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Maciamo
24-04-20, 16:16
I was wondering if anyone had checked the SNPs of Iron Age Italian samples from Antonio et al. 2019 for things like hair colour, eye colour, skin pigmentation, body height, lactose tolerance, etc. ?

I have the BAM files, but they are huge (over 2 GB each) and not easy to handle. Did anyone upload them for analysis or check the relevant individual SNPs? That would be interesting.

Jovialis
24-04-20, 16:29
Salento had uploaded a few of them to yourdnaportal.com which gives insights into phenotypic traits, like pigmentation, hair and eye color:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/38716-Your-Traits-yourdnaportal-com/page5?p=597231&viewfull=1#post597231
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/38716-Your-Traits-yourdnaportal-com/page5?p=593475&viewfull=1#post593475
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/38716-Your-Traits-yourdnaportal-com/page5?p=597230&viewfull=1#post597230

Maciamo
24-04-20, 20:15
Thanks! I am going to summarise some traits here.

R1 (Protovillanovan from Martinsicuro- 930-839 BCE)

Eye colour : blue
Hair colour : dark
Hair type : straight
Skin colour : light
Height : average
Lactose : intolerant

R1015 (Villanovan from Veio Grotta Gramiccia - 900-800 BCE)

Eye colour : blue
Hair colour : fair?
Hair type : straight?
Skin colour : light
Height : average
Lactose : intolerant

R1016 (Latin from Castel di Decima - 900-700 BCE - R1b-Z2103)

Hair colour : dark

R1021 (Latin from Boville Ernica - 700-600 BCE - R1b-L51>Z2118)

Eye colour : blue
Hair colour : fair?
Hair type : straight?
Skin colour : light
Lactose : intolerant

R850 (Greek-like Latin from Ardea - 650 BCE - T1a)

Eye colour : brown
Hair colour : dark
Hair type : straight
Skin colour : light
Lactose : intolerant

R851 (Latin from Ardea - 800-500 BCE - R1b-U152>L2>F29470)

Eye colour : blue
Hair colour : brown
Hair type : straight
Skin colour : light


R473 (Etruscan from Civitavecchia - 700-600 BCE)

Eye colour : light brown?
Hair colour : brown
Hair type : curly
Skin colour : light
Height : average
Lactose : intolerant

R474 (Etruscan from Civitavecchia - 700-600 BCE - J2b2a-CTS6190)

Eye colour : brown
Hair colour : dark
Hair type : curly
Skin colour : light
Height : average
Lactose : intolerant

R475 (Etruscan from Civitavecchia - 700-600 BCE)

Eye colour : brown
Hair colour : light brown
Hair type : wavy
Height : slightly taller
Lactose : intolerant


R435 (Latin from Praeneste - 600-200 BCE - R1b-U152>Z56>CTS6389)

Hair colour : dark
Hair type : straight
Skin colour : light

R437 (South Italian-like Latin from Praeneste - 400-200 BCE - R1b-U152>L2>PR3565)

Eye colour : brown
Hair colour : light brown
Hair type : straight
Skin colour : light
Height : average
Lactose : intolerant


SNPs are not always available for all traits. Nevertheless what we see from these few samples is that only the 3 Etruscans had curly or wavy hair, while all the Villanovans and Latins had straight hair. Blue eyes is dominant among Latins. Fair hair might be present in one Villanovan and one Latin, while lighter than average brown hair is likely in two Etruscans. All samples are lactose intolerant.

Jovialis
24-04-20, 20:40
I uploaded other Ardea Latin, R851 to yourdnaportal.com, here are the traits:

https://i.imgur.com/tgc9Yl7.png

torzio
24-04-20, 20:51
Thanks! I am going to summarise some traits here.
R1 (Protovillanovan - 930-839 BCE)
Eye colour : blue
Hair colour : dark
Hair type : straight
Skin colour : light
Height : average
Lactose : intolerant
R850 (Greek-like Latin from Ardea - 650 BCE)
Eye colour : brown
Hair colour : dark
Hair type : straight
Skin colour : light
Lactose : intolerant
R437 (South Italian-like Latin from Praeneste - 400-200 BCE)
Eye colour : brown
Hair colour : light brown
Hair type : straight
Skin colour : light
Height : average
Lactose : intolerant


thank you

further info on R1


R1
mtDNA: U5a2b

Born in Nis, Liburnia ( modern north Croatia )
Died in North Picene lands ( modern Marche region, Italy )

Some authors say she was a slave ...........but she lived to 91 ...............so I am unsure

her skeleton was found here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martinsicuro


(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martinsicuro)The sample clusters close to the Early Iron Age sample from Jazinka (ca. 780 BC), from the central Dalmatian onomastic region, on the east Adriatic coast opposite to Abruzzo, possibly related to the south-east Dalmatian (or Illyrian proper (https://indo-european.info/indo-european-uralic/4_15_Illyrian-.htm)) onomastic region to the south. However, there is no clear boundary between hydrotoponymic regions for the Bronze Age, and it is quite close to the (possibly Venetic-related) Liburnian onomastic region to the north, so the accounts of Martinsicuro belonging to the Liburni in proto-historical times can probably be extrapolated to the Final Bronze Age.
NOTE. Based on feminine endings in -ona in the few available anthroponyms, Liburnian may have shared similarities with personal names of the Noricum province, which doesn’t seem to be related to the more recent (Celtic- or Germanic-related?) Noric language.


https://i.postimg.cc/jdmSR9Y3/martin.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martinsicuro)

torzio
24-04-20, 21:06
On R850

I once read he came via Ardea in Lazio region ( a Etruscan outpost/colony ) from Etruscan lands....but originated in either Crete or Cyprus ( coming to etruria via etruscan trading ships )
there are many papers on this , especially Ardea , Etruscan town

Ardea had only one ethnic people....the Rutuli

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rutuli


Italian scholars still cling to this 2013 works

https://i.postimg.cc/XJfC5W4v/villano.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rutuli)

Jovialis
24-04-20, 21:17
Here is the other Palestrina Latin R435 (@Maciamo, R437 is also from Palestrina, the designation Pareneste is a mistake originally made by MTA):

https://imgur.com/rVf4R88 (https://i.imgur.com/rVf4R88.png)

Jovialis
24-04-20, 21:32
R473 Etruscan Civitavecchia

https://i.imgur.com/g4aanVm.jpg (https://imgur.com/JVio1uA)

Salento
24-04-20, 22:01
I was wondering if anyone had checked the SNPs of Iron Age Italian samples from Antonio et al. 2019 for things like hair colour, eye colour, skin pigmentation, body height, lactose tolerance, etc. ?

I have the BAM files, but they are huge (over 2 GB each) and not easy to handle. Did anyone upload them for analysis or check the relevant individual SNPs? That would be interesting.

Roman Iron Age zip files in AncestryDNA’s format + ...

Credit to Jovialis :)


Here are the Iron Age samples from Ancient Rome: A genetic crossroads of Europe and the Mediterranean (https://science.sciencemag.org/content/366/6466/708)

I used WGS extract to "convert" the files from BAM to usable raw data, in WGS combined, as well as AncestryDNA format:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/hzqdryr37t7s0cm/Antonio_M._et_al_2019_-_Iron_Age_Samples.zip/file
(http://www.mediafire.com/file/hzqdryr37t7s0cm/Antonio_M._et_al_2019_-_Iron_Age_Samples.zip/file)
These files do not work on Gedmatch, they get status Percent HTZ out of range

But they do work on Admixture Studio (http://dnagenics.com/admixture-studio/).

Enjoy!

Jovialis
24-04-20, 23:04
Here are all of the Iron Age Latin and Etruscan samples:

R1 (https://i.imgur.com/f4Nq8qh.gif)
R435 (https://i.imgur.com/KJdwpRF.png)
R437 (https://i.imgur.com/8cATluJ.gif)
R850 (https://i.imgur.com/e0LPIGX.gif)
R851 (https://i.imgur.com/RL9Aymy.png)
R473 (https://i.imgur.com/ZYrxHBT.jpg)
R474 (https://i.imgur.com/PtL07ft.png)
R475 (https://i.imgur.com/j4hgqIW.jpg)
R1015 (https://i.imgur.com/t3pRmjK.png)
R1016 (https://i.imgur.com/KOiru6B.png)
R1021 (https://i.imgur.com/2ZWuYsR.png)

torzio
24-04-20, 23:16
Are we sure the site knows what the sample is in regards to Hair and eye colour ?


R1 ...............blonde hair and blue eyes (https://i.imgur.com/f4Nq8qh.gif)
R435.......... (https://i.imgur.com/KJdwpRF.png)..........blonde hair and blue eyes (https://i.imgur.com/f4Nq8qh.gif)
R437.................blonde hair and brown eyes (https://i.imgur.com/8cATluJ.gif)
R850 (https://i.imgur.com/e0LPIGX.gif)..............blonde hair and brown eyes (https://i.imgur.com/8cATluJ.gif)
R851 (https://i.imgur.com/RL9Aymy.png)..............blonde hair and brown eyes (https://i.imgur.com/8cATluJ.gif)
R473 (https://i.imgur.com/ZYrxHBT.jpg)
R474 (https://i.imgur.com/PtL07ft.png)
R475 (https://i.imgur.com/j4hgqIW.jpg)
R1015 (https://i.imgur.com/t3pRmjK.png)
R1016 (https://i.imgur.com/KOiru6B.png)
R1021 (https://i.imgur.com/2ZWuYsR.png)

Jovialis
24-04-20, 23:31
Are we sure the site knows what the sample is in regards to Hair and eye colour ?


R1 ...............blonde hair and blue eyes (https://i.imgur.com/f4Nq8qh.gif)
R435.......... (https://i.imgur.com/KJdwpRF.png)..........blonde hair and blue eyes (https://i.imgur.com/f4Nq8qh.gif)
R437.................blonde hair and brown eyes (https://i.imgur.com/8cATluJ.gif)
R850 (https://i.imgur.com/e0LPIGX.gif)..............blonde hair and brown eyes (https://i.imgur.com/8cATluJ.gif)
R851 (https://i.imgur.com/RL9Aymy.png)..............blonde hair and brown eyes (https://i.imgur.com/8cATluJ.gif)
R473 (https://i.imgur.com/ZYrxHBT.jpg)
R474 (https://i.imgur.com/PtL07ft.png)
R475 (https://i.imgur.com/j4hgqIW.jpg)
R1015 (https://i.imgur.com/t3pRmjK.png)
R1016 (https://i.imgur.com/KOiru6B.png)
R1021 (https://i.imgur.com/2ZWuYsR.png)

They have some variants for blonde hair, but also some for dark. I myself have 1 of 3 for blonde hair that they test for.
(https://i.imgur.com/n8iJuOh.jpg)

Angela
24-04-20, 23:59
On R850

I once read he came via Ardea in Lazio region ( a Etruscan outpost/colony ) from Etruscan lands....but originated in either Crete or Cyprus ( coming to etruria via etruscan trading ships )
there are many papers on this , especially Ardea , Etruscan town

Ardea had only one ethnic people....the Rutuli

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rutuli


Italian scholars still cling to this 2013 works

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rutuli)https://i.postimg.cc/XJfC5W4v/villano.png (https://postimg.cc/9Rf03v43)


No one has any clue "where" he got his ancestry.

Angela
25-04-20, 00:02
I think Maciamo's summary is pretty close to accurate. You can't go by one allele. It's the combination that counts.

If there were enough alleles they could be run through the latest forensic calculators and that would get us the closest to the reality.

One thing that makes sense is a paper I saw a few years ago about the very large percentage of Italians who carry one "blue eye" gene, in addition to those who actually have light colored eyes.

Duarte
25-04-20, 01:25
Are we sure the site knows what the sample is in regards to Hair and eye colour ?


R1 ...............blonde hair and blue eyes (https://i.imgur.com/f4Nq8qh.gif)
R435.......... (https://i.imgur.com/KJdwpRF.png)..........blonde hair and blue eyes (https://i.imgur.com/f4Nq8qh.gif)
R437.................blonde hair and brown eyes (https://i.imgur.com/8cATluJ.gif)
R850 (https://i.imgur.com/e0LPIGX.gif)..............blonde hair and brown eyes (https://i.imgur.com/8cATluJ.gif)
R851 (https://i.imgur.com/RL9Aymy.png)..............blonde hair and brown eyes (https://i.imgur.com/8cATluJ.gif)
R473 (https://i.imgur.com/ZYrxHBT.jpg)
R474 (https://i.imgur.com/PtL07ft.png)
R475 (https://i.imgur.com/j4hgqIW.jpg)
R1015 (https://i.imgur.com/t3pRmjK.png)
R1016 (https://i.imgur.com/KOiru6B.png)
R1021 (https://i.imgur.com/2ZWuYsR.png)

Hello @torzio. How are you my dear friend.
I believe that yourDNAportal's predictions are, mostly, reliable, at least in my specific case. Until I was 6 years old I was a child with blond hair. Gradually my hair was darkening over time. Perhaps due to the action of hormones and environmental factors combined, I can not say for sure, although I believe that people with blond hair do not have, necessarily, to be have blue or green eyes. In Brazil it is quite common to see blond people (natural) with brown eyes. The converse is also true, at least in the region of the country where I live. All right that we are a very miscegenated people, which is a great truth, and that such miscegenation was not common in the times when these ancient individuals lived.
As this topic deals with the phenotypic issue of old samples and considering that 'yourDNAportal' is being used as the standard platform to determine the phenotype of old samples from the uploading of VCF files containing the SNPs of these samples, I post below the results that I obtained, both in the free version (which has been used by @Jovialis and @Salento), as in the paid version, the last one containing features that were unlocked by disbursing a specific amount. The objective is to give credibility to the experiment, in an attempt to demonstrate the accuracy of the results obtained.


yourDNAportal paying USD 8.00 for unlock:


yourDNAportal - All my genetic markers for longevity, youthfulness, skin health and physical appearance. I payed USD 8.00 for unlock.

https://i.imgur.com/H5KlfMv.jpg

YourDNAportal for free:

https://i.imgur.com/CVK9ndW.png
https://i.imgur.com/xkt4CIu.png

My Phenotype:

https://i.imgur.com/dGQKDOy.jpg

torzio
25-04-20, 02:28
Hello @torzio. How are you my dear friend.
I believe that yourDNAportal's predictions are, mostly, reliable, at least in my specific case. Until I was 6 years old I was a child with blond hair. Gradually my hair was darkening over time. Perhaps due to the action of hormones and environmental factors combined, I can not say for sure, although I believe that people with blond hair do not have, necessarily, to be have blue or green eyes. In Brazil it is quite common to see blond people (natural) with brown eyes. The converse is also true, at least in the region of the country where I live. All right that we are a very miscegenated people, which is a great truth, and that such miscegenation was not common in the times when these ancient individuals lived.
As this topic deals with the phenotypic issue of old samples and considering that 'yourDNAportal' is being used as the standard platform to determine the phenotype of old samples from the uploading of VCF files containing the SNPs of these samples, I post below the results that I obtained, both in the free version (which has been used by @Jovialis and @Salento), as in the paid version, the last one containing features that were unlocked by disbursing a specific amount. The objective is to give credibility to the experiment, in an attempt to demonstrate the accuracy of the results obtained.


yourDNAportal paying USD 8.00 for unlock:



https://i.imgur.com/dGQKDOy.jpg

I agree with yourself

I was born blond and by 5 i had mid brown hair ...............I was also born with green eyes and have still got green eyes
one of my sons born blond hair and blue eyes ...............3 decades later he has brown hair and blue eyes
one my grandson , born blond with blue eyes ........he is 2 and a half years old and he is now starting to turn from blonde to brown hair, eyes still blue

my father , born with black hair and green eyes ...............never changed
my grandfather born blond with green eyes.............military records shows , chestnut hair ( has red in it ) and green eyes


Morale of the story ...........Lets ignore hair colour and stick only to eye colour as it is set at 6 months after birth and does not change

Jovialis
25-04-20, 04:36
I agree with yourself

I was born blond and by 5 i had mid brown hair ...............I was also born with green eyes and have still got green eyes
one of my sons born blond hair and blue eyes ...............3 decades later he has brown hair and blue eyes
one my grandson , born blond with blue eyes ........he is 2 and a half years old and he is now starting to turn from blonde to brown hair, eyes still blue

my father , born with black hair and green eyes ...............never changed
my grandfather born blond with green eyes.............military records shows , chestnut hair ( has red in it ) and green eyes


Morale of the story ...........Lets ignore hair colour and stick only to eye colour as it is set at 6 months after birth and does not change

My hair color seems to have changed since my early 20s. It was lighter then, but perhaps because it was longer.

Maciamo
25-04-20, 11:20
Here is the other Palestrina Latin R435 (@Maciamo, R437 is also from Palestrina, the designation Pareneste is a mistake originally made by MTA):

Actually Praeneste is the Latin name of Palestrina. I prefer to use the ancient name. ;)

Jovialis
25-04-20, 14:38
Actually Praeneste is the Latin name of Palestrina. I prefer to use the ancient name. ;)

Thanks for the clarification!

Jovialis
25-04-20, 14:48
Thanks! I am going to summarise some traits here.

R1 (Protovillanovan from Martinsicuro- 930-839 BCE)

Eye colour : blue
Hair colour : dark
Hair type : straight
Skin colour : light
Height : average
Lactose : intolerant

R1015 (Villanovan from Veio Grotta Gramiccia - 900-800 BCE)

Eye colour : blue
Hair colour : fair?
Hair type : straight?
Skin colour : light
Height : average
Lactose : intolerant

R1016 (Latin from Castel di Decima - 900-700 BCE - R1b-Z2103)

Hair colour : dark

R1021 (Latin from Boville Ernica - 700-600 BCE - R1b-L51>Z2118)

Eye colour : blue
Hair colour : fair?
Hair type : straight?
Skin colour : light
Lactose : intolerant

R850 (Greek-like Latin from Ardea - 650 BCE - T1a)

Eye colour : brown
Hair colour : dark
Hair type : straight
Skin colour : light
Lactose : intolerant

R851 (Latin from Ardea - 800-500 BCE - R1b-U152>L2>F29470)

Eye colour : blue
Hair colour : brown
Hair type : straight
Skin colour : light


R473 (Etruscan from Civitavecchia - 700-600 BCE)

Eye colour : light brown?
Hair colour : brown
Hair type : curly
Skin colour : light
Height : average
Lactose : intolerant

R474 (Etruscan from Civitavecchia - 700-600 BCE - J2b2a-CTS6190)

Eye colour : brown
Hair colour : dark
Hair type : curly
Skin colour : light
Height : average
Lactose : intolerant

R475 (Etruscan from Civitavecchia - 700-600 BCE)

Eye colour : brown
Hair colour : light brown
Hair type : wavy
Height : slightly taller
Lactose : intolerant


R435 (Latin from Praeneste - 600-200 BCE - R1b-U152>Z56>CTS6389)

Hair colour : dark
Hair type : straight
Skin colour : light

R437 (South Italian-like Latin from Praeneste - 400-200 BCE - R1b-U152>L2>PR3565)

Eye colour : brown
Hair colour : light brown
Hair type : straight
Skin colour : light
Height : average
Lactose : intolerant


SNPs are not always available for all traits. Nevertheless what we see from these few samples is that only the 3 Etruscans had curly or wavy hair, while all the Villanovans and Latins had straight hair. Blue eyes is dominant among Latins. Fair hair might be present in one Villanovan and one Latin, while lighter than average brown hair is likely in two Etruscans. All samples are lactose intolerant.

Excellent work,

I look like R437, except I'm above average in height (6 foot, 2 inches). I'm closest to him genetically as well, except I'm more "North-Eastern" shifted.

These are my traits (slightly different and more informative from the one I posted in the yourdnaportal thread (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/38716-Your-Traits-yourdnaportal-com), because I am using my Superkit, for this one) Jovialis-Traits (https://i.imgur.com/n8iJuOh.jpg)
https://i.imgur.com/tRBy8tf.png

real expert
25-04-20, 21:21
Well, this is another proof that the swarthiness of ancient and modern Italians is exaggerated. I debated several times people who claimed that Italians (ancient Romans) are not white but brown people. Etruscans are Africans according to many Afro-Americans because they depicted the males with a heavy tan in their paintings.

Jovialis
25-04-20, 21:25
Well, this is another proof that the swarthiness of ancient and modern Italians is exaggerated. I debated several times people who claimed that Italians (ancient Romans) are not white but brown people. Etruscans are Africans according to many Afro-Americans because they depicted the males with a heavy tan in their paintings.

Most people are morons who should eat from a trough.