PDA

View Full Version : Maternal Lineages of 10th to 11th century Carpathians.



Angela
28-01-21, 15:53
See:
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.01.26.428268v1.full.pdf

"Maternal lineages from 10-11th century commoner cemeteries of theCarpathian Basin"

"Abstract:Background: Nomadic groups of conquering Hungarians played a predominant role in Hungarian prehistory, butgenetic data are available only from the immigrant elite strata. Most of the 10-11th century remains in the CarpathianBasin belong to common people, whose origin and relation to the immigrant elite has been widely debated.Methods: Mitogenome sequences were determined from 202 individuals with Next Generation Sequencing combinedwith hybridization capture. Median Joining networks were used for phylogenetic analysis. The commoner populationwas compared to 87 ancient Eurasian populations with sequence based (Fst) and haplogroup based population geneticmethods.Results: Haplogroup composition of the commoner population markedly differs from the elite and in contrast to theelite, commoners cluster with European populations. Besides, detectable sub-haplogroup sharing indicates admixturebetween the elite and commoners.Conclusions: Majority of the 10-11th century commoners most likely represent local populations of the CarpathianBasin, which admixed with the eastern immigrant groups including conquering Hungarians."

"The ratio of east Eurasian major-Hgs inthe commoners is 7.69% contrary to the 19.64% of the elite, besides the elite contains a broad spectrum of these; A, B, C,D, F, G, and Y, while only C and D occur with notable frequencies in the commoners, with single appearance of B.West Eurasian Hgs of ConqC and ConqE also show notable differences: Hgs HV, I, M, R, U1, U8 and W occurwith moderate frequencies in commoners, while these are completely absent from the elite. Three Hgs N, T1 and X,typically widespread both in east and west Eurasia, show much higher ratio in the elite than in commoners: N 11.61% inelite, 3.85% in commoners; T1 11.61% in elite, 2.75% in commoners; X 4.46% in elite and 0.55% in commoners. Theopposite is true for Hgs H and T2; among commoners H is the most prevalent Hg with 33.52% frequency, while in theelite group its proportion is significantly lower 19.64%; T2 has 6.59% proportion in the commoners and 1.79% in theelite."

https://i.imgur.com/n3y0xdQ.png


So, the elites were completely absorbed?

kingjohn
28-01-21, 19:14
some of the commoner mtdna type look mongolid to me though ...

u4c1
t2e
u8b1a1
u4b1a3a
j1c2j
u3a1b
u4a1a
u5a1d2b
h6a1b
h5
u4a2
u4a2
v7a
t2e
u3b2a
H+ 16291
D4m2a
j1c2j
u5a2a1
N1a1a1a1a
N1a1a1a1a
D4i2
v7a
u5a1c2a1
h5a1
k1a1b1
h1u2
k1a1a
h1c
h5b
C5b1a
u8b1b1
u8a1a1
u2e1b1
hv1a1a
i5a2+16086
u5b1b1a
k2b2


v7a
h6a1a
t2e7
h5e1a
h5a
h3h
N1b1a3
h1b
u4a
h13a2c1
h10a
u1a1a+16129
t1a1b
C4a2a1
h1u2
i
h5a1n
t1b3
h1j
h
r1a
u5b1b2
N1a1a1a1a
h10e
h11a7
D4h4a
N1b1a2
h11a2
u5b1b
h4a1a1a
t1a1
u5a1a1
h1a7
t1a1
t1a
v7a
hv4c
u4a1
h10e
N1a1a1a1a
M1b2
i1a1a
N1a1a1a1a
N1a1a1a1a
u4a2
h102
k1a+ 150
N1a1a1a1a
h
h
u4a1c
h1c
h2a1
h3h
k1a4a1
h10e
h3h6
k1a4c1
i1a1a3
t1a4
t1a1
u5a1d2b
i4a
C4b
t2b4a
N1a1a1a1a
h13a2b2
u5a2a1b
u5a1b1
h6a1a
x2f
u4a2
h13a2b2
h1c2
D5a3a1
t2b+152
h4a1a1a
u5a2b1c
u3b3
u5b1b1+ 16192
h1q
M1a1b1
u5a1a1h
u5a1a1h
k1c1
j2b1c
v6
h1a1
C4a2c
t2d2
u2e1b
k1a2
D4e4
v6
h13a2b2a
h16a1
u5b1d1
j2a2e
v7a
u2e1
v13
h14a
h1aj
u5b2b
h4a1a1a
j2b1a
h1aj
hv15
w5
w3a1a
h1c
h11
D4b1
w3a1
t2b
u5a1a1a
h3
u5a2b
j2a1a1a
D4j+16311
u5a1+16192
w3a1
h7
h3
h7a1
D4b1
t2b
B5b4
u8b1b
j1c5
t2c1d1
h1a1c
h6b
h6a1b3
h6a1a4
N9a9
h47a
h47a
h1ak1
t2b+ 152
h48
h13a2c1
h4a1c1a
h
u2e1a1
h
hv10
D4e4
j2a2a2
t2b31
h10a1
k1a4i
h
u5a1b1c2
A16
j1c3g
u5a1d2b
j1c2
h17a1
h5e1a
u4a2
h13a2b2a
h4a1
h11a

Angela
28-01-21, 21:32
In the original post you can find the following:

""The ratio of east Eurasian major-Hgs inthe commoners is 7.69% contrary to the 19.64% of the elite, besides the elite contains a broad spectrum of these; A, B, C,D, F, G, and Y, while only C and D occur with notable frequencies in the commoners, with single appearance of B."

Also,

"Three Hgs N, T1 and X,typically widespread both in east and west Eurasia, show much higher ratio in the elite than in commoners: N 11.61% inelite, 3.85% in commoners; T1 11.61% in elite, 2.75% in commoners; X 4.46% in elite and 0.55% in commoners. "

So, there was clearly admixture. The elites picked up local mtdna as well as the reverse. I got the impression that modern percentages are lower even than this for East Eurasian mtdna, and also for lineages which span both Western and Eastern Eurasia. So, what happened? Were there just not enough of them? Or, did Hungary get flooded with Germanic migrations later on which further diluted the mix.

kingjohn
29-01-21, 09:52
To me it looks like (the 8% mongolid mtdna even in commoners)
That there were some woman in
The magyar force :thinking:
That is very cool:cool-v:


P.s
Or it arrived with earlier movements avar, huns

Riverman
29-01-21, 13:28
In the original post you can find the following:

""The ratio of east Eurasian major-Hgs inthe commoners is 7.69% contrary to the 19.64% of the elite, besides the elite contains a broad spectrum of these; A, B, C,D, F, G, and Y, while only C and D occur with notable frequencies in the commoners, with single appearance of B."

Also,

"Three Hgs N, T1 and X,typically widespread both in east and west Eurasia, show much higher ratio in the elite than in commoners: N 11.61% inelite, 3.85% in commoners; T1 11.61% in elite, 2.75% in commoners; X 4.46% in elite and 0.55% in commoners. "

So, there was clearly admixture. The elites picked up local mtdna as well as the reverse. I got the impression that modern percentages are lower even than this for East Eurasian mtdna, and also for lineages which span both Western and Eastern Eurasia. So, what happened? Were there just not enough of them? Or, did Hungary get flooded with Germanic migrations later on which further diluted the mix.

Not just German, but also other Western European and especially Slavic people settled in the Hungarian kingdom. Additionally, a large portion of the Hungarians were practically annihilated in a succession of catastrophies which occured to them, most notably the Mongol and Ottoman invasions.
Concerning the West vs. East Asian split, not all West Eurasian came with non-Hungarian people, not all East Eurasian from Hungarian people. There are two facts to consider:
1st the Magyars themselves were a complex mix with different ethnic ingredients. They might have had Turkic, Germanic and Iranian admixture already in the Etelkz.

2nd the pre-Magyar inhabitents of the Pannonian sphere had East Asian admixture already, especially from the Huns and Avars.

As a possible 3rd factor, the Magyar rule was divided by tribes and clans it seems to me, so in different regions the representatives of the Magyar alliance could have been different, like more Uralic here, more Iranian-Germanic there, again more Turkic in a nother region. So I would also check for spacial differentiations.

In any case the simple equation of West Eurasian = local and East Eurasian = brought by Magyars might not work out all the time. Some of the lineages in common between West and East Eurasia might be Iranian-related more than anything.

Duarte
29-01-21, 19:00
To me it looks like (the 8% mongolid mtdna even in commoners)
That there were some woman in
The magyar force :thinking:
That is very cool:cool-v:
P.s
Or it arrived with earlier movements avar, huns

Maybe this paper can help to understand something more:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-53105-5

Y-chromosome haplogroups from Hun, Avar and conquering Hungarian period nomadic people of the Carpathian Basin



Endre Neparáczki,
Zoltán Maróti,
[…]
Tibor TörökScientific Reports (https://www.nature.com/srep) volume 9, Article number: 16569 (2019)Cite this article (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-53105-5#citeas)

20k Accesses
8 Citations
33 Altmetric
Metrics details (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-53105-5/metrics)



Abstract

Hun, Avar and conquering Hungarian nomadic groups arrived to the Carpathian Basin from the Eurasian Steppes and significantly influenced its political and ethnical landscape, however their origin remains largely unknown. In order to shed light on the genetic affinity of above groups we have determined Y chromosomal haplogroups and autosomal loci, suitable to predict biogeographic ancestry, from 49 individuals, supposed to represent the power/military elit. Haplogroups from the Hun-age are consistent with Xiongnu ancestry of European Huns. Most of the Avar-age individuals carry east Eurasian Y haplogroups typical for modern north-eastern Siberian and Buryat populations and their autosomal loci indicate mostly un-admixed Asian characteristics. In contrast the conquering Hungarians seem to be a recently assembled population incorporating un-admixed European, Asian as well as admixed components. Their heterogeneous paternal and maternal lineages indicate similar supposed phylogeographic origin of males and females, derived from Central-Inner Asian and European Pontic Steppe sources.

https://i.imgur.com/UyvcvyV.jpg




https://i.imgur.com/hYsDmq2.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/e0bSdaM.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/1TZm4yu.jpg

Angela
30-01-21, 00:13
Thanks, Duarte. Much clearer picture based on actual data.

stardust
15-03-21, 09:59
The conquering part is exaggerated - the usual need for a glorious past. There were just a few, small battles, and most of the locals were left to their own. The new hungarian state was possible due to existing local establishments and trough marriage alliances with the local ruling families.
The conquerors are estimated to have been around 25k strong. The local population of Pannonia & Carpathian basin at the time was quite big, in the millions.
It was just a migration, like the ones before that brought those asian genes in the area.

kingjohn
22-01-22, 07:18
Whole genome analysis sheds light on the genetic origin of Huns, Avars and conquering Hungarians

Zoltan Maroti, View ORCID Profile (http://orcid.org/0000-0003-3466-0368)Endre Neparaczki, Oszkar Schutz, Kitti Maar, Gergelyx I. B. Varga, Bence Kovacs, Tibor Kalmar, Emil Nyerki, Istvan Nagy, Dora Latinovics, Balazs Tihanyi, Antonia Marcsik, Gyorgy Palfi, Zsolt Bernert, Zsolt Gallina, Ciprian Horvath, Sandor Varga, Laszlo Kolto, Istvan Rasko, Peter L. Nagy, Csilla Balogh, Albert Zink, Frank Maixner, Anders Gotherstrom, Robert George, Csaba Szalontai, Gergely Szenthe, Erwin Gall, Attila P. Kiss, Zsofia Racz, Bence Gulyas, Bernadett Ny. Kovacsoczy, Szilard Sandor Gaal, Peter Tomka, Tibor Torok

Abstract

Huns, Avars and conquering Hungarians were Migration Period nomadic groups which arrived in three successive waves in the Carpathian Basin between the 5th and 9th centuries. Based on historical data each of these groups are thought to have arrived from Asia, although their exact origin and relation to other ancient and modern populations has been debated. In this study we have sequenced 9 Hun, 143 Avar and 113 Hungarian conquest period samples, and identified three core populations, representing immigrants from each period, with no recent European ancestry. Our results suggest that this immigrant core of both Huns and Avars originated in present day Mongolia, and their origin can be traced back to Xiongnus. On the other hand, the immigrant core of the conquering Hungarians derived from an earlier admixture of Mansis, early Sarmatians and descendants of late Xiongnus. In addition, we detected shared Hun-related ancestry in numerous Avar and Hungarian conquest period genetic outliers indicating a genetic link between these successive nomadic groups. Aside from the immigrant core groups we identified that the majority of the individuals from each period were local residents, harboring native European ancestry.







source:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.01.19.476915v1



p.s
e-v13 cases posted by kelmendasi user from anthrogenica :good_job:

E-V13 samples:

1) ALTper442; Middle-Late Avar (670-750 CE); E-PF2211 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/)

2) KKper541; Late Avar (seventh century CE); E-PF2211 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/)

3) KKper251; Late Avar (seventh century CE); E-Z21363 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L241/)

4) SZKTper70; Late Avar (700-830 CE); E-Z21357 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L241/)

5) PLEper23; Merged Conquering Hungarian and Commoner (tenth century CE); E-FGC11451 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC11451/)

6) SZKTper265; Late Avar (eighth century CE); E-B409 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC11457/)

7) SZKper130; Late Avar (700-750 CE); E-A10158 (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/E;name=E-A10158)

8) TCSper18; Conquering Hungarian Elite (tenth century CE); E-BY6245 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY6245/)

9) SSDper144; Middle Avar (670-710 CE); E-BY5023 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY5022/)

10) KKper252; Late Avar (seventh century CE); E-Z36885

11) PVper12; Late Avar (700-750 CE); E-Z5016 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z5016/)

12) TMHper199; Late Avar (700-760 CE); E-Z5016 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z5016/)

13) SZODper829; Early Avar (620-660 CE); E-CTS6377 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-CTS6377/)

14) OBTper51; Late Avar (700-750 CE); E-CTS9320 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-CTS9320/)

15) SHper182; Conquering Hungarian Commoner (tenth century CE); E-CTS9320 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-CTS9320/)

16) OBTper106; Late Avar (eighth century CE); E-A10955 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY4529*/)

17) ALTper369; Late Avar (710-750 CE); E-Z42778 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z17293/)


i have to admitt
the 1 D case is mindblowing
because the sample was large enough we had a chance to
find this rare haplogroup case :thinking:

MHper23S Conq.elite 10. N1a1a1a1a D1a1a1a1b D-SK2296/etc* (xZ31625) ;-):sun:

enter_tain
22-01-22, 08:39
Avars soaked in EV-13. This is Panonia too, where northern Illyrians lived. Love seeing that Daco-Thracian EV-13 all over Europe @Aspurg :lol:

kingjohn
22-01-22, 13:13
Avars soaked in EV-13. This is Panonia too, where northern Illyrians lived. Love seeing that Daco-Thracian EV-13 all over Europe @Aspurg :lol:




https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-a2882ec3cf5df9c7c776cdf69750bc34-lq

Regio X
22-01-22, 17:41
Whole genome analysis sheds light on the genetic origin of Huns, Avars and conquering Hungarians

Zoltan Maroti, View ORCID Profile (http://orcid.org/0000-0003-3466-0368)Endre Neparaczki, Oszkar Schutz, Kitti Maar, Gergelyx I. B. Varga, Bence Kovacs, Tibor Kalmar, Emil Nyerki, Istvan Nagy, Dora Latinovics, Balazs Tihanyi, Antonia Marcsik, Gyorgy Palfi, Zsolt Bernert, Zsolt Gallina, Ciprian Horvath, Sandor Varga, Laszlo Kolto, Istvan Rasko, Peter L. Nagy, Csilla Balogh, Albert Zink, Frank Maixner, Anders Gotherstrom, Robert George, Csaba Szalontai, Gergely Szenthe, Erwin Gall, Attila P. Kiss, Zsofia Racz, Bence Gulyas, Bernadett Ny. Kovacsoczy, Szilard Sandor Gaal, Peter Tomka, Tibor Torok

Abstract

Huns, Avars and conquering Hungarians were Migration Period nomadic groups which arrived in three successive waves in the Carpathian Basin between the 5th and 9th centuries. Based on historical data each of these groups are thought to have arrived from Asia, although their exact origin and relation to other ancient and modern populations has been debated. In this study we have sequenced 9 Hun, 143 Avar and 113 Hungarian conquest period samples, and identified three core populations, representing immigrants from each period, with no recent European ancestry. Our results suggest that this immigrant core of both Huns and Avars originated in present day Mongolia, and their origin can be traced back to Xiongnus. On the other hand, the immigrant core of the conquering Hungarians derived from an earlier admixture of Mansis, early Sarmatians and descendants of late Xiongnus. In addition, we detected shared Hun-related ancestry in numerous Avar and Hungarian conquest period genetic outliers indicating a genetic link between these successive nomadic groups. Aside from the immigrant core groups we identified that the majority of the individuals from each period were local residents, harboring native European ancestry.


https://i.imgur.com/yi7ryzF.png




source:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.01.19.476915v1



p.s
e-v13 cases posted by kelmendasi user from anthrogenica :good_job:

E-V13 samples:

1) ALTper442; Middle-Late Avar (670-750 CE); E-PF2211 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/)

2) KKper541; Late Avar (seventh century CE); E-PF2211 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/)

3) KKper251; Late Avar (seventh century CE); E-Z21363 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L241/)

4) SZKTper70; Late Avar (700-830 CE); E-Z21357 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L241/)

5) PLEper23; Merged Conquering Hungarian and Commoner (tenth century CE); E-FGC11451 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC11451/)

6) SZKTper265; Late Avar (eighth century CE); E-B409 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC11457/)

7) SZKper130; Late Avar (700-750 CE); E-A10158 (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/E;name=E-A10158)

8) TCSper18; Conquering Hungarian Elite (tenth century CE); E-BY6245 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY6245/)

9) SSDper144; Middle Avar (670-710 CE); E-BY5023 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY5022/)

10) KKper252; Late Avar (seventh century CE); E-Z36885

11) PVper12; Late Avar (700-750 CE); E-Z5016 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z5016/)

12) TMHper199; Late Avar (700-760 CE); E-Z5016 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z5016/)

13) SZODper829; Early Avar (620-660 CE); E-CTS6377 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-CTS6377/)

14) OBTper51; Late Avar (700-750 CE); E-CTS9320 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-CTS9320/)

15) SHper182; Conquering Hungarian Commoner (tenth century CE); E-CTS9320 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-CTS9320/)

16) OBTper106; Late Avar (eighth century CE); E-A10955 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY4529*/)

17) ALTper369; Late Avar (710-750 CE); E-Z42778 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z17293/)


i have to admitt
the 1 D case is mindblowing
because the sample was large enough we had a chance to
find this rare haplogroup case :thinking:

MHper23S Conq.elite 10. N1a1a1a1a D1a1a1a1b D-SK2296/etc* (xZ31625) ;-):sun:



My branch is there. :) The individual was probably local though.

Some other G samples listed seem "eastern", however; as the G1 (hotspot in Iran and important spots among two Khazak groups), G2a1 (rare in most of Europe, it peaks in Ossetia, Georgia etc.), G2a2b2a1a1a2a-L1266 (rare in most of Europe, it peaks in NW Caucasus) and even G-M406 possibly (with presence in Azerbaijan, Dagestan...).

kingjohn
23-01-22, 17:10
My branch is there. :) The individual was probably local though.

Some other G samples listed seem "eastern", however; as the G1 (hotspot in Iran and important spots among two Khazak groups), G2a1 (rare in most of Europe, it peaks in Ossetia, Georgia etc.), G2a2b2a1a1a2a-L1266 (rare in most of Europe, it peaks in NW Caucasus) and even G-M406 possibly (with presence in Azerbaijan, Dagestan...).


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WD0u5XXwa-7jeinxLLYDPf5tYMcb8ke0R8sm7Le6IZc/edit#gid=0


p.s
i hope in future someone who did this spreadsheet wouldn't erase it

kingjohn
24-01-22, 21:26
man in the sea of e-v13
i missed this e1b1b1 who fall under e-z827:content:
this the SEper-114 individual from 10th centurey he is under E-L19>E-pf2438
SEper114 Conq. elite 10. (2nd half) U4 E1b1b1b1b1~ E-FGC18894* (xZ36214,FGC18990,PF2443^)


https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y10550/

the cemetrey in which he was found called :
Sandorfalva -eperjes


this is the modern hungarian region

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Csongr%C3%A1d-Csan%C3%A1d_County


P.S
amazing;-)
autosomally he was european even though he was with the conquering hungarians
maybe when bam files will be public of this paper
pribislav or other expert can dig farther
into him to assign him to a more derived snp level :thinking:

Riverman
24-01-22, 22:36
man in the sea of e-v13
i missed this e1b1b1 who fall under e-z827:content:
this the SEper-114 individual from 10th centurey he is under E-L19>E-pf2438
SEper114 Conq. elite 10. (2nd half) U4 E1b1b1b1b1~ E-FGC18894* (xZ36214,FGC18990,PF2443^)


https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y10550/

the cemetrey in which he was found called :
Sandorfalva -eperjes


this is the modern hungarian region

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Csongr%C3%A1d-Csan%C3%A1d_County


P.S
amazing;-)
autosomally he was european even though he was with the conquering hungarians
maybe when bam files will be public of this paper
pribislav or other expert can dig farther
into him to assign him to a more derived snp level :thinking:

He is from the hotspot of the South Eastern group of E-V13 with potential Greek-Levantine admixture. I'm assuming they might score similar to Balkan IA Viminacium samples, but we'll see.
Not all have the Greek-Levantine admixture, one of the earliest E-V13, doesn't look Southern, though being from there, but still.

It looks, not just from these sites, but others as well, as if the chiefs and warrior elite of local people, Slavic, Roman, Dacians-Sarmatians, Germanics etc., just adopted the Magyar ways and being therefore part of the conqueror elite in many regions. Like local chiefs under the Hungarian banner.

kingjohn
24-01-22, 22:42
He is from the hotspot of the South Eastern group of E-V13 with potential Greek-Levantine admixture. I'm assuming they might score similar to Balkan IA Viminacium samples, but we'll see.
Not all have the Greek-Levantine admixture, one of the earliest E-V13, doesn't look Southern, though being from there, but still.

It looks, not just from these sites, but others as well, as if the chiefs and warrior elite of local people, Slavic, Roman, Dacians-Sarmatians, Germanics etc., just adopted the Magyar ways and being therefore part of the conqueror elite in many regions. Like local chiefs under the Hungarian banner.


agree ;-)
his description
page 51 in pdf supplementary information


SE-114: Grave No. 114:The skeletal remains of a young adult male with Europid characteristics (Cromagnoid features) werefound in the grave. The burial contained traces of quiver, arrowheads, antler bow plates, and a fingerring.

kingjohn
25-01-22, 01:22
What are your thoughts
On the 2 avars ( one middle avar -
SZMper-255 and the other late avar-SZMper-332)
Who belong to e-v22 ?
Let us also remember the szolad pannonia lombard
Who was e-v22
nomad signiture ? :cool-v:

Riverman
25-01-22, 11:02
What are your thoughts
On the 2 avars ( one middle avar -
SZMper-255 and the other late avar-SZMper-332)
Who belong to e-v22 ?
Let us also remember the szolad pannonia lombard
Who was e-v22
nomad signiture ? :cool-v:

Depends on their position on the PCA and admixture, as well as the phylogeny of their subclade. We came to the point, and time frame, where the haplogroups became secondary and the subclades everything. Like in the Neolithic, it would be great to just find E-L618 or E-V13, sure, but at this point, we need subclades. Even the ones we got in the study are too old, because they mostly date back to the LBA to early Hallstatt. Probably once the BAM-file are out, people, FTDNA & YFULL can get more out of it. Let's hope for that.

kingjohn
25-01-22, 17:09
some figures from the paper :

https://i.imgur.com/CjuhK2H.png

https://i.imgur.com/qDCWi8X.png



https://i.imgur.com/enJKTXg.png






https://i.imgur.com/NBUDSMg.png

kingjohn
25-01-22, 20:19
from the paper:

supplementary information- page 94

S3.12 Y-chromosome and mtDNA results
The distribution of uniparental markers along the PCA genetic clines shows a general rule: at the Asian side of the cline we find individuals with Asian haplogroups (Hgs), while at the European side individuals carry European Hgs. Along the cline from the Asian side towards the European side the same trend prevails, decreasing frequency of Asian and increasing of European Hgs. The few exceptions from this rule are nearly always detected in admixed individuals between EU_Core and Asia_Core (Table S1a), nevertheless, several individuals in the EU-cline carry Asian Hgs, testifying distant Asian forefathers. This is especially prominent in the Jánoshida-Tótkérpuszta (JHT) Late Avar graveyard, where all three males carried R1a1a1b2a (R1a-Z94) Asian Y-Hg, in spite of their European genomes. The Middle Avar MT-17 individual from Madaras-Téglavető, who also mapped in the EU-cline, also carried R1a-Z94, though in this cemetery all three other males carried N1a1a1a1a3a and had Asian genomes.Both Hun_Asia_Core individuals (VZ-12673 and MSG-1) carry R1a-Z94, as well as ASZK-1 from the Hun-cline. The other two published genomes united in Hun_Asia_Core, Kurayly_Hun_380CE(KRY001.A0101) and Kazakhstan_Out TianShanHun (DA127) carry Hgs R1a-Z94 and Q respectively, indicating that these Hgs could be common among the Huns, very likely inherited from Xiongnus . Considering all published post-Xiongnu Hun era genomes (Hun period nomad, Hun Sarmatian, Tian Shan Hun and Xianbei-Hun Berel, we counted 10/23 R1a-Z93 and 9/23 Q Hgs,affirming above observation. These Y-Hgs were most likely inherited from Xiongnus, among whom high frequency of these Hgs had been found . The rest of our Hun period samples with European genomes carried derivatives of R1a1a1b1, a Hg typical in North-Western Europe, in line with the Germanic affinity of many of these samples, detected with qpAdm.From the 9 Avar_Asia_Core males 7 carried the N1a1a1a1a3a (N1a-F4205) Y-Hg, one C2a1a1b1band one R1a1a1b~ (very likely R1a-Z94) confirming, that N1a-F4205, most prevalent in modern Chukchis and Buryats , was also prevailing among the Avar elite as shown before . This Hg was indeed common in members of the Avar-cline, and also seems to cluster in certain cemeteries. In the Ároktő (ACG), Felgyő (FU), Szegvár-Oromdűlő (SZOD), Csepel-Kavicsbánya (CS), KiskőrösVágóhídi dűlő (KV), Kunpeszér-Felsőpeszér (KFP), Csólyospálos-Felsőpálos (CSPF),Kiskundorozsma-Kettőshatár II (KK2), Tatárszentgyörgy (TTSZ), Madaras-Téglavető (MT) Avar graveyards all, or the majority of males carried the N1a-F4205 Hg, mostly accompanied with Asian maternal lineages. These cemeteries must have belonged to the immigrant Avar population, while the local population seems to have separated, as many Avar period cemeteries show no sign of Asian ancestry. Latter include Mélykút-Sándordűlő (MS), Szeged-Fehértó A (SZF), Szeged-Kundomb(SZK), Szeged-Makkoserdő (SZM), Kiskundorozsma-Kettőshatár I (KK1), KiskundorozsmaDaruhalom (KDA), Orosháza-Bónum Téglagyár (OBT), Székkutas-Kápolnadűlő (SZKT),Homokmégy-Halom (HH), Alattyán-Tulát (ALT), Kiskőrös-Pohibuj Mackó dűlő (KPM), andSükösd-Ságod (SSD), in which Asian lineages barely occur. In the SZK, ALT, KK1, OBT, SZKT,HH and SZM cemeteries most males belonged to the E1b1b1a1b1 (E-V13) Hg, which is most prevalent in the Balkan , and accordingly many of the samples from these cemeteries fell in EU_Core1, or its vicinity, with typical Southern European genomes. 95 There is a third group of Avar period cemeteries representing immigrants from Asia, but with adifferent genetic background. In males from Makó-Mikócsa-Halom (MM), Dunavecse-Kovacsosdűlő (DK), Árkus Homokbánya (ARK), and Szarvas-Grexa (SZRV) Y-Hgs R1a-Z94 and Q1a2a1 dominated, which were typical in European Huns, and were accompanied with mostly Asian maternal lineages. These Avar period peoples could have represented Hun remnants, which joined the Avars but isolated in separate communities. These inferences are also supported by genomic data,as most qpAdm models from these cemeteries indicated the presence of Hun_Asia_Core or Xiongnu ancestries (Table S1b). As indicated before, Hun ancestry was also present in several other cemeteries, like Hg R1a-Z94, but in those cemeteries the population was less uniform.The Conqueror population had a more heterogeneous Hg composition than the Huns and Avars. In the 6 males of Conq_Asia_Core we detected three N1a1a1a1a2~, one D1a1a1a1b, one C2a1a1b1b and one Q1a1a1 Y-Hg, generally accompanied by Asian maternal lineages. Two other N1a1a1a1a2a1c~ Y-Hgs were detected in the SO-5 Conqueror elite and the PLE-95 commoner individuals, thus this Hg was specific for the Conqueror group. Obviously this Hg links Conquerors with Mansis, as had been shown before . Another related Y-Hg, N1a1a1a1a4 (M2128) was detected in two Conqueror elite samples from present study, as well as from other two Conqueror elite samples in our previous study. This Hg is typical for modern Yakuts, and occurs with lower frequency among Khantys, Mansis and Kazakhs , thus may also link Conquerors and Mansis,though it was also present in one Middle Avar individual. It is notable, that the European Y-Hg I2a1a2b1a1a was also specific for the Conqueror group, especially for the elite, as also shown before , very often along with Asian maternal lineages, indicating that this Hg could be more typical for the immigrants than to the local population. Additionally, two other Y-Hgs appeared with notable frequencies among the Conquerors, R1a-Z94 was present in 3 elite and 2 commoner individuals,while Hg Q was carried by 3 elite individuals, which may be sign of Hun relations, also detected at the genome level

kingjohn
26-01-22, 15:46
the 3 groups of invaders ( Huns, Avars, conquering hungarians)
qpAdm models autosomally speaking ;-)


Huns
Hun_Asia_Core-
72-88% late xiongnu_han +12-28% scythian/saka/Xiongnu
or
100% Kazakhstan_ OutTianShanHun



Avars
Avar_Asia_Core1-
95% UstBelaya_N.SG + 5% Steppe_IA

Avar_Asia_Core2-
80-92% UstBelaya_N.SG + 8-20% Steppe_IA



conquering hungarians
Conq_Asia_Core1
50% Mansi + 35% EarlySarmatian+15% hun

Conq_Asia_Core2
21-31% Mansi + 29-54% EarlySarmatian+ 23-37% hun

Angela
26-01-22, 18:23
the 3 groups of invaders ( Huns, Avars, conquering hungarians)
qpAdm models autosomally speaking ;-)


Huns
Hun_Asia_Core-
72-88% late xiongnu_han +12-28% scythian/saka/Xiongnu
or
100% Kazakhstan_ OutTianShanHun



Avars
Avar_Asia_Core1-
95% UstBelaya_N.SG + 5% Steppe_IA

Avar_Asia_Core2-
80-92% UstBelaya_N.SG + 8-20% Steppe_IA



conquering hungarians
Conq_Asia_Core1
50% Mansi + 35% EarlySarmatian+15% hun

Conq_Asia_Core2
21-31% Mansi + 29-54% EarlySarmatian+ 23-37% hun


So much for all the old opinions of which certain people were so fond, that the Huns were probably so admixed that they were very "European like".

Attila, "The Scourge of God", was basically Han, and would have presented as such.

There was a paper which I can't now find which proposed that the trail of their incursions could be charted by the appearance of certain minor yDna signatures.

The paucity of actual "Hungarian" ancestry in Hungary also makes clear that you absolutely don't need a folk migration to change the language. People got into such heated debates about this.

It also points out the silliness in so many countries in the myths about their ancestry, i.e. the 20th century Hungarians making so much of their "Mayyar" ancestry when their highest percentage in terms of admixture is probably Germanic in origin.

kingjohn
26-01-22, 19:07
So much for all the old opinions of which certain people were so fond, that the Huns were probably so admixed that they were very "European like".

Attila, "The Scourge of God", was basically Han, and would have presented as such.

There was a paper which I can't now find which proposed that the trail of their incursions could be charted by the appearance of certain minor yDna signatures.

The paucity of actual "Hungarian" ancestry in Hungary also makes clear that you absolutely don't need a folk migration to change the language. People got into such heated debates about this.

It also points out the silliness in so many countries in the myths about their ancestry, i.e. the 20th century Hungarians making so much of their "Mayyar" ancestry when their highest percentage in terms of admixture is probably Germanic in origin.



about the magyars :thinking:

supplementary information :
page 82 ;-)

Summarizing the genetic makeup of the Conqueror period samples from Table S1b,

we found that approximately 25% of the elite carried Conq_Asia_Core genomes, 25% Hun/Avar related genomes,20% were locals with pure EU_Core makeup, while 30% were admixed between locals and immigrants. The same calculation for the commoners gives 55% local (pure EU_Core), 40% admixed between locals and immigrants, 3% Avar/Hun related, and ~2% Conq_Asia_Core-like genome distribution. These numbers imply that most individuals in the commoner cemeteries represented local individuals as had been inferred from mitogenome data and that the Conquerors rapidly integrated the local population via intermarriage.Our data allows a rough estimation of the proportion of 10th century immigrants compared to the local population. Assuming that our samples are representative for each cemetery, the proportion of Conq_Asia_Core ancestry in the combined genomes in all cemeteries, extrapolated to grave numbers gives a 17% proportion. This estimation is certainly not exact and can be regarded at best as an upper boundary, because elite samples are certainly overrepresented in our data, and Transdanubia with its much higher local background was not studied.


p.s
buttom line as the invading magyars mixed with the locals this Conq asia core ancestery = bonafide magyar ancestery
had been reduced again and again :thinking:

peloponnesian
26-01-22, 20:16
The European cline from this paper appears continuous (it doesn't have gaps) which hints at admixture between the "EU Cores". Similar to what we've seen in the Olalde et al pre-print, where there looks to be admixture between the "Balkan_IA" cluster and the "NE_Cluster". The haplogroups in combination with the autosomal profiles also point to that direction.

kingjohn
26-01-22, 20:41
i do not deny that the invading magyars ( mixed with locals EU core)
i am just asking how much of this conq asia core ancestery of the original invading magyars
exist till this day in modern hungarians ?
the answere is low extremely low %
every nation have there right for national pride
but genetically speaking modern day hungarians are far a way from the original magyars :thinking:

p.s
contrary to hungary even in modern turkish people in anatolia
some turkic admixture exist up till this day

peloponnesian
26-01-22, 21:28
i do not deny that the invading magyars ( mixed with locals EU core)
i am just asking how much of this conq asia core ancestery of the original invading magyars
exist till this day in modern hungarians ?
the answere is low extremely low %
every nation have there right for national pride
but genetically speaking modern day hungarians are far a way from the original magyars :thinking:

p.s
contrary to hungary even in modern turkish people in anatolia
some turkic admixture exist up till this day

I wasn't responding to you, sorry if it wasn't clear. I don't think this East Asian ancestry persists in modern Hungarians, no.