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Salento
12-06-20, 16:56
Salento: Ok, thanks, never thought of using iphone from screen. As for the 900 Black See Sample, for some reason just I just seemed to notice it this time. Looks like the sample is plotting in Genoa, Liguria area on your PCA Plot.

Same place as Christopher Columbus ... ,

( ... we will privately refinance the statues that they're destroying, we will make them BIGGER!)

Palermo Trapani
12-06-20, 17:20
Same place as Christopher Columbus ... ,

( ... we will privately refinance the statues that they're destroying, we will make them BIGGER!)

Yes some crazy times.

bigsnake49
12-06-20, 20:05
Same place as Christopher Columbus ... ,

( ... we will privately refinance the statues that they're destroying, we will make them BIGGER!)

It is well established that a band of Vikings under Leif Eriksson were the first Europeans to have discovered America around 1000AD. Maybe replace them with Leif Erisksson statues? Or statues of St Brendan the Irish monk that supposedly did that around 570AD?

Duarte
12-06-20, 20:55
The first peoples to explore and colonize America were Eurasians that lived in a glacial refuge in Beringia 20,000 ybp:smile::good_job:

bigsnake49
12-06-20, 21:06
The first peoples to explore and colonize America were Eurasians that lived in a glacial refuge in Beringia 20,000 ybp:smile::good_job: Very true. You don't see any statues of them around, do you?:grin: But we do celebrate the guy that immediately upon arriving plundered the gold from the natives and enslaved 6 of them for himself.

Salento
12-06-20, 21:23
we’re going off topic, and you’re all missing the point,

... it’s about what some Historical Characters mean to the protestors, they couldn’t care less whoever came first to America, or whatever Columbus means to Italian Americans ... I’ll leave it at that ...

Palermo Trapani
12-06-20, 21:29
we’re going off topic, and you’re all missing the point,

... it’s about what some Historical Characters mean to the protestors, they couldn’t care less whoever came first to America, or whatever Columbus means to Italian Americans ... I’ll leave it at that ...

You are dead on, spot on, 100% dead on, 100% spot on / correct. Columbus will not be the last Statue that is demanded to come down, it will get to George Washington and Thomas Jefferson soon enough. Maybe the Columbus statue should come down, not American, but it aint gonna end with his statue. But this is a topic more for the political thread so I too will leave it at that.

Jovialis
12-06-20, 23:55
I have moved these posts to a dedicated thread.

Duarte
13-06-20, 00:14
I don't know any statue built to honor the indigenous people in the region of Brazil where I live (southeast). But there are many statues around here like this that pay homage to São Paulo explorers from the 16th and 17th centuries and who are currently under threat of being put down by demonstrators. The honoree below is Borba Gato, founder of the City of Sabará, who has nearly four hundred years , whose ancient district of Curral Del Rey would later become my hometown, Belo Horizonte. Considering that I have not yet seen anyone here in eupédia able to have a higher rate of homozygosity than mine, I believe that this man is probably a relative. I believe that the statues need not be put down. It is as ominous an attitude as burning books, as authoritarian regimes usually do. It is enough that the bronze plaques that describe the heroic deeds of the honorees also describe the bad side of the story that is usually omitted. The story needs to be corrected and not erased.

https://i.imgur.com/XOoL9At.jpg

Jovialis
13-06-20, 00:26
I wonder how much of this unrest is actually being sowed by foreign-rivals that want to promote sedition:



Twitter deletes 170,000 accounts linked to China influence campaign


Twitter has removed more than 170,000 accounts the social media site says are state-linked influence campaigns from China focusing on Hong Kong protests, Covid-19 and the US protests in relation to George Floyd.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/twitter-deletes-170000-accounts-linked-to-china-influence-campaign/ar-BB15mYka

Jovialis
13-06-20, 03:08
It is well established that a band of Vikings under Leif Eriksson were the first Europeans to have discovered America around 1000AD. Maybe replace them with Leif Erisksson statues? Or statues of St Brendan the Irish monk that supposedly did that around 570AD?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the Vikings who landed in North America exterminated by the Native Americans, because they were hostile towards one another?

Sorry Bigsnake, but that isn't going to fly either, extremists hate Leif Eriksson too:

https://www.duluthnewstribune.com/news/4329791-duluths-leif-erikson-statue-vandalized

https://www.fox21online.com/2017/09/18/leif-erikson-monument-vandalized/

bicicleur
13-06-20, 16:06
they want to rewrite the history, which is biassed, indeed
that is ok by me, as long it is not biassed in the other way
it is true that the colonisers did bring a lot of misery
but they shouldn't forget to tell about the horror local tribes inflicted to each other, about human sacrifices for the elites and about the whole situation before the colonisers came
I'm sure it won't be a nice story, allthough there is a lot we will never know
if the colonisers hadn't come, the situation would be a lot worse today
and if there was not the same corruption and exploitation by local rulers after decolonisation, living standarts in the decolonised countries would be a lot higher than they are today

you can't judge history by todays standards
the only way to understand history is to understand first what were the standards and morals of that time

Jovialis
13-06-20, 16:11
^Hernando Cortez defeated the Aztecs with the help of various Central American tribes, that the Aztecs were oppressing.

Angela
14-06-20, 00:15
The point is that the Vikings and whoever else might have landed here before Columbus had no effect on subsequent history. That voyage for the Spanish monarchs changed the history of the world. Period.

You can't, as someone else said, change history, or the record of human history. It's a terrible, horrible, very bad idea. If you want to explain the bad consequences as well as the good ones, fine, but tearing down statues of the past is like banning books.

Also, tell the WHOLE story: Rousseau's "Noble Savage" is a fantasy. The Aztecs were as brutal, bloody and oppressive as any European power, and more so than many. The Incas were no picnic either, or the Mayans.

Thomas Jefferson was a slave owner who impregnated his mulatto or quadroon slave, Sally Hemings, numerous times, freed her only upon his death, leaving her cousins and aunts and uncles slaves, and only freed two of his children by her on his death as well. The others all ran away. I've never thought of him the same way since I learned those things. Does that change all his wonderful accomplishments? No, it doesn't.

Robert E. Lee, by the way, did not believe in slavery and had already or planned to free all his slaves. He was loyal to his state. As I always say, the real world was and is a lot more complicated than ideologues paint it, but you only know that if you've learned the actual facts.

I'm tired of people re-writing history. We should be in the business of seeking out the truth.

bigsnake49
14-06-20, 02:03
Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the Vikings who landed in North America exterminated by the Native Americans, because they were hostile towards one another?

Sorry Bigsnake, but that isn't going to fly either, extremists hate Leif Eriksson too:

https://www.duluthnewstribune.com/news/4329791-duluths-leif-erikson-statue-vandalized

https://www.fox21online.com/2017/09/18/leif-erikson-monument-vandalized/

Probably why they left with their tail between their legs. Not worth it I guess.

bigsnake49
14-06-20, 02:24
I just want you to know that all these empires built after the discovery of America and the lands of the Pacific were done for one thing and one thing only, exploitation. Exploitation of resources or exploitation of people (enslavement). So excuse me if I do think that slaughtering the natives, enslaving them and stealing their land and resources should not be a cause for celebrating somebody. Trade with them, sure.

Salento
14-06-20, 03:55
I just want you to know that all these empires built after the discovery of America and the lands of the Pacific were done for one thing and one thing only, exploitation. Exploitation of resources or exploitation of people (enslavement). So excuse me if I do think that slaughtering the natives, enslaving them and stealing their land and resources should not be a cause for celebrating somebody. Trade with them, sure.

The history of all the Countries of the World has a grey color.

Whomever has the Power has always asserted onto others.

We celebrate the positive aspects of our chosen Historical Figures or events, knowing that most of them were not Saints.

If they don’t like what I celebrate, ... then they shouldn’t celebrate, or they could celebrate something else, but they should leave me and my Icons alone.

Carlos
14-06-20, 04:24
^Hernando Cortez defeated the Aztecs with the help of various Central American tribes, that the Aztecs were oppressing.

Hernán Cortés

I have that last name too, don't change it. lol

Jovialis
14-06-20, 04:26
I just want you to know that all these empires built after the discovery of America and the lands of the Pacific were done for one thing and one thing only, exploitation. Exploitation of resources or exploitation of people (enslavement). So excuse me if I do think that slaughtering the natives, enslaving them and stealing their land and resources should not be a cause for celebrating somebody. Trade with them, sure.

Like Salento said, anyone that has power, will use force to retain it. It has been this way, across all cultures, and races. The Left want to frame it so only white Americans are the only ones that have committed these atrocities.

But clearly across the world, who ever has power also becomes a target from the people that they rule over, example:

Three Chinese nationals were murdered and burned in Zambia, in a week when racial tensions were running high

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/05/china/china-zambia-murder-intl-hnk/index.html

The Chinese have never enslaved Africans, but that doesn't stop racially motivated murders against them.

Angela
14-06-20, 13:01
This is what I find so objectionable about these kinds of discussions, and just supports my long held opinion that it is almost impossible to have rational discussions about certain issues.

To refuse to become an iconoclast destroying the symbols of the past, or a revisionist re-writing it, or to engage in endless self-flagellation for the sins of white people/Europeans etc., means you're going to wind up being accused of supporting what happened to the native peoples of the Americas.

It's both illogical and unfair.

I would hope it's clear from my years posting here that I think what happened to indigenous peoples all over the world, not just in the Americas, but in Greenland, and Russia, and southeast Asia, and Africa, and on and on is horrible and inexcusable. I just think it needs to be seen in all its complexity, and in its universality, as has been said.

Even removing any intent to actually conquer them, what happened to the indigenous peoples of the Americas was in some ways inevitable. The first English colonists in Virginia and Massachusetts had no initial intent to "conquer" the Indians, or even worse, exterminate the Indians and annex all their lands. They had no vision of the hundreds of thousands of colonists who would soon start flooding the "New World". They perhaps naively hoped to find some sort of way of living with the natives. That didn't stop the natives from dropping like flies of all the illnesses to which Europeans had become immune. Nor did it change human nature; landless people from Europe saw what was to them unused, valuable farmland, and moved on to it, and Indians saw their hunting lands disappearing. Conflict was inevitable. Things were different in "Latin America", because the Indian societies were more advanced, and far richer.

I don't see how this wasn't, in some ways, just like what happened to the Middle Neolithic people of Europe when contact first occurred with the people from the steppe. Even if the goal wasn't conquest, disease would have done the job, and the fact that the climate had changed and their "agricultural package" was no longer viable. It's the history of the world terrible as it is.

At any rate, as I said, by no means do I condone what was happened to them; in fact, it breaks my heart. There are few films more profoundly moving than "Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee", or "The Mission". Yet, "Black Robe" is the reality of Amerindian societies at the time of contact. Some films are actually well researched and accurate, though certainly not all.

I also honestly don't see how indigenous societies can continue to exist once they come into contact with people from modern cultures. Look at the San, or the people in the islands of south and southeastern Asia, or the Indians of the Amazon. Trading with them is impossible; we will infect them. The only way to save the Indians of the Amazon is to make whole areas of it in effect reservations. First and foremost it's to protect them, to keep them from becoming infected. It's also to protect their lands from the land hungry poor of Brazil and surrounding countries who want to feed their children, whether by subsistence farming or working for logging companies etc. Those are the people who are not "seen" in these discussions about how corporations create all the evil in the world.

If someone were to ask me if I see a solution for all of this, the answer would be no; it's tragic and depressing, but there it is.

As for this growing division in the U.S. I would say this: I'm a liberal too, in the sense that I'm a classical liberal; I'm a firm believer in the republican form of democracy which is the bedrock of this country. I am for equal rights before the law for all people, regardless of religion, or race, or ethnicity. What I am not for is a guarantee of equal outcomes. What I am also not for is the Maoist inspired, profoundly anti-Democratic, anti-due process, violence based, "woke", "successor" revolutionary ethos which started sweeping college campuses years ago and has now burst out, as I always predicted it would if funding for universities which tolerated it wasn't pulled and if private donors didn't close their wallets.

For Americans who think they can co-exist with it, I think they're being incredibly naive. Eventually they'll have to be re-educated too. I recommend they all pick up a good history of the Chinese Cultural Revolution or the Leninist period in Russia and the show trials of the 30s which followed it. History has a nasty habit of repeating itself.

Why am I so sure it's coming? I was watching Anderson Cooper the other night. I have always thought he's a well meaning, reasonably balanced newscaster. He was interviewing a black activist of the disband the police type when, to me, an extraordinary thing happened. He asked her whether instead of disbanding the police, policing the police, more prosecutions of bad behavior wouldn't suffice. Without batting an eye she said that see, there's a problem because the police have all these due process rights! He said not a word in response. Apparently, investigations of the accused, trials, due process rights for defendants, things for which the left has vociferously fought for decades, are now to be tossed out, and mob rule and vigilante justice is to be instituted. When that can be said, unchallenged, on an American news program, it's time to prepare for the worst.

Jovialis
14-06-20, 14:34
I think the genocide of the Indians was a terrible thing, just like any other genocide, enslavement, or destruction of human life. However, I don't think people should dismantle statues or images of other conquers throughout the world. Like Genghis Khan, Julius Caesar, Alexander the Great, Saladin, etc.

bigsnake49
14-06-20, 14:57
If you want to acknowledge a European for the feat of discovering the continental US, acknowledge Ponce de Leon. He landed in Florida in 1513 and explored up and down Florida.

italouruguayan
14-06-20, 23:06
Throughout history, all civilizations have committed crimes. We must learn from that so that the crimes do not happen again in the future ... although I am skeptical, since long after Auschwitz there were genocides like the one in Rwanda, and in the former Yugoslavia.
We should try to solve injustices ... but without perpetuating hatred. As a small example of those hatreds from the past, I tell you something that happened to me.
A while ago I entered a community of descendants of Uruguayan indigenous people on Facebook. In my opening message, I wrote that I was very proud to have confirmed my suspicions of having native ancestors through a DNA test, because that gave me strong roots in this continent, but I also wrote that I was proud of my European ancestors....

The group administrator replied: What ???? ... Are you proud of those who massacred our people and stole their land?
And I replied: Hey, wait a minute! I am not talking about the conquerors, of which I do not even know if I am a descendant and probably never will!
I refer to the millions of immigrants who came to work, like my Italian grandfather, who in his life knew nothing but hard work and left his bones on this land!
The answer was silence...

Angela
14-06-20, 23:24
Throughout history, all civilizations have committed crimes. We must learn from that so that the crimes do not happen again in the future ... although I am skeptical, since long after Auschwitz there were genocides like the one in Rwanda, and in the former Yugoslavia.
We should try to solve injustices ... but without perpetuating hatred. As a small example of those hatreds from the past, I tell you something that happened to me.
A while ago I entered a community of descendants of Uruguayan indigenous people on Facebook. In my opening message, I wrote that I was very proud to have confirmed my suspicions of having native ancestors through a DNA test, because that gave me strong roots in this continent, but I also wrote that I was proud of my European ancestors....
The group administrator replied: What ???? ... Are you proud of those who massacred our people and stole their land?
And I replied: Hey, wait a minute! I am not talking about the conquerors, of which I do not even know if I am a descendant and probably never will!
I refer to the millions of immigrants who came to work, like my Italian grandfather, who in his life knew nothing but hard work and left his bones on this land!
The answer was silence...

Thank you so much for your post, Italo. I am both moved and disheartened by it.

No good can come from this kind of attitude, but this is the reality we face.

italouruguayan
14-06-20, 23:39
@Angela


Let's hope that these disturbances, as well as the Covid-19, are in the future only bad memories of a 2020 whose script seems written by Stephen King ...

Duarte
14-06-20, 23:57
I do not despise my European ancestors. On the contrary, I admire them very much. The Colony Era were rough times, and there was a struggle for survival on both sides. This struggle was based on survival instinct and not racism. The conquerors saw the Indigenous as savage pagans and murderers and the Indigenous saw Europeans as destructive demons. From the point of view of the conqueror, no new immigrant would have arrived to Americas if the Portuguese and, shortly thereafter, the Spanish had not opened the way for the Americas. The Portuguese were the ones who developed the Caravels and the most sophisticated navigation instruments that allowed Europeans to conquer the world with their military and merchant fleets. This bias that the new immigrants are better than the old ones caused serious problems for Italian and German immigrants in the south and southeast of Brazil, mainly in WW2, to the point that the Talian was abandoned by many native speakers out of fear.

italouruguayan
15-06-20, 00:53
I do not despise my European ancestors. On the contrary, I admire them very much. The Colony Era were rough times, and there was a struggle for survival on both sides. This struggle was based on survival instinct and not racism. The conquerors saw the Indigenous as savage pagans and murderers and the Indigenous saw Europeans as destructive demons. From the point of view of the conqueror, no new immigrant would have arrived to Americas if the Portuguese and, shortly thereafter, the Spanish had not opened the way for the Americas. The Portuguese were the ones who developed the Caravels and the most sophisticated navigation instruments that allowed Europeans to conquer the world with their military and merchant fleets. This bias that the new immigrants are better than the old ones caused serious problems for Italian and German immigrants in the south and southeast of Brazil, mainly in WW2, to the point that the Talian was abandoned by many native speakers out of fear.


I sometimes have discussions with people who say: look at the bestialities that the Spanish did on this continent! (And the funny thing is that many times people with a Spanish surname and even a Spanish appearance say it ...).
And I answer them: .. if those things had never happened ... you and I would not exist ...

Jovialis
15-06-20, 01:52
Throughout history, all civilizations have committed crimes. We must learn from that so that the crimes do not happen again in the future ... although I am skeptical, since long after Auschwitz there were genocides like the one in Rwanda, and in the former Yugoslavia.
We should try to solve injustices ... but without perpetuating hatred. As a small example of those hatreds from the past, I tell you something that happened to me.
A while ago I entered a community of descendants of Uruguayan indigenous people on Facebook. In my opening message, I wrote that I was very proud to have confirmed my suspicions of having native ancestors through a DNA test, because that gave me strong roots in this continent, but I also wrote that I was proud of my European ancestors....

The group administrator replied: What ???? ... Are you proud of those who massacred our people and stole their land?
And I replied: Hey, wait a minute! I am not talking about the conquerors, of which I do not even know if I am a descendant and probably never will!
I refer to the millions of immigrants who came to work, like my Italian grandfather, who in his life knew nothing but hard work and left his bones on this land!
The answer was silence...

It is crazy, that people should be made to feel guilty for who they are. You should be proud of all your roots, and I'm happy to call you a fellow Italian.

bigsnake49
15-06-20, 02:04
Don't brush it off as eh, they did some good. I do not ignore the fact that some of the advances that are credited to the Greeks would not have been possible were it not for slaves freeing elites from manual labor so they can think their high thoughts. Slavery is abhorrent under any circumstances and should never be excused. So is thievery and plunder but at least you don't lose your freedom and you're not worked to death.

italouruguayan
15-06-20, 02:36
It is crazy, that people should be made to feel guilty for who they are. You should be proud of all your roots, and I'm happy to call you a fellow Italian.


Thank you Jovialis!

Duarte
15-06-20, 17:46
These are some of the historical characters that I really admire. They are a far cry from what can be called 'politically correct people'. But their achievements are absolutely admirable. I give them all my honors. Doesn’t matter for me their haters. I love them.

Dom Manuel I - Portuguese monarch who financed the great navigations.

https://i.imgur.com/ayjraSz.jpg

Vasco da Gama - Portuguese navigator - First navigator to bypass the Cape of Good Hope and reach the Indies

https://i.imgur.com/TNaQF0p.jpg

Fernando and Isabel, the first kings of Spain. They financed the exploitation of Christopher Columbus.

https://i.imgur.com/5M7KjJi.jpg

Pedro Álvares Cabral - Portuguese navigator - Venerated as the discoverer of Brazil.

https://i.imgur.com/L3o0AIF.jpg

Pero Vaz de Caminha - Author of the birth certificate of Brazil, royal escrivener of the fleet of Pedro Álvares Cabral who communicated to King Dom Manoel I the good news.

https://i.imgur.com/ttY0KUM.jpg

Fernão de Magalhães - Portuguese navigator - Noted for having organized and started the first circumnavigation trip to the globe from 1519 to 1522

https://i.imgur.com/euw34Ne.jpg

Pedro I of Brazil (first ruler of independent Brazil - 1822 to 1831) and later (and at the same time too - this history is very confused) Pedro IV, King of Portugal and Algarves.

https://i.imgur.com/wfZnFQv.jpg

Palermo Trapani
15-06-20, 18:11
Well now In Boston I read the Abraham Lincoln Statue there is an issue. Some 7,000 or so petitions signed to take it down as it has a slave being freed resembled as such. Modern Liberals embracing full blown iconoclasm so to speak. (source NBC affiliate NYC)

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/why-is-he-still-on-his-knees-calls-grow-to-remove-statue-of-lincoln-freed-black-man/2465039/

bigsnake49
15-06-20, 23:26
Just a little something, something @Duarte in regards to Ferdinard:

In 1478, Ferdinand and Isabella had instituted the Inquisition (https://www.history.com/topics/religion/inquisition), an effort by Spanish clergy rid to the country of heretics. Pogroms, individual acts of violence against Jews, and anti-Semitic laws had been features of Catholic Spain for over a century before the Alhambra Order, causing deaths and conversions that greatly reduced Spain’s Jewish population. Having already forced much of Spain’s Jewish population to convert, the Church now set about rooting out those who suspected of practicing Judaism in secret, oftentimes by extremely violent methods. Tomas de Torquemada, the Grand Inquisitor, is said to have petitioned the monarchs to expel all Jews for years before they finally issued the order on March 31, 1492."

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/spain-announces-it-will-expel-all-jews

A lot of the expelled Spanish Jews found their way to Thessaloniki where they thrived until the Germans in the 1940s finished what the Spaniards started. A lot of Greeks traitors unfortunately turned the Jews in and received their shops or houses as a reward.

bigsnake49
15-06-20, 23:40
All I am trying to get across here is know your history. All the history, not just what they teach you in high school or in Sunday School. For example we were not taught in HS that quite a few Byzantine emperors (including Constantine the Great who is an Orthodox saint) slaughtered Greeks that still believed in the ancient gods, not to mention all the other heretics. As they say history is written by the victors and the Christians won. They only talk about how the Roman emperors persecuted the early Christians but they conveniently forgot about the Byzantine emperors persecuting non-Christians.

Duarte
15-06-20, 23:41
I read today in a newspaper of São Paulo of national circulation an article by a revisionist in favor of removing the busts and statues of the Bandeirantes exposed in the urban landscape of São Paulo under the claim that their exhibition in public places is out of context. According to the writer, these monuments should be removed for museums where the real face of these 16th and 17th century explorers would be described: “The only goal of the bandeirantes was to promote indigenous genicide and its enslavement” and the exposure of these busts in public squares and public places would be a exaltation of genicide and racism sponsored by the elite of São Paulo. He reaches the summit of proposing the change of name of streets, squares, parks and avenues and gives himself the gall to suggest the new names. The author's name and surname make clear their non-Iberian origin. It is amazing how some opportunists of occasion take advantage of the moment of crisis to make inappropriate analogies with racism. Sometimes I wonder who gave him authorization or power of attorney to do the mea-culpa on behalf of the Portuguese-descendants. Portuguese descendants have been doing mea-culpa for a long time and do not need advice or suggestions on how to deal with the guilt complex itself. Let the monuments where they are and as they are. Bad or not, it’s part of our culture.

Duarte
16-06-20, 02:34
Just a little something, something @Duarte in regards to Ferdinard:

In 1478, Ferdinand and Isabella had instituted the Inquisition (https://www.history.com/topics/religion/inquisition), an effort by Spanish clergy rid to the country of heretics. Pogroms, individual acts of violence against Jews, and anti-Semitic laws had been features of Catholic Spain for over a century before the Alhambra Order, causing deaths and conversions that greatly reduced Spain’s Jewish population. Having already forced much of Spain’s Jewish population to convert, the Church now set about rooting out those who suspected of practicing Judaism in secret, oftentimes by extremely violent methods. Tomas de Torquemada, the Grand Inquisitor, is said to have petitioned the monarchs to expel all Jews for years before they finally issued the order on March 31, 1492."

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/spain-announces-it-will-expel-all-jews

A lot of the expelled Spanish Jews found their way to Thessaloniki where they thrived until the Germans in the 1940s finished what the Spaniards started. A lot of Greeks traitors unfortunately turned the Jews in and received their shops or houses as a reward.

Sorry @bigsnake. I didn't see your post and I didn't see your reference to me.

Yes. The stain of the expulsion of the Moors, Jews and the inquisition hangs over the Catholic Kings.

At the age of 9, in a play taught in the schoolyard where I course the fourth grade of elementary school, I represented King Fernando (this is also my father's name) and a classmate represented the Queen Isabel. Teaching was part of the history classes dealing with the discovery of America.

The Catholic Kings are the founders of the Spanish nation. Allow me to clarify that for Brazilians the figure of Pedro Álvares Cabral is much more important than the figures of Cristóvão Colombo and Américo Vespúcio. Of course, we recognize the historical importance of both. The Portuguese were already aware of the existence of Brazil and the arrival here was not an accident. It was a matter of taking possession and preventing the Spaniards from taking over.

The Spanish and Portuguese inquisition was terrible. In the city of Ouro Preto, Minas Gerais, Brazil, many new Christians (Jews allegedly converted to Christianity) were burned on charges of secret Judaism practice. I am not deny all these atrocities.

I remember that after Belo Horizonte, Ouro Preto is the city I most love in this world.

Cheers ;)

nordicwarrior
17-06-20, 03:50
I'm tripping out on how you thought Anderson Cooper was "reasonably balanced"...

Not to fault Cooper unfairly though, I can't think of a single national reporter (U.S. based) who comes through as unbiased anymore.

Sad state of affairs.

EDIT: Thought of one-- Sharyl Attkisson. She's fairly middle of the road and doesn't seem like she's constantly pushing an agenda.

Angela
18-06-20, 15:46
Double digit unemployment, 100,000+ Americans have perished, but an endless parade of bread and circus microaggressions by nobodies paraded in front of the media keeps the public fighting amongst themselves over relatively trivial matters

Katie Herzog

This woman was fired because the Washington Post decided an offensive Halloween costume (for which she was already humiliated) is national news. Way to speak truth to power.





A working class Mexican man gets fired from his job because a Twitter user took a photo of him cracking his knuckles and claimed he was making a white power gesture. The Twitter user deleted their account and said they didn't mean to get him fired, fwiw. https://nbcsandiego.com/news/local/sdge-worker-fired-over-alleged-racist-gesture-says-he-was-cracking-knuckles/2347414/


These people are barking mad...the American version of the Mao's Cultural Revolution. Today they're going after members of the universities and elite media. I'm telling you, tomorrow it will be everyone.

So should we start denouncing our neighbors? When will the purges begin? Read a history of the show trials in Russia in the 30s; all those "true believers" couldn't comprehend how they could be sitting in the dock, being "tried" by their fellow Communists and countrymen for bogus crap.

You vote for people affiliated with American far left ideology, who at all tolerate them, at your peril.

Yetos
18-06-20, 20:59
Just a little something, something @Duarte in regards to Ferdinard:

In 1478, Ferdinand and Isabella had instituted the Inquisition (https://www.history.com/topics/religion/inquisition), an effort by Spanish clergy rid to the country of heretics. Pogroms, individual acts of violence against Jews, and anti-Semitic laws had been features of Catholic Spain for over a century before the Alhambra Order, causing deaths and conversions that greatly reduced Spain’s Jewish population. Having already forced much of Spain’s Jewish population to convert, the Church now set about rooting out those who suspected of practicing Judaism in secret, oftentimes by extremely violent methods. Tomas de Torquemada, the Grand Inquisitor, is said to have petitioned the monarchs to expel all Jews for years before they finally issued the order on March 31, 1492."

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/spain-announces-it-will-expel-all-jews

A lot of the expelled Spanish Jews found their way to Thessaloniki where they thrived until the Germans in the 1940s finished what the Spaniards started. A lot of Greeks traitors unfortunately turned the Jews in and received their shops or houses as a reward.

Sorry the last that is wrong.
Most of Spanish Jews left around 1860-1885, following their Great Hahami
mainly after the liberty and union of Thessaly.
and not only from Thessaloniki but also from Monasterion (today Bitola)
only the Serajevo Spanish Jews remained and expand to other Balkan areas.
Most of the modern Jews today are from Constantinoupolis, Italy, and Central Europe and mainly Eskenazy,
you can check the diaries of Allianza.
the reason was the revolt of 1821 and the role they played,

yet there are some Navarran families still left

the city center of Thessaloniki at 1855 had
48 Synagoges (most were Navarran Separatim)
24 Islamic temples (including Ntonmie and Bectashi)
24 Orthodox Churches
3 Catholic churches and 2 Catholic monasteries (1 Italian style and 1 French style)
Protestans presence is mentioned by 1851, as Μεταρυθμιστες, but not a considerable population

After the St Stefan treaty and especially at Makedonian struggle, Balkan wars, WW1 the city chanced a lot.
to end with population exchange of 1922-3 and WW2.

besides except Thessaloniki Beroia was also inhabited.


there is a nice literature book about them, at 1864
and the ancient city statues that Miller took.

https://www.methimon.gr/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/%CE%9F%CE%B9-%CE%BC%CE%B1%CE%B3%CE%B5%CE%BC%CE%AD%CE%BD%CE%B5%C F%82-%CE%9C%CE%B1%CE%AF%CF%81%CE%B7-%CE%9A%CF%8C%CE%BD%CF%84%CE%B6%CE%BF%CE%B3%CE%BB%C E%BF%CF%85-%CE%9C%CE%95%CE%A4%CE%91%CE%99%CE%A7%CE%9C%CE%99%C E%9F.jpg


that was the today Benizelou square

https://www.archaiologia.gr/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Incantadas_gravure.jpg

https://parallaximag.gr/wp-content/uploads/magemenes.jpg

nordicwarrior
19-06-20, 04:18
Excellent post Yetos... I did not know that. Also didn't realize the surprising cultural balance at that time.


This large scale destruction of statues is only the tip of the iceberg. Much more concerning is the monitoring of speech patterns, even to the granular level of pronouns. Insisting on the use of "zim" and "zer" for those who feel they are neither male nor female. This in no way fosters diversity. This is a shameless power grab.

Today's riots are not organic. How did pallet after pallet of brick get delivered to each hotspot the day before things went "live"? And this didn't happen in one city or one state-- suspicious pallets of bricks appeared everywhere. The planners didn't even bother to disguise their efforts by matching the brick color or shape to the surrounding architecture.

That being said, I'm not worried about the ability of the United States to handle this situation. Our Second Amendment was carved out by the framers for events like these. I'm not a gun-nut by any stretch, in fact I destroyed the firearm I purchased during the Great Recession (at one point I thought that we were facing society-wide food shortages because the economy was that bad) and I realized I didn't want to shoot someone looking for rice and beans for their family. This is different however.

The silent majority of Americans are now keenly observing developments, quietly studying recent trends... and organizing their defensive strategies. In other words, they are locked and loaded. Ready for whatever may come their way.

Even I have now altered my Second Amendment status. I pray I do not have to enforce my right to peacefully exist on this planet. But if this nonsense enters the threshhold of my home... it will be met with life altering force. And hastily so.

And as I've said before, I want justice for George Floyd. That man was killed needlessly and his murderer should be put behind bars for many years. No police officer should be able to act that way, and the we are going to have to make adjustments to make sure any abuse is ended quickly. But what we are seeing now is divorced from the original goal of justice. Tempers are being purposely inflamed, animosities are being exaggerated, violence is being fomented... all by a compliant corporate media.

Why?

ratchet_fan
19-06-20, 16:20
Double digit unemployment, 100,000+ Americans have perished, but an endless parade of bread and circus microaggressions by nobodies paraded in front of the media keeps the public fighting amongst themselves over relatively trivial matters

Katie Herzog

This woman was fired because the Washington Post decided an offensive Halloween costume (for which she was already humiliated) is national news. Way to speak truth to power.





A working class Mexican man gets fired from his job because a Twitter user took a photo of him cracking his knuckles and claimed he was making a white power gesture. The Twitter user deleted their account and said they didn't mean to get him fired, fwiw. https://nbcsandiego.com/news/local/sdge-worker-fired-over-alleged-racist-gesture-says-he-was-cracking-knuckles/2347414/


These people are barking mad...the American version of the Mao's Cultural Revolution. Today they're going after members of the universities and elite media. I'm telling you, tomorrow it will be everyone.

So should we start denouncing our neighbors? When will the purges begin? Read a history of the show trials in Russia in the 30s; all those "true believers" couldn't comprehend how they could be sitting in the dock, being "tried" by their fellow Communists and countrymen for bogus crap.

You vote for people affiliated with American far left ideology, who at all tolerate them, at your peril.

Its getting bad. Now you can be fired to even being associated with someone who has a opinion differing from the majority.

Trump isn't my first, second, third, fourth or fifth choice but I imagine it would only get worse if Biden was elected especially he has surrounded himself with people who aren't really moderates.

Yetos
20-06-20, 04:42
Excellent post Yetos... I did not know that. Also didn't realize the surprising cultural balance at that time.


This large scale destruction of statues is only the tip of the iceberg. Much more concerning is the monitoring of speech patterns, even to the granular level of pronouns. Insisting on the use of "zim" and "zer" for those who feel they are neither male nor female. This in no way fosters diversity. This is a shameless power grab.

Today's riots are not organic. How did pallet after pallet of brick get delivered to each hotspot the day before things went "live"? And this didn't happen in one city or one state-- suspicious pallets of bricks appeared everywhere. The planners didn't even bother to disguise their efforts by matching the brick color or shape to the surrounding architecture.

That being said, I'm not worried about the ability of the United States to handle this situation. Our Second Amendment was carved out by the framers for events like these. I'm not a gun-nut by any stretch, in fact I destroyed the firearm I purchased during the Great Recession (at one point I thought that we were facing society-wide food shortages because the economy was that bad) and I realized I didn't want to shoot someone looking for rice and beans for their family. This is different however.

The silent majority of Americans are now keenly observing developments, quietly studying recent trends... and organizing their defensive strategies. In other words, they are locked and loaded. Ready for whatever may come their way.

Even I have now altered my Second Amendment status. I pray I do not have to enforce my right to peacefully exist on this planet. But if this nonsense enters the threshhold of my home... it will be met with life altering force. And hastily so.

And as I've said before, I want justice for George Floyd. That man was killed needlessly and his murderer should be put behind bars for many years. No police officer should be able to act that way, and the we are going to have to make adjustments to make sure any abuse is ended quickly. But what we are seeing now is divorced from the original goal of justice. Tempers are being purposely inflamed, animosities are being exaggerated, violence is being fomented... all by a compliant corporate media.

Why?



what USA live today is a kind of Revanchisme of the poor consumers,

it is the reveange of the victims of the 'cold war era' and 'American Dream'

at cold war era, at East block they were speaking of previous poverty, bad nobles, power of people, they were searching for 'enemies of the people'
at W Europe they want to rebuild, so they took other roads
at USA they were 'buying Luxury'. but no new industry. they won with not an enemy boot step their land, and they had the tremendous nuc bomb. who would dare to mess with them.
so they provide the model of luxury,

note 1
You see USA had tremendous industry before WW2, but no markets, most belong to British empire etc etc
so they had an economical crash, riots etc etc,
and while Europe was rebuild under Kaynes economical model,
USA drop deeper to Chicago model,
Chicago model gradually de-industraliaze many parts of USA,
at the begin this is something looking good, since no possible economical crush, and bank and money keeps their power,
but at the end brings simple people to economical despair, since jobs etc etc,
and in a country that use to advertise the 'American dream' having no job is big depression,

note 2
all the above make culture movements, it is obvious in music,
but what was the stereotype? the smart and brilliant artist who uses drags and is a succeeded personality
from Andy Warhol, to today young superstar Justin somehow-whatever, can't remember his last name
from Merilyn Monroe to the Playboy manager Hugh Hefner etc etc
All these have effect on people,
so no matter Drugs are not allowed openly to masses,
even after 3 generations of prohibited usage, their consumtion raise and raise .

by completing the mosaic, we see many people in USA living in despair, not that much economical, but rather their personality despair.
the system slowly drives mad and they believe they are born loosers,
and then something happens, and suddenly they change and ask for reveange,
it is just like the lemmings in Siberia, when suddenly they get panic and run to the sea.
and coronavirus lockdown and jobfire help to this.

History had many such moments,
from ancient world especially Rome's plebeians,
and France and Revolution Francais,
not even a century passed from Spain's civil war.

When drags are prohibited, but for 3 generations they are advertised,
then the system sucks.
Jobless people gather wrath, till they explode.

goblinjames
20-06-20, 10:30
This is a shameless power grab. that's the point. Behind all the sweet little lies of justice and egalitarianism, the neurotic will to dominated others is the reason that leftists on power always established totalitarian dictatorships.

Angela
20-06-20, 14:46
So do far rightists.

Beware the false prophets from either extreme. Are we really going to say Nazi Germany wasn't at least as bad, if not worse than Communist Russia?

Silesian
20-06-20, 15:07
Lest we not forget the Roman empire and it's treatment of slaves, genocide under Titus (famous arch of Titus showing the spoils of a pillaged city)and the treatment of Guals.

Yetos
20-06-20, 15:30
So do far rightists.

Beware the false prophets from either extreme. Are we really going to say Nazi Germany wasn't at least as bad, if not worse than Communist Russia?


I absolutely agree.

Jovialis
20-06-20, 15:31
Lest we not forget the Roman empire and it's treatment of slaves, genocide under Titus (famous arch of Titus showing the spoils of a pillaged city)and the treatment of Guals.

The French sacked my mother's village in the 1500s, but I think it would be dumb for me to begrudge them for it today.

Yetos
20-06-20, 17:51
Its all ΧροFerens Colombo fault,
lets punish him,

Colombo di Terra Rumba seems was not a great seafarist and explorer, but a world criminal .....

https://www.cnn.gr/media/com_news/galleries/2020/06/10/22360/photos/full/AP_20162608448725.jpg


what is next? to be destroyed by wrath?


and WHAT MAKES ME WONDER?

why to punish for example Colombo
and not, always as example, Colin Powell?


why him?
https://s.nbst.gr/files/1/2010/08/03/1120330742_1719816867_holidays-columbusday-bonvoyage-97654654001.thumbnail.jpg



and not him? (always a retorical question to bring food for thought.)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/22/Colin_Powell_official_Secretary_of_State_photo.jpg/800px-Colin_Powell_official_Secretary_of_State_photo.jpg



Can someone tell me?

note 1
with the same spirit,
all Moon, Mars, etc space expeditions are criminality,
and Neil Armstrong the first who step on moon is same degree quilty as Colombo

Question 1
Is it lack of education?
is it stupid propaganda against everything from old Europe (=mother of bad things in world?)
or it is a quided hate?

Joey37
20-06-20, 17:54
The French sacked your village, too? You want to know why there are so many German-Americans in the United States with roots from the Palatinate (such as myself and our President, among others)? The French burned down the Palatinate during the Thirty Years' War and in the War of the Palatine Succession in the 1600s. The area remained economically disadvantaged for years after that, forcing young Palatines like Friedrich Trump and Peter Seller (my great-great-great-grandfather in the male line) to emigrate to New York City and Chicago, respectively. The Pennsylvania Dutch (actually Deutsch) dialect is Palatine in origin; my father likes to visit the Pennsylvania Dutch country and was delighted to find out that their language is quite close to the one our ancestors spoke in the old country.

Jovialis
20-06-20, 18:17
Columbus monument in Trenton, New Jersey covered after vandalism, some call for its removal


"The history of Christopher Columbus for so long has been wrong. It has been lies. It has been traumatizing to African Americans, Latinx, the black community," said Niambi McCoy … It's become a Latino quarter. So the question is whether that's still relevant for that area," said Gusciora.


https://6abc.com/columbus-statue-trenton-vandalized-removal/6254544/


If anything this era in American history has taught me is that violence and destruction is what makes a difference. Not rational discussion, or civility. The reason why politicians and police arrest otherwise law abiding citizens for trying to go to work during a lockdown, and not looters or protestors, is because they are afraid of the violence. They just go after who they can push around, and avoid anything too dicey. Not even the President of the United States can control the violence. I think this country is in decline, and there is no way it is coming back, unfortunately.

ratchet_fan
20-06-20, 19:04
If anything this era in American history has taught me is that violence and destruction is what makes a difference. Not rational discussion, or civility. The reason why politicians and police arrest otherwise law abiding citizens for trying to go to work during a lockdown, and not looters or protestors, is because they are afraid of the violence. They just go after who they can push around, and avoid anything too dicey. Not even the President of the United States can control the violence. I think this country is in decline, and there is no way it is coming back, unfortunately.



I agree with you. Also I disagree "Far Left-Wing Americans" in the thread title. This is most left-wring Americans even self professed moderate democrats. Country is screwed imo and the changing demographics will do nothing but ensure left wing super majorities in congress, along with the presidency and packing the Supreme Court.

Silesian
20-06-20, 19:51
Can someone tell me?

note 1
with the same spirit,
all Moon, Mars, etc space expeditions are criminality,
and Neil Armstrong the first who step on moon is same degree quilty as Colombo

Question 1
Is it lack of education?
is it stupid propaganda against everything from old Europe (=mother of bad things in world?)
or it is a quided hate?

Why even use the language of Angles-Saxons, a patriarchal, barbarian warlike people<Germanic tribe not left wing tribe>, who invaded an island. Was not the English language used in the slave trade? Why not disavow communicating in English language at the same time, while destroying historical statues of English speaking males? Could it be you want to retain the barbarian language of the slave traders to write a new version of history to suit your own needs?

ratchet_fan
20-06-20, 20:00
Why even use the language of Angles-Saxons, a patriarchal, barbarian warlike people<Germanic tribe not left wing tribe>, who invaded an island. Was not the English language used in the slave trade? Why not disavow communicating in English language at the same time, while destroying historical statues of English speaking males? Could it be you want to retain the barbarian language of the slave traders to write a new version of history to suit your own needs?

I mean by that logic they should also stop using computers and electricity too? All things invented by the white men they hate.

Silesian
21-06-20, 00:16
I mean by that logic they should also stop using computers and electricity too? All things invented by the white men they hate.
Good point.
I'm neutral, however history is interesting, ac current and early computer. Should they also not be used?
Like Tesla and eugenics and or Anglo-Saxon heritage and California Eugenics program, (progressive era 1890-1920).
As for computers, Edwin Black has done some interesting work.

Palermo Trapani
21-06-20, 00:54
If anything this era in American history has taught me is that violence and destruction is what makes a difference. Not rational discussion, or civility. The reason why politicians and police arrest otherwise law abiding citizens for trying to go to work during a lockdown, and not looters or protestors, is because they are afraid of the violence. They just go after who they can push around, and avoid anything too dicey. Not even the President of the United States can control the violence. I think this country is in decline, and there is no way it is coming back, unfortunately.



I came to the conclusion you came to about 20 years ago. The USA is the Roman Empire somewhere in 4th century AD, still economically strong, militarily strong, but internally bleeding and rotting. I just home I have checked out and met my Maker before it happens. Don't want to be here when it goes down. Alternatively, get Italian citizenship and when I retire, move my rear end to some mountain town in Sicily, which as of last summer when I was there still was still culturally intact.

In San Francisco, Grant's statue got torn down. On the other side of the country, a Statue of Robert E. Lee came down. Ironically, it was Grant who helped preserve the Union. But he did own some slaves, feed them before the War started. However, he was before he was President involved in the Wars against the Plains Indians. So that is a Sin I guess. On the other hand, he passed laws that prosecuted the KKK and appointed many religious minorities to Government positions and Blacks as well.

That is the problem with Marxist deconstructionist types, your better off arguing with a wall than those types. To go back judge Lincoln by today's standards is utter stupidity. I read also where a George Washington Statue was torn down. What we are seeing is Marxist anarchy and mob rule.

ratchet_fan
21-06-20, 02:15
I came to the conclusion you came to about 20 years ago. The USA is the Roman Empire somewhere in 4th century AD, still economically strong, militarily strong, but internally bleeding and rotting. I just home I have checked out and met my Maker before it happens. Don't want to be here when it goes down. Alternatively, get Italian citizenship and when I retire, move my rear end to some mountain town in Sicily, which as of last summer when I was there still was still culturally intact.

In San Francisco, Grant's statue got torn down. On the other side of the country, a Statue of Robert E. Lee came down. Ironically, it was Grant who helped preserve the Union. But he did own some slaves, feed them before the War started. However, he was before he was President involved in the Wars against the Plains Indians. So that is a Sin I guess. On the other hand, he passed laws that prosecuted the KKK and appointed many religious minorities to Government positions and Blacks as well.

That is the problem with Marxist deconstructionist types, your better off arguing with a wall than those types. To go back judge Lincoln by today's standards is utter stupidity. I read also where a George Washington Statue was torn down. What we are seeing is Marxist anarchy and mob rule.

Don't have that defeatist attitude man. We should want to pass something great down to our children.

nordicwarrior
27-06-20, 02:10
Bigsnake, I'm curious what you do (or what you did) for a living...may I ask? Maybe a school teacher or professor?


Totally unrelated topic... I've been watching some podcasts after work and I'm noticing a real difference between those that have been in lock down for a long time and those that have been working throughout the pandemic. I think some people that have been cut-off for too long are starting to exhibit symptoms similar to those of people forced into solitary confinement.

I'm glad I went back to my job when I did. Saw a family of four today at lunch at a Burrito shop and they were huddled together, staring at others like they were going to be accosted at any moment. The father was protecting the kids by extending his arms around them.

Kinda touching, kinda weird.

Jovialis
06-07-20, 02:32
Baltimore protesters pulled down a statue of Christopher Columbus and threw it into the city's Inner Harbor on Saturday night...Statues of Columbus have also been toppled or vandalized in cities such as Miami; Richmond, Virginia; St. Paul, Minnesota; and Boston, where one was decapitated.


https://wjla.com/news/local/video-little-italy-christopher-columbus-statue-toppled-by-baltimore-protesters?fbclid=IwAR06udeiGCuNidd_vbuaZQ0Apx8mRM r2VBN4ORNEI4zcZKiuxGC8bVNooWE

I wouldn't call these people "protestors", they are violent criminals that are destroying public property.

Angela
06-07-20, 20:00
June 15th, almost two weeks to the day after large "protests" and riots, saw covid cases start shooting way up. In California, for example, hospitalizations are seeing a frightening increase.

Now there's a shocker; somebody thought it was a good idea to encourage people to huddle together, shouting and yelling behind flimsy surgical masks for hours.

Smart. All the leaders, including people like OC, said it was more important than social distancing. I wonder if these people will feel the same way after getting hospitalized for it.

ratchet_fan
06-07-20, 20:23
June 15th, almost two weeks to the day after large "protests" and riots, saw covid cases start shooting way up. In California, for example, hospitalizations are seeing a frightening increase.

Now there's a shocker; somebody thought it was a good idea to encourage people to huddle together, shouting and yelling behind flimsy surgical masks for hours.

Smart. All the leaders, including people like OC, said it was more important than social distancing. I wonder if these people will feel the same way after getting hospitalized for it.

Its funny how liberals accused conservatives of "killing Grandma" and freaked out over a few (actually peaceful) small protests for people who wanted to go back to work but then turned around and encouraged mass protests. They've also said stupid things like if coronavirus cases rise blame racism , not the protests.