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bicicleur
28-05-20, 18:45
Here, we report genome-wide data analyses from 110 ancient Near Eastern individuals spanning the Late Neolithic to Late Bronze Age, a period characterized by intense interregional interactions for the Near East. We find that 6 th millennium BCE populations of North/Central Anatolia and the Southern Caucasus shared mixed ancestry on a genetic cline that formed during the Neolithic between Western Anatolia and regions in today’s Southern Caucasus/Zagros. During the Late Chalcolithic and/or the Early Bronze Age, more than half of the Northern Levantine gene pool was replaced, while in the rest of Anatolia and the Southern Caucasus, we document genetic continuity with only transient gene flow. Additionally, we reveal a genetically distinct individual within the Late Bronze Age Northern Levant. Overall, our study uncovers multiple scales of population dynamics through time, from extensive admixture during the Neolithic period to long-distance mobility within the globalized societies of the Late Bronze Age.

https://www.cell.com/cell/pdf/S0092-8674(20)30509-2.pdf?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier .com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0092867420305092%3Fshowal l%3Dtrue&fbclid=IwAR30lhAiiJlVo_ItvxtjMuLGWfxiStk27qI--flIkfbpvAZNATQR4-uDoSM

Jovialis
28-05-20, 19:26
https://i.imgur.com/BmrQGL8.png

Very interesting, I would like to check out the BAM files once I can.

So in the late-Bronze Age, a new distinct un-sampled ancestral component was introduced into the Northern Levant, from possibly Mesopotamia. I guess that extra component is what differentiates Levantines from the prior Anatolian-Caucasian ancestral cline that goes back to 6500 BC.

Palermo Trapani
28-05-20, 19:27
Here, we report genome-wide data analyses from 110 ancient Near Eastern individuals spanning the Late Neolithic to Late Bronze Age, a period characterized by intense interregional interactions for the Near East. We find that 6 th millennium BCE populations of North/Central Anatolia and the Southern Caucasus shared mixed ancestry on a genetic cline that formed during the Neolithic between Western Anatolia and regions in today’s Southern Caucasus/Zagros. During the Late Chalcolithic and/or the Early Bronze Age, more than half of the Northern Levantine gene pool was replaced, while in the rest of Anatolia and the Southern Caucasus, we document genetic continuity with only transient gene flow. Additionally, we reveal a genetically distinct individual within the Late Bronze Age Northern Levant. Overall, our study uncovers multiple scales of population dynamics through time, from extensive admixture during the Neolithic period to long-distance mobility within the globalized societies of the Late Bronze Age.
https://www.cell.com/cell/pdf/S0092-8674(20)30509-2.pdf?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier .com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0092867420305092%3Fshowal l%3Dtrue&fbclid=IwAR30lhAiiJlVo_ItvxtjMuLGWfxiStk27qI--flIkfbpvAZNATQR4-uDoSM

Many thanks for linking this paper. Definitely one I am going to read.

kingjohn
28-05-20, 19:30
bummer that there is no access
to the supplemental ..... :(

Regio X
28-05-20, 19:38
bummer that there is no access
to the supplemental ..... :(Neither here: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867420305092

Angela
28-05-20, 19:55
https://i.imgur.com/BmrQGL8.png

Very interesting, I would like to check out the BAM files once I can.

So in the late-Bronze Age, a new distinct un-sampled ancestral component was introduced into the Northern Levant, from possibly Mesopotamia. I guess that extra component is what differentiates Levantines from the prior Anatolian-Caucasian ancestral cline that goes back to 6500 BC.

I'm finding the map a little difficult to understand. The ultimate source of that movement to the Levant seems to be Iran, so I immediately thought Iran Neo. I'm not sure of the dates, however. If you look at when the arrow "arrives" in the Levant, it's very, very early, fourth millennium at least. It may have been mediated by Mesopotamia indeed, but they haven't determined their genetic make up.

The Anatolia centered one is clear and known: Anatolian Neolithic went both west and east; west into Europe and east into the Southern Caucasus.

Maybe the paper explains it more clearly.

kingjohn
28-05-20, 20:02
Neither here: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867420305092

correct
there are 3 options ::thinking:
access via your institutional email
access via your institutional login
purchase PDF 31.50$

Jovialis
28-05-20, 20:04
correct
there are 3 options ::thinking:
access via your institutional email
access via your institutional login
purchase PDF 31.50$

I couldn't find the BAM files on ENA either.

bicicleur
28-05-20, 20:48
fwiw I got this
12112

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=12112

bicicleur
28-05-20, 21:03
6500 BC wasn't that the period of Tepecik-Ciftlik?
It is also the time Anatolian farmers arrived in Barcin/Mentese.
Apart from G2a2a and C1a2, some T, J and H2 had joined.

Angela
28-05-20, 21:37
I'm surprised by all the G2a2 in more recent periods. Lots of J1 in the earlier periods. Where's all the J2a?

Angela
28-05-20, 21:39
I'm finding the map a little difficult to understand. The ultimate source of that movement to the Levant seems to be Iran, so I immediately thought Iran Neo. I'm not sure of the dates, however. If you look at when the arrow "arrives" in the Levant, it's very, very early, fourth millennium at least. It may have been mediated by Mesopotamia indeed, but they haven't determined their genetic make up.

The Anatolia centered one is clear and known: Anatolian Neolithic went both west and east; west into Europe and east into the Southern Caucasus.

Maybe the paper explains it more clearly.

If it arrived in the northern Levant (Northern Syria) 4th to 5th millennium, some of it might have gotten into certain stages of the Neolithic advance.

"Levant" shows up in Mycenaean on all the calculators we've been using, yes? Anybody have that graphic handy where European Jews are on the PCA along with Mycenaeans and Italians, Greeks etc. and the calculator results showing that?

Palermo Trapani
28-05-20, 22:08
I'm surprised by all the G2a2 in more recent periods. Lots of J1 in the earlier periods. Where's all the J2a?

Angela/Others: I went through the excel spreadsheet and quickly surveyed the Y-DNA Haplogroups. As I have noted in other threads, more of something I have just started getting into so I am going to give a "readers digest summary" as posters in this thread are much more in tune with Y-DNA Haps and related sub-clades. Anway, of I think the 94 samples, these are the Y-Haplogroups, without any consideration for periods.

J2 =12
G/G1 = 9
J1 = 8
H2 = 4
T1 =2
E1b1b =2
CT=1
R1b = 1
L2 =1

If there something else anyone needs, let me know and assuming not violating any board protocol, I will post what I can as clear as possible.

Regards, PT

Angela
28-05-20, 22:12
I wonder if one of those G's is the Ashkenazi G clade, or Sephardi for that matter.

Context is going to be important here. Were they all found in definitely "local", Canaanite graves?

Palermo Trapani
28-05-20, 22:30
I wonder if one of those G's is the Ashkenazi G clade, or Sephardi for that matter.

Context is going to be important here. Were they all found in definitely "local", Canaanite graves?

I apologize but there are actually 11 G Y-DNA Haplogroups. My eyes are not what they use to be. I don't know if this will help but

G=1
G1=1
G2a2b1a=3
G2a2b1=3
G2a=1
G2a2=1
G2ab1=1

Got a zoom meeting with a colleague to go to but if there is anything else that you need that I can add clarification, please let me know

Buona Serrata, PT

kingjohn
28-05-20, 22:54
ALA001 J1a2a1a2d2b2b2~ CTS11741/PF4847
ALA002 J1a2a1a2d2b2b2~ CTS11741/PF4847
ALA004 J2a1a1a2b2a1b~ PF4843/Z2324
ALA008 H2 P96
ALA011 J2a1a1a2b2a PF5126/Z1847
ALA014 J2b1 M205
ALA015 T1a1a CTS11451
ALA018 J1a2a1a2d2b2b2~ CTS11741/PF4847
ALA026 J1a2a1a2d2b2b2~ CTS11741/PF4847
ALA035 J1a2a1a2d2b2b2~ CTS11741/PF4847
ALA084 L2 L595
ALA095 J2b2~ CTS6812/Z2454
ALX002 G1 M342
ART001 J2a1a1a2b2a1 PF5132
ART004 G M201/PF2957
ART011 J2a1a1a2b2a PF5126/Z1847
ART014 G2a2b1 M406/PF3285
ART015 E1b1b1b2a1a1~ CTS4483/L795
ART017 J2a1a1a2b2a PF5126/Z1847
ART018 J1a2b1~ Z1842
ART019 J2a1a1a2b2a1 PF5132
ART020 J2a1a F4326/L27/PF5111/S396
ART022 J2a1a1a2b2a PF5126/Z1847
ART023 J2a1a F4326/L27/PF5111/S396
ART024 G2a2b1 M406/PF3285
ART027 J2a1a1a2b1b M319
ART032 H2 P96
ART038 R1b1a2 V1636
ART042 H2 P96
CBT005 G2a2b1 M406/PF3285
CBT013 G2a2b1a FGC5089/Y2729
CBT014 G2a2b1a FGC5089/Y2729
CBT015 G2a2b1a FGC5089/Y2729
ETM001 J1a2a1a2 P58/Page8/PF4698
ETM005 J1a2a1a2 P58/Page8/PF4698
ETM010 E1b1b1b2a1a1~ CTS4483/L795
ETM012 J1a2a1a2d2b~ CTS5266/PF4870/Z2321
ETM018 G2a P287/PF3140
ETM026 T1a1 L162/Page21
IKI024 J2a1 PF4610
IKI037 G2a2b1 M406/PF3285
KRD001 H2 P96
KRD002 G2a2 CTS4367/L1259/M3308/PF2970
KRD003 J1a2a~ AM01306/CTS1797/PF4689/Z2356
KRD005 CT -NA- low coverage
TIT021 J2b M12

P.s
Thats from the other forum i guess someone there has access or he paid the 31.50$😉
And the
2 e1b1b1 belong to E- m34-m84 (like armenia bronze age rize423)👍

Palermo Trapani
29-05-20, 00:16
Kingjohn: Not sure if Mtdna was posted in the other forum your were referring to but here are the Mtdna Haplogroups if anyone is interested.

Individual ID Haplogroup
ALA001 X2
ALA002 N1a3a2
ALA004 X2e2a
ALA008 H6a1b
ALA009 J1c3
ALA011 X2d
ALA013 H47
ALA014 H14b
ALA015 K1a
ALA016 I2
ALA017 U1a1d
ALA018 HV1b3b
ALA019 H2a3
ALA020 H6a
ALA023 N1b1a
ALA024 U3b
ALA025 H
ALA026 T1a
ALA028 K1a17
ALA029 T2
ALA030 H5a1j
ALA034 H13a2b2
ALA035 H20a
ALA037 W3b
ALA038 J1b3b1
ALA039 K1a+150
ALA095 HV
ALX002 K1a12a1a
ART001 H14b3
ART004 H
ART005 J1c
ART009 K1a28
ART010 U8b1a1
ART011 T2c1
ART012 N1a1a1a
ART014 [email protected]
ART015 U1a1d
ART017 T2c1+146
ART018 H14a+146
ART019 K1a3
ART020 J1c16
ART022 J1c
ART023 U3b1
ART024 [email protected]
ART026 K1a8b
ART027 T1
ART032 N1b1a2
ART038 K1a17a
ART039 I5a
ART042 T1b
CBT001 T2b
CBT002 K1a3
CBT004 HV1
CBT005 K1a
CBT010 K1a
CBT011 K1a
CBT013 HV1
CBT014 H5
CBT015 U3a2
CBT016 K1a3
CBT017 K1a3
CBT018 X2
ETM006 U3b3
ETM010 J1b1b1
ETM012 T2c1+146
ETM014 U3b2a1
ETM016 U8b1a2b
ETM018 J1b1b1
ETM023 H14a
ETM026 K1a4
IKI002 J1c16
IKI009 J2a1
IKI016 I5
IKI024 U1b1
IKI034 K1a17
IKI036 J2b1c
IKI038 X1'2'3
MTT001 U7
POT002 H13a2b

Ailchu
29-05-20, 01:26
I'm finding the map a little difficult to understand. The ultimate source of that movement to the Levant seems to be Iran, so I immediately thought Iran Neo. I'm not sure of the dates, however. If you look at when the arrow "arrives" in the Levant, it's very, very early, fourth millennium at least. It may have been mediated by Mesopotamia indeed, but they haven't determined their genetic make up.

The Anatolia centered one is clear and known: Anatolian Neolithic went both west and east; west into Europe and east into the Southern Caucasus.

Maybe the paper explains it more clearly.

taking the other new paper about southern levant into consideration which found Caucasus/Zagros like ancestry in the bronze age it's probably Caucasus/Zagros iran ChL like here too.
https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(20)30487-6

Angela
29-05-20, 01:59
ALA001 J1a2a1a2d2b2b2~ CTS11741/PF4847
ALA002 J1a2a1a2d2b2b2~ CTS11741/PF4847
ALA004 J2a1a1a2b2a1b~ PF4843/Z2324
ALA008 H2 P96
ALA011 J2a1a1a2b2a PF5126/Z1847
ALA014 J2b1 M205
ALA015 T1a1a CTS11451
ALA018 J1a2a1a2d2b2b2~ CTS11741/PF4847
ALA026 J1a2a1a2d2b2b2~ CTS11741/PF4847
ALA035 J1a2a1a2d2b2b2~ CTS11741/PF4847
ALA084 L2 L595
ALA095 J2b2~ CTS6812/Z2454
ALX002 G1 M342
ART001 J2a1a1a2b2a1 PF5132
ART004 G M201/PF2957
ART011 J2a1a1a2b2a PF5126/Z1847
ART014 G2a2b1 M406/PF3285
ART015 E1b1b1b2a1a1~ CTS4483/L795
ART017 J2a1a1a2b2a PF5126/Z1847
ART018 J1a2b1~ Z1842
ART019 J2a1a1a2b2a1 PF5132
ART020 J2a1a F4326/L27/PF5111/S396
ART022 J2a1a1a2b2a PF5126/Z1847
ART023 J2a1a F4326/L27/PF5111/S396
ART024 G2a2b1 M406/PF3285
ART027 J2a1a1a2b1b M319
ART032 H2 P96
ART038 R1b1a2 V1636
ART042 H2 P96
CBT005 G2a2b1 M406/PF3285
CBT013 G2a2b1a FGC5089/Y2729
CBT014 G2a2b1a FGC5089/Y2729
CBT015 G2a2b1a FGC5089/Y2729
ETM001 J1a2a1a2 P58/Page8/PF4698
ETM005 J1a2a1a2 P58/Page8/PF4698
ETM010 E1b1b1b2a1a1~ CTS4483/L795
ETM012 J1a2a1a2d2b~ CTS5266/PF4870/Z2321
ETM018 G2a P287/PF3140
ETM026 T1a1 L162/Page21
IKI024 J2a1 PF4610
IKI037 G2a2b1 M406/PF3285
KRD001 H2 P96
KRD002 G2a2 CTS4367/L1259/M3308/PF2970
KRD003 J1a2a~ AM01306/CTS1797/PF4689/Z2356
KRD005 CT -NA- low coverage
TIT021 J2b M12
P.s
Thats from the other forum i guess someone there has access or he paid the 31.50$������
And the
2 e1b1b1 belong to E- m34-m84 (like armenia bronze age rize423)������

Thanks.

Do you know how much G2a2 is in the area today? I know that in the Levant as a whole it's not very frequent, is it?

Do you think they support the contention of the authors of a change in the Iron Age?

Angela
29-05-20, 03:22
I should have read the abstract and highlights more carefully.



•Gene pools of Anatolia and Caucasus were biologically connected ∼6500 BCE

•Gene flow from neighboring populations in Northern Levant during 3 rd millennium BCE

•One individual of likely Central Asian origin in 2 nd millennium BCE Northern Levant

I guess that Northern Mesopotamia was the best guess for a proximate source.

This is the Early Dynastic period in Mesopotamia. Uruk was just before it. They had city states, had developed writing, had bronze tools and weapons and ultimately most of Mesopotamia was unified under Sargon to create the Akkadian Empire. We know a lot about the Sumerian cities of Uruk, Ur etc. but not so much about northern Mesopoatamia.

I wonder if Ebla has something to do with this?

"Ebla (Sumerian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumer): 𒌈𒆷 eb₂-la,[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebla#cite_note-1) Arabic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language): إبلا‎, modern: تل مرديخ, Tell Mardikh) was one of the earliest kingdoms in Syria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria). Its remains constitute a tell (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tell_(archaeology)) located about 55 km (34 mi) southwest of Aleppo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleppo) near the village of Mardikh (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mardikh). Ebla was an important center throughout the 3rd millennium BC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3rd_millennium_BC) and in the first half of the 2nd millennium BC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2nd_millennium_BC). Its discovery proved the Levant (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levant) was a center of ancient, centralized civilization equal to Egypt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egypt) and Mesopotamia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamia) and ruled out the view that the latter two were the only important centers in the Near East (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Near_East) during the Early Bronze Age (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age). The first Eblaite kingdom has been described as the first recorded world power.
Starting as a small settlement in the Early Bronze Age (c. 3500 BC), Ebla developed into a trading empire and later into an expansionist power that imposed its hegemony over much of northern and eastern Syria. Ebla was destroyed during the 23rd century BC; it was then rebuilt and was mentioned in the records of the Third Dynasty of Ur (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Dynasty_of_Ur). The second Ebla was a continuation of the first, ruled by a new royal dynasty. It was destroyed at the end of the 3rd millennium BC, which paved the way for the Amorite (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amorite) tribes to settle in the city, forming the third Ebla. The third kingdom also flourished as a trade center; it became a subject and an ally of Yamhad (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamhad) (modern-day Aleppo) until its final destruction by the Hittite (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites) king Mursili I (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mursili_I) in c. 1600 BC."

"The kingdom had its own language, Eblaite (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eblaite_language), and the political organization of Ebla had features different from the Sumerian model. Women enjoyed a special status, and the queen had major influence in the state and religious affairs. The pantheon of gods was mainly north Semitic and included deities exclusive to Ebla. The city was excavated starting in 1964 and became famous for the Ebla tablets (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebla_tablets), an archive of about 20,000 cuneiform (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuneiform) tablets found there, dated to around 2350 BC.[note 1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebla#cite_note-2) Written in both Sumerian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_language) and Eblaite and using the cuneiform (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuneiform), the archive has allowed a better understanding of the Sumerian language and provided important information over the political organization and social customs of the mid-3rd millennium BC's Levant."

"Ebla was first settled around 3500 BC;
[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebla#cite_note-FOOTNOTEHamblin2006[httpsbooksgooglecombooksidbiyDDd0uKGMCpgPT239_241]-5)[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebla#cite_note-FOOTNOTEShaw1999[httpsbooksgooglecombooksid8HKDtlPuM2oCpgPA211_211]-6) its growth was supported by many satellite agricultural settlements.[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebla#cite_note-FOOTNOTEHamblin2006[httpsbooksgooglecombooksidbiyDDd0uKGMCpgPT239_241]-5) The city benefited from its role as an entrepôt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrep%C3%B4t) of growing international trade, which probably began with an increased demand for wool in Sumer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumer).[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebla#cite_note-FOOTNOTEHamblin2006[httpsbooksgooglecombooksidbiyDDd0uKGMCpgPT239_241]-5) Archaeologists designate this early habitation period "Mardikh I"; it ended around 3000 BC.[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebla#cite_note-FOOTNOTELeick2009[httpsbooksgooglecombooksidjhbSbuplQ28CpgPA54_54]-7) Mardikh I is followed by the first and second kingdoms era between about 3000 and 2000 BC, designated "Mardikh II".[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebla#cite_note-FOOTNOTEMatthiae2013a[httpsbooksgooglecombooksidAaZg0ypYrnQCpgPA37_37]-8) I. J. Gelb (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I._J._Gelb) consider Ebla as part of the Kish civilization (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kish_civilization), which was a cultural entity of East Semitic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Semitic_languages)-speaking populations that stretched from the center of Mesopotamia to the western Levant.[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebla#cite_note-FOOTNOTEVan_De_Mieroop2002[httpsbooksgooglecombooksid6lDgYxV0DN8CpgPA133_133]-9)"

Maybe that answers some of my questions. So, were these people from perhaps central Mesopotamia there already by 3500 BC or did they arrive later to set up the "kingdoms" in 3,000 BC, or quite a bit later in 2300 BC when the archaeology indicates that the palace in Ebla was destroyed, and much of the acropolis? That was at the hands of Mari, a city on the western bank of the Euphrates.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/81/Second_Eblaite_Empire.png/640px-Second_Eblaite_Empire.png


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/Kingdom_of_Ebla.png

Ygorcs
29-05-20, 08:14
Wow it's really great they got samples from BA Ebla. That must be as close as we're likely to get from the earliest Semitic speakers, particularly East Semites.

Ygorcs
29-05-20, 08:20
ART038 R1b1a2 V1636


This one is really interesting. Where and when is it from? R1b-V1636 was found IIRC in Chalcolithic Armenia as well as in the Chalcolithic Southern Pontic-Caspian Steppe (Progress/Vonyuchka), and some have already speculated it might have something to do with the early split of Anatolian IE from the rest of the IE family.

Ygorcs
29-05-20, 08:35
In this video (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867420305092) one of the researchers involved in this new paper, Eirini Skourtanioti, explains that the big changes in the Northern Levant are likely to have come from an unsampled population in Northern Mesopotamia. I find that particularly exciting to know, because I have long thought that the most likely source of the Proto-Semitic expansion was not the Levant, let alone the southern Levant, but Northern Mesopotamia, on the crossroads between the Levant, Anatolia, Caucasus and Zagros. I had reached this conclusion in this thread some time ago:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/38235-Movements-and-genetic-change-between-the-Chalcolithic-and-Bronze-Age-in-the-Levant

Progon
29-05-20, 09:43
In this video (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867420305092) one of the researchers involved in this new paper, Eirini Skourtanioti, explains that the big changes in the Northern Levant are likely to have come from an unsampled population in Northern Mesopotamia. I find that particularly exciting to know, because I have long thought that the most likely source of the Proto-Semitic expansion was not the Levant, let alone the southern Levant, but Northern Mesopotamia, on the crossroads between the Levant, Anatolia, Caucasus and Zagros. I had reached this conclusion in this thread some time ago:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/38235-Movements-and-genetic-change-between-the-Chalcolithic-and-Bronze-Age-in-the-Levant

How do u explain with that, Afro-Asiatic language family origin?

kingjohn
29-05-20, 10:00
This one is really interesting. Where and when is it from? R1b-V1636 was found IIRC in Chalcolithic Armenia as well as in the Chalcolithic Southern Pontic-Caspian Steppe (Progress/Vonyuchka), and some have already speculated it might have something to do with the early split of Anatolian IE from the rest of the IE family.

Arslantepe site in moden day south turkey:thinking:

Anfänger
29-05-20, 11:30
Interesting paper ! I hope there will be open access version soon. Arslantepe R1b-V1636 the same subclade like one Eneolithic Steppe guy without any autosomal steppe ancestry. His dates will be interesting.

Edit: Date for ART038: 3361-3105 cal BCE.

Olympus Mons
29-05-20, 11:32
Well, I paid the 31 USD because the video indicated that they had Shulaveri-Shomu... when in fact, not really.
but it wasn't all to waste. So my first comments are.
the Good:
a. they do have DNA from a boy in Mentesh Tepe from 5500bc (so, date is good), but really could only extract Mtdna. So U7 is added to the MTdna of Shulaveri that have H2+152, H15a1, I1 and now U7.
b. they do give an explanation why they can't get their hands on Shulaveri-Shomu samples... The french have them (mostly) all.

the bad:
The Shulaveri boy does plot on PCA as a bit of a stand out being a mix of Barcin and CHG . but even while they state that the Shulaveri boy was from a very different culture they bundle him with the baby in Polutepe, south of Baku (Azerbaijan) that should have much more Iran_N (as opposed to other CHG types).

Anyway, too many meetings today, but will try to read carefully later.
Anyone here can help with the Shulaveri boy BAM file when it becomes available (would be much appreciated).

Anfänger
29-05-20, 11:39
Well, I paid the 31 USD because the video indicated that they had Shulaveri-Shomu... when in fact, not really.
but it wasn't all to waste. So my first comments are.
the Good:
a. they do have DNA from a boy in Mentesh Tepe from 5500bc (so, date is good), but really could only extract Mtdna. So U7 is added to the MTdna of Shulaveri that have H2+152, H15a1, I1 and now U7.
b. they do give an explanation why they can't get their hands on Shulaveri-Shomu samples... The french have them (mostly) all.

the bad:
The Shulaveri boy does plot on PCA as a bit of a stand out being a mix of Barcin and CHG . but even while they state that the Shulaveri boy was from a very different culture they bundle him with the baby in Polutepe, south of Baku (Azerbaijan) that should have much more Iran_N (as opposed to other CHG types).

Anyway, too many meetings today, but will try to read carefully later.
Anyone here can help with the Shulaveri boy BAM file when it becomes available (would be much appreciated).

I told you Shulaveri Shomu will be too late to be the source of the southern component in the Steppe. They have plenty of Iran Hajji-Firuz Chalcolithic. This ancestry spreads all over the Middle East.

Angela
29-05-20, 14:41
In this video (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867420305092) one of the researchers involved in this new paper, Eirini Skourtanioti, explains that the big changes in the Northern Levant are likely to have come from an unsampled population in Northern Mesopotamia. I find that particularly exciting to know, because I have long thought that the most likely source of the Proto-Semitic expansion was not the Levant, let alone the southern Levant, but Northern Mesopotamia, on the crossroads between the Levant, Anatolia, Caucasus and Zagros. I had reached this conclusion in this thread some time ago:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/38235-Movements-and-genetic-change-between-the-Chalcolithic-and-Bronze-Age-in-the-Levant

Yes, you were right.

It always made more sense to me: pastoralism went north-south, J1 went north-south. Why would language have the opposite trajectory?

Well, well, perhaps another one where most of anthrogenica got it completely wrong.

kingjohn
29-05-20, 15:27
Thanks.

Do you know how much G2a2 is in the area today? I know that in the Levant as a whole it's not very frequent, is it?

Do you think they support the contention of the authors of a change in the Iron Age?



you welcome :)
i don't know enough on haplogroup G subclades :thinking:

dates of the sites :smile:

12117
Lab individual ID Archaeological Site Name 14C age (BP) ± Cal 1 sigma Cal 2 sigma
( source: from other forum)

ALA001 Alalakh3151 24 cal BCE 1486-1407 cal BCE 1496-1325
ALA002 Alalakh3158 22 cal BCE 1487-1412 cal BCE 1496-1401
ALA004 Alalakh3507 23 cal BCE 1883-1776 cal BCE 1895-1752
ALA008 Alalakh3473 23 cal BCE 1875-1748 cal BCE 1881-1700
ALA011 Alalakh3382 23 cal BCE 1729-1641 cal BCE 1741-1624
ALA013 Alalakh3457 24 cal BCE 1870-1698 cal BCE 1878-1693
ALA014 Alalakh3392 23 cal BCE 1737-1646 cal BCE 1743-1630
ALA015 Alalakh3566 26 cal BCE 1944-1887 cal BCE 2014-1781
ALA016 Alalakh3284 24 cal BCE 1609-1528 cal BCE 1617-1506
ALA017 Alalakh3264 23 cal BCE 1605-1504 cal BCE 1614-1466
ALA018 Alalakh3154 26 cal BCE 1490-1409 cal BCE 1497-1326
ALA019 Alalakh3298 23 cal BCE 1613-1534 cal BCE 1625-1511
ALA020 Alalakh3167 29 cal BCE 1493-1415 cal BCE 1502-1395
ALA023 Alalakh3520 25 cal BCE 1892-1776 cal BCE 1921-1763
ALA024 Alalakh3586 39 cal BCE 2010-1891 cal BCE 2111-1779
ALA025 Alalakh3443 25 cal BCE 1862-1693 cal BCE 1877-1686
ALA026 Alalakh3390 25 cal BCE 1736-1645 cal BCE 1744-1628
ALA028 Alalakh3440 26 cal BCE 1858-1692 cal BCE 1877-1666
ALA029 Alalakh3465 26 cal BCE 1873-1702 cal BCE 1880-1695
ALA030 Alalakh3256 25 cal BCE 1605-1499 cal BCE 1612-1457
ALA034 Alalakh3436 24 cal BCE 1763-1692 cal BCE 1874-1666
ALA035 Alalakh3543 24 cal BCE 1930-1784 cal BCE 1948-1774
ALA037 Alalakh3477 24 cal BCE 1876-1750 cal BCE 1882-1701
ALA038 Alalakh3260 24 cal BCE 1605-1501 cal BCE 1613-1461
ALA039 Alalakh3125 24 cal BCE 1431-1324 cal BCE 1448-1303
ALA084 Alalakh3556 25 cal BCE 1941-1883 cal BCE 2006-1777
ALA095 Alalakh3516 25 cal BCE 1889-1776 cal BCE 1913-1756
ART001 Arslantepe3908 26 cal BCE 2465-2348 cal BCE 2470-2301
ART004 Arslantepe4906 26 cal BCE 3696-3656 cal BCE 3758-3642
ART005 Arslantepe4934 27 cal BCE 3757-3659 cal BCE 3770-3654
ART009 Arslantepe4069 20 cal BCE 2826-2505 cal BCE 2834-2497
ART010 Arslantepe4095 26 cal BCE 2835-2580 cal BCE 2857-2505
ART011 Arslantepe4103 25 cal BCE 2839-2581 cal BCE 2859-2575
ART012 Arslantepe4479 26 cal BCE 3327-3098 cal BCE 3338-3031
ART014 Arslantepe4573 27 cal BCE 3369-3140 cal BCE 3492-3119
ART015 Arslantepe4557 25 cal BCE 3363-3137 cal BCE 3369-3110
ART017 Arslantepe4516 25 cal BCE 3346-3116 cal BCE 3351-3103
ART018 Arslantepe4573 25 cal BCE 3368-3142 cal BCE 3491-3122
ART019 Arslantepe4623 24 cal BCE 3494-3363 cal BCE 3499-3355
ART020 Arslantepe4536 25 cal BCE 3356-3124 cal BCE 3362-3105
ART022 Arslantepe4681 75 cal BCE 3623-3370 cal BCE 3642-3137
ART023 Arslantepe4563 25 cal BCE 3365-3139 cal BCE 3486-3117
ART024 Arslantepe4614 24 cal BCE 3491-3361 cal BCE 3497-3352
ART026 Arslantepe4491 26 cal BCE 3331-3103 cal BCE 3340-3096
ART027 Arslantepe4546 25 cal BCE 3360-3130 cal BCE 3365-3108
ART032 Arslantepe4568 21 cal BCE 3366-3146 cal BCE 3484-3124
ART038 Arslantepe4534 27 cal BCE 3356-3121 cal BCE 3361-3105
ART039 Arslantepe4916 27 cal BCE 3702-3658 cal BCE 3762-3646
ART042 Arslantepe5014 29 cal BCE 3925-3715 cal BCE 3941-3708
CBT001 Çamlıbel Tarlası 4725 20 cal BCE 3626-3384 cal BCE 3631-3379
CBT002 Çamlıbel Tarlası 4809 30 cal BCE 3642-3536 cal BCE 3651-3525
CBT003 Çamlıbel Tarlası not dated due to sample preservation restrictions
CBT004 Çamlıbel Tarlası 4765 20 cal BCE 3632-3526 cal BCE 3635-3521
CBT005 Çamlıbel Tarlası 4713 21 cal BCE 3622-3382 cal BCE 3628-3377
CBT010 Çamlıbel Tarlası not dated due to sample preservation restrictions
CBT011 Çamlıbel Tarlası not dated due to sample preservation restrictions
CBT013 Çamlıbel Tarlası 4796 23 cal BCE 3638-3536 cal BCE 3642-3526
CBT014 Çamlıbel Tarlası 4767 28 cal BCE 3633-3525 cal BCE 3639-3385
CBT015 Çamlıbel Tarlası 4787 28 cal BCE 3637-3533 cal BCE 3642-3522
CBT016 Çamlıbel Tarlası 4828 29 cal BCE 3651-3539 cal BCE 3691-3528
CBT017 Çamlıbel Tarlası not dated due to sample preservation restrictions
CBT018 Büyükkaya663530cal BCE 5617-5546cal BCE 5626-5515
ETM001 EblaNo collagen preservation
ETM004 EblaNo collagen preservation
ETM005 EblaNo collagen preservation
ETM006 EblaNo collagen preservation
ETM010 EblaNo collagen preservation
ETM012 Ebla3997 25 cal BCE 2565-2476 cal BCE 2572-2470
ETM014 EblaNo collagen preservation
ETM016 Ebla3605 25 cal BCE 2015-1925 cal BCE 2026-1896
ETM018 Ebla3667 26 cal BCE 2129-1981 cal BCE 2135-1964
ETM023 EblaNo collagen preservation
ETM026 EblaNo collagen preservation
IKI002 İkiztepe4488 22 cal BCE 3329-3102 cal BCE 3338-3095
IKI009 İkiztepe4552 22 cal BCE 3361-3137 cal BCE 3366-3115
IKI012 İkiztepe4557 22 cal BCE 3362-3139 cal BCE 3368-3118
IKI016 İkiztepe4671 22 cal BCE 3512-3374 cal BCE 3518-3371
IKI017 İkiztepe4580 26 cal BCE 3484-3198 cal BCE 3494-3124
IKI024 İkiztepe5080 27 cal BCE 3950-3806 cal BCE3958-3799
IKI030 İkiztepe4635 26 cal BCE 3497-3365 cal BCE 3512-3357
IKI034 İkiztepe4623 26 cal BCE 3494-3362 cal BCE 3500-3352
IKI036 İkiztepe4700 26 cal BCE 3619-3378 cal BCE 3627-3374
IKI037 İkiztepe4748 29 cal BCE 3631-3520 cal BCE 3635-3382
IKI038 İkiztepe4738 26 cal BCE 3631-3386 cal BCE 3633-3381
KRD001 Tell Kurdu6783 23 cal BCE 5710-5662 cal BCE 5720-5640
KRD002 Tell Kurdu6044 22 cal BCE 4991-4911 cal BCE 5005-4849
KRD003 Tell Kurdu6739 23 cal BCE 5661-5630 cal BCE 5706-5622
KRD004 Tell Kurdu6766 25 cal BCE 5703-5639 cal BCE 5714-5632
KRD005 Tell Kurdu6838 24 cal BCE 5739-5676 cal BCE 5756-5664
KRD006 Tell KurduNo collagen preservation
TIT021 TItriş-Höyük3799 25 cal BCE 2285-2156 cal BCE 2331-2141
POT002 Polutepe6491 26 cal BCE 5486-5386 cal BCE 5508-5376
MTT001 Mentesh Tepe6802 27 cal BCE 5717-5670 cal BCE 5729-5644
ALX002 Alkhantepe4950 23 cal BCE 3765-3696 cal BCE 3776-3661

Ygorcs
29-05-20, 18:05
How do u explain with that, Afro-Asiatic language family origin?

In my view, after reading a bit of Ehret's hypothesis and taking my own conclusions from aDNA evidences, Proto-Afro-Asiatic was a Northeastern African language associated with cultures from the Early Mesolithic Egypt/Northeastern Sudan, with a population that was basically an intermediary group between the Taforalt/Iberomaurusian and the Natufians.

Natufians had ~27% Taforalt-like ancestry and a lot of E1b1b, especially E-M78, of Northeastern African origin, so I think Proto-Afro-Asiatic expanded to the Levant still during the Mesolithic. Thus Proto-Afro-Asiatic languages evolved and spread to the entire Levant and later to Mesopotamia and maybe other parts of West Asia via Neolithic Levanitnes. In Northern Mesopotamia, the language of Neolithic Levantines would've prevailed, but genetically they would have got an even higher ammount of ANF and a lot of CHG and Iran_Neolithic that they didn't have before. The rest of the Levant would've remained more Levant_Neolithic-like or acquired a more ANF-like makeup, but in the Late Chalcolithic and Early Bronze Age a large influx of CHG and Iran_Neolithic happened, but not directly - it came with Northern Mesopotamians i.e. Proto-Semitic people.

Gabriele Pashaj
29-05-20, 18:13
well, i paid the 31 usd because the video indicated that they had shulaveri-shomu... When in fact, not really.
But it wasn't all to waste. So my first comments are.
The good:
A. They do have dna from a boy in mentesh tepe from 5500bc (so, date is good), but really could only extract mtdna. So u7 is added to the mtdna of shulaveri that have h2+152, h15a1, i1 and now u7.
B. They do give an explanation why they can't get their hands on shulaveri-shomu samples... The french have them (mostly) all.

The bad:
The shulaveri boy does plot on pca as a bit of a stand out being a mix of barcin and chg . But even while they state that the shulaveri boy was from a very different culture they bundle him with the baby in polutepe, south of baku (azerbaijan) that should have much more iran_n (as opposed to other chg types).

Anyway, too many meetings today, but will try to read carefully later.
Anyone here can help with the shulaveri boy bam file when it becomes available (would be much appreciated).

wait a minute ... So in the sample from shulaveri there’s also the mtdna h15 ... In other words .. My mtdna ahha
h15 from georgia , caucasus so....

Ygorcs
29-05-20, 18:13
Arslantepe site in moden day south turkey:thinking:

Hmm that makes it even more interesting. ;-)

Btw I know the heavy proportion of CHG (~45%) in it may skew the results a bit, but even using CHG as a distinct possible source it's quite intriguing that the Anatolia_Chalcolithic DNA sample has ~6-7% Progress_Steppe-like ancestry, whatever that really means.

Angela
29-05-20, 18:23
^^Are you speaking of the R1a1b2 sample?

One sample with "maybe" 6-7% "Progress_Steppe" like ancestry imho may not mean very much at the end of the day.

At that level, it could be "shared" ancestry.

After this spate of papers I am becoming more convinced that most of the steppe ancestry in the Near East may come via Southeastern Europe, or more precisely Sardinia and/or the Aegean, and/or Southern Italy.

Look at what some are calling the "Mitanni" samples, i.e. the Central Asian admixed ones: if they were Mitanni, then the Mitanni had very little steppe by the time they arrived in the Near East.

Anfänger
29-05-20, 18:35
Hmm that makes it even more interesting. ;-)

Btw I know the heavy proportion of CHG (~45%) in it may skew the results a bit, but even using CHG as a distinct possible source it's quite intriguing that the Anatolia_Chalcolithic DNA sample has ~6-7% Progress_Steppe-like ancestry, whatever that really means.

Are you talking about Arslantepe R1b ? How did you model him ? He has exactly zero steppe-like ancestry. Btw, I am not the only one saying this. If there was steppe-related ancestry in this sample, the paper would have mentioned it.

I used everything steppe-related from Progress to Yamnaya in the source:

12118

I don´t know why all this papers only mention Caucasus/Zagros,IranN or CHG, the real proximal source is Iran Chalcolithic and/or something related from unsampled Northern Mesopotamia. In the source Tab is CHG and IranN but the model picks up IranChalcolithic(IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C).

Ygorcs
29-05-20, 19:04
Are you talking about Arslantepe R1b ? How did you model him ? He has exactly zero steppe-like ancestry. Btw, I am not the only one saying this. If there was steppe-related ancestry in this sample, the paper would have mentioned it.

I used everything steppe-related from Progress to Yamnaya in the source:

12118

I don´t know why all this papers only mention Caucasus/Zagros,IranN or CHG, the real proximal source is Iran Chalcolithic and/or something related from unsampled Northern Mesopotamia. In the source Tab is CHG and IranN but the model picks up IranChalcolithic(IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C).

No, sorry I wasn't specific, I was talking about the Barcin_Chalcolithic sample, so Northwestern Anatolia. That wasn't R1b AFAIK. This is a model I've done:




Target

Distance | ADC: 0.25x

Anatolia_Barcin_N

RUS_Khvalynsk_En

RUS_Progress_En

WHG

RUS_Karelia_HG

GEO_CHG

IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

Levant_PPNB

MNG_Hovsgol_BA

MAR_EN

KEN_Pastoral_N

TZA_Pemba_600BP

KAZ_Botai

RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov

RUS_Kolyma_Meso


Anatolia_Barcin_C:I1584


0,0331234

58,8

0

6,4

0

0

20,4

8,6

5,8

0

0

0

0

0

0

0




I just meant that it's interesting that the R1b-V1636 found in Chalcolithic Armenia and Chalcolithic Pontic-Caspian steppe just north of the North Caucasus was also found as far south as Southern Anatolia, and that even in northwestern Anatolia some ammount of steppe-related ancestry may have already been present that early (of course, as Angela says, it might have arrived there not directly, but indirectly via populations that had some of that kind of ancestry - in fact, that's exactly my present view about the arrival of Anatolian IE in Anatolia proper, just a people that descended partly, perhaps even minoritatily, from a Chalcolithic Steppe group).

By the way, where did you get the coordinates for this Arslantepe sample and others like it? I'd really like to "play" with some models on them. :-D

Ygorcs
29-05-20, 19:09
I don´t know why all this papers only mention Caucasus/Zagros,IranN or CHG, the real proximal source is Iran Chalcolithic and/or something related from unsampled Northern Mesopotamia. In the source Tab is CHG and IranN but the model picks up IranChalcolithic(IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C).

Maybe because Iran_Chalcolithic, particularly as far from the "core" of Iran as Hajji Firuz (which is really almost Transcaucasia), was already far too mixed to indicate adequately how much the local genetic makeup was changed by the influx of "INF proper" ancestry?



Target
Distance
Anatolia_Barcin_N
GEO_CHG
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
Levant_PPNB


IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I2323
0.04428460

26.0
15.2
35.8
23.0


IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4241
0.03663206

28.2
18.4
29.6
23.8


IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4349
0.03006893

23.6
24.6
32.8
19.0


IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4351
0.04362354

21.2
24.4
25.6
28.8


Average
0.03865228

24.8
20.6
30.9
23.6

Palermo Trapani
29-05-20, 19:20
Here is Figure 3A/B from the paper (PCA Plots) from Skourtanioti et al 2020.


1212112122


Regards

Anfänger
29-05-20, 19:25
No, sorry I wasn't specific, I was talking about the Barcin_Chalcolithic sample, so Northwestern Anatolia. That wasn't R1b AFAIK. This is a model I've done:




Target


Distance | ADC: 0.25x


Anatolia_Barcin_N


RUS_Khvalynsk_En


RUS_Progress_En


WHG


RUS_Karelia_HG


GEO_CHG


IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N


Levant_PPNB


MNG_Hovsgol_BA


MAR_EN


KEN_Pastoral_N


TZA_Pemba_600BP


KAZ_Botai


RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov


RUS_Kolyma_Meso



Anatolia_Barcin_C:I1584

0,0331234


58,8


0


6,4


0


0


20,4


8,6


5,8


0


0


0


0


0


0


0





I just meant that it's interesting that the R1b-V1636 found in Chalcolithic Armenia and Chalcolithic Pontic-Caspian steppe just north of the North Caucasus was also found as far south as Southern Anatolia, and that even in northwestern Anatolia some ammount of steppe-related ancestry may have already been present that early (of course, as Angela says, it might have arrived there not directly, but indirectly via populations that had some of that kind of ancestry - in fact, that's exactly my present view about the arrival of Anatolian IE in Anatolia proper, just a people that descended partly, perhaps even minoritatily, from a Chalcolithic Steppe group).

By the way, where did you get the coordinates for this Arslantepe sample and others like it? I'd really like to "play" with some models on them. :-D

Interesting, i think the eastern route hypothesis for IE Anatolian languages is dead. One R1b-V1636 sample without steppe ancestry is a very weak argument for the eastern route. I don't know about the western route but in some of my models even BMAC picks up steppe-like ancestry. I don't know what this means. Was there maybe a migration from the eneolithic steppe to BMAC ? If there was where are the relevant steppe Y-Haplogroups in BMAC ?

I got them from "G25 datasheed ancient scaled". "He" is very fast in converting the BAM files into easy accessible format.

kingjohn
29-05-20, 19:25
Hmm that makes it even more interesting. ;-)

Btw I know the heavy proportion of CHG (~45%) in it may skew the results a bit, but even using CHG as a distinct possible source it's quite intriguing that the Anatolia_Chalcolithic DNA sample has ~6-7% Progress_Steppe-like ancestry, whatever that really means.


https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arslantepe

from the paper :

We observe the
most common male lineages J1a, J2a, J2b, and G2a in all spatiotemporal
groups of the region. Alongside the less frequent lineages
H2 and T1a, these all form part of the genetic legacy that
dates to the Neolithic or was already present in the region during
the Upper Paleolithic (Wang et al., 2019; Lazaridis et al., 2016;
Jones et al., 2015; Feldman et al., 2019; Broushaki et al.,
2016). A few notable exceptions provide rather anecdotal but
nonetheless important evidence for long distance mobility and
extended Y-haplogroup diversity. For example, individual
ART038 carries Y-haplotype R1b-V1636 (R1b1a2), which is a
rare clade related to other early R1b-lineages, such as R1b-
V88 that was found in low frequency in Neolithic Europe (e.g.,
Haak et al., 2015) and R1b-Z2103—the main Y-lineage that is
associated with the spread of ‘‘steppe ancestry’’ across West
Eurasia during the early Bronze Age. However, R1b-V1636 and
R1b-Z2103 lineages split long before (17 kya) and therefore
there is no direct evidence for an early incursion from the
Pontic steppe during the main era of Arslantepe

Anfänger
29-05-20, 19:50
Maybe because Iran_Chalcolithic, particularly as far from the "core" of Iran as Hajji Firuz (which is really almost Transcaucasia), was already far too mixed to indicate adequately how much the local genetic makeup was changed by the influx of "INF proper" ancestry?



Target
Distance
Anatolia_Barcin_N
GEO_CHG
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
Levant_PPNB


IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I2323
0.04428460

26.0
15.2
35.8
23.0


IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4241
0.03663206

28.2
18.4
29.6
23.8


IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4349
0.03006893

23.6
24.6
32.8
19.0


IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4351
0.04362354

21.2
24.4
25.6
28.8


Average
0.03865228

24.8
20.6
30.9
23.6




Yes could be because it is too mixed but they could have mentioned it at least. This ancestry is key to everything related to DNA in the Middle East. I disagree that this is Transcaucasian because this northern Iran(very much like other IranChalcolithics) and/or likely unsampled northern Mesopotamian Chalcolithic ancestry penetrates as far north as Maykop(30-40%) while there is no relevant gene flow from Transcaucasia south. It is like talking about Yamnaya ancestry but only in terms of EHG and CHG. Btw, it even reaches Italy and Greece.

Ygorcs
29-05-20, 20:38
Interesting, i think the eastern route hypothesis for IE Anatolian languages is dead. One R1b-V1636 sample without steppe ancestry is a very weak argument for the eastern route. I don't know about the western route but in some of my models even BMAC picks up steppe-like ancestry. I don't know what this means. Was there maybe a migration from the eneolithic steppe to BMAC ? If there was where are the relevant steppe Y-Haplogroups in BMAC ?

Yes, I also get non-negligible Progress_Eneolithic-like admixture in models, even using some CHG and Iran_N-rich samples, for aDNA samples from Chalcolithic Armenia all the way to Chalcolithic and Bronze Age South-Central Asia, including Bronze Age Hajji Firuz and Chalcolithic Tepe Hissar (northeastern Iran). I don't know if that really means something, but it should be more investigated, because earlier samples from Iran do not have that. Considering the very archaic and divergent nature of Anatolian IE, my expectation is that we'll find its source in a very ancient migration out of the steppe to some place that was far enough for Early PIE to evolved in total independence from other PIE dialects, leading to the weird child that is Anatolian IE.


I got them from "G25 datasheed ancient scaled". "He" is very fast in converting the BAM files into easy accessible format.

Wow already? That was REALLY fast. I confess I have to thank "him" for this work, even though I often take different conclusions when I do my own models. :-D

Angela
29-05-20, 20:50
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arslantepe

from the paper :

We observe the
most common male lineages J1a, J2a, J2b, and G2a in all spatiotemporal
groups of the region. Alongside the less frequent lineages
H2 and T1a, these all form part of the genetic legacy that
dates to the Neolithic or was already present in the region during
the Upper Paleolithic (Wang et al., 2019; Lazaridis et al., 2016;
Jones et al., 2015; Feldman et al., 2019; Broushaki et al.,
2016). A few notable exceptions provide rather anecdotal but
nonetheless important evidence for long distance mobility and
extended Y-haplogroup diversity. For example, individual
ART038 carries Y-haplotype R1b-V1636 (R1b1a2), which is a
rare clade related to other early R1b-lineages, such as R1b-
V88 that was found in low frequency in Neolithic Europe (e.g.,
Haak et al., 2015) and R1b-Z2103—the main Y-lineage that is
associated with the spread of ‘‘steppe ancestry’’ across West
Eurasia during the early Bronze Age. However, R1b-V1636 and
R1b-Z2103 lineages split long before (17 kya) and therefore
there is no direct evidence for an early incursion from the
Pontic steppe during the main era of Arslantepe

As I thought; thanks, kingjohn. There's no evidence in any of these new papers for early steppe incursion into the Near East.

I was thinking of the Balkans route, but that doesn't show up either in early periods.

Angela
29-05-20, 20:54
No, sorry I wasn't specific, I was talking about the Barcin_Chalcolithic sample, so Northwestern Anatolia. That wasn't R1b AFAIK. This is a model I've done:




Target


Distance | ADC: 0.25x


Anatolia_Barcin_N


RUS_Khvalynsk_En


RUS_Progress_En


WHG


RUS_Karelia_HG


GEO_CHG


IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N


Levant_PPNB


MNG_Hovsgol_BA


MAR_EN


KEN_Pastoral_N


TZA_Pemba_600BP


KAZ_Botai


RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov


RUS_Kolyma_Meso



Anatolia_Barcin_C:I1584

0,0331234


58,8


0


6,4


0


0


20,4


8,6


5,8


0


0


0


0


0


0


0





I just meant that it's interesting that the R1b-V1636 found in Chalcolithic Armenia and Chalcolithic Pontic-Caspian steppe just north of the North Caucasus was also found as far south as Southern Anatolia, and that even in northwestern Anatolia some ammount of steppe-related ancestry may have already been present that early (of course, as Angela says, it might have arrived there not directly, but indirectly via populations that had some of that kind of ancestry - in fact, that's exactly my present view about the arrival of Anatolian IE in Anatolia proper, just a people that descended partly, perhaps even minoritatily, from a Chalcolithic Steppe group).

By the way, where did you get the coordinates for this Arslantepe sample and others like it? I'd really like to "play" with some models on them. :-D

Do you have the precise date for this sample quickly to hand?

Angela
29-05-20, 21:01
Yes, I also get non-negligible Progress_Eneolithic-like admixture in models, even using some CHG and Iran_N-rich samples, for aDNA samples from Chalcolithic Armenia all the way to Chalcolithic and Bronze Age South-Central Asia, including Bronze Age Hajji Firuz and Chalcolithic Tepe Hissar (northeastern Iran). I don't know if that really means something, but it should be more investigated, because earlier samples from Iran do not have that. Considering the very archaic and divergent nature of Anatolian IE, my expectation is that we'll find its source in a very ancient migration out of the steppe to some place that was far enough for Early PIE to evolved in total independence from other PIE dialects, leading to the weird child that is Anatolian IE.



:-D

And huge chunks of Anatolia wound up speaking Anatolian IE languages with the only genetic trace in Anatolia being this small percent of ancestry in one sample? I mean, I know there's not much "Hun" in Hungarians, but it would still be pretty extraordinary.

kingjohn
29-05-20, 21:52
As I thought; thanks, kingjohn. There's no evidence in any of these new papers for early steppe incursion into the Near East.

I was thinking of the Balkans route, but that doesn't show up either in early periods.

indeed :good_job:
the obsession with the steppe is amazing
like there can't be civilized culture without steppe admixture .....:thinking:

Angela
29-05-20, 23:27
indeed :good_job:
the obsession with the steppe is amazing
like there can't be civilized culture without steppe admixture .....:thinking:

Civilized and steppe is a bit of an oxymoron, isn't it?

"Civilization" means a very specific thing in the history of the world, which many of the people in this "hobby" seem not to have read about.

The first agriculture, the first irrigation systems, the first domesticated animals (other than the horse), the first metallurgy, especially bronze metallurgy, the first actual cities, the first writing, the first empires, all are from the Near East, with some perhaps from the Neolithic societies of southeastern Europe.

The "civilized" aspects of Indo-European culture were learned from others. I'll give them the domestication of the horse, but I think even the cart came from Europe.

I say this as the daughter of a U-152 man and a U2e2 mother, and as someone with a respectable amount of "steppe" autosomal ancestry myself. Facts are facts, however.

Ygorcs
30-05-20, 02:07
indeed :good_job:
the obsession with the steppe is amazing
like there can't be civilized culture without steppe admixture .....:thinking:

Nonsense. That sounds a bit paranoid to be honest. The thing is that Anatolia SPOKE Indo-European languages as early as the Middle Bronze Age, and the IE languages spoken there happen to have been the most divergent and arguably archaic of all IE language groups, which suggests a migration that took place before that of the ancestors of other, less deeply diverged IE groups. So, there is obviously a search for some kind of connection to the steppe because all the other IE branches can be linked to the arrival of steppe admixture in the regions where they are spoken.

This matter has nothing to do with civilization, it's all about linguistics. You don't see people looking for evidences of steppe admixture in the Levant, Egypt or the China, because there is simply no evidence those areas spoke mainly IE languages at some time in the Bronze Age.

Ygorcs
30-05-20, 02:08
Do you have the precise date for this sample quickly to hand?

Unfortunately I don't. I also wish someone knew it.

Ygorcs
30-05-20, 02:17
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arslantepe

from the paper :

We observe the
most common male lineages J1a, J2a, J2b, and G2a in all spatiotemporal
groups of the region. Alongside the less frequent lineages
H2 and T1a, these all form part of the genetic legacy that
dates to the Neolithic or was already present in the region during
the Upper Paleolithic (Wang et al., 2019; Lazaridis et al., 2016;
Jones et al., 2015; Feldman et al., 2019; Broushaki et al.,
2016). A few notable exceptions provide rather anecdotal but
nonetheless important evidence for long distance mobility and
extended Y-haplogroup diversity. For example, individual
ART038 carries Y-haplotype R1b-V1636 (R1b1a2), which is a
rare clade related to other early R1b-lineages, such as R1b-
V88 that was found in low frequency in Neolithic Europe (e.g.,
Haak et al., 2015) and R1b-Z2103—the main Y-lineage that is
associated with the spread of ‘‘steppe ancestry’’ across West
Eurasia during the early Bronze Age. However, R1b-V1636 and
R1b-Z2103 lineages split long before (17 kya) and therefore
there is no direct evidence for an early incursion from the
Pontic steppe during the main era of Arslantepe

Well, I think they got it a bit wrong that R1b-Z2103 is "the main Y-lineage that is associated with the spread of 'steppe ancestry' across West Eurasia during the early Bronze Age". Much of that expansion accompanied the spread of R1a-M417 and R1b-L51, not Z2103, though that was indeed the main lineage found in the mature phase of Yamnaya.

Strange that they would miss that...

I'm not sure if these data have been confirmed or corrected later, but according to this haplogroup assignment of aDNA samples from that Greater Caucasus paper (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wkLjTA856nW6On8Q10U-WrhyTBWlwCVdK6AMQFCfIaw/edit#gid=202340943), R1b-V1636 was the Y-lineage of the two individuals from the Progress archaeological site in the Eneolithic Pontic-Caspian steppe as well as the Y-lineage of an individual from the Yamnaya culture in the piedmont of the Caucasus, i.e. broadly the same region of the earlier Eneolithic Steppe people.

The spread of a population with a higher CHG:EHG ratio in comparison with the Khvalynsk and Sredny Stog further north is almost certain to have occurred between the Eneolithic and the EBA of the Yamnaya culture, and it fits really well the spread of a population pretty similar (autosomally) to the Progress Eneolithic Steppe people. And, apparently, R1b-V1636 was present in people who were genetically similar to them.

Finally it is true the divergence between Z2103 and V1636 is really old, but the LMRCA of V1636 actually dates to the Late Neolithic/Early Chalcolithic, i.e. 6600 YBP, only a few centuries before V1636 was in Progress in the southernmost part of the Pontic-Caspian steppe.

Olympus Mons
30-05-20, 02:19
I told you Shulaveri Shomu will be too late to be the source of the southern component in the Steppe. They have plenty of Iran Hajji-Firuz Chalcolithic. This ancestry spreads all over the Middle East.

Hi. You mean that, like I fought for months and got mocked for, hajji firuz chalc, ie the "steppe" R1b Z2103 from 5300 bc, ie the other guy apart from shulaveri making wine... Was a Shulaveri (or Shares Lots of ancestry) teaching winemaking in iran?

Does anyone have access to BAM for this sample?

Olympus Mons
30-05-20, 02:21
wait a minute ... So in the sample from shulaveri there’s also the mtdna h15 ... In other words .. My mtdna ahha
h15 from georgia , caucasus so....
Ahhh, yes indeed.

Angela
30-05-20, 03:39
Nonsense. That sounds a bit paranoid to be honest. The thing is that Anatolia SPOKE Indo-European languages as early as the Middle Bronze Age, and the IE languages spoken there happen to have been the most divergent and arguably archaic of all IE language groups, which suggests a migration that took place before that of the ancestors of other, less deeply diverged IE groups. So, there is obviously a search for some kind of connection to the steppe because all the other IE branches can be linked to the arrival of steppe admixture in the regions where they are spoken.

This matter has nothing to do with civilization, it's all about linguistics. You don't see people looking for evidences of steppe admixture in the Levant, Egypt or the China, because there is simply no evidence those areas spoke mainly IE languages at some time in the Bronze Age.

Sorry, I'm with kingjohn on this one.

Obsession is the right word. I'm interested in the Indo-Europeans too but, I'm equally interested in the population genetics of other peoples and periods of history, and more interested in history itself. I'm also passionately interested in, and post about, music and art and theater and language etc. I'm not obsessed with the population genetics of any group, not even Italians, and I only get emotional when someone is t-rolling my people, and that includes both Italians and Americans.

What else to call it but obsession when grown men spend what sometimes seems like every waking moment trying to get every nuance of the origin, spread, genetics, yDna etc. etc. right? Why does it matter so much? Why is it such an emotional issue for some people whether they went to the Near East or not?

I beg to differ too that they're only interested in steppe in Anatolia because they're just interested in linguistics. You can't be that naive, Ygorcs. They want the Mitanni to have brought steppe to other areas of the Near East too, and they used to make it much more clear that the reason was to claim the accomplishments of all those people for their own ancestors. Some idiot once told me the Sumerians were probably Indo-Europeans, a well-respected idiot by others, btw. Why do you think tens of thousands of posts were written trying to prove that the ancient Greeks and Romans were Nordics? Maybe you weren't around then?

Scratch the surface of obsessions and you usually find something emotional or some agenda or something really sinister. I spent a chunk of my professional life looking at the dark underbelly in human beings and I'm telling you it's true. In the case of this issue, it's usually something racist imo, no matter whether it's a Pole or an Italian. They hide it on some sites, but on others, with others of their kind, they let it rip. What they write on the dark net must be completely and utterly insane. I'm glad I don't go there. It might disturb my sleep more than Covid.

I remember R1a/R1b wars over who was "more" or "less" Indo-European. I remember, before it became politically incorrect, the boasting about the "superior" Indo-Europeans, the Conan the Barbarians of pre-history who killed all the men in their path and stole all the women, the celebration of the "blonde-blue-eyed cowboys" of the steppes conquering dark peoples and on and on. As I said, maybe you weren't around, but I was. If it weren't so pathetic it would be laughable. Adolescent fantasies of weak men with a less than adequate manhood usually, like those of Hitler and the maimed and diminutive Goebels, fantasies designed to redress the feelings of ostracism, perhaps, of personal or ethnic humiliation? Who knows.

I've been reading the writings of people like this for ten years, and that's my conclusion. You're welcome to your own opinion.

As to the specifics of these papers, if I'm getting the facts straight, we have an R1b1a2 in southern Anatolia with no steppe, a Barcin Chalcolithic sample in whom your model shows 6% of something found on the steppe, and some Central Asian admixed person or people, who may or may not have been Mitanni, with barely any steppe. As to the latter, given they may have come from BMAC and the Reich Lab paper on India said there was no admixture there, why would they have it?

If that's it, I don't think it's enough to prove an incursion down through the Caucasus from the steppe. It may have happened, or it may not; I don't really care. If it did happen it left nothing behind, not even the language eventually. The "Huns" at least left that, although their other impact was as negligible as that of the steppe in the Near East. All the cultural accomplishments, the "civilization", which is the only important thing, went in the other direction. That's what it has to do with "civilization", that and the fact that for the worst of these kinds of people it's always been about cultural appropriation of the worst kind. Anyway, since you posted your opinion, I thought I'd post mine.

Live and let live, and we'll see what future ancient dna tells us.

Ygorcs
30-05-20, 05:03
Sorry, I'm with kingjohn on this one.

Obsession is the right word. I'm interested in the Indo-Europeans too but, I'm equally interested in the population genetics of other peoples and periods of history, and more interested in history itself. I'm also passionately interested in, and post about, music and art and theater and language etc. I'm not obsessed with the population genetics of any group, not even Italians, and I only get emotional when someone is t-rolling my people, and that includes both Italians and Americans.

What else to call it but obsession when grown men spend what sometimes seems like every waking moment trying to get every nuance of the origin, spread, genetics, yDna etc. etc. right? Why does it matter so much? Why is it such an emotional issue for some people whether they went to the Near East or not?

Well, I was replying to kingjohn about me, since he was clearly commenting about my post. I honestly don't even want to be a spokesperson for anyone else, let alone those who are truly obsessed not about population genetics and genetic history as whole, but specifically and almost exclusively about the Indo-European question. I do know the underlying and sometimes inconfessable motives behind that utter fascination with the history of the steppe migrations and of the spread of the IE language family... but I also think it's really unfair to assume a priori that everyone who proposes some genetic or archaeological link between the PC steppe and/or the Indo-Europeans and some ancient population or region is some kind of "supremacist", particularly when it is a region that is known for a fact to have had indeed some kind of link to Indo-European (after all, Anatolian IE didn't arrive there with online language courses).


Adolescent fantasies of weak men with a less than adequate manhood usually, like those of Hitler and the maimed and diminutive Goebels, fantasies designed to redress the feelings of ostracism, perhaps, of personal or ethnic humiliation? Who knows.

I've usually found that that is almost always the reason when you finally get to see a supremacist or a something-centrist of some kind, or even more broadly anyone who gets too radical about an idea. They have deeply personal psychological and social issues that are still ill solved for them, and they pretend they have overcome it all by creating a strong sense of belonging and of purpose to some group (even if it's a group that's long dead). But in my experience Nordicists weren't the only guilty of that (though probably the most vicious), Afrocentrists are now even more loud (perhaps because it's not seen as a politically incorrect tance yet), and there are even a few people I've met online who are perhaps way too proud of their Mediterranean and Near Eastern ancestors' civilizational achievements.

Anfänger
30-05-20, 09:50
Hi. You mean that, like I fought for months and got mocked for, hajji firuz chalc, ie the "steppe" R1b Z2103 from 5300 bc, ie the other guy apart from shulaveri making wine... Was a Shulaveri (or Shares Lots of ancestry) teaching winemaking in iran?
Does anyone have access to BAM for this sample?

Hey, welcome back. You mean the former Chalcolithic R1b-Z2103? He is dated to the Iron Age now. Probably an IE Iranian. He is very close to modern Iranians.

There are 3 new huge papers about the Near East, with dozen of new samples and so much information but people talk about a sample with barely any steppe being a "Mitanni" woman thrown into a well.
Yep, pop gen community has an obsession with IE people.

Olympus Mons
30-05-20, 11:16
Hey, welcome back. You mean the former Chalcolithic R1b-Z2103? He is dated to the Iron Age now. Probably an IE Iranian. He is very close to modern Iranians.
.
Hi. I thought they couldn't get enough collagen for proper dating. When and where is his new dating?
PS: that sample was perfectly stratified and his strada well dated. So, what changed?

EDIT: Yes, I do remember it was then published as IA.

Olympus Mons
30-05-20, 12:29
One of the things this paper did is destroy (partly)my conspiracy theory against Reich and Krauser. Now I know why they had published everyone around them, everyone before and after them (sort of) ---- because the french have them!!! And sure enough, nobody expects a french to share those, does it? ;) well poor Shulaveri, got short hand stick.

In the paper they explain:

"Extensive genetic characterization of the Late Neolithic population of Mentesh Tepe is being conducted by CNRS UMR 7206/MNHN USM 104. Here, we analyzed one individual from the Late Neolithic collective burial of Mentesh Tepe which producedgenome-wide data and was included in the genetic analyses." - So, one day... maybe, peut-être un jour, we will get a paper regarding Shulaveri.

CNRS in Paris already had, in 2014, the two samples of the shulaveri couple buried, I think in Aruklho, handed by berteille Lyonnet to them for DNA extraction. For a while I was expectant.... Now we know they have the rest, which are the 30 inhumation of Mentesh tepe. I don't think there are many more, apart from the 3 samples from the Aratashen group that Ashot Margaryan used for is paper. well, at least he told me that those 3 samples are being used for a paper that is trying to extract nuclear DNA. I Just prey it wasn't this one (Skourtanioti) and they could't get any nuclear data...

Anyways, just for reference, Mentesh tepe is the most eastern bounders of Shulaveri-Shomu, so the ones connecting to the azerbaijan steppe, where exchanges with Iran neolithic were seem very early. and the youngster Krause and Skourtanioti used here was the last one to be buried of the 30 in the big pit burial. So the population had been in there for 500 years in the exchange route prior to his death. Maybe the other (if the french ever publish) will be just like him or a bit different set up. Anyways it will be interesting.

Angela
30-05-20, 13:37
Well, I was replying to kingjohn about me, since he was clearly commenting about my post. I honestly don't even want to be a spokesperson for anyone else, let alone those who are truly obsessed not about population genetics and genetic history as whole, but specifically and almost exclusively about the Indo-European question. I do know the underlying and sometimes inconfessable motives behind that utter fascination with the history of the steppe migrations and of the spread of the IE language family... but I also think it's really unfair to assume a priori that everyone who proposes some genetic or archaeological link between the PC steppe and/or the Indo-Europeans and some ancient population or region is some kind of "supremacist", particularly when it is a region that is known for a fact to have had indeed some kind of link to Indo-European (after all, Anatolian IE didn't arrive there with online language courses).



I've usually found that that is almost always the reason when you finally get to see a supremacist or a something-centrist of some kind, or even more broadly anyone who gets too radical about an idea. They have deeply personal psychological and social issues that are still ill solved for them, and they pretend they have overcome it all by creating a strong sense of belonging and of purpose to some group (even if it's a group that's long dead). But in my experience Nordicists weren't the only guilty of that (though probably the most vicious), Afrocentrists are now even more loud (perhaps because it's not seen as a politically incorrect tance yet), and there are even a few people I've met online who are perhaps way too proud of their Mediterranean and Near Eastern ancestors' civilizational achievements. [/FONT][/COLOR]

I certainly don't think and didn't mean to imply that everyone who discusses the issue is a closet supremacist and racist. I will say that it's sometimes difficult to tell given all this cloaking of identity from one site to the next. Certain players are a bit more honest. At least they haven't changed their names.

I'd also say that pride in the accomplishments of one's people doesn't necessarily have anything to do with believing they're genetically superior to all others, perfect in every way, entitled to different treatment etc.

In the people we're discussing, part of the absurdity is that this sense of superiority applies not to their actual people, but to the proportion of ancestry they inherit from tribal people who lived 5,000 and more years ago. In a European context, that means the more than absurdity, the insanity, of thinking one is superior because one has 50 or 60% of steppe rather than 25 or 30%, or 15% of "Iran Neo" or 25%, or "GOD FORBID", anything that could be called "LEVANTINE".

There's a dark underbelly to the "hobby" of population genetics, including a good deal of anti-semitism, and it does no good to deny it, imo. Fresh air and the light of day kills more than just viruses.

Now, back to the papers.

In that regard, if I were a betting woman, given that the "Anatolian" IE languages are in western Anatolia, I would look for any traces of steppe there, perhaps in the far northwestern corner, despite the fact that I've never seen convincing evidence in the archaeology of any mass take over.

Who knows, maybe it was the relatively rare Hungarian model after all: very few people, perhaps only men, maybe mercenaries of some kind, who introduced a new language, but who had no lasting effect on the genetics or culture, partly because they were not entering a de-populated environment, but a thriving and more civilized one.

Olympus Mons
30-05-20, 13:38
Part II.
Adding to my previous post regarding the Shulaveri Sample ,MTT001, its revealing that:
a. the Youngster had Mtdna U7, which is a very Iranian one, when compared to the Other shulaveri samples from Aratashen that have H2+152, H15a and I1. Ie he/she had an iranian mother that is not seen later in steppe, but the others Shulaveri mtdna (H15, H2 and I1) are also seen later in steppe (as well as H13 which is the other South caucasus LN sample from Polutepe).

b. so, if anything the Shulaveri "triangle" is sort of isolated in the PCA pulling to Iran_C but also to Armenia samples, EBA and Chal that in the past our good guru tried to convince us were proof or indicative of Steppe migration into south caucasus.

Armenia_ChL
Armenia_EBA_I1658 0.862±0.050
Sredny_Stog_I6561 0.138±0.050
chisq 17.038
tail prob 0.148174


Armenia_ChL_I1634
Armenia_EBA_I1658 0.836±0.065
Sredny_Stog_I6561 0.164±0.065
chisq 13.813
tail prob 0.312808


It just tell us that with one sample its always dangerous to draw conclusions...

bicicleur
31-05-20, 12:00
fwiw

https://indo-european.eu/2020/05/demographically-complex-near-east-hints-at-anatolian-and-indo-aryan-arrival/?fbclid=IwAR3SocZZSSnvSnpWGmXHJQgw-lBBY2MiJg22HcuUW1ftaB1_9x8XTe6rk3E

kingjohn
31-05-20, 14:30
fwiw
https://indo-european.eu/2020/05/demographically-complex-near-east-hints-at-anatolian-and-indo-aryan-arrival/?fbclid=IwAR3SocZZSSnvSnpWGmXHJQgw-lBBY2MiJg22HcuUW1ftaB1_9x8XTe6rk3E

nice work of carlos
:good_job:
the ART015 the e1b-L795 sample is at the same date of this r1b ( that everyone talk about )
ART015.A 4557 25 cal BCE 3363-3137 cal BCE 3369-3110 Arslantepethat is-late chl :cool-v:


p.s
i didn't like the fact that the researchers from germany
ignore the e1b1b1 in this pdf
yes 2 ( same number as the T by the way ) is not high but is worth mention
especially since e-L795 was found in armenia middle late bronze age remains
to me it look like expansion from levant to the north anatolia /armenia

Angela
31-05-20, 14:36
nice work of carlos
:good_job:
the ART015 the e1b-L795 sample is at the same date of this r1b ( that everyone talk about )
ART015.A 4557 25 cal BCE 3363-3137 cal BCE 3369-3110 Arslantepethat is-late chl :cool-v:


p.s
i didn't like the fact that the researchers from germany
ignore the e1b1b1 in this pdf
yes 2 ( same number as the T by the way ) is not high but is worth mention
especially since e-L795 was found in armenia middle late bronze age remains
to me it look like expansion from levant to the north anatolia /armenia

I agree, and it's not my only issue with the paper.

Olympus Mons
31-05-20, 17:34
fwiw
https://indo-european.eu/2020/05/demographically-complex-near-east-hints-at-anatolian-and-indo-aryan-arrival/?fbclid=IwAR3SocZZSSnvSnpWGmXHJQgw-lBBY2MiJg22HcuUW1ftaB1_9x8XTe6rk3E

Bicicleur ... its a good example why so many people get at times exasperated with Carlos Quiles, even consider him lacking intelligence. He correctly notices that the paper forgets that R1b V1636 is:


“R1b-V1636 was found before in Khvalynsk and in Khvalynsk-related Progress 2, and later in Yamnaya from the Caucasus.”


But instead of thinking , well if V1636, 4000 BC – 3000BC are found at steppe and we have an Anatolian at 3200BC without any steppe, than we need to at least say that is not at all likely that V1636 came from the steppe to Eastern Anatolia but most likely the other way around… Well, carlos states:


“2. The fact that it has no Steppe ancestry shows how gene flows were easily diluted among a demographically dense Near Eastern population within a few generations.”


Dear lord!. - If this can be used as an argument... then all Dna data is irrelevant, because leaps of 800 years is all around the papers published.

Really, Some of us can state stuff like that here, but someone who does this thinking process on his blog that is supposed to be an analytical stance on published papers.... makes little sense, indeed.

halfalp
31-05-20, 18:48
Bicicleur ... its a good example why so many people get at times exasperated with Carlos Quiles, even consider him lacking intelligence. He correctly notices that the paper forgets that R1b V1636 is:



But instead of thinking , well if V1636, 4000 BC – 3000BC are found at steppe and we have an Anatolian at 3200BC without any steppe, than we need to at least say that is not at all likely that V1636 came from the steppe to Eastern Anatolia but most likely the other way around… Well, carlos states:




Dear lord!. - If this can be used as an argument... then all Dna data is irrelevant, because leaps of 800 years is all around the papers published.

Really, Some of us can state stuff like that here, but someone who does this thinking process on his blog that is supposed to be an analytical stance on published papers.... makes little sense, indeed.


You argument dont match because the Progress individuals have nothing of ancestry from this younger Anatolian individual neither. What we could argue with is that wherever it is found, V1636 shows CHG ancestry, wich do not give you it's origin, because of how old this ancestry is. It's not a coincidence if V1636 are both found in North Caucasus and South of it, it means there was a path, but it's more likely that V1636 for most of it's story was more shifted towards CHG, than EHG population while living in North Caucasus prior to the expansion of the Repin culture. It's not a coincidence neither that before the Bronze Age R1b wasn't found anywhere in the Middle-East, not even V88, because what we thought before for years, base on modern distribution was biased.

It's the exact same story with J1 in eastern europe being 100% EHG, but we constantly need to say it again.

Olympus Mons
31-05-20, 19:27
I agree with the paper conclusions.
Because basically it says…. “we still don’t know”. It was obvious they were trying to figure the archaeological relevant Levant and eastern Anatolia bronze age (because those were the samples they had) and are honest enough to say “still couldn’t” instead of, like what we have seen in the past, making a fitting narrative.


Because overall they conclude:



They do mention that they see two genetics events. The Neolithic one of which to be fair they do have very little samples, but archaeology makes it obvious, hence the arrival of Shulaveri , etc, - they do not have much to say about it, and south Caucasus is still, a part from Mesopotamia, the most obscure parcel in the region.





The second genetic event and the one they do have many samples from (4000BC-3000BC), is the Early bronze age. Again, fully in alignment with archaeology as well. It is nice they confess they couldn’t really figure it out, as also archaeology can’t. The existence and exchanges say between Kura Araxes and Uruk is difficult to figure out. The passage between UBAID and Uruk, still not at all diagnosed. But both (KA and URUK) expanded well and beyond. And there was a people/genetic force (broadly Mesopotamia area) that it remains still unexampled. And nobody cant say they didn’t play a role.




Largely the paper seems to follow archaeological questions and not just flow with whatever samples pop up. Its like archaeogenetic (or MPI SHH) figure out that they first need to answer questions in the realm of past archaeological questions and not act as if those question never existed or had a reason to exist in the first place.

Anfänger
31-05-20, 20:24
R1b-V1636 in Yamnaya and Khvalynsk ? Are there new samples ? The only R1b-V1636 I know of is from Eneolithic Piedmont and the new Arlanstepe R1b-V1636.

halfalp
31-05-20, 20:49
R1b-V1636 in Yamnaya and Khvalynsk ? Are there new samples ? The only R1b-V1636 I know of is from Eneolithic Piedmont and the new Arlanstepe R1b-V1636.

I think a few unpublished samples of Khvalynsk were labeled P297 but V1636 instead, not sure. I think it's linked with David Anthony works.

Olympus Mons
31-05-20, 20:52
R1b-V1636 in Yamnaya and Khvalynsk ? Are there new samples ? The only R1b-V1636 I know of is from Eneolithic Piedmont and the new Arlanstepe R1b-V1636.

Hi, Carlos Quiles says so ... and I remember reading that refined and updated analysis in one Khav and one Yam turn out to be V1636.

Its his argument that bothers me - We do have Archaeology and now aDna with large movements from South to North Caucasus... So, lots of Iran and CHG into north Caucasus. Its just that his argument makes everything valid and invalid. Which in the end might be possible... but then all our, and his!, discussion and arguments are irrelevant. Everything is possible.

I sure need to stress everytime: We have south Caucasus Mtdna (H2, H15, I1 and now a U7 and even H13). Just go to Mathieson, or Wang et al supplements and look for those Haplos. apart from U7 (seen in Maykop and Iran) you find the others in khav, progress, Yamnaya, , Alexandria...

Angela
31-05-20, 20:52
R1b-V1636 in Yamnaya and Khvalynsk ? Are there new samples ? The only R1b-V1636 I know of is from Eneolithic Piedmont and the new Arlanstepe R1b-V1636.

If you get to the bottom of it let me know.

I can't remember having seen this much over-interpretation and clutching at straws in years.

Also, why don't people look at the graphics in the Haber paper?

There was certainly no steppe intrusion around the area of modern Beirut at the period of interest.

It looks highly unlikely to me given the present state of the evidence that the Anatolian languages came to Anatolia from the steppe by going south through the Caucasus.

Maybe they'll find evidence of a route through the Balkans. If they do, great. It won't change the fact that the genomic influence from the steppe was miniscule, and the same is probably true of any steppe which arrived with the Mitanni.

Olympus Mons
31-05-20, 21:48
I sure need to stress everytime: We have south Caucasus Mtdna (H2, H15, I1 and now a U7 and even H13). Just go to Mathieson, or Wang et al supplements and look for those Haplos. apart from U7 (seen in Maykop and Iran) you find the others in khav, progress, Yamnaya, , Alexandria...


If one bothers to follow this summary of what we have for Mtdna from Mathieson, Wang, Lazaridis, etc... Just check the countries and dating.



I5407
9800
8300-7400 BCE
Lepenski Vir
Serbia
..
H13


I4081
9335
7580-7190 calBCE
Ostrovul Corbului
Romania
R1b1a
H13,H13


I0698_published
7900
6000-5900 BCE
Yabalkovo
Bulgaria
G2a2a1a2a
H,H,H,H,H,H2a,H


XXXX
7700
5700BC
Aratashen
Armenia
..
H15a


XXXX
7700
5700BC
Aratashen
Armenia
..
H2 + 152


XXXX
7700
5700BC
Aratashen
Armenia
..
I1


XXXX
7600
5600BC
Mentesh Tepe
Azerbaijan

U7


XXXX
7300
5300BC
Polutepe
Azerbaijan

H13


I1634
6145
4330-4060 calBCE
Areni 1
Armenia
L1a1
H2a1



6100
4233-4047
Eneolithic steppe
Russia
R1b1
H2


I6561
5960
4045-3974 calBCE
Alexandria
Ukraine
R1a1a1
H2a1a


I1674
5836
3972-3800 calBCE
Seh Gabi
Iran
G1a
I1c


I1665
5826
3956-3796 calBCE
Iran_Seh_Gabi_Chalcolithic
Iran
..
U7a




3972-3800
Iran_Chalcolithic
Seh Gabi
Iran
I1c




3634-3377
Steppe Maykop
Russia

H2a1




3619-3369
Steppe Maykop
Russia

U7b


I0370
4950
3300-2700 BCE
Ishkinovka I, Eastern Orenburg, Pre-Ural steppe, Samara
Russia
R1b1a1a2a2
H13a1a1


I3141
4950
3300-2700 BCE
Shevchenko, OAE-2003
Ukraine
..
H15b1




3336-3105
Steppe Maykop
Russia
Q1a2
U7b


I0441
4766
3010-2622 calBCE
Kurmanaevka III, Buzuluk, Samara
Russia
..
H2b


I0374
4350
2800-2000 BCE
Nikolaevka III, Samara River, Samara
Russia
R1b1a1a2a2
H13a1a,H13a1a,H13a1a




2863-2581
North Caucasus
Russia
R1b1a2
H13a1a2


I0839_published
4282
2457-2206 calBCE
Galeria da Cisterna, Almonda
Portugal
..
H3,H2a,H2a2a1


I5020
4282
2458-2206 calBCE
Landau an der Isar
Germany
..
H2a1e


I7203
4250
2800-1800 BCE
Prague 5, Jinonice, Butovick?Street
Czech Republic
R1
H2a2a


I6537
4117
2291-2042 calBCE
Racibórz-Stara Wieś
Poland
R1b1a1a2a1a
I1a1


I2604
4070
2210-2030 calBCE
Barton Stacey, Hampshire
Great Britain
..
H2a3


I0070
4000
2400-1700 BCE
Lassithi, Crete
Greece
J2a1d
H13a1a


I0234
3675
1850-1600 BCE
Rozhdestveno I, Samara Steppes, Samara
Russia
..
I1a1


I0431_published
3675
1850-1600 BCE
Spiridonovka II, Samara River, Samara
Russia
..
H2b


I4331
3526
1631-1521 calBCE
Veliki Vanik
Croatia
J2b2a
I1a1


I5470
3485
1620-1450 calBCE
Leith, Merrilees Close, City of Edinburgh
Great Britain
R1
H15a1


I2656_d
3080
1279-980 calBCE
Scotland, Longniddry, Grainfoot
Great Britain
R
H2a2a2


I0576
2650
700 BCE
Arzan
Russia
..
H15b1




1850-1600 BCE
Srubnaya
Rozhdestveno I, Samara Steppes, Samara
Russia
I1a1

Olympus Mons
31-05-20, 22:10
My previous post, is because sometimes people forget the samples that are used in some sounding names are very few. Iran Chal… is usually the five from Seth gabi.
Even the PCA from Skourtanioti from MPI-SHH, makes its easy to forget that the Mentesh tepe is much more contemporaneous with Iran_Neolithic more than Iran_Chalcolithic whose samples used in this studies are Seth Gabi from 700 years to 1200 years after the disappearing of the People of Mentesh. So,

a.Mtdna from Samples from South_caucasus_LN are next seem 1500 years later, the Armenia (Aratashen) ones in the eneolithic steppe and the Yamnaya (H2,H15, I1 and H13), and the Azerbaijan ones in Maykop and Iran Chalc ( mostly the U7). But they are much older.

b. shouldn’t pass unnoticed that both H2 and H13 in the samples show up earlier and firstly in Balkans (weird)

c. Later show up in bell beakers…

Regio X
01-06-20, 01:01
I wonder if one of those G's is the Ashkenazi G clade, or Sephardi for that matter.

Context is going to be important here. Were they all found in definitely "local", Canaanite graves?

I apologize but there are actually 11 G Y-DNA Haplogroups. My eyes are not what they use to be. I don't know if this will help but

G=1
G1=1
G2a2b1a=3
G2a2b1=3
G2a=1
G2a2=1
G2ab1=1

Got a zoom meeting with a colleague to go to but if there is anything else that you need that I can add clarification, please let me know

Buona Serrata, PT

Thanks.

Do you know how much G2a2 is in the area today? I know that in the Levant as a whole it's not very frequent, is it?

Do you think they support the contention of the authors of a change in the Iron Age?The Ashkenazi G clade is the G2b1-M377 (~7% among them), and it was not listed by Palermo. I guess the oldest ancient G2b thus far, from 9500-9000 ybp, was found in Western Iran. G2b would be present even among Pashtuns at a rate of ~6%. The frequency among Jews from Israel would be ~10%.

As for G2a frequencies, you can find some in this page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G_(Y-DNA)_by_country), including Levantines'. Perhaps it's not updated, anyway, it's a reference. The highest frequencies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G_(Y-DNA)_by_country#Caucasus_Mountains_Region) are found in Caucasus, as you know, and in two groups from Kazakhstan.
I thought curious that the frequency provided for NE Italy in that page, 11.3%, roughly corresponds to the one informed by 23andMe for the same region, 12%, possibly based on their own database. Also more or less in line with Ethnopedia, which presents especially Verona province as a G hotspot.

The G-M201 SNP diversity would peak in Armenia according to Rootsi et al. 2012 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3499744), but G1 diversity (https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Maxat_Zhabagin2/publication/274693345/figure/fig2/AS:[email protected]/Map-of-haplotype-diversity-of-haplogroup-G1-The-black-points-represent-the-populations.png) apparently peaks in Iran. Hovhannisyan et al. 2014 (https://investigativegenetics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13323-014-0015-6) also suggested an important spot of STR diversity (https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-PT_7tVw-vFA/VIXwnXn0QNI/AAAAAAAAD3c/UoZn6tQ1zCQ/s1600/Armenia.JPG) in the Levant (Wow! I wouldn't guess such R1b1a2 diversity in Middle East, btw), but the paper seems to support Rootsi's conclusions.

Rootsi:
"We attempted to localize the potential geographic origin of haplogroup G-M201 by considering those locations containing both G1-M285- and G2-P287-related lineages as well as the co-occurrence of high sub-haplogroup diversity."
(...)
"In the ten remaining populations, haplogroup diversity spanned from a low of 0.21 in Adyghes, to highs of 0.88 in Azeris (Iran) and 0.89 in eastern Anatolia and 0.90 in Armenia. We estimate that the geographic origin of hg G plausibly locates somewhere nearby eastern Anatolia, Armenia or western Iran."

Hovhannisyan:
"At the same time, the Armenian sample from the central region of the Armenian Highland has a comparable value of haplotype diversity (74.5%) with that of the Near Eastern populations of Syria (88.6%) and Palestine (79.3%) (see Additional file 5). Thus, our results support the recently published data on the origin of this haplogroup in the neighboring areas of eastern Anatolia, Armenia, and Western Iran [51]."
(...)
"The constructed median-joining network within the haplogroup G (Figure 7) reveals the highest level of scattering of central Armenian haplotypes as compared to various neighboring populations (Palestinians, Cherkessians, Iranians), which is expected under the assumption of the local origin of this lineage."

Ancient DNA seems to support a G arrival to South Levant in Iron Age. At least so far.

Angela
01-06-20, 04:27
The Ashkenazi G clade is the G2b1-M377 (~7% among them), and it was not listed by Palermo. I guess the oldest ancient G2b thus far, from 9500-9000 ybp, was found in Western Iran. G2b would be present even among Pashtuns at a rate of ~6%. The frequency among Jews from Israel would be ~10%.

As for G2a frequencies, you can find some in this page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G_(Y-DNA)_by_country), including Levantines'. Perhaps it's not updated, anyway, it's a reference. The highest frequencies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G_(Y-DNA)_by_country#Caucasus_Mountains_Region) are found in Caucasus, as you know, and in two groups from Kazakhstan.
I thought curious that the frequency provided for NE Italy in that page, 11.3%, roughly corresponds to the one informed by 23andMe for the same region, 12%, possibly based on their own database. Also more or less in line with Ethnopedia, which presents especially Verona province as a G hotspot.

The G-M201 SNP diversity would peak in Armenia according to Rootsi et al. 2012 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3499744), but G1 diversity (https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Maxat_Zhabagin2/publication/274693345/figure/fig2/AS:[email protected]/Map-of-haplotype-diversity-of-haplogroup-G1-The-black-points-represent-the-populations.png) apparently peaks in Iran. Hovhannisyan et al. 2014 (https://investigativegenetics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13323-014-0015-6) also suggested an important spot of STR diversity (https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-PT_7tVw-vFA/VIXwnXn0QNI/AAAAAAAAD3c/UoZn6tQ1zCQ/s1600/Armenia.JPG) in the Levant (Wow! I wouldn't guess such R1b1a2 diversity in Middle East, btw), but the paper seems to support Rootsi's conclusions.

Rootsi:
"We attempted to localize the potential geographic origin of haplogroup G-M201 by considering those locations containing both G1-M285- and G2-P287-related lineages as well as the co-occurrence of high sub-haplogroup diversity."
(...)
"In the ten remaining populations, haplogroup diversity spanned from a low of 0.21 in Adyghes, to highs of 0.88 in Azeris (Iran) and 0.89 in eastern Anatolia and 0.90 in Armenia. We estimate that the geographic origin of hg G plausibly locates somewhere nearby eastern Anatolia, Armenia or western Iran."

Hovhannisyan:
"At the same time, the Armenian sample from the central region of the Armenian Highland has a comparable value of haplotype diversity (74.5%) with that of the Near Eastern populations of Syria (88.6%) and Palestine (79.3%) (see Additional file 5). Thus, our results support the recently published data on the origin of this haplogroup in the neighboring areas of eastern Anatolia, Armenia, and Western Iran [51]."
(...)
"The constructed median-joining network within the haplogroup G (Figure 7) reveals the highest level of scattering of central Armenian haplotypes as compared to various neighboring populations (Palestinians, Cherkessians, Iranians), which is expected under the assumption of the local origin of this lineage."

Ancient DNA seems to support a G arrival to South Levant in Iron Age. At least so far.



So, the "Jewish" clade perhaps Iranic in origin, like their R1a? I wonder how much of it the Iraqi and Iranian Jews have? They're probably driving up the numbers in Israel.

So, as always, eastern Anatolia, Armenia, and western Iran, but spreading at different times, clearly, given all the G2a among the early Anatolian farmers.

Then, probably, dribbles, and then this big push in the Bronze Age.

I looked at Greece and there's little info and what there is is in the low digits and not broken out, although there's 4% of the M406 version in the Sesklo area of Thessaly near where there are Mycenaean graves. What clade were the Mycenaeans?

They didn't break down Crete. I remember there was a lot of G2a there.

Well, the following isn't very helpful.
"A 2003 study of Italy had found 11.8% of 51 samples in Sicily (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicily); 8.1% of 37 samples in Calabria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calabria)...and 10% of 50 samples in north central Italy were G."

They didn't bother to add the Grugni et al data:


Haplogroup
TOTAL SAMPLE
North Italy
Central Italy
South Italy
Bergamo Valleys
Bergamo Plain
Tortona- Voghera
Borbera Valley
Volterra
Apulia
Grecìa Salentina
Ionian Calabria
Tyrrhenian Calabria
Sicily



N =
817
N =
290
N =
113
N =
414
N=
78
N=
79
N=
48
N=
85
N=
113
N=
102
N=
82
N=
93
N=
73
N=
64



Abs.
%
Abs.

Abs.
%

%
Abs.
%
Abs.
%
Abs.
%
Abs.
%
Abs.
%
Abs.
%
Abs.
%
Abs.
%
Abs.
%
Abs.
%





G-M201(xP15)
1
0.1




1
0.2
















1
1.4




G-P287*
2
0.2
1
0.3


1
0.2




1
2.1












1
1.6


G-P15*
3
0.4
1
0.3
1
0.9
1
0.2






1
1.2
1
0.9






1
1.4




G-P16
1
0.1




1
0.2


















1
1.6


G-M547*
6
0.7
1
0.3
2
1.8
3
0.7
1
1.3






2
1.8
2
2.0
1
1.2








G-P303*
5
0.6


1
0.9
4
1.0








1
0.9
2
2.0
1
1.2




1
1.6


G-L497
26
3.2
13
4.5
8
7.0
5
1.2


1
1.3
1
2.1
11
12.9
8
7.1
1
1.0


2
2.2
1
1.4
1
1.6


G-U1*
3
0.4




3
0.7














2
2.2
1
1.4




G-M527
5
0.6




5
1.2










3
2.9


1
1.1
1
1.4




G-M406*
11
1.3
2
0.7
1
0.9
8
1.9
1
1.3


1
2.1


1
0.9
3
2.9




3
4.1
2
3.1


G-Page19
4
0.5


2
1.8
2
0.5








2
1.8






1
1.4
1
1.6


G-L91
2
0.2
1
0.3


1
0.2






1
1.2


1
1.0










Hg-G
69
8.4
19
6.6
15
13.3
35
8.5
2
2.6
1
1.3
3
6.3
13
15.3
15
13.3
12
11.8
2
2.4
5
5.4
9
12.3
7
10.9

halfalp
01-06-20, 09:47
indeed :good_job:
the obsession with the steppe is amazing
like there can't be civilized culture without steppe admixture .....:thinking:

I mean... are you not " obsessed " with finding any y-dna E in all new papers? Dont be so prompt to judge other people for what they are interested into. We all are reasoning the same way for the most part.

halfalp
01-06-20, 10:19
Wait, sample ALX002 is labeled from Leila-Tepe Culture and is y-dna G1!!! Isn't it the first instance of prehistoric G1 ever? And from Leila-Tepe. Making this culture quite even more interesting now.

Riverman
01-06-20, 12:38
The Syrian samples have a significant proportion of E1b, so I don't think anything being decided about the Proto-Afro-Asiatic question. The single best candidate seems to be still a people related to Natufians, coming originally from North East Africa/Egypt and/or the bordering Levante/Southern Near East. If the Ebla samples represent Afro-Asiatics with Caucasian/Mesopotamian influx, this fits perfectly. Of course the direction of the language transmission remains open, but looking at other regions of Afro-Asiatic speech, anything else seems to make less sense.

Anfänger
01-06-20, 13:09
I couldn't find anything about R1b-V1636 in Khvalynsk or Yamnaya. David Anthony doesn't mention R1b-V1636 in Khvalynsk in a recent book about early Indo-european cultures, but maybe by now they have more precise subclades for Khvalynsk and they will be published later this year. Usually Carlos gives links for his statements about Y-DNA but not for those mentioned.
So for now confirmed R1b-V1636 are Arslantepe(Turkey),Eneolithic Piedmont(North Caucasus) and Kura-Araxes(Armenia).



Wait, sample ALX002 is labeled from Leila-Tepe Culture and is y-dna G1!!! Isn't it the first instance of prehistoric G1 ever? And from Leila-Tepe. Making this culture quite even more interesting now.
Indeed, this is one model for ALX002(3776-3661calBCE) from modern Azerbaijan:

12138


The G-M201 SNP diversity would peak in Armenia according to Rootsi et al. 2012 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3499744), but G1 diversity (https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Maxat_Zhabagin2/publication/274693345/figure/fig2/AS:[email protected]/Map-of-haplotype-diversity-of-haplogroup-G1-The-black-points-represent-the-populations.png) apparently peaks in Iran. Hovhannisyan et al. 2014 (https://investigativegenetics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13323-014-0015-6) also suggested an important spot of STR diversity (https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-PT_7tVw-vFA/VIXwnXn0QNI/AAAAAAAAD3c/UoZn6tQ1zCQ/s1600/Armenia.JPG) in the Levant (Wow! I wouldn't guess such R1b1a2 diversity in Middle East, btw), but the paper seems to support Rootsi's conclusions.

He is G1 and his autosomal DNA is very Iran_C. Maybe his ancestors were from Northern Iran/Mesopotamia/Eastern Anatolia. In all of my models all samples from this paper pick up huge chunks of this Iran_Hajji_Firuz_C-like ancestry but it arrived in different waves to different places and different times.

Anfänger
01-06-20, 13:28
This is what the paper says about the Population Turnover in the Northern Levant:


Population and Territorial State Dynamics in the Northern Levant
In contrast to the rest of Anatolia, the Northern Levant stands out as a region of the Near East with traceable post-Neolithic changes in the genetic structure. We found that the gene pools at Ebla and Alalakh can only be explained by more complex models that require additional contributions both from the Caucasus and Southern Levant. The inclusion of a source related to the Caucasus in our proposed model raises the question whether this turnover could be linked to the expansion of the Transcaucasian Kura-Araxes material culture to the Levant. This expansion is recorded in the region of the Northern Levant ca. 2800 BCE and could be associated with the movement/ migration of people from Eastern Anatolia and the Southern Caucasian highlands (Greenberg and Palumbi, 2015; Greenberg et al., 2014). However, our results do not support this scenario for a number of reasons: (1) we do not find any substantial increase of Caucasus-related ancestry in the populations of the primary expansion area of Kura-Araxes (e.g., Eastern Anatolia), (2) populations from the highlands of the Southern Caucasus— including individuals from a Kura-Araxes context (‘‘L.Caucasu- s_EBA’’)—as secondary source populations also fail, and (3) so do models with Arslantepe from Eastern Anatolia, a population located mid-way along the proposed expansion route from the Southern Caucasus to the Northern Levant.
Consequently, these interpretative caveats call for consideration of alternative historical scenarios, including scenarios of multiple gene-flow events that could have taken place in the intervening two millennia between the Tell Kurdu population and those of Bronze Age Ebla and Alalakh. However, written sources, archaeological, and paleoclimatic evidence suggest that a narrower time period—the end of the EBA—had been very critical with respect to political tensions and population mobility. It was during this period, for example, that Ebla was destroyed twice and reestablished at the beginning of MBA. There are extensive textual references from the end of the EBA through the LBA referring to groups of people arriving into the area of the Amuq Valley. Although these groups were named, likely based on designations (e.g., Amorites, Hurrians), the formative context of their (cultural) identity and their geographic origins remain debated. One recent hypothesis (Weiss, 2014, 2017; Akar and Kara, 2020) associates the arrival of these groups with climate-forced population movement during the ‘‘4.2k BP event,’’ a Mega Drought that led to the abandonment of the entire Khabur river valley in Northern Mesopotamia and the search of nearby habitable areas.
Taking the above into consideration, we suggest that the ancestries we inferred for Alalakh and Ebla might best describe the genetic make-up of the EBA populations of unsampled Northern Mesopotamia. During the following MBA and LBA, we find no evidence of genetic disruption, even though shifts in territorial control dynamics between kingdoms/empires affected Ebla’s and Alalakh’s socio-cultural development (see STAR Methods).
Nevertheless, the case of the Alalakh individual with likely Central Asian origin is a finding that can be interpreted within the context of nascent internationalism of the Middle and Late Bronze Age Eastern Mediterranean societies. It calls for future research on the various societal features of this phenomenon and how these are reflected on the individual life histories.

Riverman
01-06-20, 13:47
The most parsimonious interpretation would be that the Caucasian influence, like we see it in Hurrians, being associated with the increased Caucasian-Iranian ancestry and the Semitic with Natufian-Levantine.

halfalp
01-06-20, 13:56
I couldn't find anything about R1b-V1636 in Khvalynsk or Yamnaya. David Anthony doesn't mention R1b-V1636 in Khvalynsk in a recent book about early Indo-european cultures, but maybe by now they have more precise subclades for Khvalynsk and they will be published later this year. Usually Carlos gives links for his statements about Y-DNA but not for those mentioned.
So for now confirmed R1b-V1636 are Arslantepe(Turkey),Eneolithic Piedmont(North Caucasus) and Kura-Araxes(Armenia).



Indeed, this is one model for ALX002(3776-3661calBCE) from modern Azerbaijan:

12138



He is G1 and his autosomal DNA is very Iran_C. Maybe his ancestors were from Northern Iran/Mesopotamia/Eastern Anatolia. In all of my models all samples from this paper pick up huge chunks of this Iran_Hajji_Firuz_C-like ancestry but it arrived in different waves to different places and different times.


I could be completely off, but i know new samples from Khvalynsk were already leaked. With some R1b,R1a,J1 and others.

Anfänger
01-06-20, 14:15
I could be completely off, but i know new samples from Khvalynsk were already leaked. With some R1b,R1a,J1 and others.

Yes this is the same info i have but are the subclades that precise like R1b-V1636 ?
This is what David Anthony wrote in the book I mentioned :

12139

According to him Khvalynsk men are overwhelmingly R1b, 5xQ1a(richly endowed) and single males J1,R1a,I2. Maybe by now they have more precise subclades for the R1b men. Do you have more info about the subclades ?

Angela
01-06-20, 14:29
The most parsimonious interpretation would be that the Caucasian influence, like we see it in Hurrians, being associated with the increased Caucasian-Iranian ancestry and the Semitic with Natufian-Levantine.

Except that the J1 came from the north, and Caucasus fails as the mixing source.

Amazing, also, the presence of J1 on the Pontic Caspian steppe, a type of J1 related to Satsurbia in the Caucasus. I thought it was settled that only women from the south were allowed onto the steppe?

halfalp
01-06-20, 14:29
Yes this is the same info i have but are the subclades that precise like R1b-V1636 ?
This is what David Anthony wrote in the book I mentioned :

12139

According to him Khvalynsk men are overwhelmingly R1b, 5xQ1a(richly endowed) and single males J1,R1a,I2. Maybe by now they have more precise subclades for the R1b men. Do you have more info about the subclades ?

I have nothing more precise.

Olympus Mons
01-06-20, 15:04
Yes this is the same info i have but are the subclades that precise like R1b-V1636 ?
This is what David Anthony wrote in the book I mentioned :



According to him Khvalynsk men are overwhelmingly R1b, 5xQ1a(richly endowed) and single males J1,R1a,I2. Maybe by now they have more precise subclades for the R1b men. Do you have more info about the subclades ?

Hi Anfanger.
You right it needs to be clarified - But many people have it as given (Carlos Quiles, Davidki, etc) that the Kvhanlink R1b1a (L754), sample I0122 is actually a V1639. If I can will try to get the details... or someone who is still engaging Carlos Quiles can ask him as well.


PS: which actually begs the question. When samples were scarce Khva guys were ok for ancestors of Yamnaya and all, L754 was ok because they could be the ancestor of M269... but when they don't need it anymore then suddenly they figure it out it was V1636 (so not ancestor at all of Z2103 of Yamnaya) - A coincidence, I am sure.

halfalp
01-06-20, 15:14
Except that the J1 came from the north, and Caucasus fails as the mixing source.

Amazing, also, the presence of J1 on the Pontic Caspian steppe, a type of J1 related to Satsurbia in the Caucasus. I thought it was settled that only women from the south were allowed onto the steppe?

How do we know J1 was from the South? Satsurblia? Why a 100% EHG J1 is coming from South, but a non-Steppe R1b-V1636 comes from South too? People have a tendencies to make the Middle-East a center line of Expansion or Absorbtion. We dont know, or dont have a clear cut on the dynamic of those ancient populations, and of those lineages. CHG is the fusion of a Northern ( ANE/EHG ) ancestry and a Southern one ( BA [Dzudzuana?] ). We dont know were it formed exactly, but we can say for sure, that it was found both North and South of the Caucasus range, exactly as J1 and R1b-V1636 are found both North and South of the Caucasus Range, with different ancestry.

kingjohn
01-06-20, 15:55
The Syrian samples have a significant proportion of E1b, so I don't think anything being decided about the Proto-Afro-Asiatic question. The single best candidate seems to be still a people related to Natufians, coming originally from North East Africa/Egypt and/or the bordering Levante/Southern Near East. If the Ebla samples represent Afro-Asiatics with Caucasian/Mesopotamian influx, this fits perfectly. Of course the direction of the language transmission remains open, but looking at other regions of Afro-Asiatic speech, anything else seems to make less sense.

like ART015 from arslantepe the Ebla e1b1b1 sample belong
to e1b1b1-L795

ETM010 E1b1b1b2a1a1~ CTS4483/L795
at the moment
it look like e-m78 branches entered Europe from north west africa ( and not anatolia ):thinking:
as among the tarfolat samples was found e-L618 the ancestor of e-v13
and the e-v13 snp probably originated in med Europe
and up untill now most of the E1B1B1 ancient remains from middle east: belong to branches E-z830 ,E-m34 and ,E-m34-L795
there was 1 e-m78 in ain gazzal that could be E-v22 though:thinking:

Anfänger
01-06-20, 16:16
Hi Anfanger.
You right it needs to be clarified - But many people have it as given (Carlos Quiles, Davidki, etc) that the Kvhanlink R1b1a (L754), sample I0122 is actually a V1639. If I can will try to get the details... or someone who is still engaging Carlos Quiles can ask him as well.


PS: which actually begs the question. When samples were scarce Khva guys were ok for ancestors of Yamnaya and all, L754 was ok because they could be the ancestor of M269... but when they don't need it anymore then suddenly they figure it out it was V1636 (so not ancestor at all of Z2103 of Yamnaya) - A coincidence, I am sure.

Interessting, I0122 is one of the old published Khvaylnsk samples. Hmm I can't say anything about the Khvaylnsk culture, there are lot of speculation and romours involved in the "Yamnaya ancestor or not" issue. Still, we have to wait for the paper. I hope in the coming paper they also tested some samples more south of Khvalynsk like Orlovka and/or Lower Don/Volga because there is definitely a southern-rich(CHG/Iran-like) population moving north.

Angela
01-06-20, 16:28
How do we know J1 was from the South? Satsurblia? Why a 100% EHG J1 is coming from South, but a non-Steppe R1b-V1636 comes from South too? People have a tendencies to make the Middle-East a center line of Expansion or Absorbtion. We dont know, or dont have a clear cut on the dynamic of those ancient populations, and of those lineages. CHG is the fusion of a Northern ( ANE/EHG ) ancestry and a Southern one ( BA [Dzudzuana?] ). We dont know were it formed exactly, but we can say for sure, that it was found both North and South of the Caucasus range, exactly as J1 and R1b-V1636 are found both North and South of the Caucasus Range, with different ancestry.

Halfalp, think about it without your ideology blinders on. Why does this bother you people so much? It was millenia ago.

There was extremely significant population expansion from the areas of western/southwestern Anatolia and the Caucasus in all directions. It's completely obvious in every ancient dna paper.

J1 moved south to north carrying CHG with it. CHG didn't exist in the frozen north.

It's time to stop trying to clutch at straws.

Angela
01-06-20, 16:34
like ART015 from arslantepe the Ebla e1b1b1 sample belong
to e1b1b1-L795

ETM010 E1b1b1b2a1a1~ CTS4483/L795
at the moment
it look like e-m78 branches entered Europe from north west africa ( and not anatolia ):thinking:
as among the tarfolat samples was found e-L618 the ancestor of e-v13
and the e-v13 snp probably originated in med Europe
and up untill now most of the E1B1B1 ancient remains from middle east: belong to branches E-z830 ,E-m34 and ,E-m34-L795
there was 1 e-m78 in ain gazzal that could be E-v22 though:thinking:

I'm not sure I understand your reasoning.

Are you saying from northwest Africa through Spain, then all the way to the Balkans to massively expand in the Bronze Age?

Other than the E-m78 in Catalonia, are there any other samples from Iberia?

Are you saying it's not possible it moved from northwest Africa to the Levant, Anatolia, and then southeast Europe?

halfalp
01-06-20, 16:46
Halfalp, think about it without your ideology blinders on. Why does this bother you people so much? It was millenia ago.

There was extremely significant population expansion from the areas of western/southwestern Anatolia and the Caucasus in all directions. It's completely obvious in every ancient dna paper.

J1 moved south to north carrying CHG with it. CHG didn't exist in the frozen north.

It's time to stop trying to clutch at straws.

Aren't you the one bothered? Everything you just wrote about J1 and CHG is your own speculation. You quite dont seem to apply the same rules to yourself whether it's North or South.

kingjohn
01-06-20, 16:55
I'm not sure I understand your reasoning.

Are you saying from northwest Africa through Spain, then all the way to the Balkans to massively expand in the Bronze Age?

Other than the E-m78 in Catalonia, are there any other samples from Iberia?

Are you saying it's not possible it moved from northwest Africa to the Levant, Anatolia, and then southeast Europe?

it is possible :smile:
but angela at the moment ( could change in the future)
most of the e1b1b1 remains from levant antolia / armenia
are from e-z830 and its downstream
not e-m78 ( except the one sample i mention in ain gazhal ppnb jordan )
also there was no e1b1b1 in the barcin antolian farmers individuals .......:thinking:
lets just say there is still a lot of mystery about e-m78 and e-v13 specifically ....
the archelogical data don't support an enterence from antolia at the moment :thinking:

Angela
01-06-20, 17:05
Aren't you the one bothered? Everything you just wrote about J1 and CHG is your own speculation. You quite dont seem to apply the same rules to yourself whether it's North or South.

I don't give a darn either way, halfalp, just as it doesn't matter to me other than as a minor point of scientific interest whether the Anatolian languages moved from the steppe down through the Caucasus, or from the Balkans to the Caucasus, or probably less likely, originated in situ. What I do know is that there's no definitive evidence for any of the hypotheses. Plus, it's way too long ago for me to care. If you haven't noticed, I post very little about the whole unending quest for the origin of the "REAL" Indo-Europeans and their langague. Frankly, it's starting to bore me to tears, but when an obviously poorly substantiated claim is made I'm not going to sit here and let newbies or whoever be misled. There's enough false information on the internet.

To repeat, wherever IJ split, I wound up in one area, J in another, and the "R" lineages somewhere else. The population which carried the CHG which wound up on the steppe carried Ydna "J". The massive spread of ancestry from western/southwestern Anatolia and the Caucasus in all directions is incontrovertible. It's also incontrovertible that the difference between CHG and Iran Neo is extremely small. Are you or anyone else going to seriously propose that CHG is NORTHERN because of that small bit of minority ancestry?

That's what I try to do...follow the data as logically as humanly possible, and make reasoned deductions from it. When there's not enough data to come to a firm conclusion, I say so. When the data becomes available, I say so, and if that means admitting I was wrong, I do that too.

If I may blow my own horn a bit, my record so far is quite good, something which can't be claimed for the people whom you prefer to believe, but that's because I FOLLOW THE DATA. For goodness sakes, I've spent the majority of my working life making my living doing that; I'm not going to suddenly change the habits of a lifetime.

What you wrote is completely unsupported speculation which you pulled from the blog of a known Nordicist/Slavicist, whose funding is unknown. Regardless, if data someday is found which supports it, I'll happily change my mind.

I think that about covers it.

I have nothing further to say to you on the subject since you have no data to proffer or papers to cite.

Think what you want; true believers always do, because it's never about evidence and proof; it's about ideology.

Olympus Mons
01-06-20, 17:30
And while we are at it (it being about mysteries),
I still have to figure out how the Kum6 girl vanished from the databases and references...

Se was H2a and even enough mutations to be considered H2a3. Now, even when she shows up, there is no reference to it



S3.2 Mitochondrial HaplogroupsWe called consensus sequences for the mitochondria of all samples using the mpileup and vcfutils.pl (vcf2fq) tools in thesamtools package with default parameters [S65]. Sequence polymorphisms are reported against RSRS [S66] and werephylogenetically analyzed using HaploFind [S67] and PhyloTree Build 16 [S68] to assign sequences to previouslyannotated haplogroups. The average mitochondrial genome coverage was 21x for Kum6 and 1.5x for Kum4. The Kum6mitochondrial genome has 39 mutations classifying it as haplogroup H2a (Table S3b). Twelve additional mutations werefound in the consensus sequence. One of these is G16274A, which together with T10810C, defines subhaplogroup H2a3.Therefore, Kum6 seems to be an ancestral lineage to H2a3 as it has acquired the defining transition at nucleotide position16274 but lacks the back mutation at nucleotide position 10810. Nine of the remaining additional mutations are supportedby only one or two reads and the majorities of them are unique and not present in PhyloTree. Further, eight of thesemutations are C to T or G to A transitions that can likely be attributed to post-mortem damage alterations [S69]. The lastadditional polymorphism, A6527G, may be a true mutation in Kum6 as it, like most of the 39 haplogroup definingmutations as well as the transitions at nucleotide position 10810 and nucleotide position 16274, is covered by >10 sequencereads.

halfalp
01-06-20, 17:43
I don't give a darn either way, halfalp, just as it doesn't matter to me other than as a minor point of scientific interest whether the Anatolian languages moved from the steppe down through the Caucasus, or from the Balkans to the Caucasus, or probably less likely, originated in situ. What I do know is that there's no definitive evidence for any of the hypotheses. Plus, it's way too long ago for me to care. If you haven't noticed, I post very little about the whole unending quest for the origin of the "REAL" Indo-Europeans and their langague. Frankly, it's starting to bore me to tears, but when an obviously poorly substantiated claim is made I'm not going to sit here and let newbies or whoever be misled. There's enough false information on the internet.

To repeat, wherever IJ split, I wound up in one area, J in another, and the "R" lineages somewhere else. The population which carried the CHG which wound up on the steppe carried Ydna "J". The massive spread of ancestry from western/southwestern Anatolia and the Caucasus in all directions is incontrovertible. It's also incontrovertible that the difference between CHG and Iran Neo is extremely small. Are you or anyone else going to seriously propose that CHG is NORTHERN because of that small bit of minority ancestry?

That's what I try to do...follow the data as logically as humanly possible, and make reasoned deductions from it. When there's not enough data to come to a firm conclusion, I say so. When the data becomes available, I say so, and if that means admitting I was wrong, I do that too.

If I may blow my own horn a bit, my record so far is quite good, something which can't be claimed for the people whom you prefer to believe, but that's because I FOLLOW THE DATA. For goodness sakes, I've spent the majority of my working life making my living doing that; I'm not going to suddenly change the habits of a lifetime.

What you wrote is completely unsupported speculation which you pulled from the blog of a known Nordicist/Slavicist, whose funding is unknown. Regardless, if data someday is found which supports it, I'll happily change my mind.

I think that about covers it.

I have nothing further to say to you on the subject since you have no data to proffer or papers to cite.

Think what you want; true believers always do, because it's never about evidence and proof; it's about ideology.

I'm not talking about IE hypothesis. My point was that Lineage=/=Ancestry. And that J1 being 100% EHG in Eastern Europe, or R1b-V1636 being found without any EHG/Steppe ancestry are to be taking with the same argument. I'm actually not believing CHG came from Eastern Europe, but nothing support it came from South Caucasus neither, the junction point, wich is obviously near Caucasus are not found yet.

Why suddenly this R1b-V1636 sounds like it comes like a long waited relief for some people, when the rules it concerns, are the same everywhere else. We suddenly close the Caucasus road for no reason, no actual real scientific consensus but for convictions. When it should not be.

I still dont understand why you are Policing so hard, with strong words like Ideology, when we can't us, as lambda users, reply to this with arguments, because we get banned. No free speech and some lack of deontology right there.

And btw, why always citing Davidski or Carlos Quiles, that's not a good publicity to have all Anthrogenica, Eurogenes or anyone else always criticize, the karma can change fast.

kingjohn
01-06-20, 18:18
ok angela
i check myself again
i saw this :thinking:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Db3e1kTL9vsQ3ZP9HPH8sufse5vE-cAtjxtjqv17sGI/edit#gid=0
i never knew that one of the barcin individuals was e1b1b1 - bar11 :good_job:
if he was e-L618 or than there could be option of entrance from anatolia to balkan and the rest of europe

Regio X
01-06-20, 18:21
So, the "Jewish" clade perhaps Iranic in origin, like their R1a? I wonder how much of it the Iraqi and Iranian Jews have? They're probably driving up the numbers in Israel.

So, as always, eastern Anatolia, Armenia, and western Iran, but spreading at different times, clearly, given all the G2a among the early Anatolian farmers.

Then, probably, dribbles, and then this big push in the Bronze Age.

I looked at Greece and there's little info and what there is is in the low digits and not broken out, although there's 4% of the M406 version in the Sesklo area of Thessaly near where there are Mycenaean graves. What clade were the Mycenaeans?

They didn't break down Crete. I remember there was a lot of G2a there.

Well, the following isn't very helpful.
"A 2003 study of Italy had found 11.8% of 51 samples in Sicily (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicily); 8.1% of 37 samples in Calabria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calabria)...and 10% of 50 samples in north central Italy were G."

They didn't bother to add the Grugni et al data:


Haplogroup
TOTAL SAMPLE
North Italy
Central Italy
South Italy
Bergamo Valleys
Bergamo Plain
Tortona- Voghera
Borbera Valley
Volterra
Apulia
Grecìa Salentina
Ionian Calabria
Tyrrhenian Calabria
Sicily



N =
817
N =
290
N =
113
N =
414
N=
78
N=
79
N=
48
N=
85
N=
113
N=
102
N=
82
N=
93
N=
73
N=
64



Abs.
%
Abs.

Abs.
%

%
Abs.
%
Abs.
%
Abs.
%
Abs.
%
Abs.
%
Abs.
%
Abs.
%
Abs.
%
Abs.
%
Abs.
%





G-M201(xP15)
1
0.1




1
0.2
















1
1.4




G-P287*
2
0.2
1
0.3


1
0.2




1
2.1












1
1.6


G-P15*
3
0.4
1
0.3
1
0.9
1
0.2






1
1.2
1
0.9






1
1.4




G-P16
1
0.1




1
0.2


















1
1.6


G-M547*
6
0.7
1
0.3
2
1.8
3
0.7
1
1.3






2
1.8
2
2.0
1
1.2








G-P303*
5
0.6


1
0.9
4
1.0








1
0.9
2
2.0
1
1.2




1
1.6


G-L497
26
3.2
13
4.5
8
7.0
5
1.2


1
1.3
1
2.1
11
12.9
8
7.1
1
1.0


2
2.2
1
1.4
1
1.6


G-U1*
3
0.4




3
0.7














2
2.2
1
1.4




G-M527
5
0.6




5
1.2










3
2.9


1
1.1
1
1.4




G-M406*
11
1.3
2
0.7
1
0.9
8
1.9
1
1.3


1
2.1


1
0.9
3
2.9




3
4.1
2
3.1


G-Page19
4
0.5


2
1.8
2
0.5








2
1.8






1
1.4
1
1.6


G-L91
2
0.2
1
0.3


1
0.2






1
1.2


1
1.0










Hg-G
69
8.4
19
6.6
15
13.3
35
8.5
2
2.6
1
1.3
3
6.3
13
15.3
15
13.3
12
11.8
2
2.4
5
5.4
9
12.3
7
10.9


Yes, possibly around E. Anatolia, Armenia and W. Iran, but I don't know how it was spread few thousands of years later. As you suggested, it must have spread in different times/ways.
Anyway, as a side note, for the sake of precision, I'd say that diversity doesn"t necessarily "prove" the origin of the MRCA. It's a clue anyway. We could conclude that in theory this individual and his closer descendants lived in that zone or not far from it. For example, if the clade was well spread and diverse around all that area and then just shrank in some parts and not in others for whatever reasons, it could led us to "imprecisions". All that said, there are those who believe that G expanded from somewhere in (North) Fertile Crescent, but either way it'd not be that far from this zone proposed by Rootsi and Hovhannisyan. What I don't understand though is why it'd have arrived supposedly so late in S. Levant.
Finally, the hotspot of G1 diversity is not just in Iran. I missed the spot in what is now NE Turkey.

As for Iraqi Jews, apparently they have something as ~10% of G-M201, and Iranians would have virtually none. But you know that these %s may vary from study to study, depending on sampling.
It called my atention that G-M201 is uncommon in Morocco as a whole, but it'd not be uncommon among Moroccan Jews.
Yes, Crete and Cyprus have a relevant % of G-M201.
Concerning Mycenaeans, we have just one Y hg if I'm not mistaken, and it's J2a1. One Minoan was G2a, yes, but he was G-P303 (so not G-M406), while the other two were J2a1 (as the Mycenaean).

@halfalp
There is also a G1a from Chalco W. Iran, 6900-5800 years old.

Angela
01-06-20, 18:24
ok angela
i check myself again
i saw this :thinking:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Db3e1kTL9vsQ3ZP9HPH8sufse5vE-cAtjxtjqv17sGI/edit#gid=0
i never knew that one of the barcin individuals was e1b1b1 - bar11 :good_job:
if he was e-L618 or than there could be option of entrance from anatolia to balkan and the rest of europe


Thanks for the update. Yes, I thought I based that hypothesis on something other than speculation. :)

Angela
01-06-20, 18:39
Yes, possibly around E. Anatolia, Armenia and W. Iran, but I don't know how it was spread few thousands of years later. As you said, it must have spread at different times.
Anyway, as a side note, for the sake of precision, I'd say that diversity doesn"t necessarily "prove" the origin of the MRCA. It's a clue anyway. We could conclude that in theory this individual and his closer descendants lived in that zone or not far from it. For example, if the clade was well spread and diverse around all that area and then just shrank in some parts and not in others for whatever reasons, it could led us to "imprecisions". All that said, there are those who believe that G expanded from somewhere in (North) Fertile Crescent, but either way it'd not be that far from this zone proposed by Rootsi and Hovhannisyan. What I don't understand though is why it'd have arrived supposedly so late in S. Levant.

Finally, the hotspot of G1 diversity is not just in Iran. I missed the spot in what is now NE Turkey.

As for Iraqi Jews, apparently they have something as ~10% of G-M201, and Iranians would have virtually none. But you know that these %s may vary from study to study, depending on sampling.

It called my atention that G-M201 is uncommon in Morocco as a whole, but it'd not be that uncommon among Moroccan Jews.
Yes, Crete and Cyprus have a relevant % of G-M201.
Concerning Mycenaeans, we have just one Y hg if I'm not mistaken, and it's J2a1. One Minoan was G2a, yes, but he was G-P303 (so not G-M406), while the other two were J2a1 (as the Mycenaean).

@halfalp
There is also a G1a from Chalco W. Iran, 6900-5800 years old.

Thank you, Regio. Sorry, I misspoke. I meant the Minoan. As you can probably tell, I'm a bit distracted lately; lots going on in my life.

As to the late arrival in the Levant, I used to know quite a bit about the archaeology of the Near East, although it's fading now for lack of keeping up with it, but I have a vague recollection of climate change (dryness) between the Early and Middle Bronze Age, and then relative stability from Middle to Late Bronze Age. That "might", and I say "might" because I'd have to verify that. Perhaps pastoralists looking for more food for their herds?

Yes, the sampling data is all over the place. Grugni et al collected data from various papers, but came up with relatively low numbers for G2a2 clades in the center and south, quite a bit lower than Maciamo's map shows. The north down through Toscana seems a pretty clean sweep for L497 from that data, however.

Do you have the TMRCA of G-M406 to hand? I'm assuming Anatolia as origin, but there doesn't seem to be much there now.

Riverman
01-06-20, 20:07
Except that the J1 came from the north, and Caucasus fails as the mixing source.

Amazing, also, the presence of J1 on the Pontic Caspian steppe, a type of J1 related to Satsurbia in the Caucasus. I thought it was settled that only women from the south were allowed onto the steppe?

I never said that. Men and women came to the steppe, both from the West (Neolithics) as well as from the South East (Caucasian HG and early Neolithics) but mostly female lineages survived after the steppe hunter clans took over and expanded from the Lower Don Culture horizon in all directions.

Regio X
02-06-20, 04:31
Thank you, Regio. Sorry, I misspoke. I meant the Minoan. As you can probably tell, I'm a bit distracted lately; lots going on in my life.

As to the late arrival in the Levant, I used to know quite a bit about the archaeology of the Near East, although it's fading now for lack of keeping up with it, but I have a vague recollection of climate change (dryness) between the Early and Middle Bronze Age, and then relative stability from Middle to Late Bronze Age. That "might", and I say "might" because I'd have to verify that. Perhaps pastoralists looking for more food for their herds?

Yes, the sampling data is all over the place. Grugni et al collected data from various papers, but came up with relatively low numbers for G2a2 clades in the center and south, quite a bit lower than Maciamo's map shows. The north down through Toscana seems a pretty clean sweep for L497 from that data, however.

Do you have the TMRCA of G-M406 to hand? I'm assuming Anatolia as origin, but there doesn't seem to be much there now.No problem at all. Hope you overcome these things that are going on, whatever they are. :)

Grugni included more than 800 samples. Nice.
I think all these regional variances in Italy make difficult to get more similar numbers in different studies or sources. Anyway, we can have an idea.
Central Italy would have a good amount of G-L497, indeed, with some interesting spots. Boattini et al., for example, could have found something close to 15% for G-L497 in Foligno, at least based on DYS388>=13, but just SNP tests could confirm it. In the case of Italy as a whole, my own impression is that this clade has a higher diversity in ~NW and a higher frequency in NE, which is in line with papers.

The TMRCA of G-M406 is 12500 ybp. It looks pretty possible it originated in East Anatolia. Let's see if ancient DNA helps on this.
As for Turkey, there must be different frequencies of G-M406 , naturally, depending on the area. The % of G-M201 in Turkey as a whole woud be ~11%, and supposedly half of them are G-M406, which roughly corresponds to an estimation of ~6% I saw somewhere for G-M406 in this country. There would be some interesting spots of G-M406 in Dagestan as well, among Chamalal and Lezgins - at 18 and 12% respectivelly -, and in other areas.
Interesting to notice the Turkish "diversity" when it comes to Y-DNA. The most frequent, J2, is up to 25% (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Turkish_people):

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/Turkey_Y_chromosome%28in_20_haplogroups%29.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/HaplogroupdifferencesbetweenTurksandGreeks.jpg

Angela
02-06-20, 13:30
I never said that. Men and women came to the steppe, both from the West (Neolithics) as well as from the South East (Caucasian HG and early Neolithics) but mostly female lineages survived after the steppe hunter clans took over and expanded from the Lower Don Culture horizon in all directions.

I wasn't referring to you, Riverman.

That was, however, certainly the boast from some quarters: gene flow from the south was strictly female mediated. I believe another one was: no yDna "J" will be found on the steppe. I once said some people are so often wrong that you could fill the phone directory of a small city with their wrong predictions. I stand by it.

I have a prodigious memory for things which I consider noteworthy, and when I don't I have copious screen shots, so the re-writing of history doesn't work.

Riverman
02-06-20, 14:50
I wasn't referring to you, Riverman.

That was, however, certainly the boast from some quarters: gene flow from the south was strictly female mediated. I believe another one was: no yDna "J" will be found on the steppe. I once said some people are so often wrong that you could fill the phone directory of a small city with their wrong predictions. I stand by it.

I have a prodigious memory for things which I consider noteworthy, and when I don't I have copious screen shots, so the re-writing of history doesn't work.

Ok, I just thought its important to say anyway and want to add another one, namely that I believe and do so for quite some time, that in the earliest Lower Don settlements, which kicked off the first steppe people transformation, haplogroup J might have been equal or even dominant. That really changed only when the local hunter-fisher lineages took over and with every expansion that followed the small remains of Caucasian lineages largely disappeared. But I really think that J made it to the crucial Lower Don area, similar to the farmers further West. They contributed cultural innovations and women, but couldn't stand their ground against the local hunters, which just took up the gift of cultural and genetic innovations and profited from it big time in the steppe people's expansion that followed.

bicicleur
02-06-20, 15:37
Ok, I just thought its important to say anyway and want to add another one, namely that I believe and do so for quite some time, that in the earliest Lower Don settlements, which kicked off the first steppe people transformation, haplogroup J might have been equal or even dominant. That really changed only when the local hunter-fisher lineages took over and with every expansion that followed the small remains of Caucasian lineages largely disappeared. But I really think that J made it to the crucial Lower Don area, similar to the farmers further West. They contributed cultural innovations and women, but couldn't stand their ground against the local hunters, which just took up the gift of cultural and genetic innovations and profited from it big time in the steppe people's expansion that followed.
for eastern Europe, there is a gap between Sungir/Vestonice cluster (some 32 ka) and the arrival of R1 EHG clades (some 15 ka)
I would guess the Y-DNA in that period in eastern Europe was I, and if not it was J - but not the J like in Transcaucasia that was admixed with Basal Eurasian to transform into Dzudzuana
not that it matters much, the Y-DNA of that period in eastern Europe went extinct
but certainly the mtDNA (subclades of U5, U4, etc.) survived, because EHG is +/- 25 % ANE admixed with 75 % WHG

Regio X
02-06-20, 16:18
for eastern Europe, there is a gap between Sungir/Vestonice cluster (some 32 ka) and the arrival of R1 EHG clades (some 15 ka)
I would guess the Y-DNA in that period in eastern Europe was I, and if not it was J - but not the J like in Transcaucasia that was admixed with Basal Eurasian to transform into Dzudzuana
not that it matters much, the Y-DNA of that period in eastern Europe went extinct
but certainly the mtDNA (subclades of U5, U4, etc.) survived, because EHG is +/- 25 % ANE admixed with 75 % WHGPerhaps the other way around: 75% ANE and 25% WHG.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Hunter-Gatherer
"EHGs are believed to have been of about 75% Ancient North Eurasian (ANE) descent"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_North_Eurasian
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_North_Eurasian)"Eastern European Hunter-Gatherer (EHG) is a lineage derived predominantly (75%) from ANE"

Supposedly from Lazaridis et al. 2016:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5003663/
(https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5003663/)
Iran Neo would be 50% ANE, while CHG would be 36%. Supposedly from Lazaridis et al. 2018:
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/423079v1

etrusco
02-06-20, 23:15
Perhaps the other way around: 75% ANE and 25% WHG.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Hunter-Gatherer
"EHGs are believed to have been of about 75% Ancient North Eurasian (ANE) descent"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_North_Eurasian
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_North_Eurasian)"Eastern European Hunter-Gatherer (EHG) is a lineage derived predominantly (75%) from ANE"

Supposedly from Lazaridis et al. 2016:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5003663/
(https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5003663/)
Iran Neo would be 50% ANE, while CHG would be 36%. Supposedly from Lazaridis et al. 2018:
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/423079v1

the EHG are circa 40/50% WHG and the rest ANE
Reality is however that ANE itself can be modeled as derived circa 75% gravettian and the rest ANA.
Since gravettian can be considered an older layer of WHG ( proto WHG) at the end EHG is indeed something like 75/80% WHG and the rest something related to Afontonova Gora

bigsnake49
02-06-20, 23:48
Interesting data on Greek Thrace, more I2 and R1a than the rest of Greece. Do we have any info on the clades? Are they Slavic clades? I would be interested in the original study.

Regio X
03-06-20, 03:16
the EHG are circa 40/50% WHG and the rest ANE
Reality is however that ANE itself can be modeled as derived circa 75% gravettian and the rest ANA.
Since gravettian can be considered an older layer of WHG ( proto WHG) at the end EHG is indeed something like 75/80% WHG and the rest something related to Afontonova GoraI'm taking a look to the related paper now, and I see you guys were discussing it few time ago: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/39844-What-do-you-think-about-the-latest-publication-on-the-Eurogenes-blog/page2
(https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/39844-What-do-you-think-about-the-latest-publication-on-the-Eurogenes-blog/page2)
ED: I could not find this modeling involving Gravettian. Do you have the source in hand?

bicicleur
03-06-20, 07:10
WHG - Villabruna cluster - is proto-Gravettian, almost without admixture
El Miron cluster - 15 ka Goyet Magdalenian - is Gravettian admixed with Aurignacian
Vestonice cluster is Gravettian admixed with Paleolithic Kostenki
Sungir is very similar to Vestonice

In eastern Europe WHG females mixed with incoming ANE males to form EHG.
Near the Caucasus incoming ANE/EHG mixed with Dzudzuana to form CHG.

etrusco
03-06-20, 15:51
I'm taking a look to the related paper now, and I see you guys were discussing it few time ago: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/39844-What-do-you-think-about-the-latest-publication-on-the-Eurogenes-blog/page2
(https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/39844-What-do-you-think-about-the-latest-publication-on-the-Eurogenes-blog/page2)
ED: I could not find this modeling involving Gravettian. Do you have the source in hand?

from Carlos Quiles's site

but it is my fault. It seems that the western source is more similar to Goyet ( which is Aurignacian)
here is the quote ( EWE stands for early west eurasian)

Ancient North Eurasians (ANE): contributed to by ANS, an EWE source close to the Goyet cluster (ca. 75%) and an EEA population (ca. 25%).

Regio X
03-06-20, 17:25
from Carlos Quiles's site

but it is my fault. It seems that the western source is more similar to Goyet ( which is Aurignacian)
here is the quote ( EWE stands for early west eurasian)

Ancient North Eurasians (ANE): contributed to by ANS, an EWE source close to the Goyet cluster (ca. 75%) and an EEA population (ca. 25%).G25 scaled models EHG as ~75% MA1 and ~25% Villabruna, and the % of MA1 increases with unscaled to ~85%.

The following comes from https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2018/09/20/423079.DC1/423079-1.pdf

MA1 = Vestonice16 at 2.5% and AG3 at 97.5%.

https://i.imgur.com/MVj7M5H.jpg

etrusco
03-06-20, 22:00
G25 scaled models EHG as ~75% MA1 and ~25% Villabruna, and the % of MA1 increases with unscaled to ~85%.

The following comes from https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2018/09/20/423079.DC1/423079-1.pdf

MA1 = Vestonice16 at 2.5% and AG3 at 97.5%.

https://i.imgur.com/MVj7M5H.jpg

It is ok but I could never make sense how can you model Malta with Afontonova Gora and then Afontonova Gora with Malta and besides shouldn't we model every cluster with something older than that?

Regio X
04-06-20, 16:25
It is ok but I could never make sense how can you model Malta with Afontonova Gora and then Afontonova Gora with Malta and besides shouldn't we model every cluster with something older than that?They're attempts, the best models for testing possible mixtures. The conclusion, more importantly, is basically that AG3 and MA1 are very similar. Indeed, the p-value is low even comparing them directly (N=1). Check Table S3.1 from the link (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2018/09/20/423079.DC1/423079-1.pdf) I provided in a previous thread, for example.

The paper also states openly:
"We see that (MA1, AG3), the members of the 'Mal’ta cluster' are a clade"

And it continues:
"(MA1, AG3) and (Anatolia_N, Dzudzuana) are modeled as having most ancestry from each other(and we cannot reject in the N=1 analysis that they are a simple clade)."

In all attempts AG3 accounts for the most part of MA1 ancestry, and vice-versa. The lowest p-value for MA1 involves Vestonice16, but a very low contribution anyway, at least compared to AG3.

Jovialis
09-06-20, 03:17
https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/PRJEB37213

BAM files are up, but where can I find the full archeological context for the samples?

Olympus Mons
09-06-20, 11:20
https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/PRJEB37213

BAM files are up, but where can I find the full archeological context for the samples?

Hi Jovialis. Can you do anything with those bam files?... Like checking the MTT001 sample :)))

Alan
11-06-20, 01:47
Interesting, i think the eastern route hypothesis for IE Anatolian languages is dead. One R1b-V1636 sample without steppe ancestry is a very weak argument for the eastern route. I don't know about the western route but in some of my models even BMAC picks up steppe-like ancestry. I don't know what this means. Was there maybe a migration from the eneolithic steppe to BMAC ? If there was where are the relevant steppe Y-Haplogroups in BMAC ?

I got them from "G25 datasTheed ancient scaled". "He" is very fast in converting the BAM files into easy accessible format.

There is no real Steppe ancestry (Steppe in the sense of Steppe Bronze Age Indo European) in any of these samples. For the millions time if you wanted to you could even model mesolithic Iran_Hotu samples as partly Steppe admixed. All of this is just shared ancestry.

That is what all these genetic studies try to explain us. The Anatolian samples do not have excess Steppe ancestry. Excess in the sense that it could not be explained by admixture from surrounding populations.

BMAC just borders the Steppe I would have been much more suprised if there was no Steppe ancestry in BMAC. And it is much more likely that this Steppe like ancestry predates the arrival of proto Indo_Iranian speakers.


So I don't know how the absence of excess Steppe ancestry kills the eastern route theory, while in reality the Western route theory should show us much more excess Steppe admixture. That is because the route the Balkan theory gives us had excessive EHG admixture.



In short: Not every Steppe related signal means Steppe admixture. It is much more likely shared ancestry because it does not exceed the "Steppe" signal we find in the surrounding cultures. That is why Lazaridis and co. wrote in their earlier study that the Hittite sampels can be modeled as Anatolian_Neolithic + something Calcolthic/Bronze Age Caucasus like.

Alan
11-06-20, 02:02
Nonsense. That sounds a bit paranoid to be honest. The thing is that Anatolia SPOKE Indo-European languages as early as the Middle Bronze Age, and the IE languages spoken there happen to have been the most divergent and arguably archaic of all IE language groups, which suggests a migration that took place before that of the ancestors of other, less deeply diverged IE groups. So, there is obviously a search for some kind of connection to the steppe because all the other IE branches can be linked to the arrival of steppe admixture in the regions where they are spoken.

This matter has nothing to do with civilization, it's all about linguistics. You don't see people looking for evidences of steppe admixture in the Levant, Egypt or the China, because there is simply no evidence those areas spoke mainly IE languages at some time in the Bronze Age.

No, it suggests a split from the core of Indo Europeans before the others. This could be explained in two ways.

A: Anatolian and "Steppe Indo European" splitted up somewhere unknown with Steppe Indo European moving into the Steppes. and Proto Anatolian into Anatolia.

B: P-Anatolia split up from the core of the Indo Europeans on the Steppes first and moved early into Anatolia.

Genetics rather supports A. And there is not really any archeological support for B either. Any archeological influence we know of during the Neolithic to early Bronze Age is from South to North.

Alan
11-06-20, 02:16
I beg to differ too that they're only interested in steppe in Anatolia because they're just interested in linguistics. You can't be that naive, Ygorcs. They want the Mitanni to have brought steppe to other areas of the Near East too, and they used to make it much more clear that the reason was to claim the accomplishments of all those people for their own ancestors. Some idiot once told me the Sumerians were probably Indo-Europeans, a well-respected idiot by others, btw. Why do you think tens of thousands of posts were written trying to prove that the ancient Greeks and Romans were Nordics? Maybe you weren't around then?



Let me tell you something.
One of the biggest attraction of Steppe Indo_Iranians such as Scythians, Sarmatians and Cimmerians is down to the fact that they are related to the Mitanni/Medes/Parthians and Old Persians/Sassanids.

The interests in Scythians, especially in Europe grew by the fact that they are a link between Central- North Europeans and these old civilizations.

And this is why in the past some circles tried their hardest to display these ancient people as more "northern " looking as their modern counterparts. And Scythians gave them some arguing points. Since Steppe Scythians had a fair appearance, so must have the Iranic people of the ancient Near East have looked like.

There is not much doubt left that the Proto Indo_Iranian speakers derive from the Steppes. But to assume the Old Persians and Medes looked like Srubna, Sintashta or Corded Ware people is very far fetched.

Alan
11-06-20, 02:47
Dear lord!. - If this can be used as an argument... then all Dna data is irrelevant, because leaps of 800 years is all around the papers published.

Really, Some of us can state stuff like that here, but someone who does this thinking process on his blog that is supposed to be an analytical stance on published papers.... makes little sense, indeed.


Theoretically I could program a new app and become a billionair. It is "possible" but is it likely?

This is the way they argue. They present you one of the most unlikely conclusions as the best explanation. Not only Carlos but some other people too.

Alan
11-06-20, 03:16
I never said that. Men and women came to the steppe, both from the West (Neolithics) as well as from the South East (Caucasian HG and early Neolithics) but mostly female lineages survived after the steppe hunter clans took over and expanded from the Lower Don Culture horizon in all directions.
Only one clan of R1b z203 survived among the Yamnaya and it had nothing to do with the possibility that it is a Steppe lineage. Remember these guys also took over from the other "Hunter" clans of R1b and likely even some other clans of Z203 had lost the bet too. What we see on these Steppe samples is, that we are dealing with very tribal patriachal clans. The richest most influental clan gets all the ladies and all the land. The R1a dudes did lose out on the Khvalynsk/Yamnaya lottery as the J1 guys. This might be one of the bigger reasons why the Indo Europeans "expanded" so largerly. They were often basically immigrants in search of new land.

This is why highly Steppe Indo European derived cultures are much more single Haplogroup dominated compared to Indo European cultures which settled in the South or do not derive from the Steppe at all.

Riverman
11-06-20, 14:13
Only one clan of R1b z203 survived among the Yamnaya and it had nothing to do with the possibility that it is a Steppe lineage. Remember these guys also took over from the other "Hunter" clans of R1b and likely even some other clans of Z203 had lost the bet too. What we see on these Steppe samples is, that we are dealing with very tribal patriachal clans. The richest most influental clan gets all the ladies and all the land. The R1a dudes did lose out on the Khvalynsk/Yamnaya lottery as the J1 guys. This might be one of the bigger reasons why the Indo Europeans "expanded" so largerly. They were often basically immigrants in search of new land.

This is why highly Steppe Indo European derived cultures are much more single Haplogroup dominated compared to Indo European cultures which settled in the South or do not derive from the Steppe at all.

Funny, before reading your comment I wrote this:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/40048-R1a-M417-and-R1b-M269-in-the-Bronze-Age-Levant-(16th-century-BC)/page2?p=605435&viewfull=1#post605435

I said the same as you did on various occasions, but still what I said before is relevant, because when the steppe hunters took over in the Lower Don region, became dominant in the Lower Don Culture, which is absolutely crucial and central for everything, they largely replaced J-/Caucasian lineages which might have been stronger before, even dominant. That takeover made the EHG language dominant the R1-lineages. J survived, but on a much lower level than before, so their chances to win in the next round of the "lottery" by being the dominant male and clan, was drastically reduced. The difference between R1a-Sredny Stog and R1b-Yamnaya was that the first were in the West, became more like their Western neighbours, more settled, and the Yamnaya specialised on the steppe. This made them stronger and able to push, but the Western groups were the better settlers and culture builders, which made their impact even much bigger, especially because they evaded the Yamnaya pressure by moving into even better and culturally more developed lands, with many people, so many women and a lot of chances to develop on. They learned their lesson, moved up the North and in a clock like movement replaced Yamnaya with Abashevo/Sintashy/Andronovo after their technological upgrade.

But if the hunter lineages wouldn't have been the winners in the LDC, probably we would speak a Caucasian-related language and a lot more people would be J, or even more likely, they would have taken a different path altogether and everything would be different.

Progon
12-06-20, 07:52
ok angela
i check myself again
i saw this :thinking:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Db3e1kTL9vsQ3ZP9HPH8sufse5vE-cAtjxtjqv17sGI/edit#gid=0
i never knew that one of the barcin individuals was e1b1b1 - bar11 :good_job:
if he was e-L618 or than there could be option of entrance from anatolia to balkan and the rest of europe


The only Early Neolithic Culture influenced by Natufian-like/Iberomaurusian-like people was Cardial Pottery Culture. Surpsingly, E-L618 was found in Croatia in a Cardial site, and then the actual mutation of E-V13 in Spain in a Cardial site aswell. This mimicks well archeological data which says Cardial landed on North-Western Greece then Albania (I have heard there is one or two Tosk Albanians with E-L618, probably we will find among Epirotan Greeks aswell) > Croatia > Italy (where the actual mutation of E-V13 might happened and moved north in Central Europe) and finally Spain where we have the actual oldest E-V13 find so far.

kingjohn
12-06-20, 09:16
Maybe E-L618 (e-v13 ancestor) was coast hoping that could explain the distribution:thinking:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardium_pottery#/media/File%3ACardial_map.png

Riverman
12-06-20, 12:15
The only Early Neolithic Culture influenced by Natufian-like/Iberomaurusian-like people was Cardial Pottery Culture. Surpsingly, E-L618 was found in Croatia in a Cardial site, and then the actual mutation of E-V13 in Spain in a Cardial site aswell. This mimicks well archeological data which says Cardial landed on North-Western Greece then Albania (I have heard there is one or two Tosk Albanians with E-L618, probably we will find among Epirotan Greeks aswell) > Croatia > Italy (where the actual mutation of E-V13 might happened and moved north in Central Europe) and finally Spain where we have the actual oldest E-V13 find so far.




That's true, but I still think that E-V13 was either picked up in Cucuteni-Trypillia culture or the Northern Adriatic by steppe people and spread with some steppe people's expansions from then on. I guess that only very little of the original Cardial Ware related expansion survived. Also don't forget the Michelsberg results, which showed us an I2a:E1b alliance. Not sure how much of this survived, but it shows that different places can be considered for "the pick up". But the most likely scenario remains with the Carpathian region, Balkan second imho.

Progon
12-06-20, 13:06
That's true, but I still think that E-V13 was either picked up in Cucuteni-Trypillia culture or the Northern Adriatic by steppe people and spread with some steppe people's expansions from then on. I guess that only very little of the original Cardial Ware related expansion survived. Also don't forget the Michelsberg results, which showed us an I2a:E1b alliance. Not sure how much of this survived, but it shows that different places can be considered for "the pick up". But the most likely scenario remains with the Carpathian region, Balkan second imho.

The Bronze Age North Serbian samples had no E-V13, i really doubt we will see anything of E-V13 from Carpathes. Don't forget, Justinian Plague skewed the diversity in Balkans, most of founder effects are during that age, so we should expect different picture prior to that.

Progon
12-06-20, 13:28
Maybe Angelita will get angry for going off-topic, she can move it to the appropriate topic so we don't fill with posts irrelevant with the title.

Jovialis
12-06-20, 19:09
Here it is, I've created coordinates for this paper in combined format for Dodecad K7b. If anyone can provide us with the archeological context to the sample IDs, it would be very helpful:


ALA001,0,40.07,0.04,0.76,47.54,9.34,2.25
ALA002,0,38.58,0,0.65,48.9,9.61,2.26
ALA004,0,39.76,0.18,1.19,48.79,8.82,1.25
ALA008,1.65,40.16,0,1.35,49.94,6.9,0
ALA009,2.96,13.06,1.55,0,11.27,71.17,0
ALA011,1.09,39.31,0,0.95,48.25,9.6,0.79
ALA013,1.34,41.84,0,1.17,47.59,8.05,0
ALA014,0.07,43.1,1.06,0.81,50.06,4.89,0
ALA015,0,43.38,0,1.18,49.56,5.43,0.44
ALA016,0,41.75,0,1.2,48.98,8.07,0
ALA017,0,38.83,0,1.18,51.32,8.67,0
ALA019,17.75,62.79,1.62,1.32,9.37,7.15,0
ALA020,2.07,46.24,0,0.63,44.76,5.36,0.94
ALA023,0.52,40.4,0.33,0.61,49.2,8.87,0.08
ALA024,0,38.24,0,1.26,52.26,7.75,0.5
ALA025,0.06,44.68,0,0.45,47.14,7.34,0.33
ALA028,0,42.57,0,0.39,48.58,8.47,0
ALA029,0.92,41.37,0,0.87,49.33,7.5,0
ALA030,0,39.46,0.55,0.79,45.33,13.87,0
ALA035,0.22,42.91,0.61,1.22,50.69,3.73,0.63
ALA037,0,45.93,0.33,0.6,48.93,4.22,0
ALA038,0,41.91,0,1.65,54.13,2.32,0
ALA039,0.56,43.55,0.27,1.64,42.87,11.1,0
ALA084,0,54.02,0,1.74,37.76,6.47,0
ALX002_PE,0.02,44.25,0,0.86,42.27,7.2,5.4
ALX002_SR,1.36,51.29,0,1.14,37.57,8.64,0
ART001_PE,0,41.89,0,1.6,49.81,6.7,0
ART001_SR,0.16,41.48,0,1.4,50.89,6.07,0
ART004,0,51.76,0,0.77,44.08,2.65,0.74
ART005_PE,0,35.86,0,0.56,49.72,13.86,0
ART010_PE,0,46.12,0,1.11,43.5,9.11,0.16
ART011_PE,0,44.18,0,1.02,45.34,9.47,0
ART011_SR,0,44.12,0,1.1,43.87,10.44,0.47
ART012_PE,0,39.09,0,0.84,50.19,9.69,0.18
ART012_SR,0,38.53,0,1.03,51.36,9.08,0
ART014_PE,0,35.38,0,0.81,48.43,15.1,0.28
ART014_SR,0,36.21,0,1.02,48.07,14.52,0.18
ART015_PE,0,40.79,0,1.29,48.49,9.31,0.12
ART015_SR,0,42.05,0,1.08,47.68,9.19,0
ART017_PE,2.26,43.8,0,0.49,43.63,9.08,0.74
ART017_SR,0.19,44.91,0,1.54,43.53,9.38,0.46
ART018_PE,0,49.54,0.09,1.21,35.23,13.75,0.18
ART018_SR,0,49.22,0.05,1.39,35.06,13.91,0.38
ART019_PE,0.82,42.86,0,1.23,47.81,6.89,0.39
ART019_SR,0.84,41.71,0,2.18,48.08,7.19,0
ART020_PE,0,44.13,0,1.08,42.2,12.16,0.43
ART022_SR,0,42.65,0.15,1.19,46.1,9.91,0
ART024_PE,0,36.36,0,0.75,48.53,14.35,0
ART024_SR,0,35.39,0,0.73,49.86,13.79,0.23
ART026,0,43.23,0,0.81,43.92,11.07,0.96
ART027_PE,1.6,48.1,0,0.78,38.65,10.74,0.13
ART027_SR,0.3,46.23,0,0.73,40.28,12.22,0.23
ART038,0,40.23,0,0.35,48.67,10.76,0
ART039,0,50.71,0,1.18,37.62,10.49,0
ART042,0,36.79,0,1.17,49.6,12.05,0.39
CBT001,0,36.55,0,0.26,47.29,15.91,0
CBT002,0,39.8,0,0.4,47.16,12.64,0
CBT003,0,34.88,0,0,48.37,14.89,1.85
CBT004,0,39.7,0,0.44,47.74,11.88,0.24
CBT010,0,40.85,0,0.72,46.88,11.54,0.02
CBT013,0.01,40.44,0.29,0,46.13,12.86,0.27
CBT014,0,39.85,0,0.31,44.36,15.48,0
CBT015,1.27,41.38,0,0.66,43.27,12.5,0.91
CBT016,0,39.86,0,0.29,46.16,13.66,0.02
CBT018,0,33.79,0,0.65,48.46,17.08,0.02
ETM001,0.69,42.15,0,0.53,52.27,4.36,0
ETM003,53.46,21.12,0,4.48,20.94,0,0
ETM004,0,43.1,0,1.42,52.06,3.31,0.11
ETM006,0,39.31,0,0,51.09,9.61,0
ETM010,1.23,38.75,0,3.85,46.17,8.35,1.66
ETM012,2.48,36.7,0,0.89,51.23,7.61,1.08
ETM015,0,38.44,9.47,0,36.14,15.95,0
ETM016,0,40.95,0,1.81,48.25,8.77,0.23
ETM017,32.52,2.05,26.4,0,0,39.03,0
ETM018,0.24,39.3,0,1.7,50.7,6.58,1.48
ETM021,0.24,17.49,14.03,0,29.61,38.64,0
ETM023,2.6,42.75,0,0.93,47.33,6.39,0
ETM025,0,0,0,16.46,1.89,81.65,0
ETM026,1.18,41.4,0,0,48.96,8.41,0.05
IKI002,3.4,39.93,0,0.8,34.82,21.05,0
IKI006,0,49.83,0,0.04,41.32,8.81,0
IKI009,0,33.87,0,0.6,45.45,20.07,0
IKI012,0,48.53,0,0,42.31,9.16,0
IKI016,0,45.51,0.42,0.54,39.44,14.09,0
IKI017,0,35.74,0,0,38.48,25.79,0
IKI019,0,32.45,7.26,0,45.41,13.8,1.09
IKI020,0,40.6,2.71,0.09,33.82,19.23,3.55
IKI024,1.29,35.56,1.05,0,40.85,20.73,0.52
IKI030,0,49.43,0,0.45,44.78,5.34,0
IKI032,0,46.24,0,0,11.91,41.86,0
IKI034,0,50.05,0,0,41.04,8.91,0
IKI036,0.96,44.1,0,0.93,37.23,16.78,0
IKI037,0,46.96,0,0.62,42.12,10.29,0
IKI038,0,35.59,0,0,48.95,15.46,0
KRD001,0,24.38,0,0.65,58.34,16.63,0
KRD002,0,32.6,0,0,52.13,13.15,2.11
KRD003,0,21.33,0,0.68,61.86,16.13,0
KRD004,0,23.23,0,0,67.65,9.12,0
KRD005,0,26.52,0,0.15,60.96,11.61,0.76
KRD006,0,20.46,0,0.54,62.46,16.54,0
MTT001_SR,1.05,46.27,0,1.01,41.06,10.61,0
POT002_PE,0,48.6,0,1.25,39.27,9.11,1.77
POT002_SR,2.88,47.69,0.06,0.68,38.8,9.61,0.29
TIT003,0,42.24,0,3.06,40.08,14.62,0
TIT012,0,42.57,3,1.33,46.39,6.01,0.71
TIT014,0,52.45,5.12,0,15.94,26.49,0
TIT015,0,0,0,0,25.63,64.35,10.02
TIT019,0,24.44,4.05,5.1,66.41,0,0
TIT021_PE,0.58,45.48,0,1.34,50.38,1.97,0.25
TIT021_SR,0,48.7,0,1.42,46.55,3.33,0
TIT025,0,44.96,0,0,27.35,27.69,0

Jovialis
12-06-20, 19:23
Here it is, I've created coordinates for this paper in combined format for Dodecad K7b. If anyone can provide us with the archeological context to the sample IDs, it would be very helpful:


ALA001,0,40.07,0.04,0.76,47.54,9.34,2.25
ALA002,0,38.58,0,0.65,48.9,9.61,2.26
ALA004,0,39.76,0.18,1.19,48.79,8.82,1.25
ALA008,1.65,40.16,0,1.35,49.94,6.9,0
ALA009,2.96,13.06,1.55,0,11.27,71.17,0
ALA011,1.09,39.31,0,0.95,48.25,9.6,0.79
ALA013,1.34,41.84,0,1.17,47.59,8.05,0
ALA014,0.07,43.1,1.06,0.81,50.06,4.89,0
ALA015,0,43.38,0,1.18,49.56,5.43,0.44
ALA016,0,41.75,0,1.2,48.98,8.07,0
ALA017,0,38.83,0,1.18,51.32,8.67,0
ALA019,17.75,62.79,1.62,1.32,9.37,7.15,0
ALA020,2.07,46.24,0,0.63,44.76,5.36,0.94
ALA023,0.52,40.4,0.33,0.61,49.2,8.87,0.08
ALA024,0,38.24,0,1.26,52.26,7.75,0.5
ALA025,0.06,44.68,0,0.45,47.14,7.34,0.33
ALA028,0,42.57,0,0.39,48.58,8.47,0
ALA029,0.92,41.37,0,0.87,49.33,7.5,0
ALA030,0,39.46,0.55,0.79,45.33,13.87,0
ALA035,0.22,42.91,0.61,1.22,50.69,3.73,0.63
ALA037,0,45.93,0.33,0.6,48.93,4.22,0
ALA038,0,41.91,0,1.65,54.13,2.32,0
ALA039,0.56,43.55,0.27,1.64,42.87,11.1,0
ALA084,0,54.02,0,1.74,37.76,6.47,0
ALX002_PE,0.02,44.25,0,0.86,42.27,7.2,5.4
ALX002_SR,1.36,51.29,0,1.14,37.57,8.64,0
ART001_PE,0,41.89,0,1.6,49.81,6.7,0
ART001_SR,0.16,41.48,0,1.4,50.89,6.07,0
ART004,0,51.76,0,0.77,44.08,2.65,0.74
ART005_PE,0,35.86,0,0.56,49.72,13.86,0
ART010_PE,0,46.12,0,1.11,43.5,9.11,0.16
ART011_PE,0,44.18,0,1.02,45.34,9.47,0
ART011_SR,0,44.12,0,1.1,43.87,10.44,0.47
ART012_PE,0,39.09,0,0.84,50.19,9.69,0.18
ART012_SR,0,38.53,0,1.03,51.36,9.08,0
ART014_PE,0,35.38,0,0.81,48.43,15.1,0.28
ART014_SR,0,36.21,0,1.02,48.07,14.52,0.18
ART015_PE,0,40.79,0,1.29,48.49,9.31,0.12
ART015_SR,0,42.05,0,1.08,47.68,9.19,0
ART017_PE,2.26,43.8,0,0.49,43.63,9.08,0.74
ART017_SR,0.19,44.91,0,1.54,43.53,9.38,0.46
ART018_PE,0,49.54,0.09,1.21,35.23,13.75,0.18
ART018_SR,0,49.22,0.05,1.39,35.06,13.91,0.38
ART019_PE,0.82,42.86,0,1.23,47.81,6.89,0.39
ART019_SR,0.84,41.71,0,2.18,48.08,7.19,0
ART020_PE,0,44.13,0,1.08,42.2,12.16,0.43
ART022_SR,0,42.65,0.15,1.19,46.1,9.91,0
ART024_PE,0,36.36,0,0.75,48.53,14.35,0
ART024_SR,0,35.39,0,0.73,49.86,13.79,0.23
ART026,0,43.23,0,0.81,43.92,11.07,0.96
ART027_PE,1.6,48.1,0,0.78,38.65,10.74,0.13
ART027_SR,0.3,46.23,0,0.73,40.28,12.22,0.23
ART038,0,40.23,0,0.35,48.67,10.76,0
ART039,0,50.71,0,1.18,37.62,10.49,0
ART042,0,36.79,0,1.17,49.6,12.05,0.39
CBT001,0,36.55,0,0.26,47.29,15.91,0
CBT002,0,39.8,0,0.4,47.16,12.64,0
CBT003,0,34.88,0,0,48.37,14.89,1.85
CBT004,0,39.7,0,0.44,47.74,11.88,0.24
CBT010,0,40.85,0,0.72,46.88,11.54,0.02
CBT013,0.01,40.44,0.29,0,46.13,12.86,0.27
CBT014,0,39.85,0,0.31,44.36,15.48,0
CBT015,1.27,41.38,0,0.66,43.27,12.5,0.91
CBT016,0,39.86,0,0.29,46.16,13.66,0.02
CBT018,0,33.79,0,0.65,48.46,17.08,0.02
ETM001,0.69,42.15,0,0.53,52.27,4.36,0
ETM003,53.46,21.12,0,4.48,20.94,0,0
ETM004,0,43.1,0,1.42,52.06,3.31,0.11
ETM006,0,39.31,0,0,51.09,9.61,0
ETM010,1.23,38.75,0,3.85,46.17,8.35,1.66
ETM012,2.48,36.7,0,0.89,51.23,7.61,1.08
ETM015,0,38.44,9.47,0,36.14,15.95,0
ETM016,0,40.95,0,1.81,48.25,8.77,0.23
ETM017,32.52,2.05,26.4,0,0,39.03,0
ETM018,0.24,39.3,0,1.7,50.7,6.58,1.48
ETM021,0.24,17.49,14.03,0,29.61,38.64,0
ETM023,2.6,42.75,0,0.93,47.33,6.39,0
ETM025,0,0,0,16.46,1.89,81.65,0
ETM026,1.18,41.4,0,0,48.96,8.41,0.05
IKI002,3.4,39.93,0,0.8,34.82,21.05,0
IKI006,0,49.83,0,0.04,41.32,8.81,0
IKI009,0,33.87,0,0.6,45.45,20.07,0
IKI012,0,48.53,0,0,42.31,9.16,0
IKI016,0,45.51,0.42,0.54,39.44,14.09,0
IKI017,0,35.74,0,0,38.48,25.79,0
IKI019,0,32.45,7.26,0,45.41,13.8,1.09
IKI020,0,40.6,2.71,0.09,33.82,19.23,3.55
IKI024,1.29,35.56,1.05,0,40.85,20.73,0.52
IKI030,0,49.43,0,0.45,44.78,5.34,0
IKI032,0,46.24,0,0,11.91,41.86,0
IKI034,0,50.05,0,0,41.04,8.91,0
IKI036,0.96,44.1,0,0.93,37.23,16.78,0
IKI037,0,46.96,0,0.62,42.12,10.29,0
IKI038,0,35.59,0,0,48.95,15.46,0
KRD001,0,24.38,0,0.65,58.34,16.63,0
KRD002,0,32.6,0,0,52.13,13.15,2.11
KRD003,0,21.33,0,0.68,61.86,16.13,0
KRD004,0,23.23,0,0,67.65,9.12,0
KRD005,0,26.52,0,0.15,60.96,11.61,0.76
KRD006,0,20.46,0,0.54,62.46,16.54,0
MTT001_SR,1.05,46.27,0,1.01,41.06,10.61,0
POT002_PE,0,48.6,0,1.25,39.27,9.11,1.77
POT002_SR,2.88,47.69,0.06,0.68,38.8,9.61,0.29
TIT003,0,42.24,0,3.06,40.08,14.62,0
TIT012,0,42.57,3,1.33,46.39,6.01,0.71
TIT014,0,52.45,5.12,0,15.94,26.49,0
TIT015,0,0,0,0,25.63,64.35,10.02
TIT019,0,24.44,4.05,5.1,66.41,0,0
TIT021_PE,0.58,45.48,0,1.34,50.38,1.97,0.25
TIT021_SR,0,48.7,0,1.42,46.55,3.33,0
TIT025,0,44.96,0,0,27.35,27.69,0


https://i.imgur.com/cWx416D.png

Anfänger
12-06-20, 20:50
Jovialis i´ve sent you a private message about the archeological context.

bigsnake49
12-06-20, 21:01
Definitely not from there:



Distance to:
Bigsnake49


18.16825528
ETM021


26.05528929
IKI032


27.91974391
IKI017


28.61514284
TIT025


29.83090512
ALA009


31.47419260
TIT015


32.42911963
IKI002


33.08045647
IKI024


34.04272610
IKI020


35.47691785
IKI009


36.47147653
TIT014


37.35419387
ETM015


38.50329077
IKI036


39.52497944
CBT018


40.43957715
TIT003


40.45515542
CBT014


40.49821848
CBT001


40.78044997
IKI019


41.45173820
ART014_PE


41.50249752
CBT003


41.50732225
IKI038


41.93649723
ART014_SR


42.05207010
IKI016


42.06470017
ALA030


42.35626164
ART024_PE

Palermo Trapani
12-06-20, 21:11
My K7B distances using Dodecad K7 coordinates from Jovialis post #126.




Distance to:
PalermoTrapani


16.16243175
IKI017


17.37167234
ETM021


20.40032108
IKI024


21.44124530
IKI009


22.71629151
IKI002


24.43740780
TIT025


24.70935248
IKI020


25.13453998
CBT018


26.70519425
CBT001


27.20905548
ETM015


27.28581683
IKI019


27.32754105
ART014_PE


27.33097510
CBT003


27.36174885
IKI038


27.72054653
CBT014


27.98802780
ART014_SR


28.36036847
IKI036


28.37774833
ART024_PE


29.02424676
ART024_SR


29.04462257
TIT003


29.07605716
ALA030


29.08636278
ART005_PE


29.70160602
CBT016


29.81020966
KRD002


29.90649261
KRD001


30.63555288
CBT013


30.70482373
CBT015


30.81234331
CBT002


30.86947521
ART042


31.39010513
IKI016


31.57081089
CBT004


32.12574357
CBT010


32.32670568
ART020_PE


32.95655018
ALA039


32.99431466
ART026


33.01875073
KRD003


33.05697808
ART038


33.27968750
IKI032


33.31638786
KRD006


33.33655651
ART027_SR


33.39177593
ALA002


33.45276072
ALA011


33.78539329
ETM010


33.80443018
ALA001


33.97981460
ART012_PE


33.98740502
ART011_SR


34.03504664
ART018_SR


34.14081575
ART022_SR


34.36698852
ART018_PE


34.43068835
ART015_PE


34.47621499
ALA004


34.51372770
ETM006


34.69629519
MTT001_SR


34.72393843
ART012_SR


34.86022949
ALA023


34.87391432
ART015_SR


34.87699528
ETM016


34.92470902
ART017_PE


35.12498541
ART011_PE


35.16343413
ALA017


35.22141678
ART017_SR


35.30004816
ETM012


35.37549858
KRD005


35.50332097
IKI037


35.58145725
ART027_PE


35.63679980
ETM026


35.69788509
ALA013


36.00277767
ALA028


36.05908901
ALA016


36.08015244
ALA024


36.13154162
ART010_PE


36.25826802
POT002_SR


36.47545750
ALA029


36.50332451
ART019_SR


36.67976963
ALA008


36.73956042
ALX002_PE


36.80287353
TIT014


36.85586113
ETM018


37.16531582
POT002_PE


37.19408958
ART019_PE


37.39314509
IKI012


37.46571633
ART039


37.49503834
ETM023


37.50372248
TIT012


37.53123632
ART001_PE


37.56161738
ALA025


38.24489639
ART001_SR


38.36603055
IKI006


38.40571181
IKI034


39.17480568
ALA015


39.22835836
ALX002_SR


39.39520910
TIT015


39.49096985
ALA020


39.66370129
ALA014


40.45575237
ETM001


40.73494323
ALA035


41.23213553
ALA037


41.29128116
IKI030


41.64783188
ETM004


41.86428191
KRD004

Jovialis
12-06-20, 21:17
Despite the proximity of ETM021, the genetic distance is quite far. Goes to show, PCAs are not the whole picture:

https://i.imgur.com/bBRuXWg.png

Jovialis
12-06-20, 21:18
Jovialis i´ve sent you a private message about the archeological context.

Thanks again, I will include it in the list.

kingjohn
12-06-20, 21:30
Distance to:
adam


10.66909087
IKI017


15.38105328
IKI024


16.82167055
IKI002


17.45838194
IKI009


18.70589212
TIT025


18.84151799
IKI020


19.30345306
ETM021


21.51664937
CBT018


21.73005752
ETM015


22.51840803
CBT001


22.54482646
IKI036


22.82544633
CBT014


23.32859833
IKI019


23.42175911
ART014_PE


23.50324658
IKI038


23.51307934
CBT003


23.58677172
TIT003


23.91803086
ART014_SR


24.31228496
ALA030


24.34042111
ART024_PE


25.01420197
CBT016


25.24336348
ART005_PE


25.25786214
ART024_SR


25.61255356
CBT015


25.72306747
IKI016



thanks jovialis :good_job:

IKI017 IKI017.A 4580 26 cal BCE 3484-3198 cal BCE 3494-3124 İkiztepe


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%B0kiztepe

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bafra

Palermo Trapani
12-06-20, 21:41
Despite the proximity of ETM021, the genetic distance is quite far. Goes to show, PCAs are not the whole picture:

https://i.imgur.com/bBRuXWg.png
Jovialis: Distance to ETM021 using coordinates from your post 126 in this thread pus the Coordinates for Ancient Greeks from Lazaridis et al 2017 that you put together in that thread. IK107 shows up after 13 Ancient Greeks, but not really close to them either.



Distance to:
ETM021


15.59168689
I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Pel oponnese


16.74604729
I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete


18.40732191
I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese


20.43131910
I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis


22.13658510
I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese


25.59691583
I0071_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete


25.63608980
I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave


25.80991089
I9130_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete


26.18116690
I9129_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete


26.56775301
I0074_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete


26.99253786
I2495_Bronze_Age_Harmanören-Göndürle_Höyük_Isparta_Province


27.39801270
I9128_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete


27.54192259
I9127_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete


27.81654903
IKI017

Duarte
12-06-20, 21:49
I am not from there too:



Distance to:
Duarte


16.26209089
TIT015


23.01146888
ALA009


25.28729918
ETM021


37.77764418
ETM025


42.89245971
IKI017


43.15750109
IKI032


46.53259073
TIT025


47.20714141
IKI024


48.18336435
IKI002


48.29118657
IKI009


49.87156304
IKI020


51.72895321
CBT018


52.24206351
ETM015


53.05128556
IKI019


53.43593735
ETM017


53.50233266
KRD001


53.56275478
CBT001


53.95019462
CBT003


53.97138131
ART014_PE


54.11494618
IKI038


54.31733057
IKI036


54.49626593
TIT014


54.62192051
CBT014


54.66116537
ART014_SR


55.08084694
ART024_PE

kingjohn
12-06-20, 21:51
compare to modern populations by distance in k7b


Distance to:
ETM021


16.23078248
C_Italian


16.50746195
Greek


17.31503104
Tuscan


17.54634720
TSI30


17.98994997
O_Italian


18.31961517
S_Italian_Sicilian


18.76499667
Sicilian


18.80811261
Ashkenazy_Jews


18.89057966
Ashkenazi


21.37686366
Bulgarian


21.82810803
Bulgarians


22.35581133
North_Italian


22.43016496
N_Italian


22.53992680
Romanians


25.45218458
Canarias


25.54580788
Morocco_Jews


25.59236410
Sephardic_Jews


27.12061393
Murcia


27.43767665
Baleares


27.84082793
Portuguese


27.88254472
Andalucia


28.10017260
Extremadura


28.26008316
Galicia


29.65811356
Castilla_Y_Leon


29.89922574
Spaniards





Distance to:
IKI017


8.29566754
Cypriots


9.96901700
Sephardic_Jews


12.77620053
Ashkenazy_Jews


12.94751327
Turkish


13.27231705
Ashkenazi


13.54777103
Morocco_Jews


13.80475643
Sicilian


14.30384913
Turks


14.44223321
S_Italian_Sicilian


15.38560366
Lebanese


17.79024452
Syrians


18.05381123
Druze


19.44577332
Greek


20.55780630
Jordanians


21.43128788
Palestinian


21.60514059
Uzbekistan_Jews


21.86851847
C_Italian


21.94279153
Armenian


22.85484850
Georgia_Jews


23.05468499
Assyrian


23.10437404
Armenians


23.42444236
Azerbaijan_Jews


23.69818769
Armenians_15


25.67000195
Kurds


25.78076415
Iraq_Jews

Jovialis
12-06-20, 23:37
Who is this guy? Keep in mind, this might just be how the calculator represents each sample, due to a lack of proper components. I wish there was one we could use that utilized aDNA components, instead of broad modern ones.



Distance to:
ETM025


19.72977952
Swedish


19.80550933
Norwegian


20.04934413
Finnish


20.09554179
FIN30


20.23482641
Lithuanian


20.45713079
Lithuanians


20.59024283
Belorussian


21.07128378
Orkney


21.37246359
Polish


21.41991130
Orcadian


21.67538235
British_Isles


21.68552974
Irish


21.73131841
Argyll


21.75463629
British


22.11054500
Russian


22.15596308
Russian_B


22.72769676
English


22.92868509
Kent


22.94992375
Mixed_Slav


22.97748028
CEU30


23.23992685
Dutch


23.35047323
Cornwall


23.37188054
Russian


23.83330653
Ukranians


23.83665664
German

kingjohn
13-06-20, 00:12
Yes ,
But i got to admitt pretty cool
That IKI017 is close to cyprus 😉
All thanks to your great work jovialis👍

Angela
13-06-20, 00:26
Mine:


Distance to:
angela


18.98781978
ETM021


24.43742621
TIT015


29.18889344
ALA009


32.32864210
IKI017


36.77783708
IKI032


36.88810106
IKI024


36.93307732
TIT025


37.96534341
IKI009


38.23801512
IKI002


40.11975822
IKI020


41.52277688
CBT018


42.61370202
ETM015


43.23028221
CBT001


43.32651959
IKI019


43.77825830
CBT003


43.78967001
IKI038


43.80520289
ART014_PE


44.14340721
KRD001


44.23758357
IKI036


44.26084726
CBT014


44.51021456
ART014_SR


44.87785088
ART024_PE


45.36748836
TIT003


45.43779924
ART024_SR


45.51639485
ART005_PE

bigsnake49
13-06-20, 01:57
Mine:


Distance to:
angela


18.98781978
ETM021


24.43742621
TIT015


29.18889344
ALA009


32.32864210
IKI017


36.77783708
IKI032


36.88810106
IKI024


36.93307732
TIT025


37.96534341
IKI009


38.23801512
IKI002


40.11975822
IKI020


41.52277688
CBT018


42.61370202
ETM015


43.23028221
CBT001


43.32651959
IKI019


43.77825830
CBT003


43.78967001
IKI038


43.80520289
ART014_PE


44.14340721
KRD001


44.23758357
IKI036


44.26084726
CBT014


44.51021456
ART014_SR


44.87785088
ART024_PE


45.36748836
TIT003


45.43779924
ART024_SR


45.51639485
ART005_PE




You're not from there either Angela. :)

Jovialis
13-06-20, 02:38
Definitely not from there:



Distance to:
Bigsnake49


18.16825528
ETM021


26.05528929
IKI032


27.91974391
IKI017


28.61514284
TIT025


29.83090512
ALA009


31.47419260
TIT015


32.42911963
IKI002


33.08045647
IKI024


34.04272610
IKI020


35.47691785
IKI009


36.47147653
TIT014


37.35419387
ETM015


38.50329077
IKI036


39.52497944
CBT018


40.43957715
TIT003


40.45515542
CBT014


40.49821848
CBT001


40.78044997
IKI019


41.45173820
ART014_PE


41.50249752
CBT003


41.50732225
IKI038


41.93649723
ART014_SR


42.05207010
IKI016


42.06470017
ALA030


42.35626164
ART024_PE




Actually, your ancestors partially come from there. Anatolian and Caucasian is without a doubt in Greeks, as well as other Europeans.



The origins of the Bronze Age Minoan and Mycenaean cultures have puzzled archaeologists for more than a century. We have assembled genome-wide data from 19 ancient individuals, including Minoans from Crete, Mycenaeans from mainland Greece, and their eastern neighbours from southwestern Anatolia. Here we show that Minoans and Mycenaeans were genetically similar, having at least three-quarters of their ancestry from the first Neolithic farmers of western Anatolia and the Aegean1 (https://www.nature.com/articles/nature23310#ref-CR1),2 (https://www.nature.com/articles/nature23310#ref-CR2) and most of the remainder from ancient populations related to those of the Caucasus3 (https://www.nature.com/articles/nature23310#ref-CR3)and Iran4 (https://www.nature.com/articles/nature23310#ref-CR4),5 (https://www.nature.com/articles/nature23310#ref-CR5). However, the Mycenaeans differed from Minoans in deriving additional ancestry from an ultimate source related to the hunter–gatherers of eastern Europe and Siberia6 (https://www.nature.com/articles/nature23310#ref-CR6),7 (https://www.nature.com/articles/nature23310#ref-CR7),8 (https://www.nature.com/articles/nature23310#ref-CR8), introduced via a proximal source related to the inhabitants of either the Eurasian steppe1 (https://www.nature.com/articles/nature23310#ref-CR1),6 (https://www.nature.com/articles/nature23310#ref-CR6),9 (https://www.nature.com/articles/nature23310#ref-CR9)or Armenia4 (https://www.nature.com/articles/nature23310#ref-CR4),9 (https://www.nature.com/articles/nature23310#ref-CR9). Modern Greeks resemble the Mycenaeans, but with some additional dilution of the Early Neolithic ancestry. Our results support the idea of continuity but not isolation in the history of populations of the Aegean, before and after the time of its earliest civilizations.


https://www.nature.com/articles/nature23310

All Europeans have Anatolian farmer from the Neolthic revolution, as well as Iranian-like ancestry, found in Steppe. There is also some additional Iran/Caucasian-like ancestry in Southern Europeans.

https://i.imgur.com/z0pgATg.png​

bigsnake49
13-06-20, 03:35
Actually, your ancestors partially come from there. Anatolian and Caucasian is without a doubt in Greeks, as well as other Europeans.



All Europeans have Anatolian farmer from the Neolthic revolution, as well as Iranian-like ancestry, found in Steppe. There is also some additional Iran/Caucasian-like ancestry in Southern Europeans.

https://i.imgur.com/z0pgATg.png​

Yes, much earlier.

Anfänger
13-06-20, 10:37
Here is mine:

12192

No wonder I am close to him because he is close to Armenians (Caucasian/Iran-like):

12193

What I find interesting while I am close to the Arslantepe and Leyla Tepe/Shulaveri samples you guys are relatively "close" to the samples from Ebla in Syria.

Btw, do we have members who are Greeks from Anatolia ? I guess they will be close to all Anatolian samples.

MOESAN
13-06-20, 17:57
Sorry, I'm with kingjohn on this one.

Obsession is the right word. I'm interested in the Indo-Europeans too but, I'm equally interested in the population genetics of other peoples and periods of history, and more interested in history itself. I'm also passionately interested in, and post about, music and art and theater and language etc. I'm not obsessed with the population genetics of any group, not even Italians, and I only get emotional when someone is t-rolling my people, and that includes both Italians and Americans.

What else to call it but obsession when grown men spend what sometimes seems like every waking moment trying to get every nuance of the origin, spread, genetics, yDna etc. etc. right? Why does it matter so much? Why is it such an emotional issue for some people whether they went to the Near East or not?

I beg to differ too that they're only interested in steppe in Anatolia because they're just interested in linguistics. You can't be that naive, Ygorcs. They want the Mitanni to have brought steppe to other areas of the Near East too, and they used to make it much more clear that the reason was to claim the accomplishments of all those people for their own ancestors. Some idiot once told me the Sumerians were probably Indo-Europeans, a well-respected idiot by others, btw. Why do you think tens of thousands of posts were written trying to prove that the ancient Greeks and Romans were Nordics? Maybe you weren't around then?

Scratch the surface of obsessions and you usually find something emotional or some agenda or something really sinister. I spent a chunk of my professional life looking at the dark underbelly in human beings and I'm telling you it's true. In the case of this issue, it's usually something racist imo, no matter whether it's a Pole or an Italian. They hide it on some sites, but on others, with others of their kind, they let it rip. What they write on the dark net must be completely and utterly insane. I'm glad I don't go there. It might disturb my sleep more than Covid.

I remember R1a/R1b wars over who was "more" or "less" Indo-European. I remember, before it became politically incorrect, the boasting about the "superior" Indo-Europeans, the Conan the Barbarians of pre-history who killed all the men in their path and stole all the women, the celebration of the "blonde-blue-eyed cowboys" of the steppes conquering dark peoples and on and on. As I said, maybe you weren't around, but I was. If it weren't so pathetic it would be laughable. Adolescent fantasies of weak men with a less than adequate manhood usually, like those of Hitler and the maimed and diminutive Goebels, fantasies designed to redress the feelings of ostracism, perhaps, of personal or ethnic humiliation? Who knows.

I've been reading the writings of people like this for ten years, and that's my conclusion. You're welcome to your own opinion.

As to the specifics of these papers, if I'm getting the facts straight, we have an R1b1a2 in southern Anatolia with no steppe, a Barcin Chalcolithic sample in whom your model shows 6% of something found on the steppe, and some Central Asian admixed person or people, who may or may not have been Mitanni, with barely any steppe. As to the latter, given they may have come from BMAC and the Reich Lab paper on India said there was no admixture there, why would they have it?

If that's it, I don't think it's enough to prove an incursion down through the Caucasus from the steppe. It may have happened, or it may not; I don't really care. If it did happen it left nothing behind, not even the language eventually. The "Huns" at least left that, although their other impact was as negligible as that of the steppe in the Near East. All the cultural accomplishments, the "civilization", which is the only important thing, went in the other direction. That's what it has to do with "civilization", that and the fact that for the worst of these kinds of people it's always been about cultural appropriation of the worst kind. Anyway, since you posted your opinion, I thought I'd post mine.

Live and let live, and we'll see what future ancient dna tells us.



Surely you are right here, concerning a lot of forumers. Personally I don't care people should be obsessed by a topic, what spites me is that it pushes often them to permanent biases, maybe proded (I opened my dictionary!) by some superiority/inferiority internal conflict. That said, an obsessed person with good knowledge and intellectual honesty can always bring some fuel to threads, when his obsession makes him digging deeply.

MOESAN
13-06-20, 18:29
You argument dont match because the Progress individuals have nothing of ancestry from this younger Anatolian individual neither. What we could argue with is that wherever it is found, V1636 shows CHG ancestry, wich do not give you it's origin, because of how old this ancestry is. It's not a coincidence if V1636 are both found in North Caucasus and South of it, it means there was a path, but it's more likely that V1636 for most of it's story was more shifted towards CHG, than EHG population while living in North Caucasus prior to the expansion of the Repin culture. It's not a coincidence neither that before the Bronze Age R1b wasn't found anywhere in the Middle-East, not even V88, because what we thought before for years, base on modern distribution was biased.

It's the exact same story with J1 in eastern europe being 100% EHG, but we constantly need to say it again.


Agree, Halfalp

MOESAN
13-06-20, 18:57
Except that the J1 came from the north, and Caucasus fails as the mixing source.

Amazing, also, the presence of J1 on the Pontic Caspian steppe, a type of J1 related to Satsurbia in the Caucasus. I thought it was settled that only women from the south were allowed onto the steppe?

The dominant impression is that females formed the bulk of the Caucasus input among Steppes herders. Y-R1 lineages were the rule, but here and there we see other Y-haplo's, even if rarer. So, some (supposed) foreign males, or at least not males from the "right" clan, could find some place for themselves? All that requires individual statute studies, concerning their true place in the society. Maybe it has been done, but I have some work to read IN DETAILS every new paper, they come quickly now. But in this case, if I understand well, this J1 is weird, so maybe his ancestors were long ago on Steppes?

Ygorcs
25-06-20, 16:25
No, it suggests a split from the core of Indo Europeans before the others. This could be explained in two ways.

A: Anatolian and "Steppe Indo European" splitted up somewhere unknown with Steppe Indo European moving into the Steppes. and Proto Anatolian into Anatolia.

B: P-Anatolia split up from the core of the Indo Europeans on the Steppes first and moved early into Anatolia.

Genetics rather supports A. And there is not really any archeological support for B either. Any archeological influence we know of during the Neolithic to early Bronze Age is from South to North.

How exactly does genetics rather supports A?

1) EHG:CHG cline with a rather Yamnaya-like ratio in Progress_Eneolithic and Vonyuchka_Eneolithic already existed as early as ~4,200 BC. EEF only appears in some eastern samples by the time of Yamnaya. (EDIT: In fact according to Anthony in his 2019 article, dozens of Eneolithic Steppe samples still to be published show a probable CHG spread northward into the steppe at least as early as 6200-4500 B.C. with Lower Volga fishing/hunter sites, and it was definitely found even as far up north as the Middle Volga BEFORE 4500 B.C.)

By that time, as other studies and this one which is the object of the present thread show, the Caucasus was already inhabited by heavily mixed Neolithic farmers, so the "pure CHG" without detectable ANF in Eneolithic samples from the Pontic-Caspian steppe do not seem to have come from Transcaucasia at all, at least not in the 4th or early 3rd millennium B.C., which is the timeline when PIE must be sought. CHG either existed in parts of the steppe (especially the southernmost area at the piedmonf of the North Caucasus) since even before the Neolithic (<8000 years ago), or it arrived in the steppe zone really early (before 4200 BC) with an almost entirely CHG population unchanged by ANF, Levant_N and Iran_N farmers' expansions, so probably in the northernmost parts of the Caucasus.

In either case, PIE would be originally a Pontic-Caspian or a North Caucasus language, and Anatolian IE would've had to move southward to be in Anatolia by the time of the EMBA (though my hunch is that the direction of this migration was not straight from the PIE homeland to Anatolia, but something more convoluted).

2) The ANF in the steppe samples up to Yamnaya appears to have come rather from the west (Europe) with EEF than from the south (South Caucasus) with Anatolian/Transcaucasian farmers.

3) The latest stage of PIE right before the first split can't be much earlier than ~6,000 years ago, so PIE must be found in some place at least by about 4500-4000 B.C., and it started to expand from that place to Europe, Central Asia and West Asia after that. If no significant migration from Transcaucasia or Central Asia to the Pontic-Caspian steppe cannot be established through genetics as dated precisely to ~3500-4500 B.C., then it is really unlikely that PIE was spoken elsewhere and only one of its branches ("Steppe PIE") went on to evolve independently in the Pontic-Caspian area and much later split further into other distinct branches.

4) Earliest R1b-M269, with TMRCA 6400 ybp, and R1a-M417, with TMRCA 5400 ybp, are both in Eastern Europe/North Eurasia. The sister clade R1b-M73 is also found in ancient North Eurasia (IIRC in Botai, right?). No R1b-M269 and R1a-M417 found in the Middle East before the LN/Chl so far AFAIK. R1b-V1636 with TMRCA 6,600 ybp is also found in the Eneolithic Steppe (Progress & Vonyuchka) ~6,200 ybp and later in BA Armenia and in LC Anatolia. It's indeed a bit intriguing that all these lineages have a TMRCA between 5400-6600 ybp, which is also exactly the timing when still undivided PIE is supposed to have been spoken.

Ygorcs
25-06-20, 17:28
In short: Not every Steppe related signal means Steppe admixture. It is much more likely shared ancestry because it does not exceed the "Steppe" signal we find in the surrounding cultures. That is why Lazaridis and co. wrote in their earlier study that the Hittite sampels can be modeled as Anatolian_Neolithic + something Calcolthic/Bronze Age Caucasus like.

Okay, that is plausible, but if that is so, nothing but shared ancestry widely distributed and diluted through a very broad range of populations, then why is it that Steppe_Eneolithic (Vonyuchka + Progress + Khvalynsk) admixture is picked up only by a few samples from specific areas (mainly Armenia) in the Chalcolithic and Bronze Age samples from West Asia that we have so far? That occurs even in individuals from the same site: most having no "steppe signal" at all, and only some others having a small proportion of that admixture. If it's a signal of widespread and heavily diluted shared ancestry, then it seems like some specific individuals had a distinct origin from others in West Asia and there was a strong cline from closer to EHG to more distant from it, because they have significantly more affinity with the mixture of North Caucasian CHG + EHG found in the Eneolithic Steppe. That is possible, of course, but the fact that this "steppe-like signal" is not found in all or even most of the samples indicate to me that there is something else going on and involving earlier population movements and admixing events.

Ygorcs
25-06-20, 17:31
Target

Distance

GEO_CHG
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
KAZ_Botai
Levant_Natufian
MAR_EN
RUS_Karelia_HG
RUS_Khvalynsk_En
RUS_Progress_En
RUS_Vonyuchka_En
TKM_Geoksyur_N
TUR_Barcin_N
WHG


ARM_Areni_C:I1407

0,0249516


5,4


11



1,8





0,4


22


14,8


44,6




ARM_Areni_C:I1631

0,0347996


14,2


1,8



7,8





14,6


12,2


11


38,4




ARM_Areni_C:I1632

0,0225098


8,6


6,8



4,2





19,2


0


16


45,2




ARM_Areni_C:I1634

0,0269163


6,6




3,2





17,4


6,2


23,8


42,8




ARM_LBA:RISE397

0,0333375


9








22,6


0


29,6


38,8




ARM_LBA:RISE407

0,0233147


14


9



2,4





0


42,2



32,4




ARM_LBA:RISE412

0,0417455


28


0,4



16





26,4


0


8,8


20,4




ARM_Lchashen_MBAA31

0,0212044


19


4


3


8,4





5,8


15,6


16,8


27,4




ARM_Lchashen_MBAA35

0,0313758


16,8



0,8


5,4





19,2


0


25,2


32,6




ARM_MBA:I1656

0,0198216


23,2


6



1,8





0


27,2


9,6


32,2




ARM_MBA:RISE423

0,0331355


14,4


10,6



6,8





0


35


1,4


31,8




AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LC:ALX002

0,0518553


4,6


37,6



4,6





0


2,6



50,6




AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN:MTT001

0,0306184


20,8


10,2



11,6





0


0


13


44,4




AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN:POT002

0,0362791


26,4


24,4



6,8





0


0



42,4




TUR_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA001

0,0349108


5,2


28,4



17,4





0


0



49




TUR_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA002

0,0323577


6,8


27,6



17,2





0


0



48,4




TUR_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA004

0,0401359


10,2


24,8



22,2





0


0



42,8




TUR_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA008

0,0472625


6,8


26,2



20,8





0


0



46,2




TUR_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA011

0,0383097


4,6


29,2



19





0


0



47,2




TUR_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA013

0,0338115


10


23,4



16,6





0


0



50




TUR_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA014

0,0382207


8,4


26,4



21,4





0


0



43,8




TUR_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA015

0,0433827


7,4


27



22,4





0


0



43,2




TUR_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA016

0,0414875


13,8


24,2



11,4





0


0



50,6




TUR_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA017

0,0451558


4,8


23,2



26,2





0


0



45,8




TUR_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA018

0,0316135


16


19,2



13,2





0


0


7,2


44,4




TUR_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA020

0,0355821


10,8


13,2



18,4





0


0


18,4


39,2




TUR_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA023

0,0493888


4,6


24,2



18,6





0


0



52,6




TUR_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA024

0,0498647


4


32,2



16





0


0



47,8




TUR_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA025

0,0389132


13,8


21,2



16,2





0


0


1,8


47




TUR_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA026

0,0404300


6,8


26,6



25,2





0


0



41,4




TUR_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA028

0,0387363


3


26,4



7,8





0


0



62,8




TUR_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA029

0,0345955


14,4


19,8



19,4





0


0



46,4




TUR_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA030

0,0288160


9,8


14,2



8,2





0


0


7,8


60




TUR_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA034

0,0362284


5,4


30



18





0


0



46,6




TUR_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA035

0,0438243


1,2


32



25





0


0



41,8




TUR_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA037

0,0490441


12,4


21,2



18,8





0


0



47,6




TUR_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA038

0,0676382


10,8


25,6



15,6





0


0



48




TUR_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA039

0,0303924


7,8


6,8



19,6





0


0


22,2


43,6




TUR_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA084

0,0393594


6


38,6



15,4





0


0



40




TUR_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA095

0,0420903


8,4


17,6



19,8





0


0


9,2


45




TUR_Alalakh_MLBA_o:ALA019

0,0240158


2,8


26,8


11,8






5,6


0


42,4


10,6

Ygorcs
25-06-20, 17:34
Target


Distance
GEO_CHG

IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

KAZ_Botai

Levant_Natufian

MAR_EN

RUS_Karelia_HG

RUS_Khvalynsk_En

RUS_Progress_En

RUS_Vonyuchka_En

TKM_Geoksyur_N

TUR_Barcin_N

WHG



TUR_Arslantepe_EBA:ART001


0,0431803

10,6

22,6


18




0

0


48,8



TUR_Arslantepe_EBA:ART009


0,0376607

22,8

16,2


11




0

0


50



TUR_Arslantepe_EBA:ART010


0,0411286

22,4

18,4


8,4




0

0


50,8



TUR_Arslantepe_EBA:ART011


0,0345940

19,6

13,8


7,6




0

0

6,2

52,8



TUR_Arslantepe_LC:ART004


0,0533887

10,8

30


11,2




0

0


48



TUR_Arslantepe_LC:ART005


0,0339886

0,6

24,2


6,2




0

0


69



TUR_Arslantepe_LC:ART012


0,0388561

14,2

16,8


14,2




0

0


54,8



TUR_Arslantepe_LC:ART014


0,0312132

17,4

13,4


15,2




0

0


54



TUR_Arslantepe_LC:ART015


0,0386522

10,8

20


21,4




0

0


47,8



TUR_Arslantepe_LC:ART017


0,0354175

13,4

23,2


4,2




0

0


59,2



TUR_Arslantepe_LC:ART018


0,0321213

29,8

14,6


6,4




0

0

6

43,2



TUR_Arslantepe_LC:ART019


0,0392705

12,4

23,6


19,8




0

0


44,2



TUR_Arslantepe_LC:ART020


0,0268593

21,2

15,8


8,6




0

0


54,4



TUR_Arslantepe_LC:ART022


0,0405536

17

18,4


7,4




0

0


57,2



TUR_Arslantepe_LC:ART023


0,0391195

24,4

14


9,8




0

0


51,8



TUR_Arslantepe_LC:ART024


0,0317834

16,8

12,2


16




0

0


55



TUR_Arslantepe_LC:ART026


0,0363879

19,4

19


6




0

0


55,6



TUR_Arslantepe_LC:ART027


0,0268124

21,8

19,8


0,4




0

0

3,6

54,4



TUR_Arslantepe_LC:ART032


0,0299815

17,4

16,8


10,6




0

0

4,6

50,6



TUR_Arslantepe_LC:ART038


0,0432255

6

24,6


5,2




0

0


64,2



TUR_Arslantepe_LC:ART039


0,0409516

40

3,4


1,8




0

0


54,8



TUR_Arslantepe_LC:ART042


0,0321150

4

22,4


19,4




0

0


54,2



TUR_Barcin_C:I1584


0,0240846

14



2




0,4

5,2

19,2

59,2



TUR_Buyukkaya_EC:CBT018


0,0199781

15,8

9,4


3,6




0

0


71,2



TUR_Camlibel_Tarlasi_LC:CBT001


0,0341580

11,4

18,2


3




0

0


67,4



TUR_Camlibel_Tarlasi_LC:CBT002


0,0348754

14,6

21


8,2




0

0


56,2



TUR_Camlibel_Tarlasi_LC:CBT003


0,0389602

15,4

15


1




0

0


68,6



TUR_Camlibel_Tarlasi_LC:CBT004


0,0373601

13,6

16,6


6,4




0

0


63,4



TUR_Camlibel_Tarlasi_LC:CBT005


0,0397395

16,6

12,2


7,2




0

0


64



TUR_Camlibel_Tarlasi_LC:CBT010


0,0440960

17,8

10


8,4




0

0


63,8



TUR_Camlibel_Tarlasi_LC:CBT011


0,0353161

12,8

20,4


5,2




0

0


61,6



TUR_Camlibel_Tarlasi_LC:CBT013


0,0342570

14

18


3,8




0

0


64,2



TUR_Camlibel_Tarlasi_LC:CBT014


0,0264495

18,6

15,6


6,6




0

0


59,2



TUR_Camlibel_Tarlasi_LC:CBT015


0,0386826

14,6

20,2


1,8




0

0

1,4

62



TUR_Camlibel_Tarlasi_LC:CBT016


0,0396373

16,6

14,8


4,6




0

0


64



TUR_Camlibel_Tarlasi_LC:CBT017


0,0284358

18

14,2


0,6




0

0


67,2



TUR_Ikiztepe_LC:IKI002


0,0545419

20,4

10






0

0

6

63,6



TUR_Ikiztepe_LC:IKI009


0,0480633

23,8

13,6


8,6




0

0


54



TUR_Ikiztepe_LC:IKI012


0,0497833

14,6

24,2


2,2




0

0


59



TUR_Ikiztepe_LC:IKI016


0,0387767

23,6

18,8






0

0


57,6



TUR_Ikiztepe_LC:IKI017


0,0464296

28,4

6,8






0

3,6


61,2



TUR_Ikiztepe_LC:IKI024


0,0392625

9,4

21






0

0


69,6



TUR_Ikiztepe_LC:IKI034


0,0443123

28

11,4


8,6




0

0


52



TUR_Ikiztepe_LC:IKI036


0,0451795

18,4

21


2,4




0

0


58,2



TUR_Ikiztepe_LC:IKI037


0,0560888

20,6

17,4


7,6




0

0


54,4



TUR_Isparta_EBA:I2495


0,0218276

13,8

13,2


0,2




0

0


72,8



TUR_Isparta_EBA:I2499


0,0317810

12,2

19,8


1,2




0,4

0


66,4



TUR_Isparta_EBA:I2683


0,0269601

12,6

18,8


2,4




0

0


66,2



TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA:MA2200


0,0213453

18

14


8,4




0

0

2,4

57,2



TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA:MA2203


0,0216241




4,2




2,6

0

28,4

64,8



TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA:MA2205


0,0345480

15,8

19


4,2




0

0


61



TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA:MA2206


0,0315966

10,8

9,6


4,4




0

0

13,8

61,4



TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_low_res:MA2208


0,0454031

12,8

16,6


8,4




0

5,4


56,8



TUR_Ovaoren_EBA:MA2210


0,0263325

11

15,8


5,8




0

0

11

56,4



TUR_Ovaoren_EBA:MA2212


0,0309217

12,2

15,2


9,8




0

0

4

58,8



TUR_Ovaoren_EBA:MA2213


0,0251214

17,8

6


5,4




0

0

8,4

62,4



TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC:KRD001


0,0369338

2

5,4


17




0

0


75,6



TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC:KRD003


0,0396137


7,2


17,6




0

0


75,2



TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC:KRD004


0,0769840

7

1,2


18,2




0

0


73,6



TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC:KRD006


0,0281111

8,8



22,4




0

0


68,8



TUR_Tell_Kurdu_MC:KRD002


0,0411310

2,6

15,6


14




0

0


67,8



TUR_Titris_Hoyuk_EBA:TIT021


0,0512983

12,8

26,8


7,6




0

0


52,8

ratchet_fan
25-06-20, 18:51
^^What does the above say about how much East Eurasian was in Central Asia/Tarim Basin when the ancestors of Mittanis/Tocharians moved in?

ratchet_fan
26-06-20, 01:30
from Carlos Quiles's site

but it is my fault. It seems that the western source is more similar to Goyet ( which is Aurignacian)
here is the quote ( EWE stands for early west eurasian)

Ancient North Eurasians (ANE): contributed to by ANS, an EWE source close to the Goyet cluster (ca. 75%) and an EEA population (ca. 25%).

Is ANE defined by Yana or Malta? If its the latter then I think ANE is only 9% EEA related not 25%.

Ygorcs
26-06-20, 18:23
^^What does the above say about how much East Eurasian was in Central Asia/Tarim Basin when the ancestors of Mittanis/Tocharians moved in?

AFAIK North-Central Asia was probably inhabited mainly by Botai-like and Dali_EBA-like populations, that is, mostly a mix of EHG + ANE + East Eurasian in minor but significant proportions (~15-20% IIRC).

South-Central Asia had some of that northern hunter-gatherer ancestry in scattered places and individuals, but the vast majority of the region's genetic makeup was Eastern Iran_N.

G2ian
26-06-20, 21:09
Eh, So I read almost the entire thread and not a word about Proto-Kartvelian peoples... Has there been any meaningful research done about them? Every time I read a new research about Caucasus it seems to be centered around IE/Semitic/Armenian/steppe ancestry. It's as if researchers are avoiding Proto-Kartvelian. Genetically speaking Modern Kartvelians seem to be related to Ancient Caucasians and Anatolians but when discussing ancient groups none of them are associated with Kartvelian.

ratchet_fan
26-06-20, 21:17
AFAIK North-Central Asia was probably inhabited mainly by Botai-like and Dali_EBA-like populations, that is, mostly a mix of EHG + ANE + East Eurasian in minor but significant proportions (~15-20% IIRC).

South-Central Asia had some of that northern hunter-gatherer ancestry in scattered places and individuals, but the vast majority of the region's genetic makeup was Eastern Iran_N.

That's what I think too. Does North Central Asia extend to the Tarim in your opinion?

So NCA was like 75-80% West Eurasian and South Central Asia was mostly Iran_N but with some Anatolian ancestry as well no?

Jovialis
03-07-20, 06:55
https://www.cell.com/cell/pdf/S0092-8674(20)30509-2.pdf?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier .com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0092867420305092%3Fshowal l%3Dtrue

You can see the whole paper now.

bicicleur
03-07-20, 07:53
is there also a link to the supplements?

Jovialis
04-07-20, 07:03
is there also a link to the supplements?

I clicked on the link for it, but it just sent me to a page of references.

In my spare time, I will try to decipher what the archeological designations are for the samples I have coordinates for.

kingjohn
12-07-20, 17:33
It was always there another prespective🤔
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/257731253_Organized_violence_in_Anatolia_A_retrosp ective_research_on_the_injuries_from_the_Neolithic _to_Early_Bronze_Age