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kingjohn
14-07-20, 17:36
Early Medieval Genetic Data from Ural Region Evaluated in the Light of Archaeological Evidence of Ancient Hungarians
View ORCID ProfileVeronika Csaky, Daniel Gerber, Bea Szeifert, Balazs Egyed, Balazs Stegmar, Sergej Gennad'evich Botalov, Ivan Valer'evich Grudochko, Natalja Petrovna Matvejeva, Alexander Sergejevich Zelenkov, Anastasija Viktorovna Slepcova, Rimma D. Goldina, Andrey V. Danich, Balazs G. Mende, Attila Turk, View ORCID ProfileAnna Szecsenyi-Nagy
doi: https://doi.org/10.1101/2020.07.13.200154
This article is a preprint and has not been certified by peer review [what does this mean?].
AbstractInfo/HistoryMetrics Preview PDF
Abstract
The ancient Hungarians originated from the Ural region of Russia, and migrated through the Middle-Volga region and the Eastern European steppe into the Carpathian Basin during the 9th century AD. Their Homeland was probably in the southern Trans-Ural region, where the Kushnarenkovo culture disseminated. In the Cis-Ural region Lomovatovo and Nevolino cultures are archaeologically related to ancient Hungarians. In this study we describe maternal and paternal lineages of 36 individuals from these regions and nine Hungarian Conquest period individuals from today's Hungary, as well as shallow shotgun genome data from the Trans-Uralic Uyelgi cemetery. We point out the genetic continuity between the three chronological horizons of Uyelgi cemetery, which was a burial place of a rather endogamous population. Using phylogenetic and population genetic analyses we demonstrate the genetic connection between Trans-, Cis-Ural and the Carpathian Basin on various levels. The analyses of this new Uralic dataset fill a gap of population genetic research of Eurasia, and reshape the conclusions previously drawn from 10-11th century ancient mitogenomes and Y-chromosomes from Hungary.

Y haplogroups: 🤔
83%N
5% G2
5%j2
5%r1b

Palermo Trapani
14-07-20, 18:02
KingJohn: The article is using academic jargon a working paper. The authors probably are putting it out there to get comments from other academicians/scholars on their paper. Given the inability for the authors to go to another University and present their work to other faculty/researchers and the inability to go to a research conference to present it, this is a way for them to get feedback. Once it has been peer reviewed by the Journal where the want to publish the paper, and only then, will it get published in a research journal. In pretty much every academic field, the author(s) sent their paper to a Journal, the Editor/Editors of the journal then send the paper out to reviewers who know the field and they give the author(s) comments, suggestions, and yes critical review of the paper, and it is incumbent on the author(s) to respond to all the reviewers suggestions in a satisfactory manner. If the reviewers think the author(s) have done so, they make a recommendation to the The Editor/Editors of the journal and the Editor/Editors accept the paper for publication, or maybe reject it.

Hope this helps, I probably gave you more information than you wanted.

kingjohn
15-07-20, 16:30
source: pdf page 4-5:

Primary observations 45 high coverage mitochondrial genomes were obtained (sequencing depth from 8.71× to155 154.03×), with mean coverage of 71.16× and an average contamination rate of 0,2%. The new dataset consists of the mixture of nine macrohaplogroups (A, C, D, H, T, U, N, R, Z) (Fig. 3a). Haplogroups of presumably west Eurasian origin are represented by U (U2e1, U3a1, U4a1d, U4b1a1a1, U4d2, U5a1a1, U5b2a1a1, N=12), H (H1b2, H3b, H40b, N=9), N (N1a1a1a1a,159 N=5) and T (T1a1, T1a2, T2b4h, N=5), although phylogeographic analyses show eastern origin for some of them, see Table1 and Supplementary Figs. S4a-s. Eastern Eurasian lineages are represented by A (A+152+16362, A12a, N=4), C (C4a1a6, C4a2a1, N=6), D (D4j, D4j2, N=2), along with R11b1b and Z1a1a by one individual each (Fig. 3a). Even though that the Hungarian conquerors were selected based on mtDNA HVRI matches with certain ancient individuals from the Ural region, they have not proved to be identical on whole mitogenome level, but remained phylogenetically close to the associated samples (see Supplementary Figs. S4a-s). A few mitochondrial lineage relations connect Trans-Ural and Cis-Ural regions: e.g. samples from Uyelgi and Sukhoy Log clustered together in one main branch of the A+152+16362 haplogroup tree (Supplementary Fig. S4b), furthermore samples from Uyelgi and Bartym (with haplogroup U4d2) are located on the same main branch as well (Supplementary Fig. S4p). The sole investigated sample from Brody cemetery with haplogroup D4j2 neither show close maternal genetic connection to other Uralic samples nor to Hungarian conquerors. In contrast to the mitochondrial lineages, the Y-chromosomal gene pool based on STR and/or SNP data show homogenous composition in our dataset: 83.3% is N-M46, 5.5% G2a (G176 L1266), 5.5% J2 and 5.5% is R1b of the typed male individuals (Supplementary Table S2). 13 male samples out of 19 from Uyelgi cemetery carry Y-haplogroup N with various DNA preservation-dependent subhaplogroup classifications, while in the Cis-Ural we detected three N-M46 Y-haplogroups (samples from Brody, Bartym and Bayanovo cemeteries). The overall poor preservation of further Cis-Uralic samples from Sukhoy Log and Bartym disabled further Y-chromosome-based analyses (Supplementary Table S2).

Ygorcs
16-07-20, 07:14
If this was really a Proto-Hungarian or at least a closely related Ugric population, then it seems the Hungarian conquerors were basically foreigners who assimilated the Ugric language of a tiny elite that somehow managed to conquer them or to unify them under a common tribal confederation, something like that. AFAIK N1a was not a major haplogroup in the Hungarian Conqueror DNA samples at all, was it? Anyway, this seems to strengthen the N1/Uralic expansion link (again), and Carlos Quiles will probably have to be even more imaginative and convoluted in his analyses to keep his infamous "CWC R1a Uralic" hypothesis.

kingjohn
16-07-20, 15:35
i do believe most of the invading magyars belonged to y haplogroup N
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-44272-6




Four 10th century skeletons from well documented cemeteries in Hungary of ancient Magyar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magyar_tribes) individuals were sampled.[68] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarians#cite_note-csanyi-69) Two of the four males belonged to Y-DNA Haplogroup N (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_N-M231) confirming their Uralic origin.

source:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2008.00440.x

ratchet_fan
16-07-20, 17:28
If this was really a Proto-Hungarian or at least a closely related Ugric population, then it seems the Hungarian conquerors were basically foreigners who assimilated the Ugric language of a tiny elite that somehow managed to conquer them or to unify them under a common tribal confederation, something like that. AFAIK N1a was not a major haplogroup in the Hungarian Conqueror DNA samples at all, was it? Anyway, this seems to strengthen the N1/Uralic expansion link (again), and Carlos Quiles will probably have to be even more imaginative and convoluted in his analyses to keep his infamous "CWC R1a Uralic" hypothesis.

There is some R1b in this sample though. Somebody should troll that loser by arguing that R1b was the true Uralic Haplogroup in this sample and the N guys just adopted Uralic language from them.

kingjohn
16-07-20, 17:50
I see people like to go down
On carlos including davidski...
Whatever
Look:
https://www.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=362af77c6ad145c8a4a5026a9177b945
Thats a lot of work i still give him
Kudos :good_job:

Ygorcs
16-07-20, 21:54
There is some R1b in this sample though. Somebody should troll that loser by arguing that R1b was the true Uralic Haplogroup in this sample and the N guys just adopted Uralic language from them.

Indeed. I never understood his rationale: he claims not all Uralic-speaking populations have higher than very minor N1 haplogroup lineages and the majority have a significant CWC-like ancestry (which may actually be an artifact of a somewhat similar genetic history, not direct descent, at least not for the most part), while some IE-speaking populations (right those who happen to live beside Uralics) have lots of N1; but at the same time he seems to consider it irrelevant that the vast majority of R1a is found in IE-speaking populations and correlates a lot with the "eastern" side of the IE span, while R1a is not found in very high proportions in many Uralic-speaking populations. So, percentages only matter when it's convenient. To explain that he developed a certain "Bell Beaker-ized CWC" leading to Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian peoples, but if that were so we'd expect to find a strong Uralic substrate in those branches (not the opposite, a strong Indo-European and especially Indo-Iranian adstrate in Uralic languages), as well as Uralic toponymy and hydronomy west of the Baltic zone.

Ygorcs
16-07-20, 22:09
i do believe most of the invading magyars belonged to y haplogroup N
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-44272-6




Four 10th century skeletons from well documented cemeteries in Hungary of ancient Magyar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magyar_tribes) individuals were sampled.[68] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarians#cite_note-csanyi-69) Two of the four males belonged to Y-DNA Haplogroup N (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_N-M231) confirming their Uralic origin.

source:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2008.00440.x

Sorry, my bad. I confused that with the autosomal results, which were very Scythian/Central Asian-like, not more Uralic-like Northeastern European. The Magyar case is really rare: a conqueror population that managed to attain cultural, linguistic and dominance for centuries and centuries, but left very little genetic impact even on Y-DNA haplogroups.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12520-019-00996-0#:~:text=The%20presence%20of%20the%20N3a,a%20sign ificant%20portion%20spoke%20Hungarian.

We used Y-STR and SNP analyses on male Hungarian Conqueror remains to determine the genetic source, composition of tribes, and kin of ancient Hungarians. The 19 male individuals paternally belong to 16 independent haplotypes and 7 haplogroups (C2, G2a, I2, J1, N3a, R1a, and R1b). The presence of the N3a haplogroup is interesting because it rarely appears among modern Hungarians (unlike in other Finno-Ugric-speaking peoples) but was found in 37.5% of the Hungarian Conquerors. This suggests that a part of the ancient Hungarians was of Ugric descent and that a significant portion spoke Hungarian. We compared our results with public databases and discovered that the Hungarian Conquerors originated from three distant territories of the Eurasian steppes, where different ethnicities joined them: Lake Baikal-Altai Mountains (Huns/Turkic peoples), Western Siberia-Southern Urals (Finno-Ugric peoples), and the Black Sea-Northern Caucasus (Caucasian and Eastern European peoples). As such, the ancient Hungarians conquered their homeland as an alliance of tribes, and they were the genetic relatives of Asiatic Huns.

This other study had very different results: it indicates few N lineages (let alone specifically N1c or N1a) in the Hungarian Conqueror samples they analyzed. Proportionally the Avar Period samples had more (was there maybe any grain of truth in the Magyar chronicles claiming they were descendants of Huns? Only not of Huns properly, but of earlier nomadic steppe conquerors of Pannonia they saw as closely related to their own ancestors?). Maybe the Y-DNA makeup varied a lot between tribes. SEE PICTURE: https://imgur.com/a/OgwGPqv
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-53105-5

Still, as a whole, it seems those medieval Hungarian conquerors were already very far from their ancestors if we consider geographically proximate Uralic-speaking ethnicities to the assumed Magyar homeland. The fact Hungarian is packed with Turkic loanwords and perhaps even some Turkic grammatical influence (some speculate), even very ancient ones, suggests to me a long interaction and perhaps even a significant partial origin in early Turkic tribes that adopted the Hungarian language.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-53105-5

Our recent analysis of conquering Hungarian (hence shortened as Conqueror) mitogenomes revealed that the origin of their maternal lineages can be traced back to distant parts of the Eurasian steppe10 (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-53105-5#ref-CR10). One third of the maternal lineages were derived from Central-Inner Asia and their most probable ultimate sources were the Asian Scythians and Asian Huns, while the majority of the lineages most likely originated from the Bronze Age Potapovka-Poltavka-Srubnaya cultures of the Pontic-Caspian steppe. Population genetic analysis indicated that Conquerors had closest connection to the Onogur-Bulgar ancestors of Volga Tatars.

kingjohn
16-07-20, 22:51
Indeed a clasical elite dominance
But surprisingly almost with no sign
In the y chromosomes of modern hungarians,
What is fascinating why these N magyars
Chose bella the r1a-z93 as there king...:thinking:


P.s
Nethaniahu is also r1a-z93:thinking:

ratchet_fan
16-07-20, 23:21
Indeed a clasical elite dominance
But surprisingly almost with no sign
In the y chromosomes of modern hungarians,
What is fascinating why these N magyars
Chose bella the r1a-z93 as there king...:thinking:
P.s
Nethaniahu is also r1a-z93:thinking:

Lol. His lineage is Iranian?

kingjohn
17-07-20, 00:04
Yes,
he is still close to bella
And he his aryan
I will bring the certifcate😅
P.s
I don' t like him but he is extremely talented person
Have to admitt

kingjohn
26-07-20, 16:51
by the way i look in list of ancient
dna remains
there is one branch of mtdna h3 that was found in the steppe
and could be indo-european
h3g

I0421
Srubnaya
H3g
Spiridonovka II, Samara River, Samara
1850-1600 BCE

source:


Mathieson et al. 2015. Genome-wide patterns of selection in 230 ancient Eurasians. Nature, 528(7583), 499-503.



p.s
there is also cases in kazakhstan bronze age but need to find this paper

ok found the h3g from kazakhstan :smile:

I4787
mtDNA: H3g
Middle-Late Bronze Age, 1600-1196 calBCE

source:
https://science.sciencemag.org/content/365/6457/eaat7487