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Johane Derite
02-07-20, 17:10
Here are maps of E-V13 and which branches are where in Albanians. If we can have similar maps from other regions, I think we would have a clearer picture of the movements.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eb7agBnU0AArWNJ?format=jpg&name=4096x4096
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eb7aicMU0AAsoBM?format=jpg&name=4096x4096
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eb7aj_rU0AAt18y?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

Riverman
02-07-20, 18:21
No link, no images?

Data from Serbia and Montenegro:
https://www.poreklo.rs/2019/06/12/y-dna-haplogroups-of-ethnic-serbs/

Johane Derite
02-07-20, 18:32
No link, no images?

Its not working for you? I can see the maps

This is the source of the data: http://www.gjenetika.com/perberja-gjenetike-e-shqiptareve-sipas-linjave-aterore-2019/

Riverman
02-07-20, 18:38
Its not working for you? I can see the maps

This is the source of the data: http://www.gjenetika.com/perberja-gjenetike-e-shqiptareve-sipas-linjave-aterore-2019/

Images don't work for me. The link works.

Johane Derite
02-07-20, 18:52
Images don't work for me. The link works.

Hm, dunno why.

Here I uploaded them to imgur in case anyone else can't see them:

Image one: https://i.imgur.com/MoN2B4l.jpg
Image two: https://i.imgur.com/K49NAev.jpg
Image three: https://i.imgur.com/5Arta2X.jpg

Riverman
02-07-20, 19:27
Considering that a lot of those clades seem to have come about 1500-700 BC, not just in Albania, but elsewhere too, I think its related to the Late Bronze Age to Early Iron Age and the expansions of different Indo-European groups, but for Albanians especially Illyrians. Would be really interesting to compare Neolithic:Bronze Age:Iron Age once more ancient DNA samples are in. I guess there was quite some change in between...

Johane Derite
02-07-20, 19:41
Considering that a lot of those clades seem to have come about 1500-700 BC, not just in Albania, but elsewhere too, I think its related to the Late Bronze Age to Early Iron Age and the expansions of different Indo-European groups, but for Albanians especially Illyrians. Would be really interesting to compare Neolithic:Bronze Age:Iron Age once more ancient DNA samples are in. I guess there was quite some change in between...

For now in Albanians, i would say Z5018 seems slightly more middle to late bronze age, while Z5017 seems to be a late bronze age to early iron age as its all.under CTS9320.

Its possible this is just sampling error though. We are still in early days, and its.volunteer.

I hope other balkan projects can contribute maps and data

Riverman
02-07-20, 19:46
For now in Albanians, i would say Z5018 seems slightly more middle to late bronze age, while Z5017 seems to be a late bronze age to early iron age as its all.under CTS9320.
Its possible this is just sampling error though. We are still in early days, and its.volunteer.
I hope other balkan projects can contribute maps and data

From what I saw in other regions of Europe its pretty much the same, so whereever they came from, which source group was the starting point, its all about Bronze to Iron Age transitions which caused the spread. The clades are not geographically restricted before, but more so afterwards, after the Iron Age, with more limited historical movements of people.

Progon
02-07-20, 20:39
From what i have seen in FTDNA most of Sicilian E-V13 don't fall in Z5017 or Z5018. I think they have some other clades within Z1057, interesting. But the sample size is very small.

Riverman
02-07-20, 22:35
From what i have seen in FTDNA most of Sicilian E-V13 don't fall in Z5017 or Z5018. I think they have some other clades within Z1057, interesting. But the sample size is very small.

Small sample size is the problem, like we have fairly larger samples from Serbia, Albania, Great Britain and Sardinia, but very small NGS sample sizes for regions like Romania, Moldavia, Hungary, Slovakia, Czech R., many parts of Germany, Russia and so on. Things could change quite a lot once more samples are coming in. Percentage wise E-V13 might be smaller there, but in absolute numbers huge portions of the total European V13 population live in those and other places.

kuzmosi
18-07-20, 13:07
Thank you Johane!

Good job and great help for us. It seems the kosovars are not Z5017 descendants, but Z5018. Can you tell me what is your theory for this? And another question. Do you know any albanian who is Z17107+ but Z38456-?

I will collected the known hungarian V13 samples as soon as I can.

kuzmosi
18-07-20, 14:05
At this time in the FtDNA Hungarian Project, we know 43 V13+ sample. But unfortunately there is not much deeper definition.

Under V13 we known 9:
Z5018
CTS9320
FT106938 (under CTS9320)
BY125229 (under S2979)
BY28624(under Y35953)
S10743 (under Y35953)
Y167028 (CTS9320 - Z17107)
BY52491 (under S7461)
A6295 (under L540)

And from my own research (from the YFULL members and samples collected by myself. (these are not in the FTDNA hungarian project):

A19238 (CTS9320-Z17107)
Y81971(CTS9320-Z17107)
BY4223 (CTS9320)
BY4518 (CTS9320)
S10743(CTS9320)
A7065 (Z5018)
BY5681 (Z5018)
BY5650 (Z5018)
S7461* (under BY3880)

and according this study an archeological sample from the era of the Arpads a BY4992 (under Z5018):

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41431-020-0683-z

So, at this time 19 exactly determined hungarian V13 sample
5 under Z5018
8 under Z5017
6 under other subclades.

PS: How can I made a map from the locations?

kuzmosi
18-07-20, 14:12
sorry: 6 under Z5018 and 5 under other (2 under Y35953, 2 under S7461, 1 under L540)

Angela
18-07-20, 14:31
Does anyone have any data on the E-V13 present in Liguria? We have quite a bit of it. There's quite a bit also in the Veneto.

In terms of Liguria and the area around Venice I thought perhaps it was Greek in origin, but I don't know enough about the subject to really venture an opinion.

kuzmosi
18-07-20, 15:05
I don't know anyone except Garibaldi, nor do I know his subgroup.

In my opinion, the V13 came from Central Europe, not the Balkans. With the Urnfield groups and later the Hallstatt. From here it became the part of the celtic, illyrian, dacian and thracian tribes. But later came V13 groups to the Balkans, the Carpathian Basin and Italy, with the La Téne celts too. I think many V13 families arrived to Italy with the protovillanovans, etruscs and venetians, later with the germanic tribes (ostrogoths and the longobards). According my mytrueancestry results, I have many archeological match from Italy (mostly lombards and franks) But my 4th closest match a V13 too from Catalunya:

4. Visigoth Mixed Slav Girona
550 AD - Genetic Distance: 13.57 - I12031
Top 90 % match vs all users https://mytrueancestry.com/img/SpotVisigoth.pngCulture: VisigothThe Pla de l'Horta villa is located 4 km from Girona Spain and was constructed in the 1st century BC. The villa housed various wine presses and industrial areas dating from the 4th century AD. To the north lies a necropolis associated with the villa with a funerary building and a series of tombs. The site belongs to the villa and would subsequently be enlarged in the Visigoth period. There are 58 burials identified at this site from the Visigothic period containing grave goods and items pointing to a Visigothic origin of the individuals.

For images of the dig site and skeletons found you can see them here (https://mytrueancestry.com/dashboard/main.py#).
mtDNA: H1e2
Y-DNA: E1b1b1a1b1a (L142.1) ISOGG 2020

Johane Derite
18-07-20, 15:56
At this time in the FtDNA Hungarian Project, we know 43 V13+ sample. But unfortunately there is not much deeper definition.

Under V13 we known 9:
Z5018
CTS9320
FT106938 (under CTS9320)
BY125229 (under S2979)
BY28624(under Y35953)
S10743 (under Y35953)
Y167028 (CTS9320 - Z17107)
BY52491 (under S7461)
A6295 (under L540)

And from my own research (from the YFULL members and samples collected by myself. (these are not in the FTDNA hungarian project):

A19238 (CTS9320-Z17107)
Y81971(CTS9320-Z17107)
BY4223 (CTS9320)
BY4518 (CTS9320)
S10743(CTS9320)
A7065 (Z5018)
BY5681 (Z5018)
BY5650 (Z5018)
S7461* (under BY3880)

and according this study an archeological sample from the era of the Arpads a BY4992 (under Z5018):

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41431-020-0683-z

So, at this time 19 exactly determined hungarian V13 sample
5 under Z5018
8 under Z5017
6 under other subclades.

PS: How can I made a map from the locations?

Thanks for the kind words and information Kuzmosi. I manually drew the points on to the locations. I think there are apps or software that you can input data and it will plot the points on the map for you, but i'm not familiar with which they are atm. If you send me the locations roughly of the samples I can make a map in the same style with these results and post it here

Johane Derite
18-07-20, 15:59
Thank you Johane!

Good job and great help for us. It seems the kosovars are not Z5017 descendants, but Z5018. Can you tell me what is your theory for this? And another question. Do you know any albanian who is Z17107+ but Z38456-?

I will collected the known hungarian V13 samples as soon as I can.

For now, barring one result, all Albanian Z5017 seems to be under one branch, and ~2,900 TMRCA. If it is not just a sampling bias, then maybe this came as a compact group around ~900-700 BC, possibly a slightly more north-east IE group than the Z5018. Really speculative, and will become more clear with more results, possibly entirely wrong.

Johane Derite
18-07-20, 18:26
Does anyone have any data on the E-V13 present in Liguria? We have quite a bit of it. There's quite a bit also in the Veneto.

In terms of Liguria and the area around Venice I thought perhaps it was Greek in origin, but I don't know enough about the subject to really venture an opinion.

Don't know much. If an Italian EV13 that has info on the branches and regions is here, he/she can send me the info in dm and I will make a map to post here. Likewise for Greece as knowing the distribution of branches in Greece would probably clarify a lot.

kuzmosi
20-07-20, 13:16
Thank you Johane! This places are the first known paternal ancestors birthplaces. Most of the donors lived in different parts of Hungary. Thank you for your help again.

Under V13 we known 9:
Z5018 https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaj%C3%A1n
CTS9320 https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pen%C3%A9szlek
FT106938 (under CTS9320) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karcag
BY125229 (under S2979) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarud
BY28624(under Y35953) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olys%C3%B3
S10743 (under Y35953) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szolnocska
Y167028 (CTS9320 - Z17107) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindszent
BY52491 (under S7461) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szatm%C3%A1rn%C3%A9meti
A6295 (under L540) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%A9lfeny%C3%A9r

And from my own research (from the YFULL members and samples collected by myself. (these are not in the FTDNA hungarian project):

A19238 (CTS9320-Z17107) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%A1rdh%C3%A1za
Y81971(CTS9320-Z17107) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr%C3%A1gab%C3%A1rtfalva
BY4223 (CTS9320) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beszterceb%C3%A1nya
BY4518 (CTS9320) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laborcradv%C3%A1ny
S10743(CTS9320) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szeged
A7065 (Z5018) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mez%C5%91kov%C3%A1csh%C3%A1za
BY5681 (Z5018) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedri
BY5650 (Z5018) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eger
S7461* (under BY3880) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagyk%C3%A1roly

and according this study an archeological sample from the era of the Arpads a BY4992 (under Z5018): https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sz%C3%A9kesfeh%C3%A9rv%C3%A1r

Johane Derite
20-07-20, 23:02
Thank you Johane! This places are the first known paternal ancestors birthplaces. Most of the donors lived in different parts of Hungary. Thank you for your help again.

Under V13 we known 9:
Z5018 https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaj%C3%A1n
CTS9320 https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pen%C3%A9szlek
FT106938 (under CTS9320) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karcag
BY125229 (under S2979) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarud
BY28624(under Y35953) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olys%C3%B3
S10743 (under Y35953) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szolnocska
Y167028 (CTS9320 - Z17107) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindszent
BY52491 (under S7461) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szatm%C3%A1rn%C3%A9meti
A6295 (under L540) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%A9lfeny%C3%A9r

And from my own research (from the YFULL members and samples collected by myself. (these are not in the FTDNA hungarian project):

A19238 (CTS9320-Z17107) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%A1rdh%C3%A1za
Y81971(CTS9320-Z17107) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr%C3%A1gab%C3%A1rtfalva
BY4223 (CTS9320) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beszterceb%C3%A1nya
BY4518 (CTS9320) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laborcradv%C3%A1ny
S10743(CTS9320) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szeged
A7065 (Z5018) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mez%C5%91kov%C3%A1csh%C3%A1za
BY5681 (Z5018) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedri
BY5650 (Z5018) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eger
S7461* (under BY3880) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagyk%C3%A1roly

and according this study an archeological sample from the era of the Arpads a BY4992 (under Z5018): https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sz%C3%A9kesfeh%C3%A9rv%C3%A1r

Awesome, i will try to complete it in the nexf couple of days as i've got quite a busy schedule this week

kuzmosi
21-07-20, 18:21
Thank you.

Hairarmy
25-07-20, 02:58
there were 3 split lines here and I am now a 4th line at S2979>BY6125>FT191655 any Idea what the 4th Family may have been or people?

Johane Derite
24-08-20, 17:54
Thank you Johane! This places are the first known paternal ancestors birthplaces. Most of the donors lived in different parts of Hungary. Thank you for your help again.

Under V13 we known 9:
Z5018 https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaj%C3%A1n
CTS9320 https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pen%C3%A9szlek
FT106938 (under CTS9320) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karcag
BY125229 (under S2979) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarud
BY28624(under Y35953) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olys%C3%B3
S10743 (under Y35953) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szolnocska
Y167028 (CTS9320 - Z17107) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindszent
BY52491 (under S7461) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szatm%C3%A1rn%C3%A9meti
A6295 (under L540) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%A9lfeny%C3%A9r

And from my own research (from the YFULL members and samples collected by myself. (these are not in the FTDNA hungarian project):

A19238 (CTS9320-Z17107) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%A1rdh%C3%A1za
Y81971(CTS9320-Z17107) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr%C3%A1gab%C3%A1rtfalva
BY4223 (CTS9320) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beszterceb%C3%A1nya
BY4518 (CTS9320) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laborcradv%C3%A1ny
S10743(CTS9320) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szeged
A7065 (Z5018) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mez%C5%91kov%C3%A1csh%C3%A1za
BY5681 (Z5018) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedri
BY5650 (Z5018) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eger
S7461* (under BY3880) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagyk%C3%A1roly

and according this study an archeological sample from the era of the Arpads a BY4992 (under Z5018): https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sz%C3%A9kesfeh%C3%A9rv%C3%A1r

I'm sorry for the big delay, i've been swamped with work stuff unexpectedly. I've only done a map in the zoomed out version, as it took a bit longer since i didn't know the regions, and with only 8 or 6 samples per Z5018 branch etc, it didn't seem enough data for now to do a map specifically just for z5018 or z5017. As we get more samples I will be up to do it for sure.

From the results you gave me, there isn't much western presence, it all seems to be central and eastern regions. I don't know how representative this is, time will tell.

https://i.imgur.com/Aw85ED6.png

kuzmosi
30-08-20, 11:58
Dear hairarmy!

Are your direct paternal line ancestors came from Hungary?

kuzmosi
30-08-20, 12:14
Dear Johane! I'm very grateful for your help. Thank you.

Well, yes. At this time these are all the well-known families under V13 from Hungary. I found 47 other V13+ families (with different family name) but these have no breakdown under V13.

Yes, it seems the eastern parts are better represented. The Alföld (Hungarian Plains) and the northeastern mountains. And yes, we need much more datas.

kuzmosi
30-08-20, 12:23
I almost forget. The TMRCA of the two Z17107 sample from today Ukraina (my branch, the Küzmös and Szinetar/Senetar families)lived 550 years ago. And their closest direct paternal line relative is an albanian from Tirana since 2300 years ago. But I don't know the family name, all he said was that all his ancestors were albanians from Tirana (YF72389)

https://yfull.com/tree/E-A19247/

This was the date of the great celtic attack against the Balkans from the HUngarian plains. The hungarian samples came from the territory of the anartii tribe, a celtic tribe which was later defeated by the dacians and merged among the dacians until the campeign of Traian.

What do you think?