you to find important things for yourself like
- being able to sleep as much as you want and getting up whenever you feel like
- having time for emptiness in your mind
- enjoying the nature and long walks
- finding time for doing what you really like and where you are the CREATOR!

3) less traffic in the air and on the roads is just great.

Yetos
26-03-20, 16:36
The Truth behind corona-virus,

the law of controling circulation and its effect on agricultural.
next year, especially after summer, many food prices will raise more than 200%, especially vegies and fruits and dry nuts
the fear for the local open market will raise the packaged food consuption, meaning that Super market will be more profit, but more expencive.
I am allowed to go for 4 hours at orchande, but not to have a helper or an employ.

The effects in Logistics,
lately we see strange behavour in many EU countries as concern Logistics,
Delay at Boarders, convoy drive only behind a traffic police patrol vehicle,
stop for medical check every 4 hours.
I wonder if that could make a change at the logistics map,
The good point is that maybe a delay from Big Industry as before,
for example one factory at Athens to provide for half Europe,
maybe they broke to smaller giving oportunities for jobs.
Anyway mosr who are in this job expect that will create a kind of shortage of many products,

The internet 'infection'
Internet is a good tool, but also dangerous ,
The lockdown of schools, and the Stay Home, I think raise the bondage of youth with internet,
and we will need years to reverse it.

etc etc

to be honest,
I think that the ones who are happy are those who are connected with private and public insurance/retirement, cause Corona kills most elder,

the most damaged for recent period are those who are connected with parties, concert, political demonstrations and churches or temens,
even 'gansters' of drugs etc etc
but in future will be touristic corporations, from air-transport to local pension,

a local economist say that my country at coming Octomber may come back to just after crisis era,
the delay he estimates is 6 years.

the most certain is that 'hunger' is certain for next 2 years

Maciamo
26-03-20, 16:47
Somehow I do not want all things to go back as as before.

Overspending, overconsuming, overpolluting, overworking, having no time for family and people whom you really like being with - many things in the current consumer society make people live like squirrels turning in the weal - such life is the real lock down, not the physical lockdown many of us are in now.


The positive things that we can learn from lockdown:

1) have a home and family where you really feel good;
2) many things are not necessary - like
- stressing oneself every day by going to work which you don't think is meaningful,
- buying things for showing off your status,
- going to eat out, only to find that you can make it better at home
- going to far away places only to continue with the lifestyle that you're having anyway
3) some things could be great or may help you to find important things for yourself like
- being able to sleep as much as you want and getting up whenever you feel like
- having time for emptiness in your mind
- enjoying the nature and long walks
- finding time for doing what you really like and where you are the CREATOR!

3) less traffic in the air and on the roads is just great.

I completely agree. :)

Yetos
27-03-20, 02:44
http://images.newsnowgreece.com/133/1335571/1.jpg

It has started,
Global hunger will come inside 2020,
many food production countries will stop exportation,
until a huge and safe stock gathered for their own,

at 2020 summer/autumn may see some types of foods to be distributed as in 'other times',
the corona effect to global economy,
depends on each country skill to cover the cost,
but also connected with the fear of riots and revolts,
so many countries are shearching on how to keep people calm,
at least with plenty of local food,

https://www.proag.com/news/countries-starting-to-hoard-food-threatening-global-trade/

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-23/russia-considers-curbs-on-exports-of-some-food-medicines

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-25/vietnam-s-rice-trade-thrown-into-turmoil-on-export-halt-muddle

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-25/supply-chains-latest-a-few-nations-edge-toward-food-nationalism-k87a0gqh

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-24/countries-are-starting-to-hoard-food-threatening-global-trade

Dagne
27-03-20, 18:57
In my imagination Greece is the country of plenty - we have the Greek civilisation because Greek cities managed to produced more than consumed themselves and thus trade and arts flourished
https://www.ancient.eu/img/r/p/500x600/1143.jpg?v=1485680397
It will be just fine

Dagne
28-03-20, 08:32
I think that EU countries should be assisting each other with medical facilities and actually sending the doctors to team up with the regions with the most cases.
And it should be not just a voluntarily gesture of good will but a must.
It is very obvious that EU has the resources only they have to be allocated wisely, instead of each national country "digging in" and waiting for the worst to come. The epidemic moves in waves, and two-three weeks make a lot of difference . Medical capacities in Italy and Spain are overstreched now while other countries still have the resources and should be allocating them to help those countries.
It is basic strategic planning.

By going to other countries doctors could learn how to avoid major mistakes, which could be very valuable when taking back this experience to their countries
Besides, doctors should get enough sleep - deprivation of sleep to 4 hours per day during one week suppresses the immune system by 80%, which is really dangerous for medical staff.
Medical staff are a strategic resource, they should be properly taken care off on a managerial level, because individual people even they know this, often cannot help to do anything differently during emergency situation.

ΠΑΝΑΞ
28-03-20, 12:37
I'm quite disapointed from Germany. Unfortunately is not ready to adopt the leading role that -not only- E.U., but global interest - if there is such-, requires desperately from a country of that geopolitical size.


But this issue, from the begining it would be better not to put to the table. From now on, we have not be surprized, if we have the opposite effects of that we
expect from the every possibly plan, and that will be no other than the one we have to worry most... -Will we get over this as Europe united?


Anyway, all that cases with money from the sky, it is like the cases of the cheese and the mousetraps
Firstly you see the cheese, but later you feel the catch that break your spine.


We dont need -just- money, we need serious and responsible politics, we need solidarity and a couple of "europresidents" with all their mean to.
Otherwise... "The Party is over guys."

ΠΑΝΑΞ
28-03-20, 12:41
It is a major global event.
Everything will be different when we get over this.


"The beehive is buzzing", we all feel it now... and that ALL never was, more absolut and total.

ΠΑΝΑΞ
28-03-20, 13:25
In my imagination Greece is the country of plenty - we have the Greek civilisation because Greek cities managed to produced more than consumed themselves and thus trade and arts flourished
https://www.ancient.eu/img/r/p/500x600/1143.jpg?v=1485680397
It will be just fine
There is plenty of local variety. There is also plenty of quality among a certain local and topic experiance up on issues and matters. But when it is about the sizes of the quantity of products it is relativelly poor compare to the neighbours around us (Turkey.Balkans. Italy etc) There is lot of deal with the soil and the place and as well with the social and economic factors of each case.
For example (since you mention about the local Iron age) A roman aristocrat (-patrician to say;) he really have a possesion of a huge piece of land, relativelly
with an athenian aristocat, and the reason was that the enviroment was not exactly exploitative for huge investments, for many reasons politcal, social and
economic among natural limititations of landscape.


An other, but a little bit earlier incidents, is the noumerous migrations to all directions to built colonies and not just trade. I have the feeling that the issue to a
lot of cases wes overpopulation, in other words "few resources".


It is a peculiar topic. (the case of the "plenty" to our perception, -not the ecxclusivity of the greek paradigm above, I mean.)

ΠΑΝΑΞ
28-03-20, 13:35
The income support depends upon each state,

It is rather difficult to say a person in Greece will get the same amount of E, with a person in Sweden or with person in France,
The quantities of E will be according pop and state capitals, and the damage done to economy,
This has nothing to do with US oils,

In Europe the move of 11 is now the discuss,
the Corona-Bond title,

Europe also plans to buy back the factories and corporations.
tottaly rejecting the Chicago model, and Friedman,
and returning to Kaynesian model

it is uncertain the economical future of Europe,

Is it the "End of the Theories" as a lot of thinkers addressed before?
We'll see.

Greece hold well, so far. We're bonded than ever remember. We alligned with our goverment, and we are ready to deal with the big issues
that burden all 21st century societies. And those are:
Migration, economy, climate changes.

Yetos
28-03-20, 14:37
Is it the "End of the Theories" as a lot of thinkers addressed before?
We'll see.

Greece hold well, so far. We're bonded than ever remember. We alligned with our goverment, and we are ready to deal with the big issues
that burden all 21st century societies. And those are:
Migration, economy, climate changes.

I also have that feeling,
and until now we wallk good,
and in Greece we all know that the hanger era is now, not 2008 crisis,
the path to Freedom, or Death, :cool-v:

Angela
28-03-20, 16:06
I think that EU countries should be assisting each other with medical facilities and actually sending the doctors to team up with the regions with the most cases.
And it should be not just a voluntarily gesture of good will but a must.
It is very obvious that EU has the resources only they have to be allocated wisely, instead of each national country "digging in" and waiting for the worst to come. The epidemic moves in waves, and two-three weeks make a lot of difference . Medical capacities in Italy and Spain are overstreched now while other countries still have the resources and should be allocating them to help those countries.
It is basic strategic planning.

By going to other countries doctors could learn how to avoid major mistakes, which could be very valuable when taking back this experience to their countries
Besides, doctors should get enough sleep - deprivation of sleep to 4 hours per day during one week suppresses the immune system by 80%, which is really dangerous for medical staff.
Medical staff are a strategic resource, they should be properly taken care off on a managerial level, because individual people even they know this, often cannot help to do anything differently during emergency situation.

You're a sound thinker, Dagne, and more important, a good person.

The world would be a better place with more people like you.

Dagne
28-03-20, 21:10
I think the world changes so fast with the coronavirus. There is a need for many major changes that people are talking about, and some of them have been taking place already. Our new Marshall Plan should take that into consideration :)

EDUCATION
Online education - it opens a lot of possibilities to receive the best quality of online lectures. All children - even from poorest rural regions - could watch the same top level lectures. There would be a lot of competition among teachers in how to prepare and deliver a lecture. It is a golden opportunity for education - to turn everyday boring lessons to TED kind of thing, so that students could watch them whenever they needed.

FLEXIBLE WORK
Working from home / part time - some people may actually like it - to have more free time, to be able to organise their work time more like their leisure time, get rid of hierarchical nature persistent in some working cultures, etc.


HEALTH CARE SYSTEM
Cooperation among medical researchers - all new research on coronavirus is being put online immediately and free of charge - I think it must be exiting for researchers.
The countries need to think over the consequences of globalisation in terms of producing medical supplies. We just found out that if Chinese factories stop, or production chains are broken - all world is in trouble - no respirators, disposable gloves, etc etc.
Cooperation among medical practitioners - this is not really happening now, but there is a definite need for that. In future EUROPE may have something like NATO medical forces, that could be allocated to anywhere during a short span of time, to practically deal with emergency kind of situations.


FOOD
Changes in the food market. I don't know much about it - with the crisis people switch to simpler local foods, reduce consumption of exclusive/expensive stuff like fresh meats and fish (even Italians), which may have some positive side to it. Eating more local simple food may be actually good for many of us.

ENVIRONMENT
Reduction of pollution - if many people start working less / from home / think more carefully before travelling because of coronavirus that could help to reduce CO2 emissions and improve air quality.


POLITICIANS
There is a need for honest and fair politicians who are driven by moral values, rather than put their narrow interest first. Besides, we need competent and talented people and effective leadership. I just could not listen to the first LT emergency meeting with such boring mediocre bureaucrats speaking - it is so sad when talented people do not reach the power, however ruling elites are made up of people who's lust for power is so great, but who's ego are much bigger than their capabilities. Overall, a good person should avoid going to the Parliament, because it is full of selfish mean people, intrigues, power games, etc. A typical bureaucrat is a "grey" mediocre person, who feels helpless against the system and just follows the trend even if they themselves as human beings do not agree with the decisions they have to implement.

In case of emergency, people can get really angry with the politicians, because their incompetence becomes so obvious - and it is tragic when populistic behaviour/incompetence leads to actual deaths. All typical party fights (using coronavirus issues for their party benefit) seems to be so absolutely intolerable now.

Overall, what is needed is politics which are driven by moral values rather than interests for generating more income/power. I mean, being efficient matters too, however, what kind of EU/EC do we have if they have the resources, but cannot take actions when really needed? Will we in the EU just watch how people are suffering and passing away in Italian and Spanish hospitals, while other countries have the resources, but don't do anything significant to help? It is a real crisis of values of the Western World.

On a global level, the USA has the economic power to be a world leader, but the leadership driven by interests (for income) is no good. I heard one philosopher on BBC Four say, why would the world follow the US if it's leader says America first... What is really sad, that even within the US, the political elites often choose - as it seems - markets over human lives. The system is slow and inefficient when taking actions... Overall, we all should learn from Singapore, South Korea, and Taiwan, they managed to deal with the situation well.

Dagne
28-03-20, 21:24
You're a sound thinker, Dagne, and more important, a good person.

The world would be a better place with more people like you.

Thanks Angela :smile:

Maciamo
29-03-20, 13:59
I second what Angela said about you, Dagne. :)

Once again I completely concur with what you wrote about what the new Marshall Plan should take that into consideration.

bigsnake49
29-03-20, 17:54
I totally agree with your suggestions Dagne. We need to rethink globalization and dependency on China. It takes a lot of energy to get those products from China to their destinations and it leaves vulnerable to disruptions. Locally gown foods, we definitely need to do that. There is no reason for my broccoli to come from California 2500 miles away. There are plenty of cows and chickens in Florida, we don't need them to come from Arkansas. Florida should not pave its farms for retirement subdivisions.

Yetos
29-03-20, 22:56
@ dagne

neither me, neither you took factory's from Europe and send them to china,

Dagne
30-03-20, 08:07
I second what Angela said about you, Dagne. :)

Once again I completely concur with what you wrote about what the new Marshall Plan should take that into consideration.
:smile:
Let's hope there are more people among the EU decisions makes who have similar thoughts.

Dagne
30-03-20, 08:30
@ dagne

neither me, neither you took factory's from Europe and send them to china,



Moving factories just for profit reasons where labour force is cheap and could be treated badly (like in China) is bad. It is the same old story then corporations want to maximise their profit at the expense of others - either people's health (food industry), environment (cheap consumer production oversees), quality, and now - as we can see - health care system's security.

On the other hand, strategic coordinated division of expertise could be good - the whole issue of globalisation in different sectors should be carefully analysed.

For instance, sharing information, having open digital sources, internet search engines, youtube - these are such great opportunities that we have - for learning languages, seeing films, art, science - anything, posting information online - like do we do here on Eupedia - this is all great.
For instance, I can't wait until greedy banks are replaced by cheap blockchain solutions in Lithuania.

Yetos
30-03-20, 13:07
yes dagne,

before 25 years all Europe had Swedish (EU made) Erickson and Finish (EU made) Nokia
at the end, Today Nokia is made in India, and Erickson ended to SONY.
Smart phones brought Apple and iPhone in the begin,
Half Europeans have iPhone today, which is made in China,
we made China, and now we curse them,

bicicleur
30-03-20, 14:11
yes dagne,

before 25 years all Europe had Swedish (EU made) Erickson and Finish (EU made) Nokia
at the end, Today Nokia is made in India, and Erickson ended to SONY.
Smart phones brought Apple and iPhone in the begin,
Half Europeans have iPhone today, which is made in China,
we made China, and now we curse them,

for 10 years consumers took the benefit of this
now they are faced with some downsides

it is not all black and white either
2 years ago Belgian politicians blocked the takeover of the Belgian elctricity grid by Chinese investors because they would take 'all the know how'
as if the Chinese don't know how to manage their own electricity grid yet
the truth is that the Belgian electricity grid has a monopoly and many politicians have very lucrative seats in the board of the electricity distribution companies

sometimes our own politicians are as corrupt as the Chinese

Maciamo
30-03-20, 15:59
Smart phones brought Apple and iPhone in the begin,
Half Europeans have iPhone today, which is made in China,
we made China, and now we curse them,

Actually iPhone's market share (https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/europe/) is only 27% in Europe, against 72% for Android. Apple's best market in Europe are the UK, Ireland and Norway.

Dagne
30-03-20, 16:27
In this situation when everything is made in China we need

1) free and open China where Chinese workers are protected similarly like in Europeans (the current trend of 996 working hour systems really overuses people) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/996_working_hour_system)

2) reduce radically our own consumerism and ban the use of unethically made products

As a result everything made in China will become more expensive, but that's good if we wanted to reduce consumerism and move the production of strategically important goods out of China.

In any case, if Europe wants to be safe and act ethically, people have to make sacrifices in terms of their usual lifestyles (in terms food, fashion - clothing, gadgets, etc)

Dagne
30-03-20, 16:58
The current economic model is rather faulty - somehow everyone believes that growth is good and recession is bad.

However, all this increase in practical terms is not always good. Growth with regard to some developments may be very good, however majority of GDP growth, like in China, is about massive expansion/production of goods that will be replaced due to fashion or disposed otherwise.

I somehow hope that his corona crisis can break the spine of this "overuse" - "overconsume" model.

Perhaps China awakens - in terms of going back to its culture, developing spiritually, instead of just being CCP lead global factory for everything.

bicicleur
30-03-20, 19:20
China is not a case on it's own.
Do you have any idea how many people around the world are desperate just to make a living for themselves and their family?
All those employed in Europe and complaining about their job are obviously not. They have no clue. They see only their own small world.

Northener
31-03-20, 14:02
I guess the Dutch are getting a 'calvinistic scroodge' image by now.
IMO it's important to show solidarity within the EU especial in these times. That's besides humanitarian also in the economic self intrest of the Dutch.
The questions stays how fare reaching this must be. That's a legitimate question.
But I don't follow the people that are mostly 'right wing' and follow the lesson of Friedman c.s....reduce the public debt!! .The Dutch government has followed this lesson to the max. And now some of those same 'right wingers' are blaming the Dutch government for it....?

Dagne
31-03-20, 15:53
Coronavirus epidemic is an emergency situation similar to a war. I don't think economic reasoning under business as usual light can be used in situations like this. Even Friedman himself would agree to this.

it would be possible to successfully fight against the enemy by joining the forces, because enemy attacks the countries one by one - basically help is needed during the peak periods, when the health care system is overloaded. I think doctors from different countries would be willing to go on such missions, especially if it were organised on voluntarily basis, providing staff with serious bonuses. The leadership in initiating and organising such missions is missing.

I even looked at the website page of "Doctors Without Borders" if they were doing something in the line. But no.

Dagne
31-03-20, 16:12
European Commission's measures include:

Ensure the adequate supply of protective equipment and medical supplies across Europe;
Cushion the blow for people’s livelihoods and the economy by applying full flexibility of EU fiscal rules;
Set up a EUR 37 billion Coronavirus Response Investment Initiative to provide liquidity to small businesses and the health care sector.
Provide a coherent set of guidelines to Member States on border measures to protect citizens’ health while allowing the free flow of essential goods
Restrict temporarily non-essential travel to the European Union


To my mind it is too little. Of course, better than nothing, but why not to organise actual medical teams, when they are really needed in Spain/Italy now, and perhaps other countries, within a month or so, too. Besides, joint research team could also do better in modelling the situation in different countries. National medical associations, epidemiologists could indicate the kind of practical help needed as well as overarching horizontal cooperation.

Some countries, perhaps, will do fine, because they were initially less connected or put the quarantine measures soon enough. Sweden is a special case - they think their people can keep the distancing without too much restrictions on economy and schooling. Scientifically, it would be very interesting to collect the data and compare developments in different countries so that best containment measures could be developed for the future. There is a lot of space for action for the EU.

Northener
31-03-20, 17:01
Coronavirus epidemic is an emergency situation similar to a war. I don't think economic reasoning under business as usual light can be used in situations like this. Even Friedman himself would agree to this.it would be possible to successfully fight against the enemy by joining the forces, because enemy attacks the countries one by one - basically help is needed during the peak periods, when the health care system is overloaded. I think doctors from different countries would be willing to go on such missions, especially if it were organised on voluntarily basis, providing staff with serious bonuses. The leadership in initiating and organising such mission is missing.I even looked at the website page of "Doctors Without Borders" if they were doing something in the line. But no.Yes indeed in such situations as said within the EU we must show solidarity. Here on Eupedia I stated that we must join forces to get the serum etc etc. Nevertheless as we are confronted with years of sclerosis.... EU skeptics prevailed.....you can't blame the EU as such to not take enough actions.
The nations are first at stake now. And all are facing isn some sense the same but also other kind of problems. And I see that within limits there is solidarity. Dutch people are going to IC in Germany. We come near ic system overload. That's first of all national responsibility. We can't export all our 'problems' to the Germans!
A situation with flying borderless doctors is a nice ideal, but may it's may soberness we have to deal with the situation that is right in our face! And our leaders have to stand up as well and homely they jump across their own shadow. But they stay humans Dagne....all imperfect.

ΠΑΝΑΞ
02-04-20, 18:17
The good news : We all worry this time. Many goverments (and people) speak about war now, but they dont respond as such, -Or maybe they do?
It will be interesting since the global scientific institutes, laboratories and companies of a lot of different sectors, struggle imtensive for the medicine, the tests and the medical supplies. That not only is prommising as a hope , but it is the first step to move on. (-Roger...)


A lot of this " Marshall Plan" will be judged up on this field. -Will be the companies coorporate; or an unethical antagonism will prevail?
For the moment is quite reliefing that at least from the academic community there is relativelly agreement, until now I believe.
I expect and wish the same for the goverment and companies allthough occasionally they blur their role...
Goverments should be goverments and Business should be bussiness. A good businessman is not necessary a man of politics, and vice versa.
For the case of the bad-men, usually... They condemned to lost in deep oblivion from the history of co-existence (the lucky ones). Or their names are
synonymous to recall us the remembrance of a "Chimp" that shouts inside us.(humans).

The "Marshall plan" should be THE strategic plan. Which our strategy first will and must be the recovery (sic) of the public health.
That's what the urgent situation demands.

ΠΑΝΑΞ
02-04-20, 18:19
The bad news; At the moment we haven;t got enough masks to hide our hypocrisy.


I am afraid this time Nemesis will follow.

torzio
02-04-20, 18:57
In this situation when everything is made in China we need

1) free and open China where Chinese workers are protected similarly like in Europeans (the current trend of 996 working hour systems really overuses people) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/996_working_hour_system)

2) reduce radically our own consumerism and ban the use of unethically made products

As a result everything made in China will become more expensive, but that's good if we wanted to reduce consumerism and move the production of strategically important goods out of China.

In any case, if Europe wants to be safe and act ethically, people have to make sacrifices in terms of their usual lifestyles (in terms food, fashion - clothing, gadgets, etc)

The world wide populace strikes 20 plus years ago in very many nations to stop Globalization have proven to be correct......when a nation fails to produce anything it is heading into a "slave" nation ...........a nation too reliant on another

Angela
02-04-20, 19:10
"Coronavirus could be the final straw for the EU"

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/01/coronavirus-could-be-final-straw-for-eu-european-experts-warn?CMP=share_btn_tw (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/01/coronavirus-could-be-final-straw-for-eu-european-experts-warn?CMP=share_btn_tw)

Too late; you heard it here first. :)

ΠΑΝΑΞ
02-04-20, 19:54
I guess the Dutch are getting a 'calvinistic scroodge' image by now.
IMO it's important to show solidarity within the EU especial in these times. That's besides humanitarian also in the economic self intrest of the Dutch.
The questions stays how fare reaching this must be. That's a legitimate question.
But I don't follow the people that are mostly 'right wing' and follow the lesson of Friedman c.s....reduce the public debt!! .The Dutch government has followed this lesson to the max. And now some of those same 'right wingers' are blaming the Dutch government for it....?

Thank's for that. In turbulant times it seems everything lost their meaning. It is not surprize me, that actually it is no clear anymore what ιs Left
and what is Right. That is a great indication that something is on crisis...
I believe that Europe struggle to find a balance between the british empirism, the french rationalism and the german idealism, as someone said.
At this moments, I personally have only trust, the greek doctors, medics personnel... and God help us, because Allah ran out of "pilaf".


The "identistits; (spell it right;) kinda alike political movement, which seem very upgraded at many countries, are at the top of hypocrisity level.
The faulse and utopic option of a wrong patriotism...

ΠΑΝΑΞ
02-04-20, 19:59
The world wide populace strikes 20 plus years ago in very many nations to stop Globalization have proven to be correct......when a nation fails to produce anything it is heading into a "slave" nation ...........a nation too reliant on another

The interesting is that both right and left, (except radicals) embrace the possible profits of globalization...
I think that globalization is a process indepedent of any political will. So, none to blame about anything, especially nations.
That;s how the story goes.

We have to get over this soon, we have critical issues to confront with. If we have quick respond to that , we better respond to the next challenges.
We just happen to be here the same time.
This time will not be forever.
Consider all, as brothers of "time,"-we have more in common than we have with the past people of our possible heritage.
We have to act global up on certain issues, and now.

Coronacrisis is a milestone of our evolution

(I dont critisize against or judge your opinion)

ΠΑΝΑΞ
02-04-20, 20:10
Yesterday I read an article which announced the -supposed, putative and fake- will of Merkell to support with a pack of trillion of Euros.
Of course it was April's fools day... but it is also indicative how cynical sometimes life is.


I have the sense that civilization among others is:
When people have a -relatively- common ground for terms and meanings, for "price," "values" and "goods'.
This is a safe indication that things might go well. If not, usually all the econo/social schemes and constructs collapse.
That things can happen even to the best families... literally


Money is a crisis birthchild, and...
Today is second of April.

Yetos
02-04-20, 21:29
Coronacrisis is a milestone of our evolution



it does what the Barbarrians can not do?
or play with our weakness?

Justinian plaque,
Athenean λοιμος
etc etc