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CrazyDonkey
11-07-20, 06:33
I recently had my Y-DNA tested at FamilyTreeDNA (Y37) and was surprised to find that I'm predicted to be I-M223, an ancient WHG haplogroup. I've got two matches (33 out of 37) with my surname (Callihan/Callahan).

Maciamo in his write-up on I2a2/P214 (the vast majority of which are I2a2a/M223) has a map that shows hot spots in 1) central Germany, 2) northern Sweden, and 3) SE Northern Ireland/SW Scotland:

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml#I2a2

The "The DNA of the Irish Gael" article at Irish Origenes (https://www.irishorigenes.com/content/dna-irish-gael) also has a map showing the same Ulster/Scotland area as strong for I-M223. There are significant numbers of Callahans in SE Ulster, although most are in south Ireland (around Cork). My earliest Callihan ancestor likely emigrated from Ireland to Pennsylvania in the 1750s.

Any thoughts/theories on how and when I-M223 carriers (presumably including future Callahans) made their way to SE Ulster?

Eochaidh
11-07-20, 14:15
I recently had my Y-DNA tested at FamilyTreeDNA (Y37) and was surprised to find that I'm predicted to be I-M223, an ancient WHG haplogroup. I've got two matches (33 out of 37) with my surname (Callihan/Callahan).

Maciamo in his write-up on I2a2/P214 (the vast majority of which are I2a2a/M223) has a map that shows hot spots in 1) central Germany, 2) northern Sweden, and 3) SE Northern Ireland/SW Scotland:

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml#I2a2

The "The DNA of the Irish Gael" article at Irish Origenes (https://www.irishorigenes.com/content/dna-irish-gael) also has a map showing the same Ulster/Scotland area as strong for I-M223. There are significant numbers of Callahans in SE Ulster, although most are in south Ireland (around Cork). My earliest Callihan ancestor likely emigrated from Ireland to Pennsylvania in the 1750s.

Any thoughts/theories on how and when I-M223 carriers (presumably including future Callahans) made their way to SE Ulster?
I don't know if this relates to your family, but this is what is known about yHG I in southeast Ulster (County Down). Jean Manco has similar information in her book "Blood of the Celts".

The Cruthin were an ancient people living in eastern Ulster in the current counties of Antrim and Down. They occupied the western part of these counties while the Dál Riada and Dál Fiatach occupied the eastern parts respectively. The two later groups were considered Érainn, while the first two were not. Around 800 AD, the Cruthin split into two groups, the Dál nAraidi in western Antrim and the Uí Echach Cobo in western Down. Around 1000 AD, the Uí Echach Coba were dominated by the Maginness and McCartan families.

In the famous Trimity University DNA study by Brian McEvoy in 2006, there were large samples of these two families and about half were yHG I, which he called IxI1b2.

The Norman conquest of County Down, from 1176-1200, drove the Dál Fiatach out of east Down to County Louth, where a relative was king, but the Normans did not drive out the Uí Echach Cobo in the west of Down and they are still there as the Maginness and McCartan families and what ever names their descendants adopted in the next 1000 years.

Palermo Trapani
11-07-20, 18:11
I recently had my Y-DNA tested at FamilyTreeDNA (Y37) and was surprised to find that I'm predicted to be I-M223, an ancient WHG haplogroup. I've got two matches (33 out of 37) with my surname (Callihan/Callahan).

Maciamo in his write-up on I2a2/P214 (the vast majority of which are I2a2a/M223) has a map that shows hot spots in 1) central Germany, 2) northern Sweden, and 3) SE Northern Ireland/SW Scotland:

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml#I2a2

The "The DNA of the Irish Gael" article at Irish Origenes (https://www.irishorigenes.com/content/dna-irish-gael) also has a map showing the same Ulster/Scotland area as strong for I-M223. There are significant numbers of Callahans in SE Ulster, although most are in south Ireland (around Cork). My earliest Callihan ancestor likely emigrated from Ireland to Pennsylvania in the 1750s.

Any thoughts/theories on how and when I-M223 carriers (presumably including future Callahans) made their way to SE Ulster?

Funny, I am an American of Sicilian Italian Ancestry (tutti) and I am I-M223 as well. In fact, 2 of the 3 Mesolithic Roman Western Hunter Gathers (WHG) in the Antonio et al 2019 paper on Ancient Rome were I-M223. Pretty interesting. Here are the Supplements to that paper. All 2 were I-M223 as I indicated, and the other one was I-M436, which I-M223 is a downstream sub-clade of.

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/suppl/2019/11/06/366.6466.708.DC1/aay6826_Antonio_SM.pdf


https://science.sciencemag.org/content/suppl/2019/11/06/366.6466.708.DC1

CrazyDonkey
11-07-20, 21:45
Funny, I am an American of Sicilian Italian Ancestry (tutti) and I am I-M223 as well. In fact, 2 of the 3 Mesolithic Roman Western Hunter Gathers (WHG) in the Antonio et al 2019 paper on Ancient Rome were I-M223. Pretty interesting. Here are the Supplements to that paper. All 2 were I-M223 as I indicated, and the other one was I-M436, which I-M223 is a downstream sub-clade of.

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/suppl/2019/11/06/366.6466.708.DC1/aay6826_Antonio_SM.pdf


https://science.sciencemag.org/content/suppl/2019/11/06/366.6466.708.DC1

From my reading, I-M223 was the most widely spread and successful WHG haplogroup, having followed the retreating ice-sheets west and north, possibly from the Epigravettian refugium, so can show up almost anywhere in Europe, from Sweden to Sicily, Ukraine to Ireland. Sicily and Italy would have been on the western edge of the Epigravettian refugium.

Palermo Trapani
11-07-20, 23:08
CrazyDonkey: Oh I agree, the WHG refugium was indeed across Italy from the North (Villabruna) to Sicily. And part of the Epigravettian refugium. Recent paper by Catalano et al 2020 with further studying of the Sicilian WHG from Favignana confirms that Orientale C was related to the WHG across the Italian peninsula

https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/reich.hms.harvard.edu/files/inline-files/1-s2.0-S1040618220300264-main.pdf

There is a bioxRxiv pre-print paper "Genomic and dietary transitions during the Mesolithic and Early Neolithic in Sicily" by VandeLoosdrecht et al 2020, that has 18 new Mesolithic to Neolithic Samples from West Sicily, the Grotta Del Uzzo Site in Trapani that is at bioriox and 2 of the WHG were Y-DNA I, one of the 2 I-M436, again of which I-M223 (sample UZZ81) is downstream from. So interesting to me both scholarly level in terms of learning more about the WHG across Europe plus on a personal level since many of my ancestors immigrated from provincial Trapani and that is my Y-DNA Haplogroup.

Cheers

CrazyDonkey
11-07-20, 23:08
I don't know if this relates to your family, but this is what is known about yHG I in southeast Ulster (County Down). Jean Manco has similar information in her book "Blood of the Celts".

The Cruthin were an ancient people living in eastern Ulster in the current counties of Antrim and Down. They occupied the western part of these counties while the Dál Riada and Dál Fiatach occupied the eastern parts respectively. The two later groups were considered Érainn, while the first two were not. Around 800 AD, the Cruthin split into two groups, the Dál nAraidi in western Antrim and the Uí Echach Cobo in western Down. Around 1000 AD, the Uí Echach Coba were dominated by the Maginness and McCartan families.

In the famous Trimity University DNA study by Brian McEvoy in 2006, there were large samples of these two families and about half were yHG I, which he called IxI1b2.

The Norman conquest of County Down, from 1176-1200, drove the Dál Fiatach out of east Down to County Louth, where a relative was king, but the Normans did not drive out the Uí Echach Cobo in the west of Down and they are still there as the Maginness and McCartan families and what ever names their descendants adopted in the next 1000 years.

Thanks for the great response - lots to chew on. Ordered "Blood of the Celts". There are Callahans in and around County Down, but I don't know yet if my ancestor was one of them. I'm hoping to triangulate a more specific location once I've contacted the two M223 Callahans in my match list (after finishing my background research). I have an even closer match (35 out of 37), but with a different, non-Irish (English) surname, which might conceivably be linked to the Callahans through adoption, for instance - many Irish were orphaned following the Irish Rebellion (1641) and Cromwell's Invasion (1649).

CrazyDonkey
12-07-20, 00:05
In the famous Trinity University DNA study by Brian McEvoy in 2006, there were large samples of these two families and about half were yHG I, which he called IxI1b2.

From the study:


There is also more tentative evidence for the survival of a pre-historic genealogical record in the Eóganacht adynasty of Munster. The recent common ancestor of several surname lineages with reputed Eóganachta origins is at least consistent with both the idea of single dynastic ancestor and the suggested timeframe (ca.400 AD). It is a hypothesis easily tested by comparing the Y chromosome diversity of other putative Eóganachta derived names, such as O‘Callaghan, O‘Keefe and O‘Mahoney, to that found in surnames originating from other Munster population or tribal groupings. In the 10th century, one such group, the Dál Cais, took political control of Munster and genealogies were apparently forged to link them to the Eóganachtaas a means of validating the change of power (Ó Corráin 1972, pg 9). In this regard, it is interesting to note that the primary lineage in the Kennedy surname, which arose from the Dál Cais leaders, does not show the putative Eóganachta haplotype although, intriguingly, it is only one mutational step removed. The idea of a biologically-defined ruling caste also appears to have parallels in the Northern Ireland equivalent of the Eóganachta. Here the Uí Néill grouping also seems to have reflected or supported their political control with a large kin group (Moore 2004).

http://www.tara.tcd.ie/bitstream/handle/2262/77578/McEvoy%2c%20Brian%202005.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y


Irish: reduced Anglicized form of Gaelic Ó Ceallacháin ‘descendant of Ceallachán’, a diminutive of the personal name Ceallach, possibly meaning ‘lover of churches’, from ceall ‘church’, or (more likely) ‘bright-headed’, from cen ‘head’ + lach ‘light’. This name was borne by a 10th-century king of Munster, from whom many present-day bearers of the surname claim descent.

--Dictionary of American Family Names ©2013, Oxford University Press.

dog12008
24-08-20, 07:17
Hi, I am new to this forum. My surname is McEvoy. I am confirmed I-M223 with FTDNA, I have done the Y-67 test.
I am predicted I-Y4751 as I am placed in that group on the McEvoy/McAvoy surname project and also in the I-M223 project.
My McEvoy/McAvoy (the reason for both McEvoy/McAvoy is because McEvoy and McAvoy is on the records I have found) ancestors were from Northern Ireland. My 2nd Great-Grandfather John McAvoy (signed marriage record as McAvoy) was born in Armagh.
Not to sure if you wanted to know some of my ancestors but did type just in case.

I would love to learn more about my haplogroup and any ancient DNA information about the haplogroup, and also any of the ancient skeletons that were DNA tested with the I haplogroup. I have been following the articles about NG10 from Newgrange. Also I just saw today that SRA62 is located on the YFull tree.

Hope to chat soon.

CrazyDonkey
12-09-20, 05:20
Hi, I am new to this forum. My surname is McEvoy. I am confirmed I-M223 with FTDNA, I have done the Y-67 test.
I am predicted I-Y4751 as I am placed in that group on the McEvoy/McAvoy surname project and also in the I-M223 project.
My McEvoy/McAvoy (the reason for both McEvoy/McAvoy is because McEvoy and McAvoy is on the records I have found) ancestors were from Northern Ireland. My 2nd Great-Grandfather John McAvoy (signed marriage record as McAvoy) was born in Armagh.
Not to sure if you wanted to know some of my ancestors but did type just in case.

I would love to learn more about my haplogroup and any ancient DNA information about the haplogroup, and also any of the ancient skeletons that were DNA tested with the I haplogroup. I have been following the articles about NG10 from Newgrange. Also I just saw today that SRA62 is located on the YFull tree.

Hope to chat soon.

Sorry for not responding sooner - haven't been back for a while.

We're both in the same bailywick - the I-M223 Y-DNA Haplogroup Project administraters at FamilyTreeDNA think I'll be somewhere in the Isles Scots/Irish I-Y4171 branch, based on my matches, which is just two steps above where you're predicted (Y4171 -> Y4142 -> Y4751). I've ordered the Big Y-700 upgrade (from Y-37), so that should pin it down.

I'm partial to a Cruthin (Ulster) <- Novantae/Rheged (Galloway/Scotland) <- Suebi/Suevi (Swabia/Germany) <- Svear (Swedes) genetic migration path. The Suebi would have accompanied the Romans as auxiliaries (cavalry) and then assimilated with the Brittons. See:

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-I2b.gif

Here's an interesting read: https://y-haplogroup.blogspot.com/2019/03/i2-origins-and-isles.html
(https://y-haplogroup.blogspot.com/2019/03/i2-origins-and-isles.html)
My earliest known ancestor, Thomas C Callihan, was born in Ireland (likely Ulster) in 1757 and died in 1841 in Bedford County, Pennsylvania. There are two separate reports on Mormon genealogy sites of a James A Callahan/James Callahan, born in 1735 in Ireland, as his father, but with no sources cited. My progenitors migrated from Pennsylvania to Nebraska to Bellingham, Washington, where I was born.

MOESAN
12-09-20, 14:35
Cruithin << Suebi?
You need deeper downstream SNP's to affirm this. Y-I2a2 bearers were already in Britain along Y-I2a1 ones at the Late Neolithic. Rather megalithics or people close to the 'Long Barrows' people. Without more precision we cannot affirm they all descend from an unique pop and we cannot say the direction of genes flow.

CrazyDonkey
12-09-20, 20:09
Cruithin << Suebi?
You need deeper downstream SNP's to affirm this. Y-I2a2 bearers were already in Britain along Y-I2a1 ones at the Late Neolithic. Rather megalithics or people close to the 'Long Barrows' people. Without more precision we cannot affirm they all descend from an unique pop and we cannot say the direction of genes flow.

Yes, still just a theory at this point. It is Maciamo's I2a2 map that I posted (and which can conceivably serve as a stand-in for I2a2a. or M223, since it makes up 90% of I2a2, according to Maciamo). His I2a1 map shows a very different picture. Granted, two of three hot spots (+10%) in Maciamo's I2a2 map could be the result of founder's effects, rather than remnants of population movements. It would be nice to see what a map for I2a2a1 (M284), which feeds into the Scottish/Ireland Isles branch, would show.

Note that the Suebi were not a tribe, but at most a loose confederation of Germanic tribes: Suebia = Swabia (central Germany). The question relative to the megalithic (Bell Beakers?) or Proto-Celtic theories is why I2a2/I2a2a bearers are present in much of Britain and concentrated in SW Scotland/SE Ulster, but rare in the rest of Ireland. Note that most of France (home of the Celtic Gauls) has only 1-2%. Some I1 and I2 likely came in with the Vikings.

spruithean
12-09-20, 20:51
Swabia is in southwestern Germany, not really central. Secondly the maps for I2 here are a bit behind and they are not showing distribution of specific subclades, especially those that are solely Isles related. I highly doubt the Suebi are the same as or predecessors of the Cruithne.

MOESAN
13-09-20, 20:29
I've no time to date.
One thing to do would be to found the thies between the N-E Irish S-E Scottish subclades of Y-I2a2a : closer to megalithic Iberia, to eastern Europe tribes involved in supposed IE moves towards West??? A first pace: the answer could very well change the perspective.

CrazyDonkey
13-09-20, 20:35
Swabia is in southwestern Germany, not really central. Secondly the maps for I2 here are a bit behind and they are not showing distribution of specific subclades, especially those that are solely Isles related. I highly doubt the Suebi are the same as or predecessors of the Cruithne.

It's an interesting hypothesis that has been seriously put forward. The Suebi (Marcomanni/Quatti) were in SW Germany, east of the Rhine, from at least the 1st Century BC - the modern I2a2 hotspot encompasses SW Germany, but is concentrated in central Germany.

I'm asking where the genes, not necessarily the "people" came from - German auxiliaries did accompany the Romans into Britain and it is simply logical to assume that they assimilated with the Britons.

If the genes came in with the Corded Ware/Bell Beakers or with the Proto-Celtics, why did I2a2a (M223) not spread throughout Britain, Scotland, and Ireland, rather than being rare (0-2%) in Ireland outside Ulster? The Romans, on the other hand, never entered Ireland.

I'd love to see a more current map for I2a2a1 (M284).


I2a2a1 (M284) seems to have arisen in Britain, where it is most common. It is very rare in Continental Europe, where the highest frequency is found in Portugal, Britain's oldest ally. James Wilson argues that this points to an Iberian origin in the Mesolithic,12 but the calculated TMRCAis far too late for such a scenario, and the parent clade is not found there. Instead the flow was mos tprobably in the other direction - to Portugal over the centuries with British merchants, diplomats, sailors and soldiers. M284 is comparatively rare in Ireland. Where it is found in those of Irish descent with Gaelic surnames, and particularly in baronial families with a credible pedigree back to a Cruithin (British) origin, this suggests an ancestor who arrived in Ireland from Celtic Britain. For example it is found in McGuinness and McCartan men descended from the Uí Echach Cobha, a lineage considered Cruithin in the 6th century AD.13 See Celtic Tribes of Ireland for more on the Cruithin and their time of arrival in Ireland.

I2a2a1a (L126/S165) is most common in Scotland and those of Scots ancestry.14

https://www.waughfamily.ca/Ancient/The%20Story%20of%20Y-DNA%20Haplogroup%20I.pdf

MOESAN
14-09-20, 19:11
At the margin, Some Suebi have been recruted by Rome just before our era, but the settlements of their tribes were rather more North and more East than the Rhine valley in SW Germany, rather around the river Main and beyond. By the way, they were at those times a bagful of diverse Germanic tribes, and I doubt Y-I2a2 has ever been a major Y-haplo among them, even if Maciamo thinks they could have brought Y-I2a2a3... Z161+L801+ in N-Portugal and Galicia.
I do'nt know what is the density of this haplo among NE Irishmen and S Scots but their most common haplo is under I2a2a1 ...M284+ L1195+, downstream of an old ancestor of western Megalithic culture and I doubt it has been brought to them by Germanic auxilliaries of Rome. I2a2a1 today is seldom in Portugal W Iberia, and here again, I doubt that traders (surely of diverse Y-haplo's and not in position to leave an heavy genetic print) are the only responsible people for its presence there.

spruithean
15-09-20, 18:15
It's an interesting hypothesis that has been seriously put forward. The Suebi (Marcomanni/Quatti) were in SW Germany, east of the Rhine, from at least the 1st Century BC - the modern I2a2 hotspot encompasses SW Germany, but is concentrated in central Germany.

I'm asking where the genes, not necessarily the "people" came from - German auxiliaries did accompany the Romans into Britain and it is simply logical to assume that they assimilated with the Britons.

If the genes came in with the Corded Ware/Bell Beakers or with the Proto-Celtics, why did I2a2a (M223) not spread throughout Britain, Scotland, and Ireland, rather than being rare (0-2%) in Ireland outside Ulster? The Romans, on the other hand, never entered Ireland.

I'd love to see a more current map for I2a2a1 (M284).



https://www.waughfamily.ca/Ancient/The%20Story%20of%20Y-DNA%20Haplogroup%20I.pdf

Who has put the hypothesis forward?

I-M284 is quite old, roughly 10,000 years old. It's subclades split some 7000 years ago and all carriers likely share a Megalithic era ancestor some 6000 years ago. Specific subclades matter for a hypothesis as some lineages can be explained by back migration, British or Irish soldiers settling down on the continent after various conflicts, etc. Isles specific I2 lineages likely did not spread across England, Scotland, Wales, or Ireland due to the success of R1b in the Isles in general.

To your last comment, we can't be so sure that the Romans never entered Ireland. We do know there was contact to some degree.

Rmccubbin
31-10-20, 20:59
CrazyDonkey,

Dr. Bowes should be releasing another blog post soon regarding your question, updated with the latest BigY analysis. It builds on something he wrote previously. I'm prohibited from posting a link to it, but he authored a previous article on the origin of the Scottish Gaels that I think is relevant to your Ulster heritage.

-Ryan

CrazyDonkey
15-11-20, 23:37
The main issue I have with Dr. Bowes' theory is that both the Irish Gaels and Scottish Gaels ("Scotti") spoke a Q-Celtic dialect, while the Brythons, Welsh, Manx, and possibly Picts spoke a P-Celtic dialect. That argues that it was Brythonic ("Pritanic") clans that invaded SE Ulster and became the Cruthin, at some time prior to 558 AD*. Britane (Latin) = Pritane (P-Celtic) = (Q)ruthin (P-Celtic). The genetic connection looks to be from Galloway/Strathclyde (Scotland) to SE Ulster (Counties Down and Antrim), while the Irish/Scottish Gaels look, somewhat contemporaneously, to have migrated from NE Ulster to western Pictland.

Bowes does seem to identify the Marcomanni, Suevi, etc., as his "Proto-Celts".

*About 20 years following the 536 AD global cooling event: https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/11/why-536-was-worst-year-be-alive

Where they all came from before that is an open question.

CrazyDonkey
01-12-20, 20:57
Hi, I am new to this forum. My surname is McEvoy. I am confirmed I-M223 with FTDNA, I have done the Y-67 test.
I am predicted I-Y4751 as I am placed in that group on the McEvoy/McAvoy surname project and also in the I-M223 project.
My McEvoy/McAvoy (the reason for both McEvoy/McAvoy is because McEvoy and McAvoy is on the records I have found) ancestors were from Northern Ireland. My 2nd Great-Grandfather John McAvoy (signed marriage record as McAvoy) was born in Armagh.
Not to sure if you wanted to know some of my ancestors but did type just in case.

I would love to learn more about my haplogroup and any ancient DNA information about the haplogroup, and also any of the ancient skeletons that were DNA tested with the I haplogroup. I have been following the articles about NG10 from Newgrange. Also I just saw today that SRA62 is located on the YFull tree.

Hope to chat soon.

I just recently got my Big Y-700 results (surname = Callihan) which confirmed I'm on the I2 Isles Scotland/Ireland line: L126 -> S7753 -> Y4751 -> BY48168 -> Y31616. I have a McEvoy as a match (I-BY48168, 811498 shared variants). Y31616 is a direct branch of BY48168 (one step up). He lists Callaghan as an ancestral surname, as well as other surnames, Quinn and Byrne (I-Y139612 and I-Y63570, both offshoots from Y4751), with which I also match. So, we might very well be distant cousins.

If you haven't upgraded to the Big Y-700 test, it could nail down that BY48168 prediction and possibly supply you with a good number of Big Y matches (I've got 116 matches).