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sojc
02-05-20, 14:41
Hi everybody. Hope covid lockdown has been a good time to get better at hobbies for some.

My father (born in northeast China and identifies as full Han Chinese) and I (born in Canada, with mother full Chinese) are E-V13 according to 23andme, and when I put our results in MorleyDNA's Y subgroup predictor it returned most likely CTS1273 for both of us. Prior we believed we were of full north-eastern Chinese ancestry. 23andme autosomal gives my dad some vague European results at 0.4%, and the furthest west for me was some tiny central Asian. I later did Ancestry (full Chinese/Korean results, nothing else) and livingDNA (1.8% Anatolian, 1.3% Northwestern European) for myself. My MtDNA haplogroup is A4, and my father's Mt group is G1a. My dad's ancestry was believed to be in the Shandong province of China for at least 2500 years, as my surname (Tian) were the Kings of the State of Qi until we had a war with the 1st Chinese emperor (we lost).

I am curious how E-V13 got so far east? No one in the family has much of a clue and up until the Communist revolution my dad's side were established landlords and nobility. My hunch would be either it was there for a very long time, a European silk-road trader brought it there in the last few hundred years, or somehow it trickled east from some Greek soldiers or Russian influence.

Anyone's thoughts/guesses/hunches would be very welcome.

Roland

sojc
02-05-20, 14:46
and sorry for the typos, 5am post after burning the midnight oil getting some projects done :P

Riverman
02-05-20, 16:03
It would be great if you could do a NGS test for your YDNA and get the terminal SNP, this could prove to be very interesting. Obviously there are many possible migration paths, if the results are correct, but the most likely one seems to be with Western steppe people, of which some assimilated at some point E-V13 clans, probably around the Carpathians. When these steppe people with additional European farmer ancestry moved back, with the Sintashta-Andronovo culture, they reached as far as Mongolia. The Scythians in particular seem to have had wide ranging contacts, so its also possible that a later Scythian gene flow from the Carpathian/South Russian region brought it. That's really a question of timing, when and where exactly it was brought to the East. But Indo-Iranians ("Aryans") is the most likely source in any case. Tocharian is less likely.

This ancient Iranian/Indo-Iranian element survived for quite long in the East, played an important role in varoius state formations and persisted even among the Xiongnu. These Indo-Europeans mixed with local East Asians, almost as soon as they arrived in the East. So probably you descent from the Pazyryk people paternally (?):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pazyryk_culture

A more detailed result with your terminal SNP could be very helpful in determining your exact branch and TMRCA with West Eurasians. Because its also possible that later migrants brought it. Like you say, a trader, diplomat, scholar or the like.

sojc
02-05-20, 22:41
It would be great if you could do a NGS test for your YDNA and get the terminal SNP, this could prove to be very interesting. Obviously there are many possible migration paths, if the results are correct, but the most likely one seems to be with Western steppe people, of which some assimilated at some point E-V13 clans, probably around the Carpathians. When these steppe people with additional European farmer ancestry moved back, with the Sintashta-Andronovo culture, they reached as far as Mongolia. The Scythians in particular seem to have had wide ranging contacts, so its also possible that a later Scythian gene flow from the Carpathian/South Russian region brought it. That's really a question of timing, when and where exactly it was brought to the East. But Indo-Iranians ("Aryans") is the most likely source in any case. Tocharian is less likely.

This ancient Iranian/Indo-Iranian element survived for quite long in the East, played an important role in varoius state formations and persisted even among the Xiongnu. These Indo-Europeans mixed with local East Asians, almost as soon as they arrived in the East. So probably you descent from the Pazyryk people paternally (?)

A more detailed result with your terminal SNP could be very helpful in determining your exact branch and TMRCA with West Eurasians. Because its also possible that later migrants brought it. Like you say, a trader, diplomat, scholar or the like.



Thank you for all the interesting information. In the future I plan to do one of those tests eventually. Is there a recommend company for best value terminal SNP tests? I know YSEQ does a E-V13 panel for $88 USD.

Riverman
02-05-20, 22:48
If you get your terminal SNP with less than 200 USD, its a good deal I'd say. I'm not up to date to which company offers the best deal right now. I can just tell you I paid more.
I would be very interested to know your result by the way, because I always wondered about the presence of V13 on the Central and Eastern steppe, also in North East Asia :good_job:

sojc
03-05-20, 01:48
Will certainly post when I do get it done. Would be very interested as well to see if there's a small E-V13 population in Shandong China through old migration, or if it was just recent :)

Aspurg
03-05-20, 03:28
Hi, interesting to hear of Chinese E-CTS1273, and for sure get some SNP profiling done, I doubt this is some recent link looking at these older links you mentioned. Although some recent link is ofc possible, I think a more ancient link is more likely. Could be some Scythian V13 clade. In any case your result might be of some importance for V13. ;)

sojc
03-05-20, 07:25
Just ordered the E-V13 subgroup panel from YSEQ, so I'll update the results hopefully in 1-3 months once it is available :)

If it's a very recent Euro subgroup I guess it indicates more likely recent arrival, if it's an older and more eastern subgroup it might be interesting to guess how far a population might have reached.

Progon
03-05-20, 16:38
Just ordered the E-V13 subgroup panel from YSEQ, so I'll update the results hopefully in 1-3 months once it is available :)

If it's a very recent Euro subgroup I guess it indicates more likely recent arrival, if it's an older and more eastern subgroup it might be interesting to guess how far a population might have reached.

Welcome to the E-V13 family.

kingjohn
03-05-20, 16:52
maybe a trader :smile:
left in one of his journeys https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Polo

Progon
03-05-20, 18:03
maybe a trader :smile:
left in one of his journeys https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Polo

Reading this, it might be true. j/k :P


Some old Venetian historical sources considered Polo's ancestors to be of far Dalmatian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatia) origin.

kuzmosi
03-05-20, 18:46
You are welcome, son of our 4500 years old father.

As Riverman and Aspurg said, I think too. Our CTS1273 father probably lived somewhere near the Carpathians and he was merged to a proto-indo european tribe. The horse and livestock herder tribes traversed a vast area. From the Danube river to the Amur river.

The YSEQ EV13 panel is the best choice. The YSEQ is fast, cheap and exact. I'm very curious with you final position on our family tree. Please will tell us the final SNP.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-CTS1273/

By the way, I have only hungarian and rusyn ancestors from the northeastern Carpathians, but according my 23andMe result, I have 0,3% manchurian-mongolian DNA as trace ancestry and my mother has 0,3% manchurian-mongolian DNA too.

sojc
03-05-20, 23:08
Welcome to the E-V13 family.

Thank you :)

sojc
03-05-20, 23:19
maybe a trader :smile:
left in one of his journeys

Lol, has been on my mind it was someone like him. Originally 23andMe gave my father and me both 0.4% Italian originally from a few hundred years ago
...but a recent update changed that to 0.2% British/Irish for him, and eliminated prediction of Europe from me :P

(Myheritage gives me some British and Finnish with my data, and Eurogenes k13 gave me some Baltic (not Balkans). The fact that 23andMe, LivingDNA, and MyHeritage all give some trace different European DNA for Me and my Father makes me only able to conclude there is some European and/or Anatolian, but can't say a country the E-V13 came from. The fact there is some trace European autosomal segments pushes me much more toward thinking it is probably more recent E-V13 from an adventurous trader like Marco Polo in China than a very ancient population haha.)

sojc
03-05-20, 23:30
You are welcome, son of our 4500 years old father.

As Riverman and Aspurg said, I think too. Our CTS1273 father probably lived somewhere near the Carpathians and he was merged to a proto-indo european tribe. The horse and livestock herder tribes traversed a vast area. From the Danube river to the Amur river.

The YSEQ EV13 panel is the best choice. The YSEQ is fast, cheap and exact. I'm very curious with you final position on our family tree. Please will tell us the final SNP.



By the way, I have only hungarian and rusyn ancestors from the northeastern Carpathians, but according my 23andMe result, I have 0,3% manchurian-mongolian DNA as trace ancestry and my mother has 0,3% manchurian-mongolian DNA too.


Thank you :)

I had heard that the ancestral peninsula between Beijing and Korea (present day Shandong province, former State of Qi) my dad's family name (Tian) historically used to rule 2200-2400 years ago was previously inhabited by caucasians (guess probably steppe people) before the Han population expanding from the west overtook it. Wonder if it was possible some of the previous Shandong people were E-V13, if Marco Polo didn't bring it :)

I'm awaiting the YSEQ E-V13 panel in the mail to arrive to me, and hopefully with Covid the results won't take too much longer than usual. I will certainly share the results here.

ThirdTerm
04-05-20, 03:28
Greek artists could have travelled to China 1,500 years before Marco Polo and they could have been training locals there in the Third Century BC. European DNA was discovered at sites in China’s Xinjiang province from the time of the First Emperor in the Third Century BC and these ancient Greeks may have introduced E-V13, which is a predominant paternal lineage in modern Greece. Ancient China suddenly became civilised around the time of the First Emperor who is best known for the Greek-inspired Terracotta Army.




Greek artists could have travelled to China 1,500 years before Marco Polo’s historic trip to the east and helped design the famous Terracotta Army, according to new research.

The startling claim is based on two key pieces of evidence: European DNA discovered at sites in China’s Xinjiang province from the time of the First Emperor in the Third Century BC and the sudden appearance of life-sized statues.

Before this time, depictions of humans in China are thought to have been figurines of up to about 20cm.

But 8,000 extraordinarily life-like terracotta figures were found buried close to the massive tomb of China’s First Emperor, Qin Shi Huang, who unified the country in 221BC.

The theory – outlined in a documentary, The Greatest Tomb on Earth: Secrets of Ancient China, to be shown on BBC Two on Sunday – is that Shi Huang and Chinese artists may have been influenced by the arrival of Greek statues in central Asia in the century following Alexander the Great, who led an army into India.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/china-terracotta-army-ancient-greek-sculptors-alexander-the-great-marco-polo-a7357606.html

sojc
04-05-20, 03:49
Greek artists could have travelled to China 1,500 years before Marco Polo and they could have been training locals there in the Third Century BC. European DNA was discovered at sites in China’s Xinjiang province from the time of the First Emperor in the Third Century BC and these ancient Greeks may have introduced E-V13, which is a predominant paternal lineage in modern Greece. Ancient China suddenly became civilised around the time of the First Emperor who is best known for the Greek-inspired Terracotta Army.


Lol, China did not suddenly become civilized or have a jump in technology with the 1st emperor (he was just the final winner at the end of hundreds of years of fighting in the Warring states period of China). The 1st Chinese dynasty (The Xia dynasty, who were classified as Kings rather than Emperors) started around 2100 BC back when the continental Greeks were still looked down upon by the Minoans as primitive, and 500 years before the Mycenaean Greek civilization started. The 2nd Dynasty (the Shang dynasty), which had advanced bronze working and writing started at 1600 BC around the same time as the Mycenaean Greeks.

I do agree though that there could have been much more than currently known Greek genetic and cultural influence in China since Alexander.

Archetype0ne
04-05-20, 15:14
Lol, China did not suddenly become civilized or have a jump in technology with the 1st emperor (he was just the final winner at the end of hundreds of years of fighting in the Warring states period of China). The 1st Chinese dynasty (The Xia dynasty, who were classified as Kings rather than Emperors) started around 2100 BC back when the continental Greeks were still looked down upon by the Minoans as primitive, and 500 years before the Mycenaean Greek civilization started. The 2nd Dynasty (the Shang dynasty), which had advanced bronze working and writing started at 1600 BC around the same time as the Mycenaean Greeks.

I do agree though that there could have been much more than currently known Greek genetic and cultural influence in China since Alexander.

Agree with your points mate. "Chinese" or more pedantically speaking proto-Chinese culture spans millennia, and it rivals if not surpasses any culture/s the west has to offer. I personally doubt the terracotta army has anything to do with classical Greece, despite the slight resemblance in style.

Riverman
04-05-20, 15:56
The real question being how Bronze, later Iron and chariots came to China. The relationship to Greece might be that the very same people from the steppe brought horses and chariots to the Mediterranean and East Asia, but that doesn't imply actual Greeks moving to the East of course. And even if they did, any genetic contribution, if at all, should have been extremely small in comparison to that of the steppe people.

The terracotta army is interesting as it depicts the different ethnicities which fought for the great emperor. And its among those warriors you find clear influences, especially in weaponry and clothing, from the steppe neighbours. These influences must have been far greater when these new tactics, tools and techniques were first introduced to China. On the cultural side its a clear cut thing, on the genetic it is not as much, even though Northern Chinese have West Eurasian and steppe ancestry. That's because the timing matters. When did this ancestry enter China for the most part? At the start of the horsemanship and/or Bronze technology in China, or with later immigrations from Scythians and Turks?
Only ancient DNA can make the difference, but modern yDNA shows how much of these old lineages survived where and which were involved.

sojc
05-05-20, 02:42
The real question being how Bronze, later Iron and chariots came to China. The relationship to Greece might be that the very same people from the steppe brought horses and chariots to the Mediterranean and East Asia, but that doesn't imply actual Greeks moving to the East of course. And even if they did, any genetic contribution, if at all, should have been extremely small in comparison to that of the steppe people.

The terracotta army is interesting as it depicts the different ethnicities which fought for the great emperor. And its among those warriors you find clear influences, especially in weaponry and clothing, from the steppe neighbours. These influences must have been far greater when these new tactics, tools and techniques were first introduced to China. On the cultural side its a clear cut thing, on the genetic it is not as much, even though Northern Chinese have West Eurasian and steppe ancestry. That's because the timing matters. When did this ancestry enter China for the most part? At the start of the horsemanship and/or Bronze technology in China, or with later immigrations from Scythians and Turks?
Only ancient DNA can make the difference, but modern yDNA shows how much of these old lineages survived where and which were involved.


I have heard from my parents that DNA ancestry testing is very recently becoming more and more popular on Chinese social media and wechat, unfortunately I don't speak Chinese so I can't read any of their results, so if any ancient steppe haplogroups populations still survive in areas it hopefully will become much more apparent in he next few years.

Riverman
05-05-20, 11:21
I have heard from my parents that DNA ancestry testing is very recently becoming more and more popular on Chinese social media and wechat, unfortunately I don't speak Chinese so I can't read any of their results, so if any ancient steppe haplogroups populations still survive in areas it hopefully will become much more apparent in he next few years.

They did survive, but it remains open to debate:
- Which other haplogroups than R1a were involved and to which extend are they still present in different regions of China
- When did they reach China, with which people (early Indo-Europeans, later Iranians like Scythians, with Turko-Mongol migrations or a mix of these?)

It might become possible to link specific Chinese clans or villages with these or that ancient people in the near future. I too would be very interested to know those results. Do you know what DNA testing companies they are using by the way?

sojc
05-05-20, 11:49
They did survive, but it remains open to debate:
- Which other haplogroups than R1a were involved and to which extend are they still present in different regions of China
- When did they reach China, with which people (early Indo-Europeans, later Iranians like Scythians, with Turko-Mongol migrations or a mix of these?)

It might become possible to link specific Chinese clans or villages with these or that ancient people in the near future. I too would be very interested to know those results. Do you know what DNA testing companies they are using by the way?


I know one of them is 'Wegene' https://www.wegene.com/en/ which supposedly has one of the best databases specifically for detailed ancestry of different Chinese regions, and allows you to upload other major DNA data for free (though might go to the Chinese government) for analysis from their database.

Other than that I don't know directly which platforms are most popular from people in China, but next time I skype with my parents I'll try to remember to ask them to ask their friends on wechat if any platforms are popular there, and I'll post it here.

Aaron1981
09-05-20, 04:39
Hi everybody. Hope covid lockdown has been a good time to get better at hobbies for some.

My father (born in northeast China and identifies as full Han Chinese) and I (born in Canada, with mother full Chinese) are E-V13 according to 23andme, and when I put our results in MorleyDNA's Y subgroup predictor it returned most likely CTS1273 for both of us. Prior we believed we were of full north-eastern Chinese ancestry. 23andme autosomal gives my dad some vague European results at 0.4%, and the furthest west for me was some tiny central Asian. I later did Ancestry (full Chinese/Korean results, nothing else) and livingDNA (1.8% Anatolian, 1.3% Northwestern European) for myself. My MtDNA haplogroup is A4, and my father's Mt group is G1a. My dad's ancestry was believed to be in the Shandong province of China for at least 2500 years, as my surname (Tian) were the Kings of the State of Qi until we had a war with the 1st Chinese emperor (we lost).

I am curious how E-V13 got so far east? No one in the family has much of a clue and up until the Communist revolution my dad's side were established landlords and nobility. My hunch would be either it was there for a very long time, a European silk-road trader brought it there in the last few hundred years, or somehow it trickled east from some Greek soldiers or Russian influence.

Anyone's thoughts/guesses/hunches would be very welcome.

Roland

It's definitely there, but distant. I've never heard of any full Han Chinese person getting any European on any test, so yes, its somewhere deep back in your father's family tree. E-V13 may have been spread among the Cardium pottery culture of southern Europe, or some wave of Neolithic Europeans from ancient Anatolia. It is found just about anywhere in Europe today, but arrived there from the South East no doubt. Congrats on your results, definitely a first that I've seen. EDIT: Actually, come to think of it, if your father shows 0.4% on 23andMe, it may only date to the 1700's sometime which could put it in the frame of Imperial Britain, who do carry E-V13 on occasion, albeit far more rarely than R1b. Greek and Silk road are far too ancient to show up on this test without some miracle in inheritance. Both mtDNAs seem to be irrelevant here, since they appear to be native to eastern Asia. The outlier is most definitely the direct paternal heritage, and with no disrespect, has definitely not been in Shandong for 2500 years, probably only 350 or so..

sojc
09-05-20, 09:59
It's definitely there, but distant. I've never heard of any full Han Chinese person getting any European on any test, so yes, its somewhere deep back in your father's family tree. E-V13 may have been spread among the Cardium pottery culture of southern Europe, or some wave of Neolithic Europeans from ancient Anatolia. It is found just about anywhere in Europe today, but arrived there from the South East no doubt. Congrats on your results, definitely a first that I've seen. EDIT: Actually, come to think of it, if your father shows 0.4% on 23andMe, it may only date to the 1700's sometime which could put it in the frame of Imperial Britain, who do carry E-V13 on occasion, albeit far more rarely than R1b. Greek and Silk road are far too ancient to show up on this test without some miracle in inheritance. Both mtDNAs seem to be irrelevant here, since they appear to be native to eastern Asia. The outlier is most definitely the direct paternal heritage, and with no disrespect, has definitely not been in Shandong for 2500 years, probably only 350 or so..

Yes amorous adventure is certainly high on the list of what could have happened :) Hopefully the E-V13 subgroup test on the way might shed some light, but would be much much easier to possibly track down if it were recent haha.

Also if it was recent I wouldn't put much stock into it being British, because 23andMe originally gave it as 0.4% Italian before an update a few months back. Other companies for my own DNA give tiny amount of different countries ranging from Western Turkey, Finland, Spain, Northwest Europe etc. All I can be certain of at this point is E-V13 and whatever the subgroup results will be once I get them.

Yetos
09-05-20, 13:00
It is not strange at all, but must be very rare,

Tayuan,
City of strong Iones,
Also the Serica Σηραι, at Xinjiang

Qian, the war for Heavenly Horses,
Han and Greco-Bactrians and Seleykides knew each other.
there is enough Hellenistic archaiology in China,

besides it can also be after that, the times of medieval silk trade,
of Doucas emperror, centuries before Marco Polo,
When Con\polis monopolize silk trade for West.

it can also be from kid adaptation of what we say Mongol empires,
they use to steal and adop kids and raise them,


Although very very rare, it is not surprising,

Riverman
09-05-20, 14:56
Northern Chinese have West Eurasian ancestry, that's not extraordinary and doesn't need to be explained by any sort of recent admixture. We are talking about whether it came in somewhere around 1300 BC, with chariots and horses, or up to early historical times with e.g. Scythians or Turks and their assimilated ancient Iranian ancestry.


Traditional sources attribute the invention of the chariot to the Xia dynasty (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xia_dynasty) minister Xi Zhong (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xi_Zhong),[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariots_in_ancient_China#cite_note-1)[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariots_in_ancient_China#cite_note-2)[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariots_in_ancient_China#cite_note-3) and say they were used at the Battle of Gan (甘之战) in the 21st century BCE. However archeological evidence shows that small scale use of the chariot began around 1200 BCE in the late Shang dynasty (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shang_dynasty).[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariots_in_ancient_China#cite_note-4)[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariots_in_ancient_China#cite_note-5)[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariots_in_ancient_China#cite_note-Woolf2007-6) This corroborates the material spread of the invention from the Eurasian Grass-Steppe to the West, by Proto-Indo-Europeans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans) (likely the Tocharians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tocharians)) who similarly have borne horse, agricultural, and honey making technologies through the Tarim Basin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarim_Basin) into China. Contemporary oracle bone inscriptions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_bone_inscription) of the character 車 depict a chariot-like two wheeled vehicle with a single pole for the attachment of horses.[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariots_in_ancient_China#cite_note-7)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariots_in_ancient_China

All recent genetic studies show minor West Eurasian ancestry for Northern Chinese which approximate steppe ancestry. That's not unusual, more exceptional is only the haplogroup, because the main haplogroup of the Eastern Indo-Europeans was R1b and especially R1a, which is the most widespread West Eurasian haplogroup in Northern China today.


A 2011 Y-dna study found that 10% of Northern Han Chinese from eastern Gansu and 8.9% of Northern Han from western Henan had the Y-dna R1a1.[95] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a#cite_note-Zhong2011-109) In a 2014 paper, R1a1a has been detected in 1.8% (2/110) of Chinese (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_people) samples. These two samples (R-M17, R-M198, R-M434, R-M458 for both) belonged to Han (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_Chinese) individuals from Fujian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fujian) and Shanxi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanxi) provinces.[96] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a#cite_note-FOOTNOTEYan2007-110)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a

Now check for R-M458 on YFull:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M458/

The question is not if Indo-European ancestry came to Northern China, the question is just when and how it did. That doesn't mean that some individual cases can't be more extraordinary, having more recent admixture from traders, soldiers and adventurers. But considering the data we have, the steppe transmitted gene flow is much more likely.

sojc
26-06-20, 19:34
So have some first preliminary results from YSEQ:

Quick results summary:
E1b-V13 Panel processing
Z5017 G-
Z5018 T+
S2979 processing
Z16659 processing

So it appears I am somewhere in the E-Z16659 branch... does anyone know much info about that branch?

Progon
26-06-20, 19:42
Maybe you can take a look here: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z16659/

I am S2979 too, we are quite widespread: :)

Riverman
26-06-20, 20:03
So far it seems you are proven to be positive for Z5018, downstream still processing. Z5018 is a very widespread and general European E-V13 branch. Let's see where you end up in detail. On Yfull there is no Chinese with the same haplotype so far, but that doesn't make it so special, because I know samples lacking from many places where there must be many thousands of carriers, yet none tested for Yfull so far.
Btw: I read about the huge efforts of the Chinese government to get more information about the genetics of its male citizens. If they use it for control, I hope they at least publish some scientific studies on the results too. Could be one of the most complete coverage of male genetic variation anywhere in the world done so far. Anything known so far?

ratchet_fan
26-06-20, 21:22
Thank you :)

I had heard that the ancestral peninsula between Beijing and Korea (present day Shandong province, former State of Qi) my dad's family name (Tian) historically used to rule 2200-2400 years ago was previously inhabited by caucasians (guess probably steppe people) before the Han population expanding from the west overtook it. Wonder if it was possible some of the previous Shandong people were E-V13, if Marco Polo didn't bring it :)

I'm awaiting the YSEQ E-V13 panel in the mail to arrive to me, and hopefully with Covid the results won't take too much longer than usual. I will certainly share the results here.

I don't think steppe people made that far in China. As far as I know they were mostly restricted to the Tarim Basin and the western portion of Gansu.

Philjames100
27-06-20, 15:54
I don't think steppe people made that far in China. As far as I know they were mostly restricted to the Tarim Basin and the western portion of Gansu.

There's a lot of evidence they went much further east than that.


“It is reasonable to presume that Andronovo influence extended as far as China. In the Anyang culture we find the momentous achievements of a world civilization - metallurgy, wheeled transport and horse-breeding-already in their developed form; the Yellow river displays no preceding development […] the formation of Chinese civilization was stimulated by a western impulse. In the Eurasian steppes metallurgy, wheeled transport and horse-breeding go back to the 4th millennium BC, while the types of celts, spears and single-edged knives of Anyang find their prototypes and analogies in the Andronovo and Seima-Turbino complexes." (p.251)

Northern Chinese populations may have received metal, wheat and barley, wheeled vehicles, the sheep and the horse from the Afanasevo tribes, who came from the west. The words for all these were borrowed into Chinese from Indo-European, presumably Tocharian. It is likely that the rites of domestic animal sacrifice, familiar in the European steppes from the 4th millennium BC, were also adopted. (p.252)

metallurgy in China emerged as early as the turn of the 3rd-2nd millennia BC under the influence of the Eurasian steppes. It was mediated not by the ethnically Chinese tribes of China’s northern periphery, but, initially, by the tribes of the Afanasevo culture and then the Seima-Turbino and Andronovo. Borrowed were the technology of making a bronze alloy, the use of gold and the casting of spears and celts with a concealed socket in two-part molds. Particularly active were the relations between Semirech’e, Fergana and eastern Kazakhstan and Xinjiang, where an Andronovo population settled and all the specific types of the implements of the Semirech’e metallurgical center were in general use. (p.255)

The most important innovation of the first quarter of the 2nd millennium BC was the spread of the light war-chariot with two spoked wheels, harnessed to a pair of horses. The oldest finds of chariots and horses in warrior’s graves are known from the Urals and on the Volga. Having emerged in the formative period of the Andronovo culture at the sites of Sintashta and Petrovka, chariots dominated the steppes in the third-quarter of the 2nd millennium BC in the Timber-grave and Andronovo cutures, which is evidenced by cheek-pieces, representations on vessels and on petroglyphs. The representations of chariots in Xinjiang are analogous to the Andronovo chariots of Kazakhstan and Semirech’e and are executed not in the Near Eastern manner in profile but in the Eurasian style en face, which indisputably corroborates their origin in the north-western steppes.

It is interesting that the graph denoting the chariot in the oracle-bone inscription resembles the pattern in petroglyphs of Central Asia. Chariots proper were discovered in the 1930s at the imperial cemetery of the Shang dynasty and near the palace in the capital of the Yin kingdom in Anyang and later in its neighborhood near Beijing. […] Beside the graves of the the kings and elite there were discovered the ‘chemaken’ pits (literally - ‘a pit with a chariot and horses’). Their date is 1250-1100 BC. They contained weapons, a chariot whose wheels were placed into segmented grooves analogous to those of Sintashta, and two horses, laid, as in Sintashta, on their side parallel to one another. […] The harness, as in Andronovo, has a nose-strap. In contrast to the Near Eastern wheels, the Chinese ones are multi-spoked, like those of Andronovo. Other peculiarities of construction of the Chinese chariots are also close to Andronovo, as far as one may judge from the petroglyphs. This points to the steppe origin of chariots in China. […]

Apparently, together with the horse and the chariot Yin China also adopted the art of horse training, their name, and religious and mythological concepts associated with them. The word ‘horse’ ma is an old Eurasian migrational term, and the name of the chariot stems from the Proto-Indo-European ‘wheel’ and came to Shang China via either Tocharian or early Iranian. The cult of the chariot and the horse and the rite of its sacrifice, particularly at the funeral of a king or military elite, is characteristic of the Indo-Iranians, and archaeologically it is attested in the Andronovo culture.Chinese myths about the connection of the emperor with the winged heavenly horses, which rendered him immortal, the horse coming out of water, the thunder chariot and the sun chariot used by the solar god for travelling over the earth, arise from the Indo-European and, particularly, Indo-Iranian mythology" (p.251-257)


'The origin of the Indo-Iranians' (Kuzmina 2007) (https://archive.org/details/TheOriginOfTheIndo-iranians/page/n269/mode/2up)



“In addition to technology we can look to an Iranian source for the name of the royal magicians or fortune-tellers of the Shang and Zhou courts. The modern Mandarin word for such a magician is ‘wu’ but this would earlier have been pronounced something close to ‘*myag’ or ‘*mag’ which suggests that it may have been borrowed from Iranian, e.g. Old Persian ‘magus’. … That people of a Caucasoid physical type became priest-magicians to the nascent Chinese state finds support from unexpected quarters. Several figures depicting what are widely regarded as Caucasoid physical types have been unearthed in both Shang and Zhou contexts. The two from the Zhou dynasty, recovered from the excavations of a palace in Shaanxi province, are small heads carved from shell. They display large and deep-set eyes, wide mouths, thin lips, large noses and narrow faces, all of which would tend to mark out a Europoid or Caucasoid physical type. Their conical headgear has also been compared with that of some of the steppe tribes. On top of one of them is the cruciform Chinese character for ‘mage’, a symbol which is also reprised in Western art to indicate a magician. So here we find the image of a European physical type in an early Zhou palace and designated with the Chinese word for a ‘magician-priest’, a word believed to derive from the earlier Iranian word of the same meaning. … With Western priests in court and Western chariots on the field in battle, perhaps it is time to consider to what extent the development of Chinese civilization itself was stimulated by Western ‘barbarians’.” (p.326)


'The Tarim Mummies' (Mallory and Mair 2000) (https://archive.org/details/tarimmummiesanci00mall/page/326/mode/2up)

Progon
28-06-20, 13:17
Hard to believe E-V13 Z5018 was part of those early Steppe people that went east.

ratchet_fan
28-06-20, 13:47
Hard to believe E-V13 Z5018 was part of those early Steppe people that went east.

Because it didn't happen. We have a wide variety samples from Indo-Iranian (Sintashta, Potapovka, Andronovo, and soon Fataynovo-Balanovo) in addition to a wide variety of samples from Central Asia during the Bronze and Iron Age plus Afanasievo, Okunevo and Tarim Basin samples. Not a single E-V13.

Riverman
28-06-20, 13:52
Because it didn't happen. We have a wide variety samples from Indo-Iranian (Sintashta, Potapovka, Andronovo, and soon Fataynovo-Balanovo) in addition to a wide variety of samples from Central Asia during the Bronze and Iron Age plus Afanasievo, Okunevo and Tarim Basin samples. Not a single E-V13.

There are also other minority lineages which didn't appear at all or only in a few remains. Unless there is more complete sampling and comparison, there can be no final conclusion on that. You can take 100 samples from a lot of people around the world and not getting the full variation. The same can be true for ancient people. Just remind you on how I1 is hiding so far and even appearing if at all "in the wrong places". The only really important groups to consider from this list are Sintashta-Andronovo. We have samples from those, but not yet enough and the later Indo-Iranians had renewed contacts to the West, at the Western steppe was E-V13, so it could have come from there. There are of course other options too.

Aspurg
28-06-20, 13:56
Z5018 most likely evolved in related Vatina, Verbicioara cultures, also cultures such as Mediana. They occupied Central Balkans, modern SW Romania etc. This can be seen through TMRCA and even current dispersion of various clades.

Mediana culture people were proto Dardanians. That is they were original pre-Illyrian Dardanians who were conquered in Iron Age by the Glasinac culture Illyrians, who imposed the Illyrian language and culture. I suspect these proto-Dardanians were even predominately composed of Z5018 clades.

In Late Bronze Age Urnfield assault pushed many of these Vatina/Mediana elements Southwards, archaeological evidence exists for modern Southern Albania (where one finds some increased concentration), Greece, even Western Anatolia.

Important to note is that not only the Balkans, but the entire Danubian region was genetically autosomaly Paleo-Balkan. The entire modern Hungary, Romania, Moldavia, even Slovakia probably. They were all inhabited by Paleo-Balkan populations, so the real genetic Paleo-Balkan areal included the Pannonians and Daco-Getae as well, not just the Haemus peninsula.

If sojc is descendant of Marco Polo or something similar then he should closely cluster with some already identified cluster. This was Medieval and that is the age for most E-V13 clusters in the Balkans.

Z5018 is not some Steppe population but various clades of Z5018 were bordering the Steppe in MBA, so they could have been assimilated by Srubnaya and later elements.

Congrats on this result, albeit it is still basic. They are testing the Z16659 and S2979 which are most widespread subclades of Z5018. As far as I know there are no Z16659* results thus far. If he is negative to these then they will try some less common clades. Under Z16659 there are some subclades which seem to have older presence in Russian areas too. It's still early to say something more.

ratchet_fan
28-06-20, 14:31
There are also other minority lineages which didn't appear at all or only in a few remains. Unless there is more complete sampling and comparison, there can be no final conclusion on that. You can take 100 samples from a lot of people around the world and not getting the full variation. The same can be true for ancient people. Just remind you on how I1 is hiding so far and even appearing if at all "in the wrong places". The only really important groups to consider from this list are Sintashta-Andronovo. We have samples from those, but not yet enough and the later Indo-Iranians had renewed contacts to the West, at the Western steppe was E-V13, so it could have come from there. There are of course other options too.

That's a possibility. I think there was a J in Afanasievo recently which was unexpected.

There's also a clade of R1a called R1a2a that appears scant but might have been a steppe lineage (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?19593-The-origin-of-the-mysterious-R1a2a-YP4141-gt-YP5018)
so maybe you're right.

kingjohn
28-06-20, 14:46
If they found e-v22 in mongolia (why not e-v13 in china) 😉
mongolia BUR002 M U2e1 E1b1b1a1b2 (E-V22; E-L677) lateXiongnu_sarmatian


the xiongnu e-v22 individual from mongolia is close to sarmatians autosomally speaking
he might be some indo-iranian dude

Riverman
28-06-20, 15:01
Nobody expected to find many I2a in the Swat valley samples, but they were there. So clearly Sintastha and later Indo-Iranians, which all had close ties to the Carpathian region, brought male lineages from the West to the East.

ratchet_fan
28-06-20, 15:11
Nobody expected to find many I2a in the Swat valley samples, but they were there. So clearly Sintastha and later Indo-Iranians, which all had close ties to the Carpathian region, brought male lineages from the West to the East.

True. There were only 2 though right?

Also I2a was found on the steppe. So it didn't necessarily have to come from the Carpathian.

On that note did the SWAT I2a guys leave any descendants in the region?

Riverman
28-06-20, 15:23
Also I2a was found on the steppe. So it didn't necessarily have to come from the Carpathian.


it can be from many places of course, since I2a was so widespread, but I think Carpathian/GAC is more likely. It was picked up by epi-Corded Ware which got additional South Eastern, Carpathian influences -> Sintashta evolved and this was formative for Indo-Iranians.


On that note did the SWAT I2a guys leave any descendants in the region?

To me it seems they were part of an early, not as successful immigration of steppe people. Going after the very general data from Wiki, they left descendents in the North of Indo-Pakistan, parts of South-Central Asia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia

This could have been because of later steppe people, but its nevertheless interesting that its most common among people which have Iranian influences (like Hazara, Tajik and Jats) rather than Indo-Aryan. So it could have been an even later wave rather than direct descendents.

ratchet_fan
28-06-20, 17:08
it can be from many places of course, since I2a was so widespread, but I think Carpathian/GAC is more likely. It was picked up by epi-Corded Ware which got additional South Eastern, Carpathian influences -> Sintashta evolved and this was formative for Indo-Iranians.



To me it seems they were part of an early, not as successful immigration of steppe people. Going after the very general data from Wiki, they left descendents in the North of Indo-Pakistan, parts of South-Central Asia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia

This could have been because of later steppe people, but its nevertheless interesting that its most common among people which have Iranian influences (like Hazara, Tajik and Jats) rather than Indo-Aryan. So it could have been an even later wave rather than direct descendents.

Are those figures valid?

Hazara are mostly Mongolized Tajiks. Jats are Indo-Aryans. 1% I in them would mean ~200K guys with I in the region. That seems wrong for some reason.

Riverman
28-06-20, 17:26
The Hazara are mixed people, the Tanjik Iranian speakers and the Jats claim to have by various sources Iranian ancestry. Like I said, small sample sizes can distort the results. No idea how valid these numbers are and whether there are better studies out there.

About the idea of Jats having Scythian ancestry:
https://www.jatland.com/home/Scythian#Scholars_who_view_Jats.27_origin_from_the _Indo-Scythians

kingjohn
28-06-20, 23:08
Because it didn't happen. We have a wide variety samples from Indo-Iranian (Sintashta, Potapovka, Andronovo, and soon Fataynovo-Balanovo) in addition to a wide variety of samples from Central Asia during the Bronze and Iron Age plus Afanasievo, Okunevo and Tarim Basin samples. Not a single E-V13.


There are 2 E cases in iron age steppe
One is a saka e- m123* y31991 from 500-700 bc north east
Kazachstan no turks during this time
So he probably spoke iranian language 🤔
The other one is an an individual MJ40 east scytian from south ural who dated to 300-150 bc
And he belonged to e- m84 or a branch derived from it....

P.s
Afcorse at the moment it look like
E wasn't important as r1a , q , j or r1b in the steppe
But this 2 e1b1b1 cases could indicate migration from south central asia north

Philjames100
29-06-20, 04:03
it can be from many places of course, since I2a was so widespread, but I think Carpathian/GAC is more likely. It was picked up by epi-Corded Ware which got additional South Eastern, Carpathian influences -> Sintashta evolved and this was formative for Indo-Iranians.

To me it seems they were part of an early, not as successful immigration of steppe people. Going after the very general data from Wiki, they left descendents in the North of Indo-Pakistan, parts of South-Central Asia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia

This could have been because of later steppe people, but its nevertheless interesting that its most common among people which have Iranian influences (like Hazara, Tajik and Jats) rather than Indo-Aryan. So it could have been an even later wave rather than direct descendents.

Khavalynsk had some I2a


... any connection to the Ural megaliths? Who knows.

Actually there are megalithic dolmens in India which are identical to dolmens in the Caucasus and Europe.

ratchet_fan
29-06-20, 04:05
Khavalynsk had some I2a


... any connection to the Ural megaliths? Who knows.

Actually there are megalithic dolmens in India which are identical to dolmens in the Caucasus and Europe.

I wasn't aware of I2a in Khavalynsk. I thought it was predominantly R1b with minor R1a and Q1a.

Philjames100
29-06-20, 04:37
I wasn't aware of I2a in Khavalynsk. I thought it was predominantly R1b with minor R1a and Q1a.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/39034-David-Anthony-on-the-Indo-Europeans-again

Riverman
29-06-20, 11:45
Interestingly haplogroup I is more common in those tribes which also have R1b. Khvalynsk was generally speaking a dead end, but so was CucuteniTrypillia culture (where I think E-V13 was hiding, but can be wrong) and to a lesser degree GAC as well, so it could have come from all of them.

Progon
29-06-20, 11:50
Interestingly haplogroup I is more common in those tribes which also have R1b. Khvalynsk was generally speaking a dead end, but so was Cucuteni�Trypillia culture (where I think E-V13 was hiding, but can be wrong) and to a lesser degree GAC as well, so it could have come from all of them.

Spanish E-V13 from Early Neolithic make it really hard to argue E-V13 was among Cucuteni.

Riverman
29-06-20, 12:11
Spanish E-V13 from Early Neolithic make it really hard to argue E-V13 was among Cucuteni.

I didn't say it was only in TCC or first, because it seems to have spread with Cardial-Impresso first. But it was also there and that most of the modern E-V13 might descend from a male or clan which simply joined the steppe-train one way or another. Of course, they could have joined further South (Balkan) or West (Dalmatia, Pannonia) too, that's the big unknown right now.
Or do you think E-V13 joined multiple times regionally? Isn't the TMRCA too small for that? Do you think E1b from Cardial and Michelsberg did survive? How much of it? In any case it seems most of the E-V13 can be attributed to a more recent, Bronze to EIA expansion from the Balkan-Carpathian region and I just think that TCC is a good candidate to have joined the steppe people's movements. Besides we already have one sample from there.

Progon
29-06-20, 14:44
I didn't say it was only in TCC or first, because it seems to have spread with Cardial-Impresso first. But it was also there and that most of the modern E-V13 might descend from a male or clan which simply joined the steppe-train one way or another. Of course, they could have joined further South (Balkan) or West (Dalmatia, Pannonia) too, that's the big unknown right now.
Or do you think E-V13 joined multiple times regionally? Isn't the TMRCA too small for that? Do you think E1b from Cardial and Michelsberg did survive? How much of it? In any case it seems most of the E-V13 can be attributed to a more recent, Bronze to EIA expansion from the Balkan-Carpathian region and I just think that TCC is a good candidate to have joined the steppe people's movements. Besides we already have one sample from there.

I don't know, just made an assumption. Because the E-V13 mutation might have happened somewhere in between Italy and Austria/Switzerland/Hungary those regions which latter might have spread more east.

Today's diversity of E-V13 around Romania and Moldavia is minimal and it's the third or fourth most common Y-DNA, add the fact that Balkan E-V13 diversity might have been devastated by Justinian Plague, we don't know so far. So far we have two reliable Y-DNA E-V13 from ancient samples, Spanish Cardial Ware, and Thracian from a South Bulgarian city, the third one Scythian from Moldova is unreliable, both by age estimation and the Y-DNA initially was revealed to be R1b then E-V13.

Riverman
29-06-20, 16:53
So far we have two reliable Y-DNA E-V13 from ancient samples, Spanish Cardial Ware, and Thracian from a South Bulgarian city, the third one Scythian from Moldova is unreliable, both by age estimation and the Y-DNA initially was revealed to be R1b then E-V13.

That's true, but I'd say that's mostly due to the bad resolution of most samples, because many upstream E1b samples might have been either pre-V13 or V13 itself. Afaik even the Iberian Cardial sample is predicted only (?), but quite safely so. We will see where we find more and which culture(s) spread it primarily. The principle mechanism might have been pretty much the same either way, because so far we have no culture beside Michelsberg with a high percentage of E1b anyway and the TMRCA does point to a steppe-initiated expansion from a fairly small group, no large scale survival of a wider variation, regardless of where the source was.

Aspurg
29-06-20, 18:06
Today's diversity of E-V13 around Romania and Moldavia is minimal and it's the third or fourth most common Y-DNA,

Their diversity is not minimal, I can list at least 20 different clades of E-V13 in ethnic Romanians/Moldovans right now. It is only not apparent because Romanians/Moldovans are 10-20 times less tested than Albanians, Serbs, Bulgarians.. There are 3 ethnic Romanian E-V13 NGS's, there are at least 33 ethnic Albanian E-V13 NGS's..

Most common hg in Romanians is I-Y3120, a Slavic clade (nothing to do with Dacians in a formative sense as you idiotically claimed on Anthrogenica, bar some dacianized Bastarnae that probably exist among the poorly sequenced Romanians), second most common is R1a, vast majority are Slavic clades, Z93 are rare. Once these newer Slavic arrivals (or in the case of I2a it is Bastarnae arrival too) are adjusted for, once Germanic arrivals (I1, R-U106) are adjusted for, the picture changes alot. Besides Romanians/Moldovans have 15 % of E-V13 when all studies samples are taken into account so it is still the 3rd strongest hg, though R1b is close too. Though once the structure of Romanian R1b is looked at, vast majority are L51+, many are U106+, others are U152 arrivals to that region (Roman, Celtic, Urnfield), majority of relatively weak Z2103 is not native to there as well (such as proto-Albanian R-Z2705, then Aromanian/Greek cluster). So all of this increases the % of V13 among the natives of the area. Of course various V13's came from Bulgaria and Central Balkan area too.



add the fact that Balkan E-V13 diversity might have been devastated by Justinian Plague, we don't know so far.

Justinian Plague had an impact but so did various Barbarian migratory events which had modern Pannonian/Dacian areas as their starting point. That is I1/U106 Germanics surely had better chance of pushing some V13 locals from those areas then they had with the Balkan areas.

But this is moot point anyway, as I've said, not only the Balkan peninsula but the entire Danubian region was Paleo-Balkan autosomally, so it's logical to expect Paleo-Balkan hg's there.

You seem to have an emotional blockade triggering whenever some E-V13 north of Danube is mentioned, because of your dislike for the Slavs I guess, so you don't want V13 to have ties to those regions. But V13 indeed does have ties to those regions and even though currently Balkan is better tested than Transdanubian areas, we can estimate that the CTS1273+, BY3880- ancestor did not live in the Balkans, though great many of his immediate descendants did spread around the Balkans soon after.



So far we have two reliable Y-DNA E-V13 from ancient samples, Spanish Cardial Ware, and Thracian from a South Bulgarian city,

Most relevant is the E-L618 Cardial Dalmatian. Spanish Cardial was outnumbered by 3 or 4 G2a, so it might not have been that relevant. Dalmatian Cardial Neolithic is the only Cardial and almost Neolithic element in Europe for whose continued existence there is archaeological evidence until the arrival of IE's, and there is for their participation in the formation of Cetina culture.



the third one Scythian from Moldova is unreliable, both by age estimation and the Y-DNA initially was revealed to be R1b then E-V13.

It is not unreliable in any shape or form, the age datation is off but the site dates from 300 BC, I've seen the traits of E-V13 burial it dates from around 300 BC. it cannot date from any other period.

R1b SNP calls are false, and there were plenty of other false SNP calls in this study.

Progon
29-06-20, 19:30
^^ I don't bother with your propaganda from Sumadija University. You write with no context. We all know in detail about those informations, there is no need for parroting. I pressume since you have Albanian subclade you are sort of devoid of reality.


That's true, but I'd say that's mostly due to the bad resolution of most samples, because many upstream E1b samples might have been either pre-V13 or V13 itself. Afaik even the Iberian Cardial sample is predicted only (?), but quite safely so. We will see where we find more and which culture(s) spread it primarily. The principle mechanism might have been pretty much the same either way, because so far we have no culture beside Michelsberg with a high percentage of E1b anyway and the TMRCA does point to a steppe-initiated expansion from a fairly small group, no large scale survival of a wider variation, regardless of where the source was.

New ancient samples will reveal eventually, North-West Greece and South Albania will be the landing point of E-L618, then it should have mimicked the Cardial spread, though they were probably dominated by G2a again but most likely heavy influenced by a culture similar to Iberomaurisians/Natufians, E-L618 is the best candidate. I am not sure about the actual E-V13 mutation though. Danubian Farmers look less likely, only one Cucuteni E-M78*.

Aspurg
29-06-20, 20:54
^^ I don't bother with your propaganda from Sumadija University. You write with no context. I pressume since you have Albanian subclade you are sort of devoid of reality.

1. I've never been in Sumadija in my whole life. Also I have more reason to "hate Serbs" than just about any Albanians. In reality I don't care much about Serbs nor about Albanians. I'll tell you though what I surely am: Darwinist in a fully practical sense, and that is something neither of these ethnicities are based upon (though Albanians have more of it). Especially not the likes of you and your close cousin Derite from your posts.

2. My clade is not Albanian, there is not a single Albanian genetically closer to me than Iron Age, while there are much closer connections to Serbs (from Pecheneg places and links), Bulgarians, Bosniaks, Romanians, then Hungarians and quite possibly Ukrainians and Uzbeks as well. There are also some Z17107+, likely Y30991- Russians.. There are Swedes with Iron Age relations to these proto-Albanians (closer than me). Are they Albanians? LOL. My clade if it is Illyrian it must be Pannonian, so something like that Iron Age Croatian autosomally, modern North Italian, far from Albanians or Greeks. But it is more likely that my clade is Dacian looking at current hard evidence I have. Third option is some Triballian but its least likely.

3. My distant cousin clade is proto-Albanian, while your clade might have been assimilated along the way somewhere or it was proto-Albanian too. You are originally a minor clade in Albanians that recently demographically exploded in Kosovo Albanians, it almost doesn't exist in Albania. Your clade in a study sample makes up 11 % of Kosovo Albanians and 25 % of Kosovar V13. You have Cretan Greek, Macedonian Greeks (with whom you have Early Iron Age links), who are genetically closer to you than any other Albanian Z5018's. Greeks seem to have a TMRCA of 2000-2500 years between themselves (or even more). They are no Arvanites.

One of these Greeks has BigY but hasn't uploaded yet to YFull.



New ancient samples will reveal eventually, North-West Greece and South Albania will be the landing point of E-L618, then it should have mimicked the Cardial spread, though they were probably dominated by G2a again but most likely heavy influenced by a culture similar to Iberomaurisians/Natufians, E-L618 is the best candidate. I am not sure about the actual E-V13 mutation though. Danubian Farmers look less likely, only one Cucuteni E-M78*.

NW Greece and South Albania might have been the place where some E-L618 dwelled. Originally they might have landed initially in some Greek islands. I don't disagree with you that E-L618 was present there. They were genetically overwhelmingly similar to usual G2a cultures, though they seem to have had some minor Natufian-like/IM-like element, and culturally likely some influences.

But that's not my main point nor interest. Those days were not great days from my own Darwinist POV. EEF's were not war-like, they were rather weak. I care about when and how V13 started spreading around in Bronze Age, our ancestor rejecting the obsolete Old European ways and embracing the superior Indoeuropean ways of fulfilling Evolutionary Laws.

And the only current fit into that is Cetina culture. Cetina was a Balkan warlike culture, with social stratification, weapons, Kurgan burials and all that went with the new Order at the time.

To sum it up, V13 could have spread from Cetina, that is from the Balkans entirely or as SNP and archeological evidence suggests, CTS1273 was picked up by a Yamnaya variant and started spreading from modern-day Romania. Either case there is no archaeological evidence for any bronze Age spread of V13 out of Southern Albania. You mentioned Maliq BA, that V13 might be found there, you are right, but Maliq IIIa was an ofshoot of Cetina people. There were some Maliq II EEF remnants but they were killed off. There was no continuity. So if we find E-V13 in Maliq BA that's great because they were Cetina ofshoot, and who knows they might have killed some of their own cousins in Maliq II, though I suspect they were again mostly G2a.

In fact I wish to explore why did V13 survive although it was far less common in Neolithic than G2a. Of G2a there is a robust L497 clade, other than that nothing rivaling V13 expansion. I think it might have been the creepiness of E-V13 people in Dalmatia who practiced the IM/Natufian skull cult for thousands of years that might have impressed the IE's. :grin:

Riverman
29-06-20, 22:32
I rather say the V13 clan was accepted because it had something to offer. Probably they were good artisans, like smiths or the like. Because its fascinating how widespread V13 became so fast, in different territories of steppe derived people. This could have had, at least at some point, something to do with a special role they fulfilled, either in the Bronze Age or the early Iron Age, probably in both times in different ways. Some of the distribution is so hard to explain by anything like a compact tribe and better by a split up clan/people among different tribes I'd say. Especially that some clades seem to have split at roughly the same time and went in completely different directions afterwards, not with their closest kin, but with other clades of V13. That looks suspicious in the described way, but I might be off. Can only be proven by detailed analyses, many samples and burial context etc.

Progon
29-06-20, 23:43
1. I've never been in Sumadija in my whole life. Also I have more reason to "hate Serbs" than just about any Albanians. In reality I don't care much about Serbs nor about Albanians. I'll tell you though what I surely am: Darwinist in a fully practical sense, and that is something neither of these ethnicities are based upon (though Albanians have more of it). Especially not the likes of you and your close cousin Derite from your posts.

You took the Sumadija part too seriously, it was a joke. I cannot figure out your exact ethnic affiliations, Bosnian, Montenegrin, Serb, Pecheneg, what?


2. My clade is not Albanian, there is not a single Albanian genetically closer to me than Iron Age, while there are much closer connections to Serbs (from Pecheneg places and links), Bulgarians, Bosniaks, Romanians, then Hungarians and quite possibly Ukrainians and Uzbeks as well. There are also some Z17107+, likely Y30991- Russians.. There are Swedes with Iron Age relations to these proto-Albanians (closer than me). Are they Albanians? LOL. My clade if it is Illyrian it must be Pannonian, so something like that Iron Age Croatian autosomally, modern North Italian, far from Albanians or Greeks. But it is more likely that my clade is Dacian looking at current hard evidence I have. Third option is some Triballian but its least likely.

I can see that all your assumptions come from yFull, but when we have very large dataset things get more clearer.


3. My distant cousin clade is proto-Albanian, while your clade might have been assimilated along the way somewhere or it was proto-Albanian too. You are originally a minor clade in Albanians that recently demographically exploded in Kosovo Albanians, it almost doesn't exist in Albania. Your clade in a study sample makes up 11 % of Kosovo Albanians and 25 % of Kosovar V13. You have Cretan Greek, Macedonian Greeks (with whom you have Early Iron Age links), who are genetically closer to you than any other Albanian Z5018's. Greeks seem to have a TMRCA of 2000-2500 years between themselves (or even more). They are no Arvanites.

One of these Greeks has BigY but hasn't uploaded yet to YFull.

You didn't mention one thing, S2979 which i belong to, is the most common mutation among Albanians, for instance the South Albanian Labs are exclusively S2979, it's widespread from North to South. The specific Berisha-Sopi clade has closest ties to an Italian, Bulgarian from Plovdiv, Italian again, that Cretan Greek, German, Irish, Dutch. The connection looks strange, but it is there.


NW Greece and South Albania might have been the place where some E-L618 dwelled. Originally they might have landed initially in some Greek islands. I don't disagree with you that E-L618 was present there. They were genetically overwhelmingly similar to usual G2a cultures, though they seem to have had some minor Natufian-like/IM-like element, and culturally likely some influences.

But that's not my main point nor interest. Those days were not great days from my own Darwinist POV. EEF's were not war-like, they were rather weak. I care about when and how V13 started spreading around in Bronze Age, our ancestor rejecting the obsolete Old European ways and embracing the superior Indoeuropean ways of fulfilling Evolutionary Laws.

And the only current fit into that is Cetina culture. Cetina was a Balkan warlike culture, with social stratification, weapons, Kurgan burials and all that went with the new Order at the time.

To sum it up, V13 could have spread from Cetina, that is from the Balkans entirely or as SNP and archeological evidence suggests, CTS1273 was picked up by a Yamnaya variant and started spreading from modern-day Romania. Either case there is no archaeological evidence for any bronze Age spread of V13 out of Southern Albania. You mentioned Maliq BA, that V13 might be found there, you are right, but Maliq IIIa was an ofshoot of Cetina people. There were some Maliq II EEF remnants but they were killed off. There was no continuity. So if we find E-V13 in Maliq BA that's great because they were Cetina ofshoot, and who knows they might have killed some of their own cousins in Maliq II, though I suspect they were again mostly G2a.

In fact I wish to explore why did V13 survive although it was far less common in Neolithic than G2a. Of G2a there is a robust L497 clade, other than that nothing rivaling V13 expansion. I think it might have been the creepiness of E-V13 people in Dalmatia who practiced the IM/Natufian skull cult for thousands of years that might have impressed the IE's. :grin:

The case of EEF and G2a is a thing which i am very curious to know why and how it ceased to diminish, i doubt they were so peaceful as some want to depict them, G2a colonized the whole of Europe and likely their dominance started to weaken due to a series of pandemics, something which the Steppe people took advantage of.

In case of E-L618 there is some speculation that it was already in late Mesolithic Europe, some say it came directly from Iberomaurusians crossing from Tunisian shores to Sicily but it doesn't look so likely.

Aspurg
30-06-20, 03:07
You took the Sumadija part too seriously, it was a joke. I cannot figure out your exact ethnic affiliations, Bosnian, Montenegrin, Serb, Pecheneg, what?

I am 1/4 "Montenegrin"(actually Lim area, none of my paternal ancestors ever lived in historical "Montenegro", this became Montenegro in 1912), the rest of my ancestry is Central Bosnia. Actually I have relatives 1800 years distant close to where majority of my ancestry is from, even though my paternal clade has no historic connection to Bosnia.

Oh I'd most definitely affiliate with Pechenegs most, there are plenty of others of my clade who can identify with whatever they want. I am a specialist in Nomads.
I have 900-1000 years distant cousins ("unknown origin" in literature even though they are most numerous family in the village) in a Pecheneg named village, next to which there are villages named after a Pecheneg or precisely Berendei clan, it was settled there and given possessions by a Bulgarian ruler Ivan Asen II because they brought him to power. In 1253, the new Bulgarian ruler, his son, invaded Serbia, namely Bijelo Polje area where my clan is old. Actually one Serb family with origin from Peshter , around 500 years away from me, has an old surname almost identical to the surname of this Pecheneg clan which settled in a Pecheneg village where I do have no more than 1000 years distant cousin. Also my own surname is old, and similar to a distinct Pecheneg name. This important as these surnames are old, and non-existant in Serbs.
Note where my family is from, that is my genetics, there are various villages of Bulgarian origin, which is paradoxal for Serbia-Montenegro border region. One of them is Boljare (Bolyars were Bulgarian nobility).

I have a 1000 years distant cousin in Vojvodina, unknown ethnicity. Of these Serbs tested from there thus far (200), no relatives. This guy could be some earlier migratory connection, as he is not close to others. Both Romanians and Hungarians from Vojvodina have groups of likely Pecheneg origins. So if he's not a Serb he is certainly very interesting. And we do know from that sample where he appears that lot of samples are not Serb (huge R1b L51 percentage being one difference for ex., many samples of various hg's cluster with non-Serbs).

Bosniaks in a clade E-FT192275 have a NW Romanian (from a Hungarian city) about 1000 years distant too, so they might not be local in Bosnia. In fact one of these Bosniaks migth be related to a medieval Bosnian noble family which showed some likely Nomad links. And not only that, the early Bosnian ruler, ban Kulin had a Pecheneg name.
It would be weird for these Bosniaks to have Vlach origins as Vlach ancestry in Central Bosnia is so rare to non-existant. That is why Bosniaks call Serbs "Vlachs" as they have more Vlach ancestry and most of Serbs from Bosnia and Serbia had Vlach legal status in 15th, 16th century.

The only Kulin in recorded history prior to him was the son of this man, and this name is considered Pecheneg by the experts. He took later the Byzantine name.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannes_Kegen

Bosniaks are very similar to Croats and Serbs except they have some genetics derived from Hungarian areas, this includes a Jasz G2a clade, a proto Magyar N-M2019 clade. Like these it seems mine have connection to Central Bosnia, this is where original Bosnia was formed in 10th century. This is the only way proto-Bosnians can end up being different from proto-Serbs and proto-Croats, as no such tribe was ever attested prior to 10th century.

Thus far two tested Bessenyei from Hungary. One is E-V13, probably CTS9320+ but he doesn't seem close to somebody. The other is I-Y125026 without some close matches again. But there must be dozens, I think at least 50, possibly 100 of separate Besenyi/Bessenyei families. Thus far if its about Pechenegs, my own cluster is the only instance when some likely Pecheneg connections occur in families that are up to 1000 years away, who never had any tradition of being related to each other and who are 180 km distant geographically. I expect most from Romanian Berindei families, who are also numerous, because these connections I found seem to be specifically Berendei.

My clan is not native to Western Balkans, due to multiple specific STR's occurring in Bulgarian border area cousins, I know my ancestors arrived from there in Medieval times. If they are native in MNE they would have to have made a full circle, migrating from Western Balkans to Shop region and then coming back which makes little sense.



I can see that all your assumptions come from yFull, but when we have very large dataset things get more clearer.

My own subclade is a loser due to low testing in some areas where I have certain close genetic relatives. But also it is very recognizable, due to that, even looking at scientific papers about Albanians there were no closer relatives.

No, I don't look solely at YFull, there is a Russian Z17107* who hasn't uploaded to YFull, should be Y30991- though he has no reading on it. There are Ukrainian, Polish Z17107+, Z38456- without a BigY, they are 99% Y30991+, so at the same level as me. And they show some similarities with A24066, if they are A24070+, they will almost certainly split the A24066 clade. And so will eventually one Uzbek sample. That would make things quite different. Anyways hopefully we can have BigY of this clade too.



You didn't mention one thing, S2979 which i belong to, is the most common mutation among Albanians, for instance the South Albanian Labs are exclusively S2979, it's widespread from North to South. The specific Berisha-Sopi clade has closest ties to an Italian, Bulgarian from Plovdiv, Italian again, that Cretan Greek, German, Irish, Dutch. The connection looks strange, but it is there.

S2979 is pretty old and extremely dispersed even around the Balkans. Z16659 for ex., and its subclade Y3183 almost certainly has a more Eastern Balkan origin point. Reason: two Bulgarian clades, the E-CTS4431 and another not on YFull yet, that are S2972-.

On Serbian forum to support a Slavic origin for I-Y3120 against some Deretic followers, I saw someone using the fact that most of Serb identified clusters have Polish, Ukrainian cousins who are genetically closer to them than other Serb clusters. And that these links date to Migration Period.

With Albanian S2979 clades you see something similar, LBA ties to other areas and ethnic groups. Why does this occur? Because in chaotic times of invasions, especially in groups that are pushed by another group, brothers get separated from brothers and they migrate with some distant cousins, while some of their brothers stay together with the brothers of someone else. So this suggests Albanian S2979 is also connected to some large migratory event which happened in LBA. As we see distant cousins popping up in Greece, the only such event was the Bronze Age Collapse.



The case of EEF and G2a is a thing which i am very curious to know why and how it ceased to diminish, i doubt they were so peaceful as some want to depict them, G2a colonized the whole of Europe and likely their dominance started to weaken due to a series of pandemics, something which the Steppe people took advantage of.

In case of E-L618 there is some speculation that it was already in late Mesolithic Europe, some say it came directly from Iberomaurusians crossing from Tunisian shores to Sicily but it doesn't look so likely.

I guess they couldn't have been that peaceful, after all Otzi died in combat. And they still imposed their culture upon WHG's.

E-L618 would have to arrive in pre-Neolithic times to Balkans to have some IM connection. IM's dissapeared before the Neolithic, they were replaced by Capsians who are in turn hypothesized to have arrived from Levant. There is an Algerian E-L618 related to the Saudis, I thought he might be some link, but it turned our they have some IA connection to Albanian E-L618's.

Make no mistake, evidence of EEF's surviving for a long time until the EBA is very rare. But it does exist for Dalmatian Cardials. And I am not aware any other EEF group practiced this skull cult, not even the closely related Cardials in Apulia!! Nobody in Neolithic Europe practiced this cult. Why?? Because only in Dalmatian Cardials were the E-L618 dominant?? Right now there are two Dalmatian Cardial finds, E-L618 and C-V20. No G2a there. And this practice was the only thing present in all stages of Dalmatian Neolithic, Early, Middle, Late, and there is evidence of it even in Cetina culture. I think it's quite clear. The clade such as E-Y37092 literally mimics the Cetina culture in spread and age.

So as E-M35 admin proposed long time ago I believe E-V13 began with Cetina culture. Non Y37092 clades are probably connected to some closely related cultures.

Johane Derite
30-06-20, 03:38
I am 1/4 "Montenegrin"(actually Lim area, none of my paternal ancestors ever lived in historical "Montenegro", this became Montenegro in 1912), the rest of my ancestry is Central Bosnia. Actually I have relatives 1800 years distant close to where majority of my ancestry is from, even though my paternal clade has no historic connection to Bosnia.

Oh I'd most definitely affiliate with Pechenegs most, there are plenty of others of my clade who can identify with whatever they want. I am a specialist in Nomads.
I have 900-1000 years distant cousins ("unknown origin" in literature even though they are most numerous family in the village) in a Pecheneg named village, next to which there are villages named after a Pecheneg or precisely Berendei clan, it was settled there and given possessions by a Bulgarian ruler Ivan Asen II because they brought him to power. In 1253, the new Bulgarian ruler, his son, invaded Serbia, namely Bijelo Polje area where my clan is old. Actually one Serb family with origin from Peshter , around 500 years away from me, has an old surname almost identical to the surname of this Pecheneg clan which settled in a Pecheneg village where I do have no more than 1000 years distant cousin. Also my own surname is old, and similar to a distinct Pecheneg name. This important as these surnames are old, and non-existant in Serbs.
Note where my family is from, that is my genetics, there are various villages of Bulgarian origin, which is paradoxal for Serbia-Montenegro border region. One of them is Boljare (Bolyars were Bulgarian nobility).

I have a 1000 years distant cousin in Vojvodina, unknown ethnicity. Of these Serbs tested from there thus far (200), no relatives. This guy could be some earlier migratory connection, as he is not close to others. Both Romanians and Hungarians from Vojvodina have groups of likely Pecheneg origins. So if he's not a Serb he is certainly very interesting. And we do know from that sample where he appears that lot of samples are not Serb (huge R1b L51 percentage being one difference for ex., many samples of various hg's cluster with non-Serbs).

Bosniaks in a clade E-FT192275 have a NW Romanian (from a Hungarian city) about 1000 years distant too, so they might not be local in Bosnia. In fact one of these Bosniaks migth be related to a medieval Bosnian noble family which showed some likely Nomad links. And not only that, the early Bosnian ruler, ban Kulin had a Pecheneg name.
It would be weird for these Bosniaks to have Vlach origins as Vlach ancestry in Central Bosnia is so rare to non-existant. That is why Bosniaks call Serbs "Vlachs" as they have more Vlach ancestry and most of Serbs from Bosnia and Serbia had Vlach legal status in 15th, 16th century.

The only Kulin in recorded history prior to him was the son of this man, and this name is considered Pecheneg by the experts. He took later the Byzantine name.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannes_Kegen

Bosniaks are very similar to Croats and Serbs except they have some genetics derived from Hungarian areas, this includes a Jasz G2a clade, a proto Magyar N-M2019 clade. Like these it seems mine have connection to Central Bosnia, this is where original Bosnia was formed in 10th century. This is the only way proto-Bosnians can end up being different from proto-Serbs and proto-Croats, as no such tribe was ever attested prior to 10th century.

Thus far two tested Bessenyei from Hungary. One is E-V13, probably CTS9320+ but he doesn't seem close to somebody. The other is I-Y125026 without some close matches again. But there must be dozens, I think at least 50, possibly 100 of separate Besenyi/Bessenyei families. Thus far if its about Pechenegs, my own cluster is the only instance when some likely Pecheneg connections occur in families that are up to 1000 years away, who never had any tradition of being related to each other and who are 180 km distant geographically. I expect most from Romanian Berindei families, who are also numerous, because these connections I found seem to be specifically Berendei.

My clan is not native to Western Balkans, due to multiple specific STR's occurring in Bulgarian border area cousins, I know my ancestors arrived from there in Medieval times. If they are native in MNE they would have to have made a full circle, migrating from Western Balkans to Shop region and then coming back which makes little sense.



My own subclade is a loser due to low testing in some areas where I have certain close genetic relatives. But also it is very recognizable, due to that, even looking at scientific papers about Albanians there were no closer relatives.

No, I don't look solely at YFull, there is a Russian Z17107* who hasn't uploaded to YFull, should be Y30991- though he has no reading on it. There are Ukrainian, Polish Z17107+, Z38456- without a BigY, they are 99% Y30991+, so at the same level as me. And they show some similarities with A24066, if they are A24070+, they will almost certainly split the A24066 clade. And so will eventually one Uzbek sample. That would make things quite different. Anyways hopefully we can have BigY of this clade too.



But even if this is all accurate, this is still not an argument for an origin of your branch of E-V13 from Kazakhstan. It would just make your branch possibly a local lineage here that allied with them in some way. I'm sure we can find local lineages that expanded in the Balkans as allies with Ottomans, but it wouldn't make their origin Ottoman. Likewise I still don't see the argument for how your branch of E-V13 comes from Kazakhstan regions around 1000 years ago.

I think these turkic tribes must have had some local allies here, and that this is quite an understudied area, but I don't agree that this entails having turkic origin, even if they were great "loyalists". There should be a clear distinction made when referring to possible allied locals, assimilated locals, and actual authentic turkic origin haplogroups.

Johane Derite
30-06-20, 03:41
I remember also some J2b-L283 showing up around the volga that apparantly had a middle ages origin from the Balkans to there. So it is possible that there was even interaction the complete other way around, with balkaners being employed as mercenaries or something for these turkic kingdoms.

Progon
30-06-20, 11:13
Maybe Aspurg can find something in Serbo-Croatian about this Middle Neolithic Site. With what culture is Danilo Middle Neolithic related to, predecessor and successor cultures i mean?


The human skeleton in question was excavated over 50 years ago at the Early/Middle Neolithic site at Smilčić - Barice, near Zadar in southern Croatia. After the excavation the skeleton was transported in one block to the Archaeological Museum in Zadar where it stayed almost forgotten for over half a century. We wanted to re-evaluate these “old” bones by using modern techniques, but also to show that even such “forgotten” cases can be scientifically valued to the fullest extent. The presented study consists of radiocarbon dating, preliminary bioarchaeological analysis, ancient DNA analysis as well as nitrogen and carbon stable isotopes analysis. The skeleton was directly dated to 5210-5026 cal BCE, i.e. to Danilo Middle Neolithic culture. The study showed that the skeleton belongs to a middle-aged male, around 40 years of age, who suffered from several pathological changes, most probably associated with advanced age (vertebral osteophytosis and Achilles tendon ossification). The individual was relatively robust with a height of about 165 cm. Archaeogenetic analysis confirmed that this is a male individual - his mitochondrial DNA belongs to haplogroup T2g2 while his Y-DNA belongs to haplogroup G2a2a. Stable isotopes analysis suggests that his diet was mostly based on C3 terrestrial products with a very low intake of animal proteins and/or sea fish. This study showed the importance of re- evaluation of “old” archaeological bones with modern techniques and the amount of new data we can gain by using such an approach.

https://www.bib.irb.hr/1040845




One sample, Y-DNA G2a.

Aspurg
30-06-20, 13:23
But even if this is all accurate, this is still not an argument for an origin of your branch of E-V13 from Kazakhstan. It would just make your branch possibly a local lineage here that allied with them in some way. I'm sure we can find local lineages that expanded in the Balkans as allies with Ottomans, but it wouldn't make their origin Ottoman. Likewise I still don't see the argument for how your branch of E-V13 comes from Kazakhstan regions around 1000 years ago.

I think these turkic tribes must have had some local allies here, and that this is quite an understudied area, but I don't agree that this entails having turkic origin, even if they were great "loyalists". There should be a clear distinction made when referring to possible allied locals, assimilated locals, and actual authentic turkic origin haplogroups.

If this Ukrainian clade is related to mine, my clade might be an ofshoot of this clade, and this Uzbek guy could be closer to me than to them. This could be some old link (even some Cimmerian, or Getae-Sarmatian). Pechenegs are bit of a mystery, 3 out of 9 of their tribes were surely from Central-Asia, some of other tribes could have had other origins. Apparently according to anthropological evidence they were more Caucasoid than Cumans and Uz.

The real Ottoman non-Asian descended people are for ex. some J2a clades. in Turks from Macedonia there is a J2a haplotype, very common among them, these obviously came from Anatolia, in Anatolia they were picked up by the Seljuks. There are many R-Z2705 among them too, but these might be more recently assimilated people.

Turkics were inclusive generally, no wonder as the progenitor of proto-Turkic language is hg Q and even Steppe Turkics were not pred. of Q clades.

Regarding Volga J-L283, in Tatars namely, their TMRCA is Medieval but their further relatives are about 2400 years away, one of them Chechen, so this clade could have been assimilated by the Scythians.

Actually in one small Cuman sample from Hungary occurs some J-PH4679 under which is one of proto-Albanian clades. In this sample there is Central Asian R-Y14051 peaking in Kumandin people so they do have some proto-Cuman ancestry too. Many scenarios are possible, maybe these J-PH4679 were Byzantines captured by the Cumans.

Though I've been looking now at this haplotype, it seems PH4679+ but Y161916-, Y20899- (or at that level) so it might be very distant from Albanians, even LBA.

Riverman
30-06-20, 13:28
But even if this is all accurate, this is still not an argument for an origin of your branch of E-V13 from Kazakhstan. It would just make your branch possibly a local lineage here that allied with them in some way. I'm sure we can find local lineages that expanded in the Balkans as allies with Ottomans, but it wouldn't make their origin Ottoman. Likewise I still don't see the argument for how your branch of E-V13 comes from Kazakhstan regions around 1000 years ago.

I think these turkic tribes must have had some local allies here, and that this is quite an understudied area, but I don't agree that this entails having turkic origin, even if they were great "loyalists". There should be a clear distinction made when referring to possible allied locals, assimilated locals, and actual authentic turkic origin haplogroups.

While I agree with you about the likelihood of the possible scenarios, it still remains a possibility, because we actually know that from Eastern Europe, including and especially the Carpathian region, there was, what you might call "back migration" of steppe people and it seems that, again in the very same region, they picked up local male lineages as a minority element. Until there is sufficient testing, you can tell probabilities, but you can't exclude alternative scenarios like some G2 or E1b being picked up, moving first East as part of a steppe tribe, and then, when the West Eurasian, mostly Iranian expansion, collapsed, moved back.
That's exactly the same scenario which remains possible for our Chinese thread starter, just that these stayed in East Asia or were brought there by Turk-Mongols later. Looking at all tribal alliances of the Eurasian steppe, the only thing you can say for sure you only know who was part of it once they got tested and properly analysed. Before, its guesswork.

Aspurg
30-06-20, 13:48
Maybe Aspurg can find something in Serbo-Croatian about this Middle Neolithic Site. With what culture is Danilo Middle Neolithic related to, predecessor and successor cultures i mean?

One sample, Y-DNA G2a.

Of course I read about Danilo Culture alot. This was the second stage of Dalmatian Cardial Neolithic.

Dalmatian Cardial Neolithic had 3 stages
1. Early Cardial, where E-L618 and C-V20 were found
2. Middle Neolithic - Danilo culture , so one is G2a2a
3. Late Neolithic - Hvar culture

After
4. Chalcolithic - Nakovana culture, (Hvar culture remnant with some later Vinca arrivals)
5. EBA - Ljubljana culture, Adriatic subtype - Nakovana remnant + Bell Beakeroid Ljubljana arrivals
6. EBA - Proto-Cetina - Adriatic Ljubljana mixed with Yamnaya Glina III and some non Ljubljana Bell Beaker.

You see why this makes sense for V13. Because of L618 find in Early Cardial and there is a string of cultures in succession after.

Dalmatian Neolithic cultures differed. In fact Danilo culture was hypothesized to have arrived from the SE, others thought it was mostly local in development.

It seems this skeleton is one of those skeletons I read about before. There are only 2 skeletons of Danilo culture. They were brachycephalic though generally Mediterranean in features. Somewhat taller Neolithics (5'5" -1.65 m).

I wonder whether this G2a2 signals there was some influx in the Middle Neolithic, as in Early Neolithic there were no G2a2. Maybe his mtdna is some clue.

Johane Derite
30-06-20, 14:04
While I agree with you about the likelihood of the possible scenarios, it still remains a possibility, because we actually know that from Eastern Europe, including and especially the Carpathian region, there was, what you might call "back migration" of steppe people and it seems that, again in the very same region, they picked up local male lineages as a minority element. Until there is sufficient testing, you can tell probabilities, but you can't exclude alternative scenarios like some G2 or E1b being picked up, moving first East as part of a steppe tribe, and then, when the West Eurasian, mostly Iranian expansion, collapsed, moved back.
That's exactly the same scenario which remains possible for our Chinese thread starter, just that these stayed in East Asia or were brought there by Turk-Mongols later. Looking at all tribal alliances of the Eurasian steppe, the only thing you can say for sure you only know who was part of it once they got tested and properly analysed. Before, its guesswork.

I don't discount it as a possibility, and see it probable that there were groups of locals from balkans, proto-albanians included, that made alliances with these Pechenegs, Cumans, Polovotsians, etc. Byzantines did for sure. Slavs had alliances with avars, bulgars, etc. For now though i see it as improbable that balkan ev13 is from caucausus or turkic regions. I think north east carpathians and ukraine was most probably the north east periphery. More testing will clarify whether this is justified belief or not.

sojc
01-07-20, 18:01
A little update on the still processing test:

Quick results summary:
E1b-V13 Panel processing
Z5017 G-
Z5018 T+
S2979 T+
Z16659 A-
FGC33621 processing
FGC11450 processing

Says the deepest confirmed is S2979 at this point.

Aspurg
01-07-20, 18:43
A little update on the still processing test:

Quick results summary:
E1b-V13 Panel processing
Z5017 G-
Z5018 T+
S2979 T+
Z16659 A-
FGC33621 processing
FGC11450 processing

Says the deepest confirmed is S2979 at this point.

Congrats sojc! So you are S2979 after all. Z16659- is important. So there are only 3 options, S2979* (not found thus far), FGC33621 which is diverse in the Balkans, and FGC11451 which is very widespread and has many Balkan but also Carpathian clades. Even one clade in Tatars. Interesting that they are testing FGC11450, skipping FGC11457, there are some FGC11457+, FGC11450- clades.

If you are FGC33621, then maybe there is some Marco Polo like event. If you are FGC11457 that is less likely and most likely your ancestor arrived from the West earlier.

At YSEQ below FGC33621 they test also for FGC33625 (Progon and Derite, Berisha-Sopi cluster), and A10158 (Cretan Greek, Macedonian, also one Greek from Macedonia is with this N.Macedonian), Bulgarian at YFull might be A10158+.

Below FGC11457 they test no less than 20 SNP's, and all important clades are covered.

Chances are you are some FGC11457, but we'll see..

Johane Derite
01-07-20, 18:44
A little update on the still processing test:
Quick results summary:
E1b-V13 Panel processing
Z5017 G-
Z5018 T+
S2979 T+
Z16659 A-
FGC33621 processing
FGC11450 processing
Says the deepest confirmed is S2979 at this point.
Super interesting, keep us posted.

If you are FGC33621, here is a map i made last year of it:

https://i.imgur.com/aDe47vS.jpg

Progon
01-07-20, 23:13
Super interesting, keep us posted.

If you are FGC33621, here is a map i made last year of it:

https://i.imgur.com/aDe47vS.jpg

I might be biased but, the spread of this subclade reminds me of:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/UrnfieldCulture.jpg

Riverman
02-07-20, 15:03
I might be biased but, the spread of this subclade reminds me of:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/UrnfieldCulture.jpg

Illyrians spread with Urnfield and Eastern Hallstatt, influencing Celts and Western Hallstatt too, so yes, its not that far off, with single clades most likely migrating with Italics and Celts early on in Urnfield. I'm expecting to find some in Unetice-related groups too. Its quite telling that some clades ended up in Albanians, but from specific, usually fairly old branches. I guess these were going South with the Illyrians and being part of those tribes which stayed local and kept the Illyrian tradition. The others branched off early on from the Carpathian and root and either followed other ethnicities early on (like Thracians, Celts and Italics in particular) or changed in the later course of history.
That's the Northern branching event I propose and from which some might have made it into Sintashta and Indo-Iranians too, just not as widespread and successfull, where the second early branching led directly to the Balkans South.

eastara
02-07-20, 15:20
I always suspected he is from the Tartar/Chuvash branch and the connection are the Mongols and Golden Horde, soon we will know.

Riverman
02-07-20, 16:26
I always suspected he is from the Tartar/Chuvash branch and the connection are the Mongols and Golden Horde, soon we will know.

That is possible, but even then the most likely path to Turkic and Mongol groups would be via Iranian tribes with origins in ancient Central and Eastern Europe.

sojc
03-07-20, 18:21
Thanks for all the info so far guys, so so very interesting! Another update:


Quick results summary:
E1b-V13 Panel processing
Z5017 G-
Z5018 T+
S2979 T+
Z16659 A-
FGC33621 A-
FGC11450 A+
FGC11444 processing
Y146086 processing


E-FGC11450 deepest confirmed so far...

sojc
03-07-20, 18:36
Congrats sojc! So you are S2979 after all. Z16659- is important. So there are only 3 options, S2979* (not found thus far), FGC33621 which is diverse in the Balkans, and FGC11451 which is very widespread and has many Balkan but also Carpathian clades. Even one clade in Tatars. Interesting that they are testing FGC11450, skipping FGC11457, there are some FGC11457+, FGC11450- clades.

If you are FGC33621, then maybe there is some Marco Polo like event. If you are FGC11457 that is less likely and most likely your ancestor arrived from the West earlier.

At YSEQ below FGC33621 they test also for FGC33625 (Progon and Derite, Berisha-Sopi cluster), and A10158 (Cretan Greek, Macedonian, also one Greek from Macedonia is with this N.Macedonian), Bulgarian at YFull might be A10158+.

Below FGC11457 they test no less than 20 SNP's, and all important clades are covered.

Chances are you are some FGC11457, but we'll see..




FGC114570 confirmed so far. You are very smart ;)

sojc
03-07-20, 19:50
Thanks for all the info so far guys, so so very interesting! Another update:


Quick results summary:
E1b-V13 Panel processing
Z5017 G-
Z5018 T+
S2979 T+
Z16659 A-
FGC33621 A-
FGC11450 A+
FGC11444 processing
Y146086 processing


E-FGC11450 deepest confirmed so far...


Very interesting that later descendants of E-FGC11450 seemed to have split going north to Scandinavia, and back south to the Balkans/Italy. It is suspected that it may be as a result of the Europe's largest bronze age battle (and perhaps oldest known battlefield in Europe), the battle at Tollense River in 1250BC in northern Germany:

https://phylogeographer.com/e-fgc11457-bronze-age-migrations-from-the-balkans-to-scandinavia-via-poland/

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/03/slaughter-bridge-uncovering-colossal-bronze-age-battle

https://indo-european.eu/2017/10/the-tollense-valley-battlefield-the-north-european-trojan-war-that-hints-to-western-balto-slavic-origins/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tollense_valley_battlefield

Riverman
03-07-20, 20:43
I don't think Tollense had anything to do with it, but the time and similar events did have. Probably it was around that time or in the Iron Age that your ancestor moved with some R1a folks and other company to the East from the Carpathian region, while most of his cousins either stayed where they were, or moved up North or down South with Bronze and Iron Age transitions. But who knows, probably some cousins participated in that battle too :thinking:

Looks like a Northern route for you:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC11450/

sojc
03-07-20, 20:55
I don't think Tollense had anything to do with it, but the time and similar events did have. Probably it was around that time or in the Iron Age that your ancestor moved with some R1a folks and other company to the East from the Carpathian region, while most of his cousins either stayed where they were, or moved up North or down South with Bronze and Iron Age transitions. But who knows, probably some cousins participated in that battle too :thinking:

Looks like a Northern route for you:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC11450/

Will be very interesting to see what the terminal result will be. Guessing very different scenarios of how it got to Shandong province in eastern China if the terminal clade ends up in Sweden vs Russia vs back down to the Balkans/Italy...

Riverman
03-07-20, 22:49
Will be very interesting to see what the terminal result will be. Guessing very different scenarios of how it got to Shandong province in eastern China if the terminal clade ends up in Sweden vs Russia vs back down to the Balkans/Italy...

In the end this would just change probabilities, but won't decide the path your ancestors have taken, because they might belong to a branch moving South fairly late or splitting up, some East, some South. What's more decisive, but for that you must be either lucky or patient, is the TMRCA. If you are lucky you get a hit which nails it down, which is fairly close, if you don't, you have to be patient until someone close to you does a test. The TMRCA might be wrong in some individual cases, but it could give a frame. Like if its just 1000 BP with someone from Italy, Dalmatia or Greece, its quite likely some kind of "Marco Polo" did take a voyage, whereas if your closest match is a Russian, but 3000 years are between you and him, its more likely steppe riders made it in the Bronze or Iron Age to the East.
I'm still sticking to the early Indo-Europeans riding over the steppe, also because of the province. This province had numerous steppe influences, early and late, but little European contacts before very recent times - and I guess it would be known if one of your recent ancestors was (half-) European, your genetic results don't support that either. There are also other European, steppe people derived lineages there, so while rare, it wouldn't be alone.

Progon
03-07-20, 23:23
Very interesting that it ever made it that far, would not even guess it. I think i am more inclined into a Middle Ages ancestor who ended up there and decided to continue there.

sojc
03-07-20, 23:39
Very interesting that it ever made it that far, would not even guess it. I think i am more inclined into a Middle Ages ancestor who ended up there and decided to continue there.

I think it is more likely in the last 300-600 years as well. Since my dad and I both have roughly 0.4% autosomal European DNA, but each company says multiple different countries from Italy (23andMe) to Northwestern Europe (livingDNA) to Western Turkey (livingDNA) to Finland(myHeritage) to Spain (myHeritage).

I was hoping that if I could find a recent E-V13 branch, it might eventually help figure out if someone like an Italian Jesuit priest or Swedish/British trader might have brought it. Eventually as DNA testing gets more popular I hope to have a complete family tree through genetic match in my lifetime to that interesting story.

Riverman
03-07-20, 23:50
I think it is more likely in the last 300-600 years as well. Since my dad and I both have roughly 0.4% autosomal European DNA, but each company says multiple different countries from Italy (23andMe) to Northwestern Europe (livingDNA) to Western Turkey (livingDNA) to Finland(myHeritage) to Spain (myHeritage).

I was hoping that if I could find a recent E-V13 branch, it might eventually help figure out if someone like an Italian Jesuit priest or Swedish/British trader might have brought it. Eventually as DNA testing gets more popular I hope to have a complete family tree through genetic match in my lifetime to that interesting story.

You have to consider that you are not alone from that place with European yDNA and autosomal DNA as well. Would be really interesting to know how other people from the same region score on the tests you did. That the company-tests can't pint it down might even be in favour of "old Indo-European" DNA, because it is simply not specific to any modern European people. Or just too small segments.

There are really so many possibilities between the Bronze Age and modern times, how an European could have made it to Shandong - or probably not even to Shandong, but the already mostly East Asian ancestor moved inside of China. I really hope you get close matches.

sojc
04-07-20, 00:00
You have to consider that you are not alone from that place with European yDNA and autosomal DNA as well. Would be really interesting to know how other people from the same region score on the tests you did. That the company-tests can't pint it down might even be in favour of "old Indo-European" DNA, because it is simply not specific to any modern European people. Or just too small segments.

There are really so many possibilities between the Bronze Age and modern times, how an European could have made it to Shandong - or probably not even to Shandong, but the already mostly East Asian ancestor moved inside of China. I really hope you get close matches.

I checked all the male relatives on my dad's side on 23andMe who shared their yDNA info (roughly 10 very distance cousins all of Chinese descent living in America/Europe who used 23andMe), but none of them are E-V13 (they are all common Chinese groups like O).

My dad's family tree is largely lost due to the communist revolution, and I do not know relatives before my grandfather's generation. I can see how fragile E-V13 would be in that area of China, since my dad has 2 brothers, and I'm the only male of my generation since I have 1 sister and 5 female cousins. I have not even found evidence of other people with confirmed E-V13 in all of China yet on the internet, but unfortunately I don't speak Chinese so I can't read anything from Chinese forums/websites.

Riverman
04-07-20, 02:11
I checked all the male relatives on my dad's side on 23andMe who shared their yDNA info (roughly 10 very distance cousins all of Chinese descent living in America/Europe who used 23andMe), but none of them are E-V13 (they are all common Chinese groups like O).

My dad's family tree is largely lost due to the communist revolution, and I do not know relatives before my grandfather's generation. I can see how fragile E-V13 would be in that area of China, since my dad has 2 brothers, and I'm the only male of my generation since I have 1 sister and 5 female cousins. I have not even found evidence of other people with confirmed E-V13 in all of China yet on the internet, but unfortunately I don't speak Chinese so I can't read anything from Chinese forums/websites.

We can't know, but don't forget that even the major Indo-European haplogroup R1a is not that frequent in Chinese, but still, from the first glimpses we got, there might be hundreds of thousands to millions of Chinese with this haplogroup. If you take a fairly small sample from a region where its not common at all, you won't find it, even if its that significant. Something much smaller would be overlooked even more easily. You have the same issue here in Europe, rare clades from older layers or small scale migrations. Sometimes its pure chance they got found. Only the direct male lineage counts for the research. Some steppe groups moved from one end of Eurasia to the other within one generation, it was the ancient highway long before the first ships came from Europe to China.

For a comparison look at the data from Wikipedia again, its the Northern provinces which have R1a, J etc. more often:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_East_and_Southea st_Asia

Some percentages, and every percentage of some of these provinces means a lot, were designated as "unknown". I think its these Northern provinces which will harbour almost the full variation from Eastern Europe/the North Pontic steppe. On a fairly low level, more to the West, but spread out further.

Aspurg
14-07-20, 02:36
Congrats sojc on beign FGC11450+, plenty of SNP's still left in the Pack. Meanwhile you've got another Chinese E-Z5018. So you're not alone. :grin:
https://yfull.com/tree/E-Y154545/

This clade is bit basal at the Z5018 level.

Aspurg
14-07-20, 02:54
Also we've got first aDNA E-V13 on YFull: Hungarian from the same site as Bela III.

https://yfull.com/tree/E-Y58870/

They repeated the Arpad study and did the NGS for all the samples, they might do the same for the more recent Magyar Conqueror-Avar study which had more samples (few V13's too).

sojc
14-07-20, 06:11
Congrats sojc on beign FGC11450+, plenty of SNP's still left in the Pack. Meanwhile you've got another Chinese E-Z5018. So you're not alone. :grin:
https://yfull.com/tree/E-Y154545/

This clade is bit basal at the Z5018 level.


That's amazing, the exact same province my father's side is from too. Interesting I'm a different branch of E-V13 though, any theories how that could happen?


Here's my current progress so far for my panel:

Quick results summary:
E1b-V13 Panel processing
Z5017 G-
Z5018 T+
S2979 T+
Z16659 A-
FGC33621 A-
FGC11450 A+
FGC11444 G-
Y146086 G-
Y173822 processing
Y17747 processing

Aspurg
14-07-20, 13:08
That's amazing, the exact same province my father's side is from too. Interesting I'm a different branch of E-V13 though, any theories how that could happen?

The Polish person from that clade is from Southeast of Poland where combined with adjacent areas in Ukraine and other countries there is a significant diversity of V13, and even percentage (12 % in Ruthenians in one sample, around 14 % in Carpathian Ukrainians). So these were V13's bordering Steppe and it's possible this one was assimilated by a nomadic Iranic population.




Here's my current progress so far for my panel:

Quick results summary:
E1b-V13 Panel processing
Z5017 G-
Z5018 T+
S2979 T+
Z16659 A-
FGC33621 A-
FGC11450 A+
FGC11444 G-
Y146086 G-
Y173822 processing
Y17747 processing

So you are Y146086- and FGC11444-, both major subclades. Y146086 includes one Albanian cluster (E-Y140828), as well as few others in the Balkans. Now they are testing Y173822 (Albanian) and Y17747 (E-Y17356). If you are negative, the last SNP they will test is BY5004, which is at the E-Y58870 level with this new aDNA Hungarian sample.

I predicted based on 17 STR's two years ago this Hungarian will be E-FGC11450 and I was correct, it wasn't hard as their defining value is GATAH4=10. If you remain FGC11450* than it might be something similar to this Chinese E-Y154545 (though his analysis has just begun), might be the same with BY5004. Out of these options it seems you'd have to be Y173822+ for some "Marco Polo" like event.

EDIT: To add, At FTDNA there is E-Z21291, this is where Tatars are (Z21291>BY107571>FT156513) along with Westerners upstream. It seems this clade is not covered by YSEQ's Pack. These Tatars also have some related Bashkirs of this cluster without the NGS.

Progon
14-07-20, 13:54
Very interesting, wonder how did it get there. I must say that E-V13 spread should definitely be resolved by aDNA, we still don't know exactly how and from where exactly did it spread.

I personally, i am leaning toward Central Europe since it looks more logical to explain the spread. But, who knows.

sojc
14-07-20, 23:18
The Polish person from that clade is from Southeast of Poland where combined with adjacent areas in Ukraine and other countries there is a significant diversity of V13, and even percentage (12 % in Ruthenians in one sample, around 14 % in Carpathian Ukrainians). So these were V13's bordering Steppe and it's possible this one was assimilated by a nomadic Iranic population.




So you are Y146086- and FGC11444-, both major subclades. Y146086 includes one Albanian cluster (E-Y140828), as well as few others in the Balkans. Now they are testing Y173822 (Albanian) and Y17747 (E-Y17356). If you are negative, the last SNP they will test is BY5004, which is at the E-Y58870 level with this new aDNA Hungarian sample.

I predicted based on 17 STR's two years ago this Hungarian will be E-FGC11450 and I was correct, it wasn't hard as their defining value is GATAH4=10. If you remain FGC11450* than it might be something similar to this Chinese E-Y154545 (though his analysis has just begun), might be the same with BY5004. Out of these options it seems you'd have to be Y173822+ for some "Marco Polo" like event.

EDIT: To add, At FTDNA there is E-Z21291, this is where Tatars are (Z21291>BY107571>FT156513) along with Westerners upstream. It seems this clade is not covered by YSEQ's Pack. These Tatars also have some related Bashkirs of this cluster without the NGS.


Just got a new update right now, you know your stuff ;)


Quick results summary:
E1b-V13 Panel processing
Z5017 G-
Z5018 T+
S2979 T+
Z16659 A-
FGC33621 A-
FGC11450 A+
FGC11444 G-
Y146086 G-
Y173822 C-
Y17747 processing
BY5004 processing

Aspurg
14-07-20, 23:46
Just got a new update right now, you know your stuff ;)


Quick results summary:
E1b-V13 Panel processing
Z5017 G-
Z5018 T+
S2979 T+
Z16659 A-
FGC33621 A-
FGC11450 A+
FGC11444 G-
Y146086 G-
Y173822 C-
Y17747 processing
BY5004 processing


So Y173822- as well. They have some other SNP's at that level but it's still relatively old, so Marco Polo scenario is likely out. As I said BY5004 is the last SNP they will test. There is a chance you might be positive for one of them. Z21291 is the one remaining out, but it can be added to YSEQ on request like any SNP (though they have some standards of their own that it must pass). Here, positions in hg19 and hg38.

https://www.genetichomeland.com/welcome/dnamarkerindex.asp?chromosome=Y&snp=Z21291

rafc
15-07-20, 19:16
Unfortunately FGC11450 is not a lot below V13. You should consider doing Big Y at FTDNA to have a better idea of where you fit on the tree.

sojc
17-07-20, 17:20
Final results are in:

"Quick results summary:
E1b-V13 Panel
Z5017 G-
Z5018 T+
S2979 T+
Z16659 A-
FGC33621 A-
FGC11450 A+
FGC11444 G-
Y146086 G-
Y173822 C-
Y17747 T-
BY5004 C-

Most specific position on the YFull YTree is E-FGC11450

You are negative for all known downstream SNPs"


So it appears I'm E-FGC11450, wonder how to best interpret this...

Aspurg
17-07-20, 20:39
Final results are in:

"Quick results summary:
E1b-V13 Panel
Z5017 G-
Z5018 T+
S2979 T+
Z16659 A-
FGC33621 A-
FGC11450 A+
FGC11444 G-
Y146086 G-
Y173822 C-
Y17747 T-
BY5004 C-

Most specific position on the YFull YTree is E-FGC11450

You are negative for all known downstream SNPs"


So it appears I'm E-FGC11450, wonder how to best interpret this...

Well I'd say something similar to the other Chinese, I think Z5018 clades, especially more basal ones were definitely present in the MBA, LBA on the Steppe border. These results just make it more obvious. You can try adding and testing the last SNP Z21291. Maybe after BigY you end up sharing an SNP with some of these clades that have lower TMRCA, that's just maybe.. If you still remain FGC11450* then definitely looks like what I've been saying.

sojc
23-07-20, 11:35
Well I'd say something similar to the other Chinese, I think Z5018 clades, especially more basal ones were definitely present in the MBA, LBA on the Steppe border. These results just make it more obvious. You can try adding and testing the last SNP Z21291. Maybe after BigY you end up sharing an SNP with some of these clades that have lower TMRCA, that's just maybe.. If you still remain FGC11450* then definitely looks like what I've been saying.


Fascinating. I will probably hold on more testing for a few more years to let the panels get more detailed for my next one. Until then I will be very alert to any further E-V13 near my branch in Asia.

Any updates on that other Chinese E-V13 Z5018 you mentioned earlier who was still processing?

Aspurg
25-07-20, 16:08
Fascinating. I will probably hold on more testing for a few more years to let the panels get more detailed for my next one. Until then I will be very alert to any further E-V13 near my branch in Asia.

Any updates on that other Chinese E-V13 Z5018 you mentioned earlier who was still processing?

Apparently his analysis is completed, but we have to wait for the next update of the tree to see the details. Well it is sure to get more diversified. And as we recently had two Chinese, I expect at least few more.

As you have an account there, I still recommend you try the remaining SNP not in the YSEQ pack, as adding an SNP costs 1 $ and testing just 18 $:
http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=108


Z21291
Haplogroup: E
Reference Sequence: hg38/GRCh38
20536888 T to C

sojc
27-07-20, 01:53
Apparently his analysis is completed, but we have to wait for the next update of the tree to see the details. Well it is sure to get more diversified. And as we recently had two Chinese, I expect at least few more.

As you have an account there, I still recommend you try the remaining SNP not in the YSEQ pack, as adding an SNP costs 1 $ and testing just 18 $:
http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=108


Z21291
Haplogroup: E
Reference Sequence: hg38/GRCh38
20536888 T to C



Ok I just ordered it, thanks so much for the help, and am waiting back on their reply to do it. :good_job:

sojc
30-07-20, 10:13
Apparently his analysis is completed, but we have to wait for the next update of the tree to see the details. Well it is sure to get more diversified. And as we recently had two Chinese, I expect at least few more.

As you have an account there, I still recommend you try the remaining SNP not in the YSEQ pack, as adding an SNP costs 1 $ and testing just 18 $:
http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=108


Z21291
Haplogroup: E
Reference Sequence: hg38/GRCh38
20536888 T to C


So they are testing for Z21291 as we speak, but I also noticed on ftDNA there are also 3 other branches of FCG11450. If I test negative for Z21291, should I also test individually for the other 3?

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/E;name=E-Z21291

Aspurg
30-07-20, 19:15
So they are testing for Z21291 as we speak, but I also noticed on ftDNA there are also 3 other branches of FCG11450. If I test negative for Z21291, should I also test individually for the other 3?

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/E;name=E-Z21291

Good luck this clade is present in the Eastern areas.

Yes, you tested FGC11444, BY5004, Y17747, parallel clades below BY4793 and FGC11465 level. These SNP's have not been registered by YFull yet.

Also below there is BY4856 parallel to other FGC11450 clades.

You tested BY5004, but at the FTDNA this SNP is below BY4991 and BY4998, so these two are older SNP's.

A. BY4793/FGC11465 level
A1 BY4991/BY4998 level, you are negative for BY5004 below them

B. BY4856/BY61548 level

So you might try BY4793/FGC11465, no sense testing BY4991 unless you are BY4793+. All of these can be found here:
https://www.genetichomeland.com/welcome/dnamarkerindex.asp

You just search for them. So there are still options around. In many ways that's why the BigY/NGS is the best, it will find your position. You can of course search for your position this way, and if you are lucky enough you might find it. Tricky part is when you have multiple SNP's at one level, while you might be negative for one, chance remains you are positive for some other SNP even if unlikely (statistically if you are negative for 1, chances are good you are negative for at least half of others). The "best" clades are those defined by just 1 SNP or few SNP's.

So some plausible paths after Z21291 could be BY4793, BY4856, BY4991 (only if BY4793+).