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Maciamo
10-08-20, 14:53
No less than 90% of American homes have air conditioning. In Europe it's under 1% (except in Italy and Spain where its a bit over 10%). It's not because the United States has a hotter climate. It's really a cultural thing, and that partly explains why the average American produces nearly twice more greenhouse gas emissions than the average European.

https://www.economicshelp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/co2-emissions-per-capita.png

https://www.eupedia.com/images/CO2_per_capita.png

According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration, air conditioning accounts for about 12% of U.S. home energy expenditures (https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=36692). There are obviously regional differences in AC usage, but even in cold and very cold regions, which make up over half of the country, people think it necessary to have air conditioning.

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/images/2018.07.23/main.png

According to this website (https://www.warnerservice.com/shocking-air-conditioning-statistics), it's more common in U.S. homes to have an air conditioning unit than a dishwasher, garage, or dining room. All this has a impact on global warming. 100 million tons of carbon dioxide release into the air annually, which is about 2 tons per home, via air conditioners.

In fact, the U.S. uses more energy for air conditioning than all other nations combined.

The following article makes a few good points.

Washington Post: Europe to America: Your love of air-conditioning is stupid (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/07/22/europe-to-america-your-love-of-air-conditioning-is-stupid/)

"The weather in Washington, D.C., and Berlin, Germany, has been pretty similar recently. There is one striking difference between the two capitals, though: Whereas many Americans would probably never consider living or working in buildings without air conditioning, many Germans think that life without climate control is far superior.


The divide isn't limited to Berlin and D.C.: In fact, many Europeans visiting the U.S. frequently complain about the "freezing cold" temperatures inside buses or hotels. American tourists on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean, however, have been left stunned by Europeans' ability to cope with heat, even at work spaces or in their private homes."



[...]

"Whereas Americans prefer an average temperature of 70 degrees [21°C], Europeans would consider such temperatures as too cold, Michael Sivak from the University of Michigan says. "Americans tend to keep their thermostats at the same temperature all year around. In contrast, Europeans tend to set their thermostats higher in summer and lower in winter. Consequently, while indoors, Europeans wear sweaters in winter, while American wear sweaters in summer," Sivak told The Washington Post."

I had long wondered why in American movies and series set in southern California (mostly around L.A.) it is so common to see people wear sweaters and cardigans inside. In The Big Bang Theory, Raj always wears a t-shirt, a shirt, a sweater and a cardigan on top! Four layers ! In Los Angeles !

It's time that Americans re-think their lifestyle and habits and start acting less selfishly. I can completely understand why people in Florida or Louisiana need AC during hot and muggy summer months. But AC is not essential in dry climates. And it's definitely not necessary to set it so cold as to require to wear winter clothes indoor.

ratchet_fan
10-08-20, 14:59
No thanks. My air conditioner isn't going anywhere.

Maciamo
10-08-20, 15:27
No thanks. My air conditioner isn't going anywhere.

You don't seem to realise that the more people are going to use air conditioning, the hotter the Earth is going to be. It's a vicious cycle.

Maybe part of the problem is that a majority of Americans live in shitty wooden houses that keep the heat and humidity inside in summer, instead of proper, well insulated brick or stone houses that are warm in winter and cool in summer. According (https://continuingeducation.bnpmedia.com/courses/areditorial/lumber-by-the-numbers/#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20Western%20Wood,hom es%20are%20built%20with%20wood.) to the Western Wood Products Association, over 90 percent of American homes are built with wood. (The brick and mortar ones are mostly found in places like New York and Boston.)

The poor quality of American houses is explained here (https://dengarden.com/misc/American-Houses-and-Bad-Quality).

"One striking aspect of houses in America is the flimsy quality of even the most expensive ones. Houses are built literally like a house of cards. Weak beams, plywood, flimsy insulation, flimsy siding and roofing that either blows off in high winds or just rots away after a few years. Its really no wonder that come tornado or hurricane and houses are literally ripped off of their foundations and tossed into the air.

In contrast, houses and most buildings in Europe are much sturdier, being built with stone or cinder blocks or brick for the whole wall and inside walls. This is true for new houses and apartment blocks as well as old buildings. This is the reason we see buildings hundreds of years old still standing in good shape. In the US a 50 year old house is considered old and is torn down to make room for another flimsy yet expensive structure."

One of the greatest mysteries about the USA for me is why in one of the richest countries in the world in terms of GDP per capita people live in such shoddy houses that fly away during hurricanes, are washed away by floods, are broken when a car runs into them, and of course get uncomfortably muggy in summer without AC. :useless:

Salento
10-08-20, 15:42
Many houses are made of wood and at times it gets way too hot in the summer

... even without power I managed to run an Air-Conditioner at home 2 - 3 hours at day (credit to my Jeep) and other things.

but I also used small solar panels for smaller charges.

i should get my power back today :)


https://i.imgur.com/LqbqRfg.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/3Z3YAL2.jpg

Flann Fina
10-08-20, 16:41
I can definitely see your point but as someone who lives in Florida, I’m not going to give up my air conditioning. However, I can also say that my carbon footprint is approximately 42% of what the average American’s is. Falling slightly under the numbers listed for Sweden above. Coincidentally, I was born and raised in New York and we never had any air conditioning when I was growing up. I think I was in my teens before my parents got a window unit for their bedroom. When I moved out on my own, I eventually got a window unit for my apartment, so that I would have one room air conditioned in the summer. Most of the houses in NY were not built with central air conditioning in those days. Nor were any of the apartments I lived in. The only time I’ve had central air conditioning, is when I retired and moved to Florida 12 years ago.

Archetype0ne
10-08-20, 17:07
Many houses are made of wood and at times it gets way too hot in the summer

... even without power I managed to run an Air-Conditioner at home 2 - 3 hours at day (credit to my Jeep) and other things.

but I also used small solar panels for smaller charges.

i should get my power back today :)


https://i.imgur.com/LqbqRfg.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/3Z3YAL2.jpg

Is that your Italian or American ingenuity kicking in? :)
Hope you get your power ASAP.

Salento
10-08-20, 18:02
Is that your Italian or American ingenuity kicking in? :)
Hope you get your power ASAP.

it’s not that difficult, all you need is a high wattage Power-Inverter hooked up to the Battery of a running car :)

that one is 3000 watts - and now we made a Generator!

Angela
10-08-20, 19:41
There is no way the average summer temperatures of Europe, especially Northern Europe, approach the average summer temperatures of places like Florida, Louisiana, Texas, with the high humidity to boot, or the dry heat of the southwest, the deserts, even the summers of the Great Plains. I used to rent my condo on the west coast of Florida to Brits and Germans and if there was the slightest hitch with the air conditioning they went mental. You can’t use average figures for the whole US. We’re continent sized with continent type variations in climate. The demands are only going to get worse as more and more Americans move to what we call the Sun Belt.I don’t get this thing about all wood houses either. In Florida and the southwest it’s all concrete and plaster.As for me I’ve been in my block and brick house without power and thus air conditioning since last Tuesday . I feel like I’ve been living in one of Dante’s circles of hell. At times my husband thought I was going to go postal. :) I cannot BEAR this kind of heat and humidity. Only periodic breaks sitting in the car got me through but the nights have been horrible. In my next house I’ve already contracted for a generator that Switches on automatically when the main power goes off. Never again. This is the fourth time this has happened to me since Ive lived on the island and it’s going to be my last. If the codes permit I’ll put in some solar panels though.

Maciamo
10-08-20, 20:16
There is no way the average summer temperatures of Europe, especially Northern Europe, approach the average summer temperatures of places like Florida, Louisiana, Texas, with the high humidity to boot, or the dry heat of the southwest, the deserts, even the summers of the Great Plains. I used to rent my condo on the west coast of Florida to Brits and Germans and if there was the slightest hitch with the air conditioning they went mental. You can’t use average figures for the whole US. We’re continent sized with continent type variations in climate. The demands are only going to get worse as more and more Americans move to what we call the Sun Belt.I don’t get this thing about all wood houses either. In Florida and the southwest it’s all concrete and plaster.As for me I’ve been in my block and brick house without power and thus air conditioning since last Tuesday . I feel like I’ve been living in one of Dante’s circles of hell. At times my husband thought I was going to go postal. :) I cannot BEAR this kind of heat and humidity. Only periodic breaks sitting in the car got me through but the nights have been horrible. In my next house I’ve already contracted for a generator that Switches on automatically when the main power goes off. Never again. This is the fourth time this has happened to me since Ive lived on the island and it’s going to be my last. If the codes permit I’ll put in some solar panels though.

There is no way this is what I said. I explicitly wrote that I understood the need for air conditioning in places like Florida and Louisiana, but not in northern states. As for northern Europe being cool, that was true 20 years ago, but no longer. For the last 10 years there has been heatwaves with temperatures between 30 and 38°C (86 and 100°F) in Britain, Belgium, the Netherlands, Germany, Poland... There is one right now. We have had 35-36°C (95-97°F) every day for the last 6 days and it's going to last 3 more days before cooling a bit to 30°C the back up again. This week it seems that only the Deep South states between Florida and Texas and the Mexican border are as hot in the US. 90% of the US is in fact cooler.

I have been to Florida in summer and it's pretty much the same as in Japan in summer. The difference is that the Japanese use the air conditioning sparingly at home, just one room at a time and not all day long.

The only places where AC may be needed during hot summer days is at work or in cars.

The issue with air conditioning is not just the electric consumption. Otherwise the solution would be simple. Get all your electricity from clean renewables like solar or wind. The real problem is the HFCs (hydrofluorocarbons), which are super greenhouse gases and they remain in the atmosphere for up to 29 years. HFC are 1,430 times more damaging to the climate than carbon dioxide per unit of mass. Fortunately HFCs are being phased out in new AC units, but there are still plenty of older units on the market.

Air conditioning curbs could save years' worth of emissions (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jul/17/air-conditioning-curbs-could-save-years-worth-of-emissions-study)

"Up to eight years’ worth of global greenhouse gas emissions could be prevented over the next four decades by setting tougher standards for air conditioning, according to a study.

It found that improving the energy efficiency of cooling systems by using climate-friendly refrigerants could remove emissions equivalent to between 210bn and 460bn tonnes of carbon dioxide by 2060.

The peer-reviewed analysis by the United Nations Environment Programme (Unep) and the International Energy (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/energy) Agency (IEA) found that cutting the use of climate-warming refrigerants such as hydrofluorocarbons (HFCs) alone could help avoid up to 0.4C of global warming by the end of the century."


According (https://energyair.com/average-lifespan-air-conditioner/) to the US Department of Energy, the average lifespan of an air conditioning unit is about 15 to 20 years, so even with new HFC-free models, the harm is going to continue for quite a while.

Salento
10-08-20, 21:47
My Power is Green, it comes from a Nuclear Power Plant in my State (Zero Carbon Emission).

I’m in the Northeast and right now it is 96°F / 35.5°C

It can get really hot in the summer around here!

Angela
10-08-20, 23:05
Today it’s 95 plus even here and it’s by far not the first time. Florida is the tropics. I’d never buy a new condo down there without central air conditioning. Even with it I never went down in July, August, September. I can’t even imagine what it’s like in most of Texas or the southwest without air conditioning. 116 degrees and up is nothing for Arizona.

Anybody who tries to take away their air conditioning has a fight on his hands. Heck, I won’t give up mine either.

No way I’ll ever give up my air conditioning.

Flann Fina
10-08-20, 23:52
Maciamo:


The issue with air conditioning is not just the electric consumption. Otherwise the solution would be simple. Get all your electricity from clean renewables like solar or wind. The real problem is the HFCs (hydrofluorocarbons), which are super greenhouse gases and they remain in the atmosphere for up to 29 years. HFC are 1,430 times more damaging to the climate than carbon dioxide per unit of mass. Fortunately HFCs are being phased out in new AC units, but there are still plenty of older units on the market.

[…]


"Up to eight years’ worth of global greenhouse gas emissions could be prevented over the next four decades by setting tougher standards for air conditioning, according to a study.


It found that improving the energy efficiency of cooling systems by using climate-friendly refrigerants could remove emissions equivalent to between 210bn and 460bn tonnes of carbon dioxide by 2060.


The peer-reviewed analysis by the United Nations Environment Programme (Unep) and the International Energy Agency (IEA)
ound that cutting the use of climate-warming refrigerants such as hydrofluorocarbons (HFCs) alone could help avoid up to 0.4C of global warming by the end of the century."




According to the US Department of Energy, the average lifespan of an air conditioning unit is about 15 to 20 years, so even with new HFC-free models, the harm is going to continue for quite a while.



Personally, I think setting the new standards is the best solution. Unfortunately, in the United States, the States have been forced to take the lead. Which is certainly the least efficient way to approach the problem. Hopefully, things will change and a more comprehensive effort will be put in place.



Excerpts from: These States Are Not So Chill About Air Conditioners’ HFCs.
Stateline Article April 22, 2019 by Alayna Alvarez.
Pew Charitable Trusts


As summer scorchers draw closer, more Americans will be cranking up their air conditioners, desperate for swaths of cool air.


But the comfort comes with an environmental cost — one a growing number of states are trying to reduce by phasing out the use of hydrofluorocarbons, or HFCs.

HFCs, which are used as refrigerants in air conditioners, refrigerators and insulating foams, are even worse than carbon dioxide — up to several thousand times worse — in trapping heat in the atmosphere. That makes them a major contributor to climate change.


California led the way last year when it passed a law limiting HFCs, and Washington state is expected to pass a similar bill this year. The laws place prohibitions on the manufacture and sale of HFCs and mandate the use of cleaner alternatives, with low global warming potential (GWP), which already exist. Most states are focusing first on large, commercial refrigeration units such as those that cool supermarkets and office buildings.


There are hundreds of examples of HFC-free air-conditioning and refrigeration technologies already available today, according to the Environmental Investigation Agency, a nonprofit advocacy group based in Washington, D.C. Now lawmakers and industry leaders in states such as Connecticut, Maryland, New York, Vermont and Washington are looking to follow suit.


The states are seeking to fill a regulatory void left by the Trump administration, which for two years has held off on submitting a 2017 international treaty to the Senate for ratification. The Kigali Amendment, as it’s known, has been ratified by more than 60 countries.

Under the amendment, countries commit to cutting down production and consumption of HFCs by more than 80% over the next 30 years.


The Alliance for Responsible Atmospheric Policy, a coalition of manufacturers, businesses and trade associations who make and use HFCs, supports the Kigali Amendment. It’s good for job growth, strengthening U.S. exports and positioning U.S. technology at the forefront of innovation, according to the alliance’s 2018 economic analysis jointly released with the Air-Conditioning, Heating, and Refrigeration Institute. But the group worries that a patchwork of state regulations could make it more difficult for industry to comply.


“Obviously one federal action is better than a bunch of states trying to figure out how they go about doing this,” said Kevin Fay, executive director of the Alliance for Responsible Atmospheric Policy. “I think the states are now figuring out that it’s pretty complicated.”


[…]


Improving refrigerants used in air conditioners could do more than anything else to reduce greenhouse gases, according to Project Drawdown, a think tank that created a top 100 list of the most effective ways to combat climate change using existing solutions.

“I hope it’s a matter of when [national regulation is put in place], and not if,” said David Abel, a researcher at the University of Wisconsin-Madison who focuses on energy systems, air pollution and public health. “It really has to be, if we’re going to avoid some of this really catastrophic damage.” ……

Flann Fina
10-08-20, 23:59
My apologies for the disjointed presentation above. I was having problems submitting it because of all the links imbedded in Maciamo’s post.

Salento
11-08-20, 00:12
I’ll continue to keep my AC on whenever I think it's necessary!

11-08-20, 01:00
I’ll continue to keep my AC on whenever I think it's necessary!

I live in San Diego, it's not necessary (nor the heat). I haven't turned either unit on in 20 years . . . I wouldn't bet that either one works.

Salento
11-08-20, 02:11
I live in San Diego, it's not necessary (nor the heat). I haven't turned either unit on in 20 years . . . I wouldn't bet that either one works.

I’m used to having 4 seasons, but I can see the benefits of living in a milder mid 70°s F year round climate.

The planet and the dolphins should thank you for having such a small carbon impact :)

Maciamo
11-08-20, 11:10
Today it’s 95 plus even here and it’s by far not the first time.

The point of the discussion is that Americans are claiming that summers are hotter in the USA than in Europe. You also claimed that:


There is no way the average summer temperatures of Europe, especially Northern Europe, approach the average summer temperatures of places like Florida

So let's compare the actual situation now. The heat wave in Northwestern Europe just passed, so it would have been more remarkable one week ago when it was above 35 degrees ever day.

https://www.eupedia.com/images/weather-aug-2020.png


What we see is that major northern European cities are in fact as hot or slightly hotter this summer than even Miami in southern Florida. In the last few summers there has been very little difference in temperatures between cities in southern England, the Benelux, northern France and Germany and cities in southern France, Italy, Spain, Portugal or Greece. In fact it is considerably hotter in the north than in Lisbon (https://www.meteoblue.com/en/weather/week/lisbon_portugal_2267057) at the moment. That would have been unthinkable 20 or 30 years ago.

The main difference with Florida is the humidity, which keep the temperatures high at night, but also prevent the heat from climbing too high.

The reason why Europeans can more easily bear this summer heat is that houses with thick brick or stone walls keep cooler inside. As you know, in Italy traditional architecture has made use of very high ceilings (like in palazzi) to keep rooms cool in summer (as the heat goes up and accumulates in the upper portion of rooms). In most Mediterranean countries houses are built of stone because people have learned over the millennia that it keeps the inside much cooler in summer. Why don't Americans do the same?

It's been 35°C in the shade (over 40°C in the sun) for a week here, but inside my house (which doesn't have very thick walls, but is well insulated) it's 26°C in north facing rooms and 28°C in south facing rooms. In average that 7°C (15°F) cooler than outside, without air conditioning.

Angela
11-08-20, 13:59
Sorry, Maciamo, but one can’t look at one day or base an analysis on a particular heat wave, even if they’re getting more frequent.

I just looked up the data for Brussels and Munich since it was inland. The warm season in both cases is said to be 3.3 months with an “average” “daily” high of 67 degrees.

The warm season for most of the southern US is said to be 4.5 months. I’d say closer to 5 months but whatever.

The average daily high in that period in Florida including Northern Florida is 90 degrees. The average daily high in Phoenix is 107 degrees.

There is no comparison.

As for building materials, houses built 100 years ago were built with the building materials available locally. Not a lot of bricks available in the Mississippi Delta. In the last decades, as I said, homes in Florida, the southwest, are concrete and plaster.

I’m all for making air conditioners more environmentally friendly but nobody in the southern states especially is going to get rid of them.

Anfänger
11-08-20, 16:33
My prediction: Europeans are going to get more air conditioners too. The summers are getting hotter and longer in Germany and many of my friends complain about the hot nights when they want to sleep and they are thinking about getting air conditioners.

German newspaper articles about sales record for air conditioners in 2018:

https://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article180838122/Klimaanlagen-Ein-Geraet-zur-Abkuehlung-muss-her.html (https://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article180838122/Klimaanlagen-Ein-Geraet-zur-Abkuehlung-muss-her.html)

https://www.welt.de/newsticker/dpa_nt/infoline_nt/wirtschaft_nt/article180921946/Rekordsommer-fuer-Klimageraete-Hersteller.html

Switzerland air conditioner sales from 2009-2019:
https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/459606/umfrage/absatz-von-klimageraeten-in-der-schweiz/

Sales are 47% up from 2018 to 2019 alone.

bigsnake49
11-08-20, 17:06
I live in San Diego, it's not necessary (nor the heat). I haven't turned either unit on in 20 years . . . I wouldn't bet that either one works.

It really depends on where you live in San Diego. La Jolla, Mission Valley, Eastern SD? I bet you if you lived-in the dessert part of the Metro area you will need air-conditioning. Same with the San Fran area: San Fran proper vs Oakland Hills vs Livermore. Lots of microclimates.

11-08-20, 23:22
It really depends on where you live in San Diego. La Jolla, Mission Valley, Eastern SD? I bet you if you lived-in the dessert part of the Metro area you will need air-conditioning. Same with the San Fran area: San Fran proper vs Oakland Hills vs Livermore. Lots of microclimates.

bigsnake, you're not wrong.

The beaches here are always cool, but who can afford to live there?

On the other hand, El Cajon and Santee are furnaces, which is why I don't live there.

I live in-between, in the foothills. It does get hot here in the late summer, August-September. Then it can, on some days, get to 100 degrees F, though it's rarely humid. But, if you manage the sun with deep eaves, patio covers, and shutters, and keep windows and doors open for the breeze, it's nice enough for nothing more than a fan.

To the other discussions above, while I wouldn't consider living in Texas or Florida without air conditioning, I think many Americans could do with a lot less a/c (i.e. my neighbors here).

Maciamo
12-08-20, 14:04
Sorry, Maciamo, but one can’t look at one day or base an analysis on a particular heat wave, even if they’re getting more frequent.

I just looked up the data for Brussels and Munich since it was inland. The warm season in both cases is said to be 3.3 months with an “average” “daily” high of 67 degrees.

The problem is that these averages are based on several decades and do not reflect the strong increase in temperatures in the last few years. A typical summer in Belgium used to be in the range of 15 to 25 degrees C, with exceptionally a few days with 30 degrees. Now even spring is hotter than than. Now summer is 20 to 35 degrees - easily 5 degrees above what used to be normal.



The average daily high in Phoenix is 107 degrees.

And how is Phoenix representative of the whole USA, or even the average?


There is no comparison.

Do you mean with cities like New York, Washington, Chicago, Seattle or San Francisco? Agreed. Phoenix is really in a category of its own.


As for building materials, houses built 100 years ago were built with the building materials available locally. Not a lot of bricks available in the Mississippi Delta.

Bricks can be made almost anywhere. Even if the local clay isn't good enough bricks can be imported from other parts of the country. Even Neolithic people imported the huge stones of Stonehenge from Wales. Don't tell me that with modern transportation bricks can't be brought anywhere in the US. Anyway it sounds like an excuse since 90% of American houses are made of wood, not brick. It's not an issue specific to the Mississippi delta.


In the last decades, as I said, homes in Florida, the southwest, are concrete and plaster.

Like in Japan, and that's even worse than wood as concrete heats up quickly and keeps the humidity inside. It's probably the worst choice of material for a region like Florida. What they need is big stones that stay cool in the heat.


I’m all for making air conditioners more environmentally friendly but nobody in the southern states especially is going to get rid of them.

It would already be a big help if people in northern states stopped using them. South States (from North Carolina to Arizona) only represent one third of the US population.

bigsnake49
12-08-20, 14:53
bigsnake, you're not wrong.

The beaches here are always cool, but who can afford to live there?

On the other hand, El Cajon and Santee are furnaces, which is why I don't live there.

I live in-between, in the foothills. It does get hot here in the late summer, August-September. Then it can, on some days, get to 100 degrees F, though it's rarely humid. But, if you manage the sun with deep eaves, patio covers, and shutters, and keep windows and doors open for the breeze, it's nice enough for nothing more than a fan.

To the other discussions above, while I wouldn't consider living in Texas or Florida without air conditioning, I think many Americans could do with a lot less a/c (i.e. my neighbors here).

Newer houses in Florida are much better insulated than in the past. Texas houses from what I remember when I lived there were not but that was a while ago so building practices could have changed for the better. Now Florida in the summer is not livable without air-conditioning. I set my air-conditioning during the day at 79F and turn on the fans. No way I could sleep without turning it down to 74F.
I do agree that with better building/shading practices we could reduce but not eliminate air-conditioning. We could also invest in solar roofs/battery units. There are vast parking lots in Southern States that can be covered with solar that will also provide shade for the cars below and possible protect them from hail as well. If not covered with solar panels then use a lighter color coating. There was an effort in the 70s to whiten/lighten the dark tile roofs since they absorb a lot heat. Light colored roofing will help keep attics cooler.

For me transportation has not been tapped yet to reduce not only our carbon dependence but also the pollution and noise. You could start with delivery trucks from UPS/Fedex than can be recharged at night their depots, then commercial trucks for electricians/plumbers etc. While you're at it, reduce the number of long haul trucks on the roads by utilizing rail transportation which is a lot more efficient than trucking. There are a number of companies that are working on long haul electric trucks.

Salento
12-08-20, 16:10
It’s counterintuitive, but some say (me) :) :

Lighter colors deflect the sun ray and heat back in the environment - BAD

Dark colors absorb sunlight rays and heat, but they stay confined - Better

To fight our personal heat a white house or a white car are better for us, though it increases Global Warming / Climate Change.

A darker house or car retains the sun ray and heat, and in hot days we'll feel even warmer, but it’s better for the Planet because the heat stay localized.

bigsnake49
12-08-20, 19:33
It’s counterintuitive, but some say (me) :) :

Lighter colors deflect the sun ray and heat back in the environment - BAD

Dark colors absorb sunlight rays and heat, but they stay confined - Better

To fight our personal heat a white house or a white car are better for us, though it increases Global Warming / Climate Change.

A darker house or car retains the sun ray and heat, and in hot days we'll feel even warmer, but it’s better for the Planet because the heat stay localized.

Not true, a white or reflective roof reflects as much as 80% (white) and 90% (aluminum) back into space, lowering the albedo (reflectivity) of the whole planet. Not to mention that it keeps the roof temperature about 10% above free air temperature. On a 100F day, it keeps the roof itself at about 110F where as dark asphalt roof shingles can reach as much as 180F. Now if you're up north where heating and not air-conditioning is the problem then you want dark roof shingles to absorb as much heat as possible during the winter.

Salento
12-08-20, 20:07
Not true, a white or reflective roof reflects as much as 80% (white) and 90% (aluminum) back into space, lowering the albedo (reflectivity) of the whole planet. Not to mention that it keeps the roof temperature about 10% above free air temperature. On a 100F day, it keeps the roof itself at about 110F where as dark asphalt roof shingles can reach as much as 180F. Now if you're up north where heating and not air-conditioning is the problem then you want dark roof shingles to absorb as much heat as possible during the winter.

Not True! Most of the deflected heat is not going into Space: Greenhouse Effect and Atmospheric Pressure :)

... besides that, you agreed with what I said, you made my point, thank you!

Coriolan
12-08-20, 21:32
Not True! Most of the deflected heat is not going into Space: Greenhouse Effect and Atmospheric Pressure :)

... besides that, you agreed with what I said, you made my point, thank you!I'm not sure if he is going back to space or not. But even if it is not shouldn't change anything for the Earth temperature if it is absorbed by the dark paint or going back into the atmosphere. So white painting is always better. If the heat is reflected back into space, that's a plus. If it's trapped into the Earth's atmosphere, at least it cools down buildings and requires less air conditioning.

Angela
12-08-20, 22:42
The problem is that these averages are based on several decades and do not reflect the strong increase in temperatures in the last few years. A typical summer in Belgium used to be in the range of 15 to 25 degrees C, with exceptionally a few days with 30 degrees. Now even spring is hotter than than. Now summer is 20 to 35 degrees - easily 5 degrees above what used to be normal.




And how is Phoenix representative of the whole USA, or even the average?



Do you mean with cities like New York, Washington, Chicago, Seattle or San Francisco? Agreed. Phoenix is really in a category of its own.



Bricks can be made almost anywhere. Even if the local clay isn't good enough bricks can be imported from other parts of the country. Even Neolithic people imported the huge stones of Stonehenge from Wales. Don't tell me that with modern transportation bricks can't be brought anywhere in the US. Anyway it sounds like an excuse since 90% of American houses are made of wood, not brick. It's not an issue specific to the Mississippi delta.



Like in Japan, and that's even worse than wood as concrete heats up quickly and keeps the humidity inside. It's probably the worst choice of material for a region like Florida. What they need is big stones that stay cool in the heat.



It would already be a big help if people in northern states stopped using them. South States (from North Carolina to Arizona) only represent one third of the US population.

The sunbelt represents 1/3 of the population now, but they are the fastest growing region. At even 1/3 it represents over 100 million people.


Predicted growth rates.
https://66.media.tumblr.com/67e6874bb5e1bac0cb52da6d4b634bf2/tumblr_n6b84hUZ0W1rasnq9o1_500.png


Phoenix is just an example of the weather of Nevada, Arizona, etc, the desert southwest.

Maybe it's better to visualize the entire country so it's easier to see how different it is from northwest and northern Europe.

https://whatsanswer.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Average-High-Temperature-of-the-US-May.jpg
https://whatsanswer.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Average-High-Temperature-of-the-US-June.jpg

https://whatsanswer.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Average-High-Temperature-of-the-US-July.jpg

https://dsx.weather.com/util/image/map/Average_High_Aug_1280x720.jpg?v=ap&w=1280&h=720&api=7db9fe61-7414-47b5-9871-e17d87b8b6a0

weatherspark.com provides high and low temperatures (and averages) by year and month for numerous European locations. Munich in July in 2018 had an average high in the low seventies, and mid seventies in August. There were individual very hot days, but those are the averages, and it seemed about the same in 2019.

A large majority of the U.S. has a climate in summer much hotter than northwestern and western Europe, and much of it has winters much colder. Some, like the midwest, are both hotter and colder in the respective seasons. Western Europe really benefits from the Gulf Stream.
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=8KJdIYNi&id=B342E2BE43911581BEAEC02A960BF71AE4B86A86&thid=OIP.8KJdIYNiqFFWgFkjs-7fnwHaEK&mediaurl=https%3a%2f%2fwhatsanswer.com%2fwp-content%2fuploads%2f2018%2f02%2fAverage-High-Temperature-of-the-US-June.jpg&exph=720&expw=1280&q=average+daily+high+temp+by+state+in+US.&simid=608021215755767341&ck=3A01CEAA5729D8ED2371292AC5DBB641&selectedIndex=12&FORM=IRPRST&ajaxhist=0
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=8KJdIYNi&id=B342E2BE43911581BEAEC02A960BF71AE4B86A86&thid=OIP.8KJdIYNiqFFWgFkjs-7fnwHaEK&mediaurl=https%3a%2f%2fwhatsanswer.com%2fwp-content%2fuploads%2f2018%2f02%2fAverage-High-Temperature-of-the-US-June.jpg&exph=720&expw=1280&q=average+daily+high+temp+by+state+in+US.&simid=608021215755767341&ck=3A01CEAA5729D8ED2371292AC5DBB641&selectedIndex=12&FORM=IRPRST&ajaxhist=0

bigsnake49
12-08-20, 23:32
Not True! Most of the deflected heat is not going into Space: Greenhouse Effect and Atmospheric Pressure :)

... besides that, you agreed with what I said, you made my point, thank you!

No it does go back into space unless absorbed by dark particulates in the air such as soot. It has the same effect as snow or ice cover for northern/arctic climates. Climate scientists are freaking out about losing all the reflective effect of snow/ice in places like Northern Canada/ Alaska/Arctic Ocean/Greenland/Siberia and have it replaced by much darker sea water/grasses.

Salento
13-08-20, 01:49
No it does go back into space unless absorbed by dark particulates in the air such as soot. It has the same effect as snow or ice cover for northern/arctic climates. Climate scientists are freaking out about losing all the reflective effect of snow/ice in places like Northern Canada/ Alaska/Arctic Ocean/Greenland/Siberia and have it replaced by much darker sea water/grasses.

Blow your nose after spending a few hours outside in a City, (London too), ... soot is everywhere, ... more or less,
...another Greenhouse ‘Trapping’ Effect.

Salento
13-08-20, 02:34
I began this conversation by saying ‘Counterintuitive’ because the extra variables change or prevent what seems obvious and common knowledge from taking place.

Maciamo
16-08-20, 14:37
Let's close the discussion on regional variations of climate within the USA. I agree that the hot-dry and hot-humid regions of the south require air conditioning. That does not explain why over 85% of Americans living in regions described as cold or very cold feel the need to have air conditioning (as opposed to 1% in regions with a similar climate in Europe). That's even more than in the mixed-dry/hot-dry parts of the US like West Texas, southern New Mexico and Arizona, where "only" 78% of homes have AC.

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/images/2017.05.22/main.png


The bottom line is that Americans should think twice before turning on their AC when it's not absolutely necessary. High July/August temperatures in the 70°F (21-26°C) like in New England, Michigan or Washington state are comfortable and do not necessitate AC. Temperatures in the 80°F (26-31°C) outside should be perfectly bearable without AC inside in a well insulated home that remains a few degrees cooler than outside.

But perhaps the most important is to opt for newer models of air conditioners using R290 instead of HFCs (https://www.welbilt.us/News/Enews-Article/2016/April/Why-R290) or HCFCs. The refrigerant gas using HCFCs is known as R22, while those using HFCs are called R-410A, R-32, and R-134. Their Global warming potential (GWP) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming_potential) are respectively 1810, 2088, 675 and 1430. R22 also depletes the ozone layer. The only environmentally friendly refrigerants are R290 and R600A, which have a GWP of only 3! (source (https://www.kitchenarena.in/r32-vs-r410a-vs-r290-vs-r22/))

Maciamo
18-08-20, 09:39
Yesterday The Guardian published an article explaining how the UK has become so hot in summer that people are considering air conditioning for the first time in their life.

Considering air con? That’s how much the UK’s climate has changed already (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/aug/17/considering-air-con-how-much-uk-climate-has-changed-already#)

"I don’t think I had a single conversation about air conditioning until 2005, when a burst of August weather that we would now consider a respite felt like the mouth of hell.

Sitting in a pub living some Smiths lyrics (gasping, dying, but somehow still alive), a lugubrious friend who took delight only from grim irony said: “If this carries on – which it will, because it’s not a freak event – everyone will want air conditioning, which will only make climate change worse. (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/aug/29/the-air-conditioning-trap-how-cold-air-is-heating-the-world)” I said: “Don’t be ridiculous; this is freak weather, not British weather. Nobody will want air conditioning, because it’s an Americanism, culturally anathema, like Halloween.” Fifteen years later, air con is all anyone talks about. I may also have been wrong about Halloween."

Archetype0ne
18-08-20, 09:42
Yesterday The Guardian published an article explaining how the UK has become so hot in summer that people are considering air conditioning for the first time in their life.

Considering air con? That’s how much the UK’s climate has changed already (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/aug/17/considering-air-con-how-much-uk-climate-has-changed-already#)

"I don’t think I had a single conversation about air conditioning until 2005, when a burst of August weather that we would now consider a respite felt like the mouth of hell.

Sitting in a pub living some Smiths lyrics (gasping, dying, but somehow still alive), a lugubrious friend who took delight only from grim irony said: “If this carries on – which it will, because it’s not a freak event – everyone will want air conditioning, which will only make climate change worse. (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/aug/29/the-air-conditioning-trap-how-cold-air-is-heating-the-world)” I said: “Don’t be ridiculous; this is freak weather, not British weather. Nobody will want air conditioning, because it’s an Americanism, culturally anathema, like Halloween.” Fifteen years later, air con is all anyone talks about. I may also have been wrong about Halloween."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53788018

'Highest temperature on Earth' as Death Valley, US hits 54.4C
17 August 2020What could be the highest temperature ever reliably recorded on Earth - 130F (54.4C) - may have been reached in Death Valley National Park, California.

nordicwarrior
29-08-20, 17:56
I'll give up my A/C when you give up your heating system.

We are a little bit warmer over hear on average and you are a little cooler over there, so I guess it's even trade, yes?

elghund
29-08-20, 18:22
Norway, Sweden and Iceland may not need their air conditioners. In Texas and Georgia, they do. Africa and India's populations are exploding, and as their economy improves, they are going to want air conditioners. I say let them beat the heat. Why put the HVAC guys out of work to boot? This doomsday global warming bs is highly political and propagandized. I believe a lot of doomsayers just want to control other people. I just want control my room temp.

elghund
29-08-20, 18:26
I'll give up my A/C when you give up your heating system.

We are a little bit warmer over hear on average and you are a little cooler over there, so I guess it's even trade, yes?

Touche.

Quit burning that wood and coal. Quit using that electric heat. Quit eating, consuming, reproducing, and breathing. It's all good for the environment.

ratchet_fan
29-08-20, 19:29
Touche.

Quit burning that wood and coal. Quit using that electric heat. Quit eating, consuming, reproducing, and breathing. It's all good for the environment.

Europeans know what's best for Americans. They are sure it is comfortable in big cities without A/C. Also they know what's politically best for us. Its American stupidity that we don't see the beauty of open borders for Hispanics.

Yetos
30-08-20, 07:44
change your electrical system from 110 V to 250 V.

Maciamo
30-08-20, 14:51
I'll give up my A/C when you give up your heating system.

We are a little bit warmer over hear on average and you are a little cooler over there, so I guess it's even trade, yes?

Nordic Europeans use more energy per capita than other Europeans because they have higher heating consumption. But even so, their total energy consumption is lower than that of Americans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_energy_consumption_per_capita ) (except for Icelanders but they are really up north and have a tiny population of 360,000).

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/91/Energy_Use_per_Capita.png/550px-Energy_Use_per_Capita.png

https://www.solidarity-us.org/site/files/WorldMap_EnergyConsumptionPerCapita2010.jpg
This energy use represents the total of gas, petrol, coal, wood and electricity consumption in watts or in thermal unit equivalents. It does not take into consideration that air conditioners also emits greenhouse gases with 2000 times greater global warming potential than CO2 from burning gas, coal, wood or petrol.

In other words, even if the energy consumption was exactly the same for Europe and the USA, energy used for heating causes much, much less global warming than energy used for cooling (unless very new models of AC are used).

Maciamo
30-08-20, 15:14
Norway, Sweden and Iceland may not need their air conditioners. In Texas and Georgia, they do. Africa and India's populations are exploding, and as their economy improves, they are going to want air conditioners. I say let them beat the heat. Why put the HVAC guys out of work to boot? This doomsday global warming bs is highly political and propagandized. I believe a lot of doomsayers just want to control other people. I just want control my room temp.

Only 5% of Indian households have air conditioning (against 90% in the USA). The highest percentage of AC in Africa is in relatively well off South Africa, where it is only 6%. Elsewhere it is less than 1%.

Anyway, all new models of AC from this year (2020) must comply with the new international regulations (Kigali Amendment to the Montreal Protocol (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kigali_Accord)) banning the use of refrigerants with high global warming potential like R-22 (a type of HFC) and progressively phasing out completely the use of HFCs by 2030. So even if Africans and Indians suddenly decided to all get AC units, these would be new climate-friendlier models than cause approximately 800 times less global warming than the older HFCs used in most American air conditioners today.

Maciamo
30-08-20, 17:14
change your electrical system from 110 V to 250 V.

I had never thought about that, but you are right. I looked it up and according to this guy (https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/l0lac/american_voltage_vs_european_110v_vs_220v_are/) 220V is less wasteful. DC power conversion requires less heat at this voltage because there are fewer amps to do the same work. Not sure just how much difference we are talking about though. But it would be extremely costly to replace all electric cables and appliances in North America, Central America and Japan (the regions that use 100~120 V) to 220~240V, so I don't think it's worth the investment.

Duarte
30-08-20, 17:54
This is the air conditioning installed in the living room of my apartment. Fujitsu Inverter 220V ~ 60Hz 23,000 BTU / h. The bedrooms (4) are equipped with equipment of 8,000 BTU / h. I have no problems with the electricity bill. The building has solar energy capture plates and the KWh equivalent generated is deducted from the electricity bill by the energy distribution company.

https://i.imgur.com/efSSY6i.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/k9133xi.jpg

Jovialis
30-08-20, 17:57
For us, we suffer from seasonal and indoor allergies. Our HVAC system does help with it, because of the allergen filtration. I've noticed a big difference in the quality of my breathing, and in-turn sleeping.

Growing up, my family had an old steam heating system, and I would constantly get sinus infections.

Duarte
30-08-20, 19:03
This is the air conditioning installed in the living room of my apartment. Fujitsu Inverter 220V ~ 60Hz 23,000 BTU / h. The bedrooms (4) are equipped with equipment of 8,000 BTU / h. I have no problems with the electricity bill. The building has solar energy capture plates and the KWh equivalent generated is deducted from the electricity bill by the energy distribution company.

https://i.imgur.com/efSSY6i.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/k9133xi.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/9rWgS9e.jpg

nordicwarrior
31-08-20, 04:25
Maciamo, you're assuming that I've conceded that man-made global warming is a settled science. I have not.

Even if the planet is increasing in temperature, I'm not convinced the cause is related to man. Look at the size of the sun vs. how puny we are even on a global scale... a more likely cause is variation in the sun's output.

Frankly I would pay more attention to this issue if the green party types weren't obsessed with slapping a carbon tax on all of us. I see global warming... or I should say "climate change" now because it's a far fuzzier and inclusive term... as a way to generate a stable income for the lazy elites.

But I will agree a cautious approach is better than a reckless one. I think wind and solar energy production should be increased where possible in the event we are the cause, but if these carbon taxes keep coming up... you may lose me all together on this issue.

Obviously Nuclear isn't the solution-- it's too dirty because the half life of so much fuel-rod material extends into the thousands of years.

-------
-------

P.S. A somewhat related topic to climate change is the ozone damage caused by certain fluro-carbons... that is an area that I am in full agreement with the green types... I have worked with commercial grade refrigerants that were used in older systems and know how nasty some of that stuff can be. I can see that eating huge chunks of the ozone layer so I have no problem correcting this specific issue.

But having Europe lecture the U.S. on our energy consumption seems odd given the fact that we ship thousands (if not millions) of tons each year of pelletized timber material over there so you guys can burn it to stay warm. Not to mention all the natural gas we ship over. Plus the U.S. helped build at least one of the pipelines you all are now using to power your grid.

We (meaning the U.S.) do charge for this annual fuel supply (not to mention the labor and material needed for the pipeline I mentioned)… but we do it at greatly discounted rates because we don't want you guys to get too reliant on the Russian Empire. This stuff may not be free, but it's really really cheap compared to what the open market would allow.

I guess my point is the thread does seem a bit tone deaf given our numerous contributions made to our friends overseas.

Maciamo
31-08-20, 09:16
This is the air conditioning installed in the living room of my apartment. Fujitsu Inverter 220V ~ 60Hz 23,000 BTU / h. The bedrooms (4) are equipped with equipment of 8,000 BTU / h. I have no problems with the electricity bill. The building has solar energy capture plates and the KWh equivalent generated is deducted from the electricity bill by the energy distribution company.

https://i.imgur.com/efSSY6i.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/k9133xi.jpg

I looked up the specs (https://www.casasbahia.com.br/ar-condicionado-split-fujitsu-inverter-so-frio-high-wall-22000-btus-asba24jfc-mca/p/10950152) as your pictures did not show the type of refrigerant used. It turns out that it is R410a, the worst type of HFC, with a global warming potential of 2088 (https://www.kitchenarena.in/r32-vs-r410a-vs-r290-vs-r22/)(against 3 for new non-HFC models). Unbelievably Fujitsu mentions that R410a is an ecological gas because it does not deplete the ozone layer! Only R12 and R22 deplete the ozone layer, but R12 was banned worldwide in 1994 and R22 is already being phased out in the EU and USA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorodifluoromethane). So I am sorry to inform you that your AC units are not eco-friendly at all.

Maciamo
31-08-20, 09:27
For us, we suffer from seasonal and indoor allergies. Our HVAC system does help with it, because of the allergen filtration. I've noticed a big difference in the quality of my breathing, and in-turn sleeping.

Growing up, my family had an old steam heating system, and I would constantly get sinus infections.

Steam is terrible for the respiratory system. Even humidifiers tend to be full of flying bacteria.

For allergies we use air purifiers with carbon filter + HEPA filter (such as this one (https://smile.amazon.com/LEVOIT-Purifier-Home-Allergies-Pets/dp/B07VVK39F7/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=air+purifiers+with+carbon+filter+%2B+HEPA +filter&qid=1598858347&sr=8-4)). It's cheaper and does not use harmful refrigerant gases. What's more, I have learned while living in Japan that most air conditioners quickly get mouldy inside and spread mould spores in the air unless they are cleaned at least once a year (ideally by a specialised service). Moulds, and especially toxic black moulds (Aspergillus niger or Stachybotrys chartarum) found in AC, are some of the worst pathogens for health. The Satratoxin-H (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satratoxin-H) found in Stachybotrys chartarum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stachybotrys_chartarum) was even used as a chemical weapon by the USSR in their war in Afghanistan in the 1980s.

Maciamo
31-08-20, 09:53
But having Europe lecture the U.S. on our energy consumption seems odd given the fact that we ship thousands (if not millions) of tons each year of pelletized timber material over there so you guys can burn it to stay warm. Not to mention all the natural gas we ship over. Plus the U.S. helped build at least one of the pipelines you all are now using to power your grid.


Pellet fuel is not a very common way of heating houses in Belgium. I don't know anyone who uses that. Most people use central heating with a natural gas condensing boiler (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condensing_boiler) (98% thermal efficiency (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_efficiency)), which is less polluting and more energy efficient (https://blog.constellation.com/2017/02/24/gas-wood-fireplace-comparison/) than wood burning. According to this detailed report (https://epc.bioenergyeurope.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/FINAL-PELLET-MARKET-OVERVIEW-2017.pdf), wood pellets are mostly used in the UK and for electricity production rather than heating. It is Italians who use it the most for residential heating, followed by Americans (page 14).

Nevertheless Britain is constantly increasing its share of renewable energy, which reached 47% in early 2020 (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jun/25/renewable-energy-breaks-uk-record-in-first-quarter-of-2020), while coal burning accounted for a mere 3.8% of British electricity generation. Oil, wood pellets and others stood at 2.7%. As the UK is the biggest consumer of wood pellets in Europe, it means that in absolute terms wood pellets represents only a tiny percentage of energy generation in Europe.

The US is in a completely different league. Renewable energy stood at 11% (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_the_United_States) in the US in 2018, with petroleum generating 36% of electricity, natural gas 31% and coal 13%.

Combining all types of fuels, Americans produce about 50% CO2 per capita than the average European. The petrol consumption per capita (https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/articles/52/) is particularly high in the USA (about 400 to 500% more than Europeans).

Yetos
31-08-20, 11:08
pellet is not common also in Greece,
but in Central Makedonia is typical for villages and houses.
even the kernel of peaches and shellσ of nuts.
sometimes they are pressed with accacia glue or pine resin and some oil to briquette sizes.



https://alfa-therm.gr/Image/Content/system/%CF%80%CE%B5%CF%81%CE%B9%CE%B3%CF%81%CE%B1%CF%86%C E%B7-%CE%B1%CE%BD%CE%B1-%CE%BA%CE%B1%CF%84%CE%B7%CE%B3%CE%BF%CF%81%CE%B9%C E%B1/%CE%BA%CE%B1%CF%85%CF%83%CE%B9%CE%BC%CE%B1_637.png

Duarte
31-08-20, 14:44
I looked up he specs (https://www.casasbahia.com.br/ar-condicionado-split-fujitsu-inverter-so-frio-high-wall-22000-btus-asba24jfc-mca/p/10950152) as your pictures did not show the type of refrigerant used. It turns out that it is R410a, the worst type of HFC, with a global warming potential of 2088 (https://www.kitchenarena.in/r32-vs-r410a-vs-r290-vs-r22/)(against 3 for new non-HFC models). Unbelievably Fujitsu mentions that R410a is an ecological gas because it does not deplete the ozone layer! Only R12 and R22 deplete the ozone layer, but R12 was banned worldwide in 1994 and R22 is already being phased out in the EU and USA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorodifluoromethane). So I am sorry to inform you that your AC units are not eco-friendly at all.

Really, the installation manual in Portuguese says that the air conditioning unit uses a new HFC refrigerant (R410A).

https://www.fujitsu-general.com/global/products/erp-ecodesign/index.html

https://www.fujitsu-general.com/br/products/split/index.html


https://i.imgur.com/6tKE8DJ.jpg

Duarte
31-08-20, 22:41
Switching To R32 From R410A: Why Manufacturers Are Switching Refrigerants

What is an AC refrigerant and why is it used?

Air conditioning, refrigeration and freezing technology are all powered by refrigerant — a compound typically found in a fluid or gaseous state. A refrigerant works by absorbing heat from the environment, which combined with other components like compressors and evaporators to create cool air.
Air conditioners contain refrigerant inside inner copper coils, as the refrigerant absorbs heat from inside, it transitions from its state as a gas, to a liquid. This liquid is sent outside, where a fan blows hot air over the coils and exhausts to the outside.
From there, the refrigerant cools and turns back into a gas. A fan then blows air over the cooled coils, resulting in cool air being blown out of the unit and throughout your home. This cycle is repeated over and again during the cooling process.

Types of refrigerants in ACs

https://i.imgur.com/FWM5j8S.jpg

R12

Chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs), including R12, were refrigerants known to significantly contribute to the greenhouse gas effect. Production of units with R12 were ceased in 1994 due to regulation. Chlorofluorocarbons was one of the main reasons for the depletion in the ozone layer and the greenhouse gas effect.

R22

R22 is a Hydrochlorofluorocarbon (HCFCs) refrigerant that was slightly less environmentally damaging than R12, but wasmandated for phase out in the U.S. (https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2015-07/documents/phasing_out_hcfc_refrigerants_to_protect_the_ozone _layer.pdf) in 2010 due to the Clean Air Act. R22 is expected to be completely phased out by 2020.

R410A

R410A is a hydrofluorocarbon (HFCs) (https://www.britannica.com/science/hydrofluorocarbon)refrigerant, that was viewed as safer for the environment than R22. It has a GWP (Global Warming Potential) (https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/understanding-global-warming-potentials) of 2,090, meaning that if one kilogram is released into the atmosphere, it would have 2,090 times the impact of one kilogram of carbon. That being said, R410A has an ODP (Ozone Depletion Potential) (https://www.epa.gov/ozone-layer-protection/ozone-depleting-substances) of 0.

R32

R32 is also an HFC refrigerant that many air conditioning manufacturers are adopting for its performance in regards to the environment, energy consumption, efficiency and safety. Compared to R410A, R32 has a GWP of 675 — about 30% lower. Both refrigerants have an ODP of 0.

Why switch from R410A to R32?

R32 is quickly becoming the refrigerant of choice for many AC manufacturers. While there are many reasons for this switch, the main benefits of R32 are:


R32 has a GWP of 675, roughly 30% lower than that of R410A
R32 systems use up to 20% less refrigerant than R410A, making them more efficient and cost less to operate
Ozone Depletion Potential of 0
Easier to recycle than R410A, as R32 is a single component refrigerant


Is it possible to upgrade refrigerant in an existing unit?

Please note that it is not possible to transition an R410A refrigerant unit to an R32 unit. Refrigerants should only be handled by trained, qualified technicians. These experts can assist you in finding an R32 capable system.

FUJITSU - NEW PRODUCTS 2019 - AIR CONDITIONERS LINEUP (UK):

https://www.fujitsu-general.com/shared/pdf-fcuk-support-ctlg-3ef019-1901e-01.pdf

Equipment similar to mine, sold in the United States:

https://www.fujitsu-general.com/us/products/split/wall/asu24rlxfw1.html

Duarte
01-09-20, 02:11
The energy efficiency of a machine or machines systems cannot be measured by a single variable. The assembly of the equation that will calculate the energy efficiency (energy balance) has multiple variables. There are compensating factors. Just to illustrate, most likely a Hybrid car (combustion engine + electric engine), ‘Total Flex, (a combustion car engine that can use any fuel mixture containing gasoline and ethanol) driving in Brazil using 100% of ethanol, will have a much more favorable carbon balance than a similar 100% electric model driving in Europe. The Brazilian energetic matrix is ​​basically hydroelectric, wind and solar, unlike the European energy matrix. It could be different since we have oil and gas (we could burn everything in thermoelectric) and we have large reserves of uranium and we have mastered the entire uranium enrichment cycle to produce from fuel for nuclear power plants to atomic bombs (nobody wants that, of course, because its a stupidity) - in this case instead of hydroelectric plants, wind power plants and the transformation of the roofs of buildings in the country's cities in solar plants, we could spread nuclear power plants and thermoeletric that burn fossil fuels by the country, saving the Amazon from hydroelectric plants, because it seems that currently, there, is the only place in the country where they can be built. The Minister of the Environment of Bolsonaro, Ricardo Salles, who said that the ‘the better business is open the corral and release the cattle in the forest’ will be very happy with this and I will be obliged to support him because I do not want to be without energy in my house.

nordicwarrior
01-09-20, 04:33
Pellet fuel is not a very common way of heating houses in Belgium. I don't know anyone who uses that. Most people use central heating with a natural gas condensing boiler (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condensing_boiler) (98% thermal efficiency (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_efficiency)), which is less polluting and more energy efficient (https://blog.constellation.com/2017/02/24/gas-wood-fireplace-comparison/) than wood burning. According to this detailed report (https://epc.bioenergyeurope.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/FINAL-PELLET-MARKET-OVERVIEW-2017.pdf), wood pellets are mostly used in the UK and for electricity production rather than heating. It is Italians who use it the most for residential heating, followed by Americans (page 14).

Nevertheless Britain is constantly increasing its share of renewable energy, which reached 47% in early 2020 (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jun/25/renewable-energy-breaks-uk-record-in-first-quarter-of-2020), while coal burning accounted for a mere 3.8% of British electricity generation. Oil, wood pellets and others stood at 2.7%. As the UK is the biggest consumer of wood pellets in Europe, it means that in absolute terms wood pellets represents only a tiny percentage of energy generation in Europe.

The US is in a completely different league. Renewable energy stood at 11% (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_the_United_States) in the US in 2018, with petroleum generating 36% of electricity, natural gas 31% and coal 13%.

Combining all types of fuels, Americans produce about 50% CO2 per capita than the average European. The petrol consumption per capita (https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/articles/52/) is particularly high in the USA (about 400 to 500% more than Europeans).

I'm not great on computers so I can't post the link, but in 2018 the U.S. shipped seven million tons of bio-fuel (wood pellets) over to Europe where it was used primarily to fuel the grid. (Report was from N.P.R. and it can found by using search terms "bio-fuel"/Europe/U.S. export").

In your referenced report it says Europe is responsible for 80% of the world's consumption of pelletized biomass. I didn't specify usage per nation... only that Europe as a whole was using our bio-mass. Any way you slice it, that a lot of pellets.

Yes, the U.S. uses more energy per capita, but we are also more productive.

I stand by my original comment of I'll give up my A/C when you give up your heat. And I will also agree that ozone layer protection is massively important... so we need to focus on "ozone neutral" in all cooling systems, including those in automobiles.

Yetos
01-09-20, 06:37
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dc58ZrOuck

countries that consume energy per capita

USA
Canada
Arab peninsula
Norway
Singapore
Iceland


https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/per-capita-energy-use


some numbers kW/h

Qatar 198500
USA 79900
UK 32250

Maciamo
01-09-20, 11:37
https://i.imgur.com/FWM5j8S.jpg


But your AC still uses the bad R410A.

Fujitsu's figures completely miss the only two refrigerants that are climate-friendly: R290 and R600A. From this year these are the only types allowed in the European union. Even R32 is banned.




Refrigerant
Global Warming Potential
Ozone Depletion Potential


R 22
1810
Medium


R 410A
2088
Nil


R 32
675
Nil


R 134A
1430
Nil


R 290
3
Nil


R 600A
3
Nil

Maciamo
01-09-20, 11:44
Yes, the U.S. uses more energy per capita, but we are also more productive.

What does productivity have anything to do energy consumption? In developed countries, lower energy consumption is associated with more advanced technologies. Anyway, most European countries have a higher productivity than the USA according to the latest OECD data (https://data.oecd.org/lprdty/gdp-per-hour-worked.htm).


And I will also agree that ozone layer protection is massively important... so we need to focus on "ozone neutral" in all cooling systems, including automobiles.

Why do you think that protecting the ozone layer is more important that fighting global warming? That was an important issue in the 1980's, but measures have been taken and the holes in the ozone layer have since healed.

Duarte
01-09-20, 15:55
But your AC still uses the bad R410A.

Fujitsu's figures completely miss the only two refrigerants that are climate-friendly: R290 and R600A. From this year these are the only types allowed in the European union. Even R32 is banned.




Refrigerant
Global Warming Potential
Ozone Depletion Potential


R 22
1810
Medium


R 410A
2088
Nil


R 32
675
Nil


R 134A
1430
Nil


R 290
3
Nil


R 600A
3
Nil





Air conditioning refrigerant gases circulate in a closed (sealed) tube and cylinder system. The objective is that they do not leak, although leaks may occur during recharging and continuous use, where the refrigerant gas expands and contracts. We agree that the refrigerant gas circulates continuously in a sealed system and the leaks, which occur mainly at the time of recharging, which is annual, are insignificant for global warming when compared to the CO2 emitted by Europe, mainly in winter, burning the gas of the Putin, sent by Gazprom. However efficient the burning of natural gas is, the truth is that Europeans heat up in the winter by burning a fossil fuel whose result leaves tons of CO2 in the planet's atmosphere. The traces of R410A that may eventually inadvertently leak from a sealed air conditioning system are so insignificant that they are not even part of the statistics. This is ‘to play for the audience’. The EU should focus on the main cause. The air conditioning refrigerant gas was a concern when was the CFC, that destroyed the ozone layer. Now you bring up the greenhouse effect caused by HFC that leaks in minimal amounts when compared to the tons of CO2 that come from burning the natural gas (fossil) from Gazprom.

bigsnake49
01-09-20, 16:47
While natural gas is better than coal for global warming, there are major leaks of methane during the drilling, and transportation of the gas. Not to mention the burning of the fuel to produce electricity or heat. The most efficient way to take advantage of the fuel is by building heat and power plants (CHP) in which the waste heat from the production of electricity is used for heating instead of vented to the environment.
I personally think that most of the thermostats in the shops and businesses are set way too high during the day. You enter a business and the heat is suffocating. Yikes!!!

Maciamo
01-09-20, 17:04
While natural gas is better than coal for global warming, there are major leaks of methane during the drilling, and transportation of the gas. Not to mention the burning of the fuel to produce electricity or heat. The most efficient way to take advantage of the fuel is by building heat and power plants (CHP) in which the waste heat from the production of electricity is used for heating instead of vented to the environment.
I personally think that most of the thermostats in the shops and businesses are set way too high during the day. You enter a business and the heat is suffocating. Yikes!!!

That really depends a lot on the country. In Belgium it is normal to keep the thermostat on 20°C during the day and 16°C at night in winter. These are also the recommendations from the Ministry of Health. But I know that many people from warmer countries find these temperatures too cold. We try to dress the same way outside and inside (except for the coat) so as not to have to change clothes all the time, but also to save energy on heating.

Duarte
01-09-20, 19:43
R-290 Facts



Name:
R-290


Name - Scientific:
Propane


Name (2):
HC-290


Name (3):
CARE-40


Name (4)
R290


Classification:
Hydrocarbon Refrigerant


Chemistry:
C3H8 or CH3CH2CH3


Status:
Active & Growing


Future:
Will Be Used All Over The World


Application:
Supermarkets, Gas Stations, Vending/Ice Machines


Application (2):
Refrigerated Transport, Industrial Refrigeration, and Much More


Replacement For:
CFCs, HCFCs, and now HFCs


Ozone Depletion Potential:
0


Global Warming Potential:
3.3


Global Warming Risk:
Very Low


Toxicity Levels:
A (No Toxicity Identified.)


Flammability
Class 3 - Highly Flammable Levels


Lubricant Required:
MO, AB, POE


Boiling Point:
−42.25 to −42.04 °C; −44.05 to −43.67 °F; 230.90 to 231.11 K


Critical Temperature:
96.7 °C or 206.06 °F


Critical Pressure:
4,248 kpa


Auto ignition Temperature:
470 °C (878 °F; 743 K)


Flash Point
−104 °C (−155 °F; 169 K)


Molar Mass:
44.097 g·mol−1


Density:
2.0098 kg/m3 (at 0 °C, 101.3 kPa)


Melting Point:
−187.7 °C; −305.8 °F; 85.5 K


Vapor Pressure:
853.16 kPa (at 21.1 °C (70.0 °F))


Manufacturers:
Various Including: Honeywell, Chemours, Arkema, Mexichem, Chinese, etc.


Manufacturing Facilities:
All Over Including: USA, Mexico, EU, China, and others.


Form:
Gas


Color:
Colorless gas


Odor:
Odorless


EPA Certification Required:
No


Require Certification to Purchase?
No


Cylinder Color:
Unknown


Cylinder Sizes:
1 lb, 20 lb, 100 lb, 200 lb, 420 lb.


Purchasing:
CLICK FOR A QUOTE! (https://refrigeranthq.com/bulk-purchases/)

R-600a - The Facts




Name:
R-600a


Name - Scientific:
Isobutane


Name (2):
HC-600a


Name (3):
Care-10


Name (4)
R600a


Classification:
Hydrocarbon Refrigerant


Chemistry:
C4H10 or CH(CH3)2CH3


Status:
Active & Growing


Future:
Will Be Used All Over The World


Application:
Home Refrigerators & Freezers


Application (2):
Commercial Refrigerators & Freezers


Application (3):
Commercial Vending Machines & Plug-Ins


Application (4):
Industrial Refrigeration


Application (5):
Medium, High, &Very High Temperature


Replacement For:
CFCs, HCFCs, and now HFCs


Ozone Depletion Potential:
0


Global Warming Potential:
3


Global Warming Risk:
Very Low


Toxicity Levels:
A (No Toxicity Identified.)


Flammability
Class 3 - Highly Flammable Levels


Lubricant Required:
MO, AB, POE


Boiling Point:
−11.7 °C (10.9 °F; 261.4 K)


Critical Temperature:
134.7 °C or 274.46 °F


Critical Pressure:
3,640 kpa


Auto ignition Temperature:
460 °C (860 °F; 733 K)


Flash Point
−83 °C (−117 °F; 190 K)


Molar Mass:
58.124 g·mol−1


Density:
2.51 kg/m3 (at 15 °C, 100 kPa)


Density (2):
563 kg/m3 (at 15 °C, boiling liquid)


Melting Point:
−159.42 °C (−254.96 °F; 113.73 K)


Vapor Pressure:
3.1 atm (310 kPa) (at 21 °C (294 K; 70 °F))


Manufacturers:
Various Including: Honeywell, Chemours, Arkema, Mexichem, Chinese, etc.


Manufacturing Facilities:
All Over Including: USA, Mexico, EU, China, and others.


Form:
Gas


Color:
Colorless gas


Odor:
Odorless


EPA Certification Required:
No


Require Certification to Purchase?
No


Cylinder Color:
Unknown


Cylinder Sizes:
1 lb, 20 lb, 100 lb, 200 lb, 420 lb.


Purchasing:
CLICK FOR A QUOTE! (https://refrigeranthq.com/bulk-purchases/)


I think that is better to prevent something like that :thinking:


https://youtu.be/ruDbjZ8PewA

:sad-2:



EDIT: A mixture of propane + isobutane bottled in 13kg canisters is known in Brazil as Liquefied Petroleum Gas or, simply, cooking gas. This tope of gas cylinder is the most used by the small domestic consumer of kitchen gas in Brazil.

Yetos
01-09-20, 22:12
The truth and myths about methan-io


https://news-cdn.softpedia.com/images/news2/The-Largest-Architectonic-Buildings-in-Nature-2.jpg

this a termite nest,
have you any idea how much produces?
about 2-3 % of global methane emission is by termites.
does that mean we have to exterminate termites? in the name of global warming?

Natural gas is produced by bacteria and microwolrd, and usually traped under rock,
do we have any idea of how much is not traped, but goes straight to atmosphaere?
only human wastes from a city that are buried or through waste water released etc are about 1/3 of the city demanded power.
these are beans
https://madamelefo.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/7-_Legumes_W1812_gi659524906.jpg

have we any idea of the methane produced in our stomachs?
and by our domestic animals like pigs cows sheeps goats etc?

So I wonder what is better a CO2 gas
or a CH4 ->CH3 +H gas?

and how this energy would be 'controled'

bigsnake49
02-09-20, 00:19
The truth and myths about methan-io


https://news-cdn.softpedia.com/images/news2/The-Largest-Architectonic-Buildings-in-Nature-2.jpg

this a termite nest,
have you any idea how much produces?
about 2-3 % of global methane emission is by termites.
does that mean we have to exterminate termites? in the name of global warming?

Natural gas is produced by bacteria and microwolrd, and usually traped under rock,
do we have any idea of how much is not traped, but goes straight to atmosphaere?
only human wastes from a city that are buried or through waste water released etc are about 1/3 of the city demands
these are beans
https://madamelefo.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/7-_Legumes_W1812_gi659524906.jpg

have we any idea of the methane produced in our stomachs?
and by our domestic animals like pigs cows sheeps goats etc?

So I wonder what is better a CO2 gas
or a CH4 ->CH3 +H gas?

and how this energy would be 'controled'

No more pork or beef steaks for you (brizoles), Yetos! No more bean soup(fasolada) for you either.

Duarte
02-09-20, 00:50
But your AC still uses the bad R410A.

Fujitsu's figures completely miss the only two refrigerants that are climate-friendly: R290 and R600A. From this year these are the only types allowed in the European union. Even R32 is banned.




Refrigerant
Global Warming Potential
Ozone Depletion Potential


R 22
1810
Medium


R 410A
2088
Nil


R 32
675
Nil


R 134A
1430
Nil


R 290
3
Nil


R 600A
3
Nil





From not this year, but from 2025:



REGULATION (EU) No 517/2014 OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL
of 16 April 2014
on fluorinated greenhouse gases and repealing Regulation (EC) No 842/2006(Text with EEA relevance)
(...)

CHAPTER III
PLACING ON THE MARKET AND CONTROL OF USE

Article 11
Restrictions on the placing on the market
1. The placing on the market of products and equipment listed in Annex III, with an exemption for military equipment, shall be prohibited from the date specified in that Annex, differentiating, where applicable, according to the type or global warming potential of the fluorinated greenhouse gas contained.(...)


ANNEX III
PLACING ON THE MARKET PROHIBITIONS REFERRED TO IN ARTICLE 11(1)



Products and equipmentWhere relevant, the GWP of mixtures containing fluorinated greenhouse gases shall be calculated in accordance with Annex IV, as provided for in point 6 of Article 2


Date of prohibition





1.
Non-refillable containers for fluorinated greenhouse gases used to service, maintain or fill refrigeration, air-conditioning or heat-pump equipment, fire protection systems or switchgear, or for use as solvents



4 July 2007




2.
Non-confined direct evaporation systems that contain HFCs and PFCs as refrigerants



4 July 2007




3.
Fire protection equipment



that contain PFCs
4 July 2007


that contain HFC-23
1 January 2016




4.
Windows for domestic use that contain fluorinated greenhouse gases



4 July 2007




5.
Other windows that contain fluorinated greenhouse gases



4 July 2008




6.
Footwear that contains fluorinated greenhouse gases



4 July 2006




7.
Tyres that contain fluorinated greenhouse gases



4 July 2007




8.
One-component foams, except when required to meet national safety standards, that contain fluorinated greenhouse gases with GWP of 150 or more



4 July 2008




9.
Aerosol generators marketed and intended for sale to the general public for entertainment and decorative purposes, as listed in point 40 of Annex XVII to Regulation (EC) No 1907/2006, and signal horns, that contain HFCs with GWP of 150 or more



4 July 2009




10.
Domestic refrigerators and freezers that contain HFCs with GWP of 150 or more



1 January 2015




11.
Refrigerators and freezers for commercial use (hermetically sealed equipment)




that contain HFCs with GWP of 2 500 or more

1 January 2020


that contain HFCs with GWP of 150 or more
1 January 2022




12.
Stationary refrigeration equipment, that contains, or whose functioning relies upon, HFCs with GWP of 2 500 or more except equipment intended for application designed to cool products to temperatures below – 50 °C



1 January 2020




13.
Multipack centralised refrigeration systems for commercial use with a rated capacity of 40 kW or more that contain, or whose functioning relies upon, fluorinated greenhouse gases with GWP of 150 or more, except in the primary refrigerant circuit of cascade systems where fluorinated greenhouse gases with a GWP of less than 1 500 may be used



1 January 2022




14.
Movable room air-conditioning equipment (hermetically sealed equipment which is movable between rooms by the end user) that contain HFCs with GWP of 150 or more



1 January 2020




15.
Single split air-conditioning systems containing less than 3 kg of fluorinated greenhouse gases, that contain, or whose functioning relies upon, fluorinated greenhouse gases with GWP of 750 or more



1 January 2025




16.
Foams that contain HFCs with GWP of 150 or more except when required to meet national safety standards



Extruded polystyrene (XPS)
1 January 2020


Other foams
1 January 2023




17.
Technical aerosols that contain HFCs with GWP of 150 or more, except when required to meet national safety standards or when used for medical applications



1 January 2018



Source: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:OJ.L_.2014.150.01.0195.01.ENG


Edit: ...and there is not, yet, restrictions to R32 because its GWP < 750 , i.e, 675. Lucky of CEO of the Fujitsu General ;)

Duarte
03-09-20, 19:22
Examples of how complex are the relationships between energy production and storage technologies with the safety of energy consumers and producers and also with the environment. The planet is a closed system.

https://ec.europa.eu/environment/integration/research/newsalert/pdf/towards_the_battery_of_the_future_FB20_en.pdf

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/lithium-batteries-environment-impact

nordicwarrior
08-09-20, 01:37
What does productivity have anything to do energy consumption? In developed countries, lower energy consumption is associated with more advanced technologies. Anyway, most European countries have a higher productivity than the USA according to the latest OECD data (https://data.oecd.org/lprdty/gdp-per-hour-worked.htm).



Why do you think that protecting the ozone layer is more important that fighting global warming? That was an important issue in the 1980's, but measures have been taken and the holes in the ozone layer have since healed.

Are we talking about the European Union or individual countries? It seems to flip flop. The U.S. is the most productive economic nation in the world. It's not even close. China is number two, but they are catching up to us.

If we want to divide Europe by country to cherry-pick data points, I could easily divide the U.S. by state as a counter. For example, I'll put California's per capita productivity against any nation on Earth.

There are four nations on the planet that are both net exporters of energy and net exporters of food.

The U.S. is one of the four.

Yetos
08-09-20, 04:46
No more pork or beef steaks for you (brizoles), Yetos! No more bean soup(fasolada) for you either.

Indeed, until we find a method to gather and control this energy,



SAVE THE PLANET
DON'T EAT BEANS

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Maciamo
08-09-20, 09:24
Are we talking about the European Union or individual countries? It seems to flip flop. The U.S. is the most productive economic nation in the world. It's not even close. China is number two, but they are catching up to us.

If we want to divide Europe by country to cherry-pick data points, I could easily divide the U.S. by state as a counter. For example, I'll put California's per capita productivity against any nation on Earth.

There are four nations on the planet that are both net exporters of energy and net exporters of food.

The U.S. is one of the four.

You have no idea what productivity means, do you? You confuse productivity and GDP. Productivity is is a ration of GDP over a time period, for instance the GDP per hour worked. Countries where people work long hours, like the USA or Japan, tend to have lower productivity than those that work short hours and take lots of holidays to produce the same wealth. It may seem counter-intuitive, but if you compare 2 countries with equal GDP per capita, the country with higher unemployment is the more productive (as less workers produce the same GDP).

If you had checked the OECD data I linked you could have answered your own question about the productivity in the EU vs individual countries. The GDP per hour worked in 2018 in the EU was 108.2 USD, while in the USA it was 104.7 USD.

China's GDP per hour worked is very low, around 10 USD.

I have had enough of people like you who have no idea what they are talking about. I am going to get rid of people who keep wasting my time with inanities.

capita
07-10-20, 09:15
Air conditioners can contribute to the development of sick building syndrome in certain rooms and in a variety of conditions. People in an infected room may experience dizziness, dry throat, itchy eyes, and nausea.


Studies conducted by the Journal of Occupational and Environmental Medicine have found that forced air conditioning with split systems, window and central air conditioning, much more often provokes symptomatic health problems, which is rare in natural ventilation of buildings.