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Angela
17-03-21, 00:00
Before I give the two examples which incensed me yesterday:

I'm a liberal in the sense that I'm a classical liberal; I'm a firm believer in the republican form of democracy which is the bedrock of this country. I am for equal rights before the law for all people, regardless of religion, or race, or ethnicity. What I am not for is a guarantee of equal outcomes. What I am also not for is the Maoist inspired, profoundly anti-Democratic, anti-due process, violence based, "woke", "successor" revolutionary ethos which started sweeping college campuses years ago and has now burst out, as I always predicted it would if funding for universities which tolerated it wasn't pulled and if private donors didn't close their wallets.

For Americans who think they can co-exist with it, I think they're being incredibly naïve. Eventually they'll have to be re-educated too. I recommend they all pick up a good history of the Chinese Cultural Revolution or the Leninist period in Russia and the show trials of the 30s which followed it. History has a nasty habit of repeating itself.

Why am I so sure it's coming? I was watching Anderson Cooper the other night. I have always thought he's a well meaning, reasonably balanced newscaster. He was interviewing a black activist of the disband the police type when, to me, an extraordinary thing happened. He asked her whether instead of disbanding the police, policing the police, more prosecutions of bad behavior wouldn't suffice. Without batting an eye she said that see, there's a problem because the police have all these due process rights! He said not a word in response. Apparently, investigations of the accused, trials, due process rights for defendants, things for which the left has vociferously fought for decades, are now to be tossed out, and mob rule and vigilante justice is to be instituted. When that can be said, unchallenged, on an American news program, it's time to prepare for the worst.

My recent examples:

Piers Morgan quit/was fired from Good Morning Britain because he said he didn't believe most of the things Meghan Markle said in her interview with Oprah Winfrey about her experiences with the Royal Family. If his view was colored by anything it was probably the fact that they were supposedly good friends, and he gave her lots of help with publicity etc. and then as soon as the Prince became interested in him she dropped him like a hot potato and never took another call from him.

Sharon Osborne, a friend of Morgan, had her American Show "The Talk" canceled because she said she's known him for years and he's not a racist.

For the record, I did follow some of the Meghan stuff; as far as I'm concerned "Prince Harry" is as mentally unbalanced as was his mother and he found a woman even more narcissistic and mentally unbalanced. As you can see I was never really a Diana fan; Prince Philip was a cad to marry a young girl he didn't love while being in love with someone else, but vomiting up all the food she ate and smelling like it every time he saw her, or throwing herself down the stairs in front of him, and having screaming hysterics non-stop was no balanced reaction. If you can't make him love you, at least make him respect you. Give him his heirs and find your own love, as it seems she tried to do.

My point is that bad behavior is bad behavior. If a lot of Brits didn't like Meghan Markle as they got to know her it was because she was demanding, didn't show respect to the elder members of the family (Heavens, she had to curtsy to the Queen even in private), didn't like doing all the boring ceremonial stuff they do, was a tyrannical, demanding diva as a boss (You didn't get to be a Hollywood diva to poorly paid staff working for the Royal Family), and worst of all started lecturing Brits about climate change etc. while flying around on private jets and having a 500,000 baby shower in New York. If people don't like you for all of that it needn't have anything to do with racism. You can't pull out the race card every time you're called out for bad behavior.

Then, yesterday I went to the market and asked for 1/4 lb. sliced "American white" cheese. The deli employee told me the people who own Stop and Shop sent out a directive that you can't call it American white or White American. For those who don't know there's a cheese called American cheese, and it's available in either white or yellow. I was ready to blow a gasket, but poor young man, it wasn't his fault, so I said ok give me 1/4 pound sliced American cheese that isn't YELLOW.

Same day, at night, I tried to watch the Grammy Awards, where two women, basically practically naked from the waist down performed simulated lesbian sex on stage. I learned subsequently from my daughter, who at first was embarrassed to tell me, that it's a "THING" on tik toc, a dance etc. called WAP. Twelve year old girls who like Taylor Swift, the serial whiner about her broken heart, watch the Grammy's and I guess this is a OK with the producers of the Awards Show.

Dr. Seuss books won't be sold on Amazon, but this is a ok.

I feel so sorry that my children will have to raise children in this world.

If you have young chidden, you better find out what they will be teaching elementary school children. I swear to God I would homeschool.

Macron says he won't let this WOKE garbage infect France. Well, good luck to him; it's already taken over both the U.S. and Britain.

Yetos
17-03-21, 01:29
hm,

I do not know if I am on the same 'brain waves', of the thread.
but I think the high rapidly increase of science and production, has driven west to 'behavour sink'.
the incresing percentage of, 'homosexuality', psychic disorders like depressure etc, more people living alone (divorces, no children etc), more people prefer living public aid, and more people enjoy drugs(or use a 'cart' of medicines)
I think, rather I am sure, considering how my daughters think andhow new generation,
that Calhoun expirement-theory has also similar effects to human societies.

the Calhun expirement in a video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOFveSUmh9U

bicicleur 2
17-03-21, 20:01
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55B3eLvH-LY

Angela
17-03-21, 20:04
Some new infuriating examples...

Mr. Potato Head, an old child's toy, can no longer be called "Mr. Potato Head"; he is only to be called "Potato Head". My daughter told me about this. I guess I'm not sufficiently in the loop. Is this really what some people spend their time thinking about? I was quite happy there was no Mrs. Potato Head, but just saying "Potato Head" is confusing when it's obviously going to remain a "human" head.

Another doozy is about some cook on you tube who added curry to some dish she was creating. The "Woke" Warriors are after her head and want her blocked for "cultural appropriation". This may be among the dumbest things I've ever heard. Italy should henceforth demand that every you tube or "book" or television chef should be banned because they use tomato sauce, mozzarella cheese, parmigiano, and on and on in their recipes. Let's go all the way: every company which sells frozen pizza, and all the chains which deliver pizza owe royalties to Italy! Or doesn't cultural appropriation apply to Europeans? We're not entitled to claim it?

Public discourse is becoming absolutely insane.

Update: There apparently "was" a Mrs. Potato Head, and after an outcry from parents, Hasbro Toys, which makes it, has announced they will not change the names. Mr. Potato head is safe as a means of teaching children where the facial parts go.

https://d.newsweek.com/en/full/1744451/mr-mrs-potato-head.jpg

There's a lesson here: when you hear about this kind of stupidity, rebel, start petitions, make yourself heard. If it hits them in the wallet, they'll back down, and if they try to "cancel" people you think should be heard, refuse to let them be cancelled.

bicicleur 2
17-03-21, 20:06
https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/23/revealed-migrant-worker-deaths-qatar-fifa-world-cup-2022

all those famous soccer players who earn tens of millions every year find it necessary to kneel for BLM before the match,
but none of them will stay away for the world championship in Qatar where constructions workers are taken away their ID carts and treaded as slaves, dying by the thousands

Salento
17-03-21, 23:51
the woke is a con!

They have run out of justice causes to fight, ... you can tell by the fights they pick.

The most important social battles have been won, ... over and done.

These organizations became big businesses, and instead of being dismantled after reaching their goals, they reinvented themselves, and to financially survive, they are in constant need of fresh supply of “social causes” to advertise.

Anything with a hint of wrong is exaggerated, and then moved under the Civil Right / Social Justice umbrella, as an excuse to raise money and fill their crates.

... many of their fights seem senseless, and they know it, ... it’s their way of testing their power, to find out their limits and what they can get away with... that data is important to exercise their power of intimidation against future adversaries.

An imaginary lack of tolerance is their weapon, ...
and they create battles where there are none.

They abuse people and businesses that speak out by trying to muzzle them (cancel culture), ... because common sense dissent is bad for their business.

They mobilize and use the naive youth, convincing them that they are fighting for “real” Social Justice Causes.

... These Social Justice organizations are an Industry with tons of employees, they are political, they use Social Media to hold power over our Politicians, and now they made and are creating their own Politicians.

... their “real” goals have been achieved... we must dismantle them.

Instead of solving social problems, they're now creating them out of nothing, they speak about diversity and then they preach segregation, ... it seems that they even want to cancel the same civil right gains they fought for it

(they’re now creating payback racism against all that is deemed originating from the West).

Their business plan is a circle, eventually they’re going to have to come back around and fight for my Civil Rights, and after that they’ll “woke” again, and so on.

... They thrive on division.

They’re annoying and useless, ... I’ve already Canceled them :)

ΠΑΝΑΞ
18-03-21, 00:17
What an issue... At the end everything is under the test and dictation of
father "Time". For me shortly is
"The repercussion of the post modern meta-truth" in a title.
Up on the high peaks of our evolution... Up on the triumph of rationalism
and the values of the common sense. We wonder in silent:
-What is "common"?
-What is "sense"?

The epitome of the individualism and neo-"idiotism", reflects up on the
glossy touchscreens. Selfie pictures and pretending kisses, toxic comments
and mass media platforms. Smart phones for smart people... Flat screens for a flat world.

bicicleur 2
18-03-21, 08:04
What an issue... At the end everything is under the test and dictation of
father "Time". For me shortly is
"The repercussion of the post modern meta-truth" in a title.
Up on the high peaks of our evolution... Up on the triumph of rationalism
and the values of the common sense. We wonder in silent:
-What is "common"?
-What is "sense"?

The epitome of the individualism and neo-"idiotism", reflects up on the
glossy touchscreens. Selfie pictures and pretending kisses, toxic comments
and mass media platforms. Smart phones for smart people... Flat screens for a flat world.

a lot of idiotisms exist on social media, but the 'woke' movement goes beyond that
with tv and traditional media and celebrities and 'scientists' and 'experts' involved

Angela
18-03-21, 23:02
It just goes on and on...

Bill Burr, a comedian known for his irreverence, was PICKED by the producers of the Grammy's to deliver the opening comedic monologue. During it he said something to the effect that he just knew all the feminists were going to complain because this white male was going to be introducing these Hispanic acts (and butchering their names).

That's it; that's all it took for the WOKISTS to demand he be cancelled, no one go to his shows, and on and on. It got so bad that there was a trending remark that his having a black wife didn't mean he wasn't a racist; she was just his minority sex slave!

"Clayburn Griffin


(https://twitter.com/Clayburn?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed %7Ctwterm%5E1371268469145079809%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon% 5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.indy100.com%2Fents%2Fbil l-burr-wife-tweet-racism-grammys-b1817885)


@Clayburn


(https://twitter.com/Clayburn?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed %7Ctwterm%5E1371268469145079809%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon% 5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.indy100.com%2Fents%2Fbil l-burr-wife-tweet-racism-grammys-b1817885)

While I'm not suggesting Bill Burr is a racist, a white man having a non-white wife can sometimes be a sign of racism. So you shouldn't assume someone isn't racist just because they own a minority sex servant. They may very well have one because they're racist."

He's calling this man's WIFE of numerous years and the mother of his child a "sex servant". If this doesn't prove we are entering an insane period of our history, I don't know what does.

Meanwhile, the only time I've ever seen this perpetually depressed man smile naturally is when he's with his wife.

https://justrichest.com/wp-content/uploads/Burr-wife.jpg

Northener
19-03-21, 09:18
Before I give the two examples which incensed me yesterday:

I'm a liberal in the sense that I'm a classical liberal; I'm a firm believer in the republican form of democracy which is the bedrock of this country. I am for equal rights before the law for all people, regardless of religion, or race, or ethnicity. What I am not for is a guarantee of equal outcomes. What I am also not for is the Maoist inspired, profoundly anti-Democratic, anti-due process, violence based, "woke", "successor" revolutionary ethos which started sweeping college campuses years ago and has now burst out, as I always predicted it would if funding for universities which tolerated it wasn't pulled and if private donors didn't close their wallets.

For Americans who think they can co-exist with it, I think they're being incredibly naïve. Eventually they'll have to be re-educated too. I recommend they all pick up a good history of the Chinese Cultural Revolution or the Leninist period in Russia and the show trials of the 30s which followed it. History has a nasty habit of repeating itself.

Why am I so sure it's coming? I was watching Anderson Cooper the other night. I have always thought he's a well meaning, reasonably balanced newscaster. He was interviewing a black activist of the disband the police type when, to me, an extraordinary thing happened. He asked her whether instead of disbanding the police, policing the police, more prosecutions of bad behavior wouldn't suffice. Without batting an eye she said that see, there's a problem because the police have all these due process rights! He said not a word in response. Apparently, investigations of the accused, trials, due process rights for defendants, things for which the left has vociferously fought for decades, are now to be tossed out, and mob rule and vigilante justice is to be instituted. When that can be said, unchallenged, on an American news program, it's time to prepare for the worst.

My recent examples:

Piers Morgan quit/was fired from Good Morning Britain because he said he didn't believe most of the things Meghan Markle said in her interview with Oprah Winfrey about her experiences with the Royal Family. If his view was colored by anything it was probably the fact that they were supposedly good friends, and he gave her lots of help with publicity etc. and then as soon as the Prince became interested in him she dropped him like a hot potato and never took another call from him.

Sharon Osborne, a friend of Morgan, had her American Show "The Talk" canceled because she said she's known him for years and he's not a racist.

For the record, I did follow some of the Meghan stuff; as far as I'm concerned "Prince Harry" is as mentally unbalanced as was his mother and he found a woman even more narcissistic and mentally unbalanced. As you can see I was never really a Diana fan; Prince Philip was a cad to marry a young girl he didn't love while being in love with someone else, but vomiting up all the food she ate and smelling like it every time he saw her, or throwing herself down the stairs in front of him, and having screaming hysterics non-stop was no balanced reaction. If you can't make him love you, at least make him respect you. Give him his heirs and find your own love, as it seems she tried to do.

My point is that bad behavior is bad behavior. If a lot of Brits didn't like Meghan Markle as they got to know her it was because she was demanding, didn't show respect to the elder members of the family (Heavens, she had to curtsy to the Queen even in private), didn't like doing all the boring ceremonial stuff they do, was a tyrannical, demanding diva as a boss (You didn't get to be a Hollywood diva to poorly paid staff working for the Royal Family), and worst of all started lecturing Brits about climate change etc. while flying around on private jets and having a 500,000 baby shower in New York. If people don't like you for all of that it needn't have anything to do with racism. You can't pull out the race card every time you're called out for bad behavior.

Then, yesterday I went to the market and asked for 1/4 lb. sliced "American white" cheese. The deli employee told me the people who own Stop and Shop sent out a directive that you can't call it American white or White American. For those who don't know there's a cheese called American cheese, and it's available in either white or yellow. I was ready to blow a gasket, but poor young man, it wasn't his fault, so I said ok give me 1/4 pound sliced American cheese that isn't YELLOW.

Same day, at night, I tried to watch the Grammy Awards, where two women, basically practically naked from the waist down performed simulated lesbian sex on stage. I learned subsequently from my daughter, who at first was embarrassed to tell me, that it's a "THING" on tik toc, a dance etc. called WAP. Twelve year old girls who like Taylor Swift, the serial whiner about her broken heart, watch the Grammy's and I guess this is a OK with the producers of the Awards Show.

Dr. Seuss books won't be sold on Amazon, but this is a ok.

I feel so sorry that my children will have to raise children in this world.

If you have young chidden, you better find out what they will be teaching elementary school children. I swear to God I would homeschool.

Macron says he won't let this WOKE garbage infect France. Well, good luck to him; it's already taken over both the U.S. and Britain.







Woke on the one side, q-anon on the other. I wish that in the EU we could contain them to the US....unfortunately they spread like memes.....even effected the Dutch elections of wednesday (more q-anon adepts won the elections than woke....).

No offence but keep the crap on the other side of the Ocean ;)

ΠΑΝΑΞ
19-03-21, 14:39
a lot of idiotisms exist on social media, but the 'woke' movement goes beyond that
with tv and traditional media and celebrities and 'scientists' and 'experts' involved

A painfull ascertainment, guarantee the token (mark) of its true... :rolleyes2:


I have the feeling that your mention is about the "elite" or the "supposed elite". I would like to comment it. but there is always the danger
for me to slide and fall in anti-social and political incorrect generalizations. Allthough I would notice the interaction between the "plubus"
and every -local or international- enlightened "aristocrats". Actually is the evolution story of the productive intrapersonal social relations
from "slaves" to "labours" to "partners", manipulated from the primordial instict respond of mimetism; immitation; mime;
So, back in deep time perspective the plebs -almost always- immitate the elites and the elites -almost always- "begging" for the plebs
acceptance, recognition, etc.


An (amphidromous) bidirectional epi-phaenomena (the ones promotes and establish the others which at the later stages
lead to entropia and at the end of the every theoritical ,biological, as well all the political, economical, social "systems".


It is the tragic aspect of our evolutive history.

ΠΑΝΑΞ
19-03-21, 14:42
A painfull ascertainment, guarantee the token (mark) of its true... :rolleyes2:


I have the feeling that your mention is about the "elite" or the "supposed elite". I would like to comment it. but there is always the danger
for me to slide and fall in anti-social and political incorrect generalizations. Allthough I would notice the interaction between the "plubus"
and every -local or international- enlightened "aristocrats". Actually is the evolution story of the productive intrapersonal social relations
from "slaves" to "labours" to "partners", manipulated from the primordial instict respond of mimetism; immitation; mime;
So, back in deep time perspective the plebs -almost always- immitate the elites and the elites -almost always- "begging" for the plebs
acceptance, recognition, etc.


An (amphidromous) bidirectional epi-phaenomena (the ones promotes and establish the others which at the later stages
lead to entropia and at the end of the every theoritical ,biological, as well all the political, economical, social "systems".


It is the tragic aspect of our evolutive history.

(elucidation/clarification)
The classes of slaves, labours, partners were present more or less in all timeline history, what might
be the difference is that supossedly -now, and only now for first time- we all participate to that party of "progress".
The leaders who handle the mob they domain the "game". Those who don't they face
incidents like "here it comes the proletariat"... What follows shortworded is a nasty compromise.


An example:
Jesus and Barrabas. <<-Which one of them to free?>> the pilatus asked and the
mob answered. At that point, the legal and official authority justify the every possible supperstition
of the subject (people), against the supposed object role of law; state; authority.
Quite contradictive isn;t it?

ΠΑΝΑΞ
19-03-21, 14:49
It is the tragic aspect of our evolutive history.

We replace ethos with "political correct".
Knowledge with "information and data".
our money with digital "crypto-currency"
Our freedom with "consumption".

(ha-ha mode)
The "partners" is the meta-post industrial narration of the real Truth.... I mean the real, real truth.
Among others and vacations to Mars for all -who have the money to do it- of course. (real true!)


<<And now a special offer only for our customers. For every order of a couple of real truths you
get another one in the price of three!!! >> -Astonishing...


A great welcome to the new brave -in discounts- offered World.

ΠΑΝΑΞ
19-03-21, 14:55
Woke on the one side, q-anon on the other. I wish that in the EU we could contain them to the US....unfortunately they spread like memes.....even effected the Dutch elections of wednesday (more q-anon adepts won the elections than woke....).

No offence but keep the crap on the other side of the Ocean ;)

:laughing:
Actually the sickness came from our side and call them Kant and Marx and Engels...

Northener
19-03-21, 16:57
:laughing:
Actually the sickness came from our side and call them Kant and Marx and Engels...

Yeah sure....woke Kant, Marx and Engels huhuh:confused2:

Angela
19-03-21, 17:48
:laughing:
Actually the sickness came from our side and call them Kant and Marx and Engels...

That's actually quite true in one sense. Post Modernists in academia proposed that there were multiple ways of looking at history, and one was not better than any other. Then, paradoxically, they chose to look at all of history and all social reactions in terms of Marxism, which is looking at everything from an identarian, "tribal" perspective. It's just that in addition to industrialists vs workers, the tribes expanded: women vs. men, homosexuals vs straights, "people of color" vs. whites, now trans people come into the mix. Eventually, the workers were totally forgotten in the debates and in the ideology, which is again paradoxical.

As for where this started,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iudkPi4_sYthere are no more "WOKE" countries than the Scandinavian ones. So, I'm afraid Macron doesn't know his history. Britain was also far more "WOKE" earlier than the U.S.

Here is Jordan Peterson debating a bunch of "WOKE" Scandinavians. You can just see the wall of denial of fact rolling down, particularly in the woman. It doesn't matter what science says. Ideology trumps all.

This whole movement is so dangerous, but particularly in the field of the sciences. It is, indeed, anti-scientific.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iudkPi4_sY

The media, peopled by graduates of "WOKE" indoctrination, attempt to "take out" scientists whose work might present doubts about the dogma. They tried to do it to Peterson; he almost lost his job even though he is a tenured professor. The conflict at his university, however, is probably what drove him onto the road with his lectures, etc. The paradoxical effect is that his ideas spread more widely.

They even did a hit piece on David Reich; we'll have to see how that turns out.

Here he is at the Oxford Union with people who actually have the intellect and educational background to conduct a debate with him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZMIbo_DxJk&amp;t=3974s


Off topic but I love his Albertan accent: a mix of regular Canadian, Scots, it seems to me, and what almost sounds like Upper Midwest American which owes a lot to Scandinavian people.

Northener
20-03-21, 09:42
That's actually quite true in one sense. Post Modernists in academia proposed that there were multiple ways of looking at history, and one was not better than any other. Then, paradoxically, they chose to look at all of history and all social reactions in terms of Marxism, which is looking at everything from an identarian, "tribal" perspective. It's just that in addition to industrialists vs workers, the tribes expanded: women vs. men, homosexuals vs straights, "people of color" vs. whites, now trans people come into the mix. Eventually, the workers were totally forgotten in the debates and in the ideology, which is again paradoxical.

As for where this started,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iudkPi4_sYthere are no more "WOKE" countries than the Scandinavian ones. So, I'm afraid Macron doesn't know his history. Britain was also far more "WOKE" earlier than the U.S.

Here is Jordan Peterson debating a bunch of "WOKE" Scandinavians. You can just see the wall of denial of fact rolling down, particularly in the woman. It doesn't matter what science says. Ideology trumps all.

This whole movement is so dangerous, but particularly in the field of the sciences. It is, indeed, anti-scientific.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iudkPi4_sY

The media, peopled by graduates of "WOKE" indoctrination, attempt to "take out" scientists whose work might present doubts about the dogma. They tried to do it to Peterson; he almost lost his job even though he is a tenured professor. The conflict at his university, however, is probably what drove him onto the road with his lectures, etc. The paradoxical effect is that his ideas spread more widely.

They even did a hit piece on David Reich; we'll have to see how that turns out.

Here he is at the Oxford Union with people who actually have the intellect and educational background to conduct a debate with him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZMIbo_DxJk&amp;t=3974s


Off topic but I love his Albertan accent: a mix of regular Canadian, Scots, it seems to me, and what almost sounds like Upper Midwest American which owes a lot to Scandinavian people.


If than it's Marxism upside down, to put in simple: in Marxist thought culture is derived from economy. Woke is all about the identity thing....more Gramsci.....

Northener
20-03-21, 17:18
That's actually quite true in one sense. Post Modernists in academia proposed that there were multiple ways of looking at history, and one was not better than any other. Then, paradoxically, they chose to look at all of history and all social reactions in terms of Marxism, which is looking at everything from an identarian, "tribal" perspective. It's just that in addition to industrialists vs workers, the tribes expanded: women vs. men, homosexuals vs straights, "people of color" vs. whites, now trans people come into the mix. Eventually, the workers were totally forgotten in the debates and in the ideology, which is again paradoxical.

As for where this started,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iudkPi4_sYthere are no more "WOKE" countries than the Scandinavian ones. So, I'm afraid Macron doesn't know his history. Britain was also far more "WOKE" earlier than the U.S.

Here is Jordan Peterson debating a bunch of "WOKE" Scandinavians. You can just see the wall of denial of fact rolling down, particularly in the woman. It doesn't matter what science says. Ideology trumps all.

This whole movement is so dangerous, but particularly in the field of the sciences. It is, indeed, anti-scientific.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iudkPi4_sY

The media, peopled by graduates of "WOKE" indoctrination, attempt to "take out" scientists whose work might present doubts about the dogma. They tried to do it to Peterson; he almost lost his job even though he is a tenured professor. The conflict at his university, however, is probably what drove him onto the road with his lectures, etc. The paradoxical effect is that his ideas spread more widely.

They even did a hit piece on David Reich; we'll have to see how that turns out.

Here he is at the Oxford Union with people who actually have the intellect and educational background to conduct a debate with him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZMIbo_DxJk&amp;t=3974s


Off topic but I love his Albertan accent: a mix of regular Canadian, Scots, it seems to me, and what almost sounds like Upper Midwest American which owes a lot to Scandinavian people.

From potato figures tot pizza gate all insane stuff...derailed 'cultural ware'...absurd.

Angela
20-03-21, 19:40
I forgot one of the most fundamental examples for how most of this does indeed stem from Marxism, made manifest in the Soviet Union. History was to be wiped out. Explicitly, as part of the dogma, human beings were (and are) perceived to be infinitely malleable, so, the administrators would mold people, starting as children, into "new" human beings, presaging the coming of a future perfect world order.

The problem was and is that human beings are not infinitely malleable by societal forces. There are quite significant biological constraints. People, for example, have an aversion to seeing everyone get the same rewards even if they do the minimal amount of work possible. The list goes on and on. Biology, particularly evolutionary biology, makes many of these things clear. So, what did the Russians do? They stopped allowing the study of evolutionary biology.

That is what is being tried here by social media, not only against evolutionary biologists, who are banned from twitter, but also against geneticists. That's what the opening salvo against Reich was all about; aided by that blind turn coat Mathiesen. The idiot doesn't understand they'll come for him eventually too, as they get more powerful.

I recently read how far the WOKE social media giants are ready to go. Twitter and Google are both working on algorithms to be run by Artificial Intelligence which will scan each and every upload and decide whether it will ever appear on those platforms at all. This would allow for complete control of what people can ever see. It is censorship on a complete scale.

There is not only a societal cost to this; there is a personal cost. Scientists are being routinely banned, not just politicians or political scientists or random people. Then organized campaigns harass the institutions where they work. That costs them their jobs. Some are being partially supported by Go Fund Me's.

Honestly, if you're not frightened by all of this, imo you just are in willful denial.

Northener
20-03-21, 20:16
I forgot one of the most fundamental examples for how most of this does indeed stem from Marxism, made manifest in the Soviet Union. History was to be wiped out. Explicitly, as part of the dogma, human beings were (and are) perceived to be infinitely malleable, so, the administrators would mold people, starting as children, into "new" human beings, presaging the coming of a future perfect world order.

The problem was and is that human beings are not infinitely malleable by societal forces. There are quite significant biological constraints. People, for example, have an aversion to seeing everyone get the same rewards even if they do the minimal amount of work possible. The list goes on and on. Biology, particularly evolutionary biology, makes many of these things clear. So, what did the Russians do? They stopped allowing the study of evolutionary biology.

That is what is being tried here by social media, not only against evolutionary biologists, who are banned from twitter, but also against geneticists. That's what the opening salvo against Reich was all about; aided by that blind turn coat Mathiesen. The idiot doesn't understand they'll come for him eventually too, as they get more powerful.

I recently read how far the WOKE social media giants are ready to go. Twitter and Google are both working on algorithms to be run by Artificial Intelligence which will scan each and every upload and decide whether it will ever appear on those platforms at all. This would allow for complete control of what people can ever see. It is censorship on a complete scale.

There is not only a societal cost to this; there is a personal cost. Scientists are being routinely banned, not just politicians or political scientists or random people. Then organized campaigns harass the institutions where they work. That costs them their jobs. Some are being partially supported by Go Fund Me's.

Honestly, if you're not frightened by all of this, imo you just are in willful denial.

What frightens me the most that q-anon, conspiracy thinkers, woke and the whole circus have created a cauldron, totally nuts!

ΠΑΝΑΞ
21-03-21, 22:44
(intro of an intro of an intro)
I appreciate the conversations with young kids as well with the elders but for different reason.
The youngs have alot of this we might call as "a priori' sort of knowledge which in a way insctive,
and in "free fall" decay from day one (birth) until replaced with experience which charakterise the elders, a sort of
"a posteriori" knowledge (Aftermath;) . Absolut replacement is not, it varies to person and their ages. The
symbiotic effect of both they follow us untill the last day (death).
I dont rely my self to manichastic bipolar complexes as well I dont follow the every lazy -supposed as- "third road",
to any of the intellectual questions/cases.


So Imagine now please, how difficult is to say/write/explain the "all time history" and be receiptable
and understable to people of all ages and "classes". (economic, social, political etc.)


At that point not to discourage anyone but that was the intro of an intro of a theme, from the story
that follows.

ΠΑΝΑΞ
21-03-21, 22:45
(Intro of an intro)


The theme is about the foundamental relation that of the "Work" and that of the "Play".
(in other discussion we might deploy it further)
So, I suppose now is more clear why and how the elders and the youngs are engaged to the following story.
I also add to the process the "media" the ware; tools, etc, which is necessary for the "our evolution" events.
The "tools" are the "answers" for our questions or to our quest.
The "tools" are respond to necessity and that is the reason they are nescessery.
"To Play" is necessity as you well know, that goes of course the same with " To Work".
We work and enjoy, we work with rules as we have rules for play.
We play and we train ourselves to work , etc etc etc...




This is not mine "gradus ab Parnassum".
This the taste of the "water"... of my return.
I will be abstract but percise, , I will be condensed
I will be parabollic, I will be allegoric, metaphoric
I will be genitve and particullar.

ΠΑΝΑΞ
21-03-21, 22:49
THE BICYCLE
[Continuity/discontinuity to anthropologic archetypes. -From Tree to Cave to Stars)]


(intro)
In a timeless space... The story of father his son and a bicycle


For the semiotics/symbolisms:
Father:
is father, is authority, is a boss, is the elite, the bigger, the elder and the power in a sense


Son :
is obvious that is like his father, but -for our achronik/ timeless story- at that moment it
is absolutelly the opposite in many senses.


The Bicycle:
It is the "media" the "ware"(the hammer, the sickle, the every machine, the Radio,Tv,intwernet etc, etc.)
It is also the cost, the value and the price, it is the holy grial
It is the acropolis of troy. It is the Fire, it is the Wheel, it is the Ship and every thing you see
and you imagine. It is elsments that shape civilizations transform economies
reshape social constructs.
(The entity of play/work system as I mention to previous post)


(theme)
The father is a hard working person, mid- class, his interest all was about the family and nothig else.
He is "trying hard" and he is proud for his family. The son is a good and honest boy, he is not the best pupil
but he is up of the average mates but not the best, He (the son) is also truying hard like his dad, and he wouldn;t
like to be ashame his father and the family.
One day the son ask his father if it was possible to buy(*cost/value/price) a Bicyle (*the ware, the media, the abillity)
<<Quite heavy burden is the expences for the family>>, the father thought, but he was wiilingfully to satisfy his son even with such a cost.
So he(father) "bought some time" and make a deal with his son and he said: <<ok, we wll buy it but bring me good grades
at end of the scool season>>... The boy compromised.
That was it. The boy tried a lot harder. He did not close the book if not finished. The father watching him and he was
satisfied with the win/win effect of their (social/politic) contract. Everything was perfect.


(epilogue)
The time goes by and trully the boy manage and had good grades. His father bought him the bicycle.
At that time it was a very good one. The boy was very happy for his wishes being fullfilled


Now all the road is opened in front him,
but all the books closed...
and never... but never opened again...


The End


-How was it ?
Ok, ok, ok
We finish our ":milk" and we go to de(a)d. Goodnight. :bored:




My Eucharistias (Thanks)


ΠΑΝΑΞ 2021

Ailchu
23-03-21, 19:31
good thing to start would probably be to remove the social categories with which people are grouped nowadays. the grouping of people according to their race for example is imo highly problematic. and it is no surprise that this woke movement is strongly influnced by what is happening in the US, where these categories are used and also in britain. there the society is also more "aristocratic" than in other european countries, that's at least how i felt when i was there.
one could argue that nordic countries are on the same level but here you almost never hear "woke" news from scandinavia, they either seem to do it better or people are just more interested in the anglo world.

Angela
23-03-21, 20:55
WOKE Ideology took over Scandinavia long ago and so completely that virtually no one there complains about it. You hear about it in the, broadly speaking, "Anglo-World" because there are still people in that world who resist it and speak out against it even though the response is often to try and destroy their careers, i.e. Jordon Peterson and on and on.

Northener
24-03-21, 10:37
WOKE Ideology took over Scandinavia long ago and so completely that virtually no one there complains about it. You hear about it in the, broadly speaking, "Anglo-World" because there are still people in that world who resist it and speak out against it even though the response is often to try and destroy their careers, i.e. Jordon Peterson and on and on.

North Europeans are too sober for woke:grin:

Angela
24-03-21, 16:13
If I were to make an ethnic based analysis of the situation in Sweden I would instead propose that political correctness (or Wokeness, to use the new term) has so completely taken over countries like Sweden because of an, imo, unfortunate tendency toward over-conformism, as Swedes themselves seem to acknowledge.

Question: Is Sweden the most politically correct country in Europe?

(https://www.quora.com/profile/Henrik-Robeck)Henrik Robeck (https://www.quora.com/profile/Henrik-Robeck)



, former Naval Officer at Royal Swedish Navy (1986-2001)


"Yes, I would definitely say that is the case.Swedish people have always been a consensus striving nation, we don’t like different opinions and we like to argue and convince the other part of a discussion.
Today there is almost no tolerance towards different opinions and people are, like most millennial's offended if someone disagrees.
We have taken it to another level as people who are not considered being politically correct are actually in breach of something called “värdegrunden” (värde = values, grund =foundation) and that is by new policies a breach against the “common belief” that people can get fired from state employment, just as if you had committed a crime or other infractions of the law.

There is a dental hygienist who reported that several of the so called “unaccompanied children” had fully developed wisdom teeth and therefore could not possibly be anything but adults, to the immigration office. While that was the instruction as only refugees and unaccompanied children has the right to free dental care, his employer fired him for breaking the “värdegrund” and won the case in court, thus the hygienist had to pay for the proceedings, in total the sum of £60,000.
I fully believe the “political correctness” has gone the furthest as anyone not fully adhering to the correct views are considered a fascist, Internet troll or worse, even the press who should be the “third power” to keep a vigilant eye on the possible abuse from the state, is more conducting a witch hunt of people expression their opinion about the political policies and decisions that affects the Swedish citizens."

That is why, as I said above, you don't hear complaints against "Wokeness" (or Political Correctness, to use the original term) from Scandinavia. There is no more dissent; it has been quashed. It's all very logical if you just look at the facts non-ideologically, and, if I might say so, without always approaching things from a "Nordic" is always better perspective.

Instead of this kind of attempt to view the situation always in terms lauding one's own part of Europe, I would suggest picking up the books of Marx and reading them, and also a good history of the Soviet Union, especially in the 20s, 30s, and 40s. That would hopefully lead to more informed opinions on the matter. This is a problem which far supersedes petty European divisions. It affects all the world's democracies.

Northener
24-03-21, 16:41
If I were to make an ethnic based analysis of the situation in Sweden I would instead propose that political correctness (or Wokeness, to use the new term) has so completely taken over countries like Sweden because of an, imo, unfortunate tendency toward over-conformism, as Swedes themselves seem to acknowledge.

Question: Is Sweden the most politically correct country in Europe?

(https://www.quora.com/profile/Henrik-Robeck)Henrik Robeck (https://www.quora.com/profile/Henrik-Robeck)



, former Naval Officer at Royal Swedish Navy (1986-2001)


"Yes, I would definitely say that is the case.Swedish people have always been a consensus striving nation, we don’t like different opinions and we like to argue and convince the other part of a discussion.
Today there is almost no tolerance towards different opinions and people are, like most millennial's offended if someone disagrees.
We have taken it to another level as people who are not considered being politically correct are actually in breach of something called “värdegrunden” (värde = values, grund =foundation) and that is by new policies a breach against the “common belief” that people can get fired from state employment, just as if you had committed a crime or other infractions of the law.

There is a dental hygienist who reported that several of the so called “unaccompanied children” had fully developed wisdom teeth and therefore could not possibly be anything but adults, to the immigration office. While that was the instruction as only refugees and unaccompanied children has the right to free dental care, his employer fired him for breaking the “värdegrund” and won the case in court, thus the hygienist had to pay for the proceedings, in total the sum of £60,000.
I fully believe the “political correctness” has gone the furthest as anyone not fully adhering to the correct views are considered a fascist, Internet troll or worse, even the press who should be the “third power” to keep a vigilant eye on the possible abuse from the state, is more conducting a witch hunt of people expression their opinion about the political policies and decisions that affects the Swedish citizens."

That is why, as I said above, you don't hear complaints against "Wokeness" (or Political Correctness, to use the original term) from Scandinavia. There is no more dissent; it has been quashed. It's all very logical if you just look at the facts non-ideologically, and, if I might say so, without always approaching things from a "Nordic" is always better perspective.

Instead of this kind of attempt to view the situation always in terms lauding one's own part of Europe, I would suggest picking up the books of Marx and reading them, and also a good history of the Soviet Union, especially in the 20s, 30s, and 40s. That would hopefully lead to more informed opinions on the matter. This is a problem which far supersedes petty European divisions. It affects all the world's democracies.


I don't know exactly the situation in Sweden, what I see in whole Northern Europe is a tendency to a sense of soberness, somewhat on distance, reserved, without much words.... I must say: wrong impression or not I like that spirit somewhat.....

May be it's really a difference in Europe. My woman is half French and when she is talking with her father (mais non! attend attend! mais vraiment uuuuh) I always get the impression they get in some fight. And they always are surprised that when I state, 'hey are you in a fight or what', nooooo not at all.

Nevertheless Northerners like me are sometimes vulcano's under icebergs.....hahahah

Political correct is wrong when there is some "internal policy officer" that plays the role of 'censor'.

But I truly I'm convinced that was in the nineties much much stronger than now. Because some are confusing being anti-PC with rude, 'I say everything what I want to say'. How hatred, stupid or impolite it is....I don't know if that is either a step forward in the civilization. Most of the time....not.

Ailchu
24-03-21, 18:44
WOKE Ideology took over Scandinavia long ago and so completely that virtually no one there complains about it. You hear about it in the, broadly speaking, "Anglo-World" because there are still people in that world who resist it and speak out against it even though the response is often to try and destroy their careers, i.e. Jordon Peterson and on and on.

well, i can't say a lot about scandinavia, since i do not know the general opinion of the people there. but what if there aren't that many complains because the problems really aren't that big? or the majoirity of people agrees with it? i also think the situations in denmark norway and sweden are all different anyways. in the interview you posted i can not see a lot of "wokeness" either.
In the interview with those scandinavians,Peterson makes the claim that the more egalitarian a society is the more unequal are men and women. and that this is mostly because of biology. when the women talked it was mostly because of this claim. and i see no real denial of science here. Peterson imo failed to explain his point understandable.

the causality is not clear between egalitarism and those differences. let's assume more egalitarian societies are more wealthy thus in theory people probably have more freedom of choice. but does this mean that the choices made are entirely or mostly biologically explainable? because egalitarian societies today might still have a different understanding of what women or men have to be despite giving them more freedom of choice. this would mean when Jordan says that by reducing cultural influence you increase biological influence it is not really this clear. it could also be, that by reducing influence of one cultural aspect you increase the influence of simply another cultural aspect.

the study in Science which Peterson mentions several times for example did not make the claim that that the observed differences between men and women in egalitarian societies are mostly biological. in fact, if the study is indeed the one, then the authors even say that there must be a cultural factor, because of the observed variation within genders and that the observed differences are not that big.

Peterson might have a point, but saying that there is no cultural problem at all is maybe not really good either. i know men who openly admitted, that when they get beaten in something, doesn't matter what, it hurts more for them if it was a women. this might also be biological who knows. in the past the opponent of a man was usually another man. maybe men are also programmed to work togehter or make deals more likely with other men because in the past this was maybe more beneficial.
it's clear at some point people have to admit that genetics do play an important role, but imo, many of the created social groupings we still have today are outdated and need to be removed, replaced with individuals. and yes i know this extreme "woke" movement is doint the exact opposite.

Northener
24-03-21, 19:03
well, i can't say a lot about scandinavia, since i do not know the general opinion of the people there. but what if there aren't that many complains because the problems really aren't that big? or the majoirity of people agrees with it? i also think the situations in denmark norway and sweden are all different anyways. in the interview you posted i can not see a lot of "wokeness" either.
In the interview with those scandinavians,Peterson makes the claim that the more egalitarian a society is the more unequal are men and women. and that this is mostly because of biology. when the women talked it was mostly because of this claim. and i see no real denial of science here. Peterson imo failed to explain his point understandable.

the causality is not clear between egalitarism and those differences. let's assume more egalitarian societies are more wealthy thus in theory people probably have more freedom of choice. but does this mean that the choices made are entirely or mostly biologically explainable? because egalitarian societies today might still have a different understanding of what women or men have to be despite giving them more freedom of choice. this would mean when Jordan says that by reducing cultural influence you increase biological influence it is not really this clear. it could also be, that by reducing influence of one cultural aspect you increase the influence of simply another cultural aspect.

the study in Science which Peterson mentions several times for example did not make the claim that that the observed differences between men and women in egalitarian societies are mostly biological. in fact, if the study is indeed the one, then the authors even say that there must be a cultural factor, because of the observed variation within genders and that the observed differences are not that big.

Peterson might have a point, but saying that there is no cultural problem at all is maybe not really good either. i know men who openly admitted, that when they get beaten in something, doesn't matter what, it hurts more for them if it was a women. this might also be biological who knows. in the past the opponent of a man was usually another man. maybe men are also programmed to work togehter or make deals more likely with other men because in the past this was maybe more beneficial.
it's clear at some point people have to admit that genetics do play an important role, but imo, many of the created social groupings we still have today are outdated and need to be removed, replaced with individuals. and yes i know this extreme "woke" movement is doint the exact opposite.


I don't know if woke has something to with regarding that people are 'created equal'. In others words: differentiated but all with an inborn human dignity.....

Jovialis
24-03-21, 20:02
One could point the finger at woke rhetoric for inspiring the the mass-shooting that left 10 people dead in Colorado.

Apparently, the brother of the suspect said that the shooter was paranoid about Islamophobia:

https://www.newsweek.com/ahmad-alissas-facebook-posts-islam-kickboxing-girlfriend-1578167

Perhaps some political leaders on the left should be held accountable for inspiring a terrorist attack.

Angela
24-03-21, 20:06
well, i can't say a lot about scandinavia, since i do not know the general opinion of the people there. but what if there aren't that many complains because the problems really aren't that big? or the majoirity of people agrees with it? i also think the situations in denmark norway and sweden are all different anyways. in the interview you posted i can not see a lot of "wokeness" either.
In the interview with those scandinavians,Peterson makes the claim that the more egalitarian a society is the more unequal are men and women. and that this is mostly because of biology. when the women talked it was mostly because of this claim. and i see no real denial of science here. Peterson imo failed to explain his point understandable.

the causality is not clear between egalitarism and those differences. let's assume more egalitarian societies are more wealthy thus in theory people probably have more freedom of choice. but does this mean that the choices made are entirely or mostly biologically explainable? because egalitarian societies today might still have a different understanding of what women or men have to be despite giving them more freedom of choice. this would mean when Jordan says that by reducing cultural influence you increase biological influence it is not really this clear. it could also be, that by reducing influence of one cultural aspect you increase the influence of simply another cultural aspect.

the study in Science which Peterson mentions several times for example did not make the claim that that the observed differences between men and women in egalitarian societies are mostly biological. in fact, if the study is indeed the one, then the authors even say that there must be a cultural factor, because of the observed variation within genders and that the observed differences are not that big.

Peterson might have a point, but saying that there is no cultural problem at all is maybe not really good either. i know men who openly admitted, that when they get beaten in something, doesn't matter what, it hurts more for them if it was a women. this might also be biological who knows. in the past the opponent of a man was usually another man. maybe men are also programmed to work togehter or make deals more likely with other men because in the past this was maybe more beneficial.
it's clear at some point people have to admit that genetics do play an important role, but imo, many of the created social groupings we still have today are outdated and need to be removed, replaced with individuals. and yes i know this extreme "woke" movement is doint the exact opposite.

Wasn't my point precisely that there is no controversy because everyone has conformed to those ideas? It's only mainly in the "Anglophone world" that there is still resistance.

Everything the Scandinavians argued in that clip is what "WOKE" people would say.

You completely misunderstand what Peterson said and the nature of the division of viewpoint.

Let me put it in very simple terms.

NONE OF THIS HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH EQUALITY OF OPPORTUNITY.

As Peterson has said ad nauseam, no decent person would argue that there shouldn't be equality of opportunity for men/women, different races, religions, ethnicities, and on and on.

The issue is what explains the INEQUALITY OF RESULT AND WHAT SHOULD BE DONE ABOUT IT.

The woke world view which has taken over, for example, Sweden, says that inequality of result is because of the social conditioning of women, to use the man/woman situation. Therefore, to use an easily quantifiable example, there are less women in STEM fields (Science, Technology, Engineering and Math) because they are socially conditioned to not want to enter into those fields. If any disparity exists, quotas should be mandated.

What Peterson is pointing out is that there is a mountain of scientific literature which indisputably shows that as social constraints against women are removed, women in the STEM fields don't increase; they don't even stay stable; they DECREASE.

The woke response is that we'll just have to push girls harder to enter those fields.

That isn't free choice. Women in Sweden are free to choose. They CHOOSE, by increasing numbers, NOT to enter those fields but to enter fields where people are more important than objects. That is an innate temperamental difference between men and women ON AVERAGE.

As he has also said ad nauseam: men and women are more alike than they are different. If you look at a graph and choose random men and women from the center of the distribution curve, men are about 60% more likely than women to be violent. I don't know the figure offhand for interest in engineering, for example. HOWEVER, if you go to the extremes and look at 100 people, the violent ones are all men. Higher order mathematics and engineering would show the same kind of skew.

You aren't going to get equality of outcome in some of these areas by insisting that girls play with blocks or by forcing them into higher order math. If you force firms to hire 50% female engineers and 50% male engineers regardless of qualifications, you're going to get a less competent group of engineers.

All that should matter in professions or college admissions is COMPETENCE, or we are doomed as societies.

I find him crystal clear in his explanations. I don't understand the issue in understanding him.

Ailchu
24-03-21, 20:27
Wasn't my point precisely that there is no controversy because everyone has conformed to those ideas? It's only mainly in the "Anglophone world" that there is still resistance.

Everything the Scandinavians argued in that clip is what "WOKE" people would say.

You completely misunderstand what Peterson said and the nature of the division of viewpoint.

Let me put it in very simple terms.

NONE OF THIS HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH EQUALITY OF OPPORTUNITY.

As Peterson has said ad nauseam, no decent person would argue that there shouldn't be equality of opportunity for men/women, different races, religions, ethnicities, and on and on.

The issue is what explains the INEQUALITY OF RESULT AND WHAT SHOULD BE DONE ABOUT IT.

The woke world view which has taken over, for example, Sweden, says that inequality of result is because of the social conditioning of women, to use the man/woman situation. Therefore, to use an easily quantifiable example, there are less women in STEM fields (Science, Technology, Engineering and Math) because they are socially conditioned to not want to enter into those fields. If any disparity exists, quotas should be mandated.

What Peterson is pointing out is that there is a mountain of scientific literature which indisputably shows that as social constraints against women are removed, women in the STEM fields don't increase; they don't even stay stable; they DECREASE.

The woke response is that we'll just have to push girls harder to enter those fields.

That isn't free choice. Women in Sweden are free to choose. They CHOOSE, by increasing numbers, NOT to enter those fields but to enter fields where people are more important than objects. That is an innate temperamental difference between men and women ON AVERAGE.

As he has also said ad nauseam: men and women are more alike than they are different. If you look at a graph and choose random men and women from the center of the distribution curve, men are about 60% more likely than women to be violent. I don't know the figure offhand for interest in engineering, for example. HOWEVER, if you go to the extremes and look at 100 people, the violent ones are all men. Higher order mathematics and engineering would show the same kind of skew.

You aren't going to get equality of outcome in some of these areas by insisting that girls play with blocks or by forcing them into higher order math. If you force firms to hire 50% female engineers and 50% male engineers regardless of qualifications, you're going to get a less competent group of engineers.

All that should matter in professions or college admissions is COMPETENCE, or we are doomed as societies.

I find him crystal clear in his explanations. I don't understand the issue in understanding him.

your point wasn't only that everyone has conformed to those ideas but that this happened because the resistance has been squashed. how would you know that?

just because those scandinavians said something that "woke" people would say doesn't mean that they are "woke" nor that they are wrong.

i think i didn't misunderstand Peterson. he made several different points in his interview, with some of them i agree btw, but one of them, which was the one adressed by the women, namely that in egalitarian societies the difference between men and women is mostly biological, is not supported by the paper he himself mentions.

Northener
24-03-21, 20:36
One could point the finger at woke rhetoric for inspiring the the mass-shooting that left 10 people dead in Colorado.

Apparently, the brother of the suspect said that the shooter was paranoid about Islamophobia:

https://www.newsweek.com/ahmad-alissas-facebook-posts-islam-kickboxing-girlfriend-1578167

Perhaps some political leaders on the left should be held accountable for inspiring a terrorist attack.

I don't get that kind of thought.....I don't see the connection between "the left" who is the left? And make the connection plausible of "the left" with a paranoïd type?

bicicleur 2
24-03-21, 21:10
If I were to make an ethnic based analysis of the situation in Sweden I would instead propose that political correctness (or Wokeness, to use the new term) has so completely taken over countries like Sweden because of an, imo, unfortunate tendency toward over-conformism, as Swedes themselves seem to acknowledge.

Question: Is Sweden the most politically correct country in Europe?

(https://www.quora.com/profile/Henrik-Robeck)Henrik Robeck (https://www.quora.com/profile/Henrik-Robeck)



, former Naval Officer at Royal Swedish Navy (1986-2001)


"Yes, I would definitely say that is the case.Swedish people have always been a consensus striving nation, we don’t like different opinions and we like to argue and convince the other part of a discussion.
Today there is almost no tolerance towards different opinions and people are, like most millennial's offended if someone disagrees.
We have taken it to another level as people who are not considered being politically correct are actually in breach of something called “värdegrunden” (värde = values, grund =foundation) and that is by new policies a breach against the “common belief” that people can get fired from state employment, just as if you had committed a crime or other infractions of the law.

There is a dental hygienist who reported that several of the so called “unaccompanied children” had fully developed wisdom teeth and therefore could not possibly be anything but adults, to the immigration office. While that was the instruction as only refugees and unaccompanied children has the right to free dental care, his employer fired him for breaking the “värdegrund” and won the case in court, thus the hygienist had to pay for the proceedings, in total the sum of £60,000.
I fully believe the “political correctness” has gone the furthest as anyone not fully adhering to the correct views are considered a fascist, Internet troll or worse, even the press who should be the “third power” to keep a vigilant eye on the possible abuse from the state, is more conducting a witch hunt of people expression their opinion about the political policies and decisions that affects the Swedish citizens."

That is why, as I said above, you don't hear complaints against "Wokeness" (or Political Correctness, to use the original term) from Scandinavia. There is no more dissent; it has been quashed. It's all very logical if you just look at the facts non-ideologically, and, if I might say so, without always approaching things from a "Nordic" is always better perspective.

Instead of this kind of attempt to view the situation always in terms lauding one's own part of Europe, I would suggest picking up the books of Marx and reading them, and also a good history of the Soviet Union, especially in the 20s, 30s, and 40s. That would hopefully lead to more informed opinions on the matter. This is a problem which far supersedes petty European divisions. It affects all the world's democracies.

My impression is that the mood in Scandinavia has shifted completely during the 2015 migration crisis.
Political correctness still exists and is still being preached and broadcasted through certain channels, but it has lost it's audience, except for some die-hards.

Jovialis
24-03-21, 23:06
I don't get that kind of thought.....I don't see the connection between "the left" who is the left? And make the connection plausible of "the left" with a paranoïd type?

Apparently, Ilhan Omar, a U.S. representative is facing backlash for mentioning that the shooter was what she thought a white male, and tried to make a point about it. But it turns out he was a ethnic-Syrian Muslim.

https://nypost.com/2021/03/24/ilhan-omar-ripped-for-tweet-about-ahmad-al-aliwi-alissas-race/

I don't understand, I thought Islam was a religion, and even white people can be Muslim, like Albanians. As a matter of fact, it is ironic, because if Ilhan Omar went to some Islamic countries, they might abuse her for being a black Ethiopian. I don't think they really care what religion she is.


The recent case of Alem Dechesa (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/09/alem-dechasa-ethiopia-lebanon) brought to light the horrors faced by migrant workers in Lebanon. Dechesa, a domestic worker from Ethiopia, committed suicide after suffering terrible mental and physical abuse at the hands of her Lebanese employers, whose savage beating of her in front of the Ethiopian Consulate went viral last year.

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2013/7/7/confronting-anti-black-racism-in-the-arab-world

Jovialis
24-03-21, 23:19
Maybe U.S. Representative Ilhan Omar should go to the funerals of these individuals and give their grieving families a woke lecture:

https://i.imgur.com/UrfJHYW.jpg

Angela
24-03-21, 23:32
your point wasn't only that everyone has conformed to those ideas but that this happened because the resistance has been squashed. how would you know that?

just because those scandinavians said something that "woke" people would say doesn't mean that they are "woke" nor that they are wrong.

i think i didn't misunderstand Peterson. he made several different points in his interview, with some of them i agree btw, but one of them, which was the one adressed by the women, namely that in egalitarian societies the difference between men and women is mostly biological, is not supported by the paper he himself mentions.

Did you read the papers? If you had and had understood them there is no way you could make that statement, but I'm not here to teach reading comprehension at the level of these kinds of papers or, for that matter, logic. Nowhere, btw, did he say it is MOSTLY biological. Straw man arguments are childish at this level of discourse.

Ailchu
25-03-21, 02:02
Apparently, Ilhan Omar, a U.S. representative is facing backlash for mentioning that the shooter was what she thought a white male, and tried to make a point about it. But it turns out he was a ethnic-Syrian Muslim.

https://nypost.com/2021/03/24/ilhan-omar-ripped-for-tweet-about-ahmad-al-aliwi-alissas-race/

I don't understand, I thought Islam was a religion, and even white people can be Muslim, like Albanians. As a matter of fact, it is ironic, because if Ilhan Omar went to some Islamic countries, they might abuse her for being a black Ethiopian. I don't think they really care what religion she is.

what i don't understand is how someone can be "misidentified" as white rofl. how is that even possible? and aren't people from near east white anyways?

Ailchu
25-03-21, 02:09
Did you read the papers? If you had and had understood them there is no way you could make that statement, but I'm not here to teach reading comprehension at the level of these kinds of papers or, for that matter, logic. Nowhere, btw, did he say it is MOSTLY biological. Straw man arguments are childish at this level of discourse.

oh please then let me quote him. at 11:30 in the clip he says:"and so you get differences in occupational choice, that are also btw quite great in scandinavia, especially in the case of engineering and nursing. they are mostly due to biological differences."

also here some words from one of the authors of the paper that appeared in science: "The biggest misinterpretation could be that our results indicate that social or gender-specific roles do not matter in the formation of gender differences in preferences,” “I do think that they matter a lot.”

Jovialis
25-03-21, 02:48
what i don't understand is how someone can be "misidentified" as white rofl. how is that even possible? and aren't people from near east white anyways?

It happened, not just Omar, but several news outlets claimed that the shooter was a "white male".

https://i.imgur.com/0B43HQQ.jpg

He looks like a white guy to me, but the thing is, why did Omar feel the need to comment on his race? She purports that the news unfairly points out the race of non-whites when there is a crime. Idk what she's talking about, because I never see the news point that out. Rather, she, and the news jumped at the opportunity to claim he was a white male without even verifying it. Lo and behold, he was a middle easterner whose own brother said was mentally ill and paranoid about islamophobia. Possibly having his paranoia vindicated by people like Omar, and other members of the Democratic party using woke rhetoric which could have had an effect on his vulnerable mind. Now the news is asking what was his motive...

According to the U.S. census, Near easterners, and North Africans are considered "Non-Hispanic White".

But in matters of political rhetoric, Near Easterners are not white in the United States.

Jovialis
25-03-21, 13:29
In complete violation of Omar's view that "the media always points out the race of non-white killers", here is an example of the opposite, just last week:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2021/03/18/atlanta-victims-were-killed-white-violence-racism-many-insist/4751240001/
The media was quick to assume that the killer was a white supremacist, or killed because because of "white violence". But according to the killer he did it because of sexual frustration. Who knows, maybe he was a racist, idk. The man was certainly a low-life, and much worse a cold-blooded murderer:
https://i.imgur.com/gHKtQNs.jpg

Jovialis
25-03-21, 13:55
^^both were about 21. Maybe bad parenting is partly to blame? Or is the younger generation so screwed up because of the internet? I didn't have a PC until I was old enough to buy one myself, and I am grateful for that.

Angela
25-03-21, 19:23
In certain segments of society "WOKENESS" has become a disease. Someone whom I follow on twitter mentioned that a friend of hers, a professor, mind you, recounted that she cried for a week because she had given birth to a boy, who would inevitably grow up to become a white male oppressor, and of her "hatred" for her husband because he had the ability to sleep there beside her unaware. Unaware of what I don't know; perhaps of her crazy, obsessive thoughts?

Or was he just sleeping because she was nursing and there was nothing for him to do. Is the fact that she is able to nurse her child and therefore give him the best nutrition possible, all her immunities etc. a curse? Yes, it is exhausting because for months they need to be fed every two hours and you become sleep deprived. Yes, it makes working outside the home immediately after birth extraordinarily difficult if not impossible. On the other hand, the unique bonding experience between mother and nursing infant is an extraordinary joy and one men should envy.

This ideology is becoming like the religion of the Inquisition or like Fascism and Marxism in their heyday. People lose their common sense, their ability to think rationally, and it interferes with all their natural impulses, even the joy of motherhood.

The scary thing is that they start teaching this stuff now in the third grade if not before.

As for young men like the one above, he is an emblem of a very large societal problem. Imo, the fracture of the nuclear family, the number of young boys raised in households headed by women means they lack proper male role modeling unless someone in the mother's circle steps in. Add in the value less nature of modern culture, or perhaps of a culture which glorifies the values of materialism and self-gratification, resulting in a lack of purpose and true meaning in life, and the more mentally fragile among us crumble. Young men may become prone to violence, and young women to self harm in various forms. It's a tragedy.

Modern culture is, imo, toxic, and the further you can keep your children away from it, the better.

Jovialis
26-03-21, 16:12
In complete violation of Omar's view that "the media always points out the race of non-white killers", here is an example of the opposite, just last week:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2021/03/18/atlanta-victims-were-killed-white-violence-racism-many-insist/4751240001/
The media was quick to assume that the killer was a white supremacist, or killed because because of "white violence". But according to the killer he did it because of sexual frustration. Who knows, maybe he was a racist, idk. The man was certainly a low-life, and much worse a cold-blooded murderer:
https://i.imgur.com/gHKtQNs.jpg

I think it is actually a sexual frustration motivated murder, sort of like Eliot Rogers. Since two of the victims were white.

Ailchu
26-03-21, 17:06
It happened, not just Omar, but several news outlets claimed that the shooter was a "white male".

https://i.imgur.com/0B43HQQ.jpg

He looks like a white guy to me, but the thing is, why did Omar feel the need to comment on his race? She purports that the news unfairly points out the race of non-whites when there is a crime. Idk what she's talking about, because I never see the news point that out. Rather, she, and the news jumped at the opportunity to claim he was a white male without even verifying it. Lo and behold, he was a middle easterner whose own brother said was mentally ill and paranoid about islamophobia. Possibly having his paranoia vindicated by people like Omar, and other members of the Democratic party using woke rhetoric which could have had an effect on his vulnerable mind. Now the news is asking what was his motive...

According to the U.S. census, Near easterners, and North Africans are considered "Non-Hispanic White".

But in matters of political rhetoric, Near Easterners are not white in the United States.

why should they verfiy if he was white when he obviously is white? if she changed her opinion because he is muslim then she's wrong like all the others who say he was "misidentified" as white.

why are near easterners not white in political rhetoric in the US? another reason to remove those bs categories, they only create differences where they do not exist.

Jovialis
26-03-21, 21:37
why should they verfiy if he was white when he obviously is white? if she changed her opinion because he is muslim then she's wrong like all the others who say he was "misidentified" as white.
why are near easterners not white in political rhetoric in the US? another reason to remove those bs categories, they only create differences where they do not exist.
Not just political rethoric, but average people, including near easterners, do not consider them white in the United States. At least that's the broad view.

Being Muslim in the U.S. is considered to be a non-white designation. Regardless of the fact there are genetically white Muslims

This is a veiw held by both left and right wing people.

Ailchu
27-03-21, 16:01
Not just political rethoric, but average people, including near easterners, do not consider them white in the United States. At least that's the broad view.
Being Muslim in the U.S. is considered to be a non-white designation. Regardless of the fact there are genetically white Muslims
This is a veiw held by both left and right wing people.


you could ask, why should near easterners consider themselves "white" in the US census when it seems that most people in the US do not think of them that way? and then it is also not surprising why Omar doesn't think that whites can be muslims or vice versa. seems like it is not entirely her fault to think that way.

what is this term "white" even worth in that case and why is it used when it should be better replaces with more accurate terms that make clear you are talking about culture and not "race"? this way it's just inaccruate in every way you look at it and just creates confusion.

Jovialis
31-03-21, 22:39
you could ask, why should near easterners consider themselves "white" in the US census when it seems that most people in the US do not think of them that way? and then it is also not surprising why Omar doesn't think that whites can be muslims or vice versa. seems like it is not entirely her fault to think that way.
what is this term "white" even worth in that case and why is it used when it should be better replaces with more accurate terms that make clear you are talking about culture and not "race"? this way it's just inaccruate in every way you look at it and just creates confusion.

Near easterners in the U.S. pursued being legally white for property rights, and immigration purposes. Finns had to do the same thing, as did most others that weren't originally considered "white" i.e. Anglo-Saxon and Protestant.

Jovialis
31-03-21, 22:48
Near easterners in the U.S. pursued being legally white for property rights, and immigration purposes. Finns had to do the same thing, as did most others that weren't originally considered "white" i.e. Anglo-Saxon and Protestant.

There argument was that Jesus Christ was a near easterner. Thus if near easterners were not white, than Jesus Christ was not white either, nor allowed in the USA. As Christians, the U.S. courts could not let that be. So they made it that near easterners were considered white.

Jovialis
02-04-21, 23:03
https://i.imgur.com/MX4OgTQ.png

Noah Green: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know | Heavy.com (https://heavy.com/news/noah-green/)

So when a 25 year old Nation of Islam advocate rams a car into the Capitol, and murders police officers with a knife, that ISN'T considered "terrorism"?!

The Latest: Terrorism not suspected in deadly Capitol attack (apnews.com) (https://apnews.com/article/capitol-lockdown-car-crash-barricade-live-updates-8089bf132a352c2cab9a333214bffcd0)

Ailchu
04-04-21, 21:46
There argument was that Jesus Christ was a near easterner. Thus if near easterners were not white, than Jesus Christ was not white either, nor allowed in the USA. As Christians, the U.S. courts could not let that be. So they made it that near easterners were considered white.

i would rather say "as christians and as racists the U.S. courts could not let that be". and that was not even 100 years ago? the fact that the U.S. still use a racial system is proof and probably also consequence of the tribalism of the society there. that's also the sole reason why some people even care about the racial composition of the population.

imo the discussion if near east is white or not is not just because of religion but also due to the nordicist character that the the "white" race category always had and still has.

Jovialis
05-04-21, 02:08
i would rather say "as christians and as racists the U.S. courts could not let that be". and that was not even 100 years ago? the fact that the U.S. still use a racial system is proof and probably also consequence of the tribalism of the society there. that's also the sole reason why some people even care about the racial composition of the population.

imo the discussion if near east is white or not is not just because of religion but also due to the nordicist character that the the "white" race category always had and still has.

The racial categories in the United States are more based on outmoded and benighted social constructs. I would say genetics shows us that near easterners, and other west Eurasians share a lot of overlapping source populations. Moreover, Near Easterners are genetically closer to Europeans, than some people broadly designated as "Black" are to one another.

Angela
14-04-21, 15:12
This is what parents are being told:

"Biracial students K-12 students with one white parent are having an especially tough time. If they choose the "white identifying group," they're told they need to go to the BIPOC group (or lunch) b/c they are "brown" and "you can never truly be yourself around white people..

So it's not only virtuous, but mandated that the "one drop rule" be brought back.


It will also be good to bring back segregation I guess: University of Michigan Conference on Education advocates:

"'affinity group for white folx and affinity group for people of color'"


Trans advocates are promoting chemically delayed puberty as not a bad thing.

The All Stars Baseball game has been pulled from Georgia because of a new law that, horror of horrors, says that you can't vote unless you present a picture ID.

Don't these people realize that they're basically saying that minorities are too stupid to figure out how to get one? One call to Social Services, if they don't have access to a computer, would get them the information that all they have to do is go to the Department of Motor Vehicles and they'll issue them a non-driving ID. If they can get to the Social Services Department to register for benefits, they can't go to the Motor Vehicles building so they can vote?

For the first time I truly understand how the Nazis could have brainwashed an entire nation so quickly. Most people are just sheep.

The world is going mad.

"

Ailchu
16-04-21, 17:55
This is what parents are being told:


So it's not only virtuous, but mandated that the "one drop rule" be brought back.


It will also be good to bring back segregation I guess: University of Michigan Conference on Education advocates:




the one drop rule was never gone. maybe you could even argue that segregation has never truly disappeared.

Angela
16-04-21, 22:57
the one drop rule was never gone. maybe you could even argue that segregation has never truly disappeared.

I guess as a foreigner you don't understand that people, as many white people as "people of color" marched in the hundreds of thousands and died so that black children could go to "white" schools even if both white and black children had to be bused so that schools would be desegregated.

It's an insult to their memory to now bring back segregation, and not only that, but to not allow bi-racial children to identify as exactly what they are: bi-racial.

Does everything you post here have to be insensitive and insulting?

Northener
17-04-21, 10:21
I guess as a foreigner you don't understand that people, as many white people as "people of color" marched in the hundreds of thousands and died so that black children could go to "white" schools even if both white and black children had to be bused so that schools would be desegregated.

It's an insult to their memory to now bring back segregation, and not only that, but to not allow bi-racial children to identify as exactly what they are: bi-racial.

Does everything you post here have to be insensitive and insulting?

Nevertheless also foreigners can see that segregation is still a thing in the US.....

Jovialis
17-04-21, 13:26
Nevertheless also foreigners can see that segregation is still a thing in the US.....

That is partly because during the Cold War, the USSR made a lot of anti-American propaganda in order to court allies from former colonial nations in Latin America, Africa, and Asia. Often these nations had very large non-white constituencies.

Northener
17-04-21, 13:58
That is partly because during the Cold War, the USSR made a lot of anti-American propaganda in order to court allies from former colonial nations in Latin America, Africa, and Asia. Often these nations had very large non-white constituencies.

Come on West Europe was not part of the "East Bloc" so no vulnerability on that point....

This was real:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_campaign
And not so long ago.

This is not an attempt to moralize the thing, with a look at Fort Elmina in nowadays Ghana I know the "Dutch contribution" on this issue.

Nevertheless the US had large plantations on which the slaves lived, that was known in the European colonies, but not inside the European countries.

This still has a heritage in the US....until today, see the attempt recently in Georgia of the reps to 'prevent certain groups for voting' and the discussion about this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmatively_Furthering_Fair_Housing#:~:text=Affi rmatively%20Furthering%20Fair%20Housing%20(AFFH,la w%20by%20President%20Lyndon%20B.&text=There%20is%20a%20significant%20link,housing%2 C%20community%20involvement%20and%20health.
To mention some but not all things.

Of course when you live in a country you are better informed (mostly), nevertheless we read papers, watch TV, have internet....and that is not controlled by the Ruski's, the Chinese or whatsoever, we have a long history of free press and free word, from Erasmus to Spinoza, Jovialis!

Angela
17-04-21, 14:02
That is partly because during the Cold War, the USSR made a lot of anti-American propaganda in order to court allies from former colonial nations in Latin America, Africa, and Asia. Often these nations had very large non-white constituencies.

Their knowledge of things on the ground completely lacks subtlety and an understanding of the various factors at play, like migration patterns and class.

As I'm sure you know but they don't, in most cases, as far as where people live, it's a function of geography and "class", not "race". My husband, whose parents were working class, went to a high school and thus lived in a neighborhood where 30% of the kids were black, among which were some of his best friends.

If you're on welfare, you don't live in working class neighborhoods, much less middle class ones. If you're on welfare and live in a large city, a lot of the people around you will be black and Hispanic, although not all, depending on the city. In the American southwest, there will be lots of unskilled Hispanics. In the northern states you'll have a lot of blacks because that's where they migrated when the factories were humming. It seemed like a better bet than the south, where attitudes were also different.

If you're on welfare in rural areas like the "hollers" of the Appalachians, everybody will be white, as they will be in rural Montana. You won't find many black people there at all. It's ranch country. The concentration of black people in the mountain states is very small. It's even small in the Pacific Northwest. That's white and East Asian country.

If you're a black executive or doctor or lawyer and you choose to do so you can live in the mostly white upper class neighborhoods and your children will go to those schools. Yes, they'll be in the minority, but people shouldn't forget that blacks only represent about 12% of the population anyway.

My children went to public schools where, yes, the majority were white, but there were quite a few kids of East Asian or South Asian ancestry and yes, a few black families.

All of this has nothing to do with government racism or even individual racism. It has to do with migration patterns, education levels, and economics. If you didn't finish high school, or did but are only capable of minimum wage jobs, you're not going to be living in middle class or upper middle class neighborhoods. That's just reality. My closest friend is Jamaican. I would have loved to have her living closer by, but she and her husband are social workers. They can't afford it. It has nothing to do with race.

This is why you have to be very careful with statistics. They give you national averages of, say, how many minorities live in "mixed" communities. They don't tell you why.

I find it particularly galling when such criticisms come from countries where the "segregation" is infinitely worse. What about France, or Belgium, or Germany or even England? How "mixed" are their communities? Or do all the "non-native ancestry" people wind up all living together.

Northener
17-04-21, 15:07
Their knowledge of things on the ground completely lacks subtlety and an understanding of the various factors at play, like migration patterns and class.

As I'm sure you know but they don't, in most cases, as far as where people live, it's a function of geography and "class", not "race". My husband, whose parents were working class, went to a high school and thus lived in a neighborhood where 30% of the kids were black, among which were some of his best friends.

If you're on welfare, you don't live in working class neighborhoods, much less middle class ones. If you're on welfare and live in a large city, a lot of the people around you will be black and Hispanic, although not all, depending on the city. In the American southwest, there will be lots of unskilled Hispanics. In the northern states you'll have a lot of blacks because that's where they migrated when the factories were humming. It seemed like a better bet than the south, where attitudes were also different.

If you're on welfare in rural areas like the "hollers" of the Appalachians, everybody will be white, as they will be in rural Montana. You won't find many black people there at all. It's ranch country. The concentration of black people in the mountain states is very small. It's even small in the Pacific Northwest. That's white and East Asian country.

If you're a black executive or doctor or lawyer and you choose to do so you can live in the mostly white upper class neighborhoods and your children will go to those schools. Yes, they'll be in the minority, but people shouldn't forget that blacks only represent about 12% of the population anyway.

My children went to public schools where, yes, the majority were white, but there were quite a few kids of East Asian or South Asian ancestry and yes, a few black families.

All of this has nothing to do with government racism or even individual racism. It has to do with migration patterns, education levels, and economics. If you didn't finish high school, or did but are only capable of minimum wage jobs, you're not going to be living in middle class or upper middle class neighborhoods. That's just reality. My closest friend is Jamaican. I would have loved to have her living closer by, but she and her husband are social workers. They can't afford it. It has nothing to do with race.

This is why you have to be very careful with statistics. They give you national averages of, say, how many minorities live in "mixed" communities. They don't tell you why.

I find it particularly galling when such criticisms come from countries where the "segregation" is infinitely worse. What about France, or Belgium, or Germany or even England? How "mixed" are their communities? Or do all the "non-native ancestry" people wind up all living together.


Talking about sublety, your most recent posting about corona: 'Europeans, in my experience, are suckers for every conspiracy theory that floats to the surface, and true to form they're much more unwilling to take the vaccine.' huh huh

Fact is that of course there is a black middle class in your country, but on average blacks are still more lower class and are living in the poorer area's of the cities. Convince me with the right stats that I'm wrong....and of course the situation on a micro level can be different. But the exception is not the rule.

The fact is that we know in the Netherlands also kinds of segregation, that is due to the fact that until late in the twentieth century most countries like the Dutch or Danes were very homogeneous (in fact the Danes for example even more because the Dutch had some religious chisma's catholic vs protestant etc). The decolonization (with some people going to the ex-colonizer like from Indonesia or Surinam) and since the seventies the people from Turkey and Maroc etc who mostly worked in the industries. But the Dutch situation is not that extreme as in the US. No banlieus, no no go area's here...

But on the whole it's apples and oranges. We know no communities who were generations ago still slaves. And the US was always a melting pot.

Ailchu
17-04-21, 15:55
I guess as a foreigner you don't understand that people, as many white people as "people of color" marched in the hundreds of thousands and died so that black children could go to "white" schools even if both white and black children had to be bused so that schools would be desegregated.

It's an insult to their memory to now bring back segregation, and not only that, but to not allow bi-racial children to identify as exactly what they are: bi-racial.

Does everything you post here have to be insensitive and insulting?

it is insulting for them that the U.S. still have to use a racial classification system and it is also insulting that some people in the U.S. actually still care which "race" makes up the majority of the population.
the reason why bi-racial people often identifiy as black in the U.S. is probably at least partially because they are affected by the exact same discrimation(one drop rule) so they feel like they belong to them. why do bi-racial people even have to identify as part of a race or as a mixture? it makes no sense to make a difference here when for many people this difference doesn't matter. after all, those categories are mainly there to counter discrimation aren't they? yay i'm going to tick the "mixed" box on the next census. what is the purpose?
why not identify for example as americans? you have to get rid of this imo because this way of thinking stands in the way of forming a cohesive society. i know that would probably cause a big upheaval on both right and left in the U.S. but imo the best start is that the state gets rid of these categories.


I find it particularly galling when such criticisms come from countries where the "segregation" is infinitely worse. What about France, or Belgium, or Germany or even England? How "mixed" are their communities? Or do all the "non-native ancestry" people wind up all living together.

can you give examples why the segregation should be worse in germany than in the U.S? similar maybe but infinitely worse?

Salento
17-04-21, 16:56
... there’s no segregation, there’s self-segregation.

... as long there’s Affirmative Action, Quotas, hypothetical Reparation, ... the racial (and others) classifications are needed to find out who’s eligible to these programs.

it seems offensive to many but not offensive to the beneficiaries ...

Angela
17-04-21, 17:12
Talking about sublety, your most recent posting about corona: 'Europeans, in my experience, are suckers for every conspiracy theory that floats to the surface, and true to form they're much more unwilling to take the vaccine.' huh huh

Fact is that of course there is a black middle class in your country, but on average blacks are still more lower class and are living in the poorer area's of the cities. Convince me with the right stats that I'm wrong....and of course the situation on a micro level can be different. But the exception is not the rule.

The fact is that we know in the Netherlands also kinds of segregation, that is due to the fact that until late in the twentieth century most countries like the Dutch or Danes were very homogeneous (in fact the Danes for example even more because the Dutch had some religious chisma's catholic vs protestant etc). The decolonization (with some people going to the ex-colonizer like from Indonesia or Surinam) and since the seventies the people from Turkey and Maroc etc that who mostly work in the industries. But fro the Netherlands the situation is not that extreme as in the US. No banlieus, no no go area's here...

But on the whole it's apples and oranges. We know no communities who were generations ago still slaves. And the US was always a melting pot.


You're a master of not admitting that you were wrong and then going on to agree with what I said in the post to which you were responding. What I and YOU are describing is NOT segregation. Segregation is not where poor people live in the neighborhoods they can afford. Are you going to change the definition of words now?

Segregation is the state or housing associations NOT ALLOWING "people of color" to buy. The latter proscriptions were in deeds. Those are now unconstitutional. If a black family or Hispanic family has the money to buy a house in my prior neighborhood or this one there is NO problem. PERIOD. If an Indonesian or North African family had the money to buy a house in your neighborhood would it be A OK with the neighbors? I don't know, because I'm not Dutch. I know my state and suburbs, and there would be absolutely no problem. The fact that Blacks have been here for three hundred years is is irrelevant, and South Asians are certainly new arrivals. Is racism OK in Europe because they're not used to different kinds of people. People living in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Angela
17-04-21, 17:18
it is insulting for them that the U.S. still have to use a racial classification system and it is also insulting that some people in the U.S. actually still care which "race" makes up the majority of the population.
the reason why bi-racial people often identifiy as black in the U.S. is probably at least partially because they are affected by the exact same discrimation(one drop rule) so they feel like they belong to them. why do bi-racial people even have to identify as part of a race or as a mixture? it makes no sense to make a difference here when for many people this difference doesn't matter. after all, those categories are mainly there to counter discrimation aren't they? yay i'm going to tick the "mixed" box on the next census. what is the purpose?
why not identify for example as americans? you have to get rid of this imo because this way of thinking stands in the way of forming a cohesive society. i know that would probably cause a big upheaval on both right and left in the U.S. but imo the best start is that the state gets rid of these categories.



can you give examples why the segregation should be worse in germany than in the U.S? similar maybe but infinitely worse?

Absolute crap. For one thing we don't have people going to burn down the hostels where Turkish immigrants are living. Don't freaking talk to me about racism in Europe. German speaking Switzerland is the only country where I've ever been that I was treated terribly because I spoke in Italian, so I don't want to hear that nonsense from you.

I'd love to know if Turkish and North African people mostly live in their own communities. By the brand new definition you and Northener are using, that's segregation too. I also know I recently watched a German tv show where people were saying they would never allow their daughters to marry a Turk, so give me a break.

Sometimes I wonder if you really understand English. My comments about biracial children had NOTHING to do with how such children CHOOSE to identify. It had to do with the TEACHERS telling them they HAD to sit with the black children at lunch and IDENTIFY as black. That's coming from the far left WOKISTS writing the school rules, not conservatives or the vast majority of Americans, who are up in arms about it.

If you can't understand what you read don't expect to be taken seriously. Go to some site where they write in your own language.

As Salento also described, racial classifications are used so blacks and Hispanics can get special benefits, acceptance into college and university even if they don't have the grades, get a job for the same reason, or small business loans etc. Believe me, a lot of white people don't think its fair and race shouldn't be on the applications, but the minorities fought to get that added to the forms and for quotas being instituted giving them an advantage.

It even goes so far that the government will redraw the voting lines so they are the majority and that way blacks and Hispanics can get elected to Congress.

Stop talking about things of which you know nothing.

Northener
17-04-21, 17:39
You're a master of not admitting that you were wrong and then going on to agree with what I said in the post to which you were responding. What I and YOU are describing is NOT segregation. Segregation is not where poor people live in the neighborhoods they can afford. Are you going to change the definition of words now?

Segregation is the state or housing associations NOT ALLOWING "people of color" to buy. The latter proscriptions were in deeds. Those are now unconstitutional. If a black family or Hispanic family has the money to buy a house in my prior neighborhood or this one there is NO problem. PERIOD. If an Indonesian or North African family had the money to buy a house in your neighborhood would it be A OK with the neighbors? I don't know, because I'm not Dutch. I know my state and suburbs, and there would be absolutely no problem. The fact that Blacks have been here for three hundred years is is irrelevant, and South Asians are certainly new arrivals. Is racism OK in Europe because they're not used to different kinds of people. People living in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

The fact is that segregation, being black and poor income show a big correlation in the US. Segregation is imo equivalent with divided, separated. 'NOT ALLOWING "people of color" to buy' is imo a step further is apartheid. US is not apartheid. Nevertheless when being black, go highly together with being in the lower social strata and a lower income, the acces to a certain neighborhoods is more theoretic....

And yes this is partly also the case in the Netherlands, people with a non western back ground you can find in neighborhoods which are poorer, but it simply doesn't know the scale of separation that is in the US is the case.

That blacks carry a heritage that is connected with slavery is certainly relevant, it's not because a kind of determinism but it is certainly is a factor in 'climbing the social ladder' or not.

Northener
17-04-21, 17:53
Absolute crap. For one thing we don't have people going to burn down the hostels where Turkish immigrants are living. Don't freaking talk to me about racism in Europe. German speaking Switzerland is the only country where I've ever been that I was treated terribly because I spoke in Italian, so I don't want to hear that nonsense from you.

I'd love to know if Turkish and North African people mostly live in their own communities. By the brand new definition you and Northener are using, that's segregation too. I also know I recently watched a German tv show where people were saying they would never allow their daughters to marry a Turk, so give me a break.

Sometimes I wonder if you really understand English. My comments about biracial children had NOTHING to do with how such children CHOOSE to identify. It had to do with the TEACHERS telling them they HAD to sit with the black children at lunch and IDENTIFY as black. That's coming from the far left WOKISTS writing the school rules, not conservatives or the vast majority of Americans, who are up in arms about it.

If you can't understand what you read don't expect to be taken seriously. Go to some site where they write in your own language.

As Salento also described, racial classifications are used so blacks and Hispanics can get special benefits, acceptance into college and university even if they don't have the grades, get a job for the same reason, or small business loans etc. Believe me, a lot of white people don't think its fair and race shouldn't be on the applications, but the minorities fought to get that added to the forms and for quotas being instituted giving them an advantage.

It even goes so far that the government will redraw the voting lines so they are the majority and that way blacks and Hispanics can get elected to Congress.

Stop talking about things of which you know nothing.

That's really offensive to alichu imo.

He points to the fact that obviously you use in the US still use all kinds of racial definitions. It's certain that in Germany like as fare as I know the most of Europe don't use these kind of definitions.

The fact that racism also plays a part in Europe is true. But frankly it's imo to gross to translate your own personal trauma of Switzerland, how sadly as such, to the whole of Europe....

And being WASP was and is certainly in US an advantage, there are still disproportionate more WASP in the US higher social strata. Even the election of Kennedy was seen as a break in this respect. As was the election of Obama.

Angela
17-04-21, 17:59
The fact is that segregation, being black and poor income show a big correlation in the US. Segregation is imo equivalent with divided, separated. 'NOT ALLOWING "people of color" to buy' is imo a step further is apartheid. US is not apartheid. Nevertheless when being black, go highly together with being in the lower social strata and a lower income, the acces to a certain neighborhoods is more theoretic....

And yes this is partly also the case in the Netherlands, people with a non western back ground you can find in neighborhoods which are poorer, but it simply doesn't know the scale of separation that is in the US is the case.

That blacks carry a heritage that is connected with slavery is certainly relevant, it's not because a kind of determinism but it is certainly is a factor in 'climbing the social ladder' or not.

If you're going to try to write in English then write in English, which means using the English definitions of words.

"seg·re·ga·tion/ˌseɡrəˈɡāSH(ə)n/

noun



1.the action or state of setting someone or something apart from other people or things or being set apart:"the segregation of pupils with learning difficulties"
▪the enforced separation of different racial groups in a country, community, or establishment:"an official policy of racial segregation"


Segregation is a situation IMPOSED on you; it's not a choice, or an economic outcome of the fact you don't make enough money.

You don't get to make up your own definitions for English words. No one gives a darn what you THINK English words should mean.

You claim more "minorities" live in Dutch or mixed neighborhoods in the Netherlands than the U.S. Prove it. I'd really be interested to see the figures for Belgium and France.

As always you also don't answer the questions put to you. Would it be OK if someone from the Sudan or Indonesia or North Africa tried to buy a home in your neighborhood? As I said, in my neighborhood so long as you could afford it there would be no problem.

Northener
17-04-21, 18:18
If you're going to try to write in English then write in English, which means using the English definitions of words.

"seg·re·ga·tion/ˌseɡrəˈɡāSH(ə)n/

noun



1.the action or state of setting someone or something apart from other people or things or being set apart:"the segregation of pupils with learning difficulties"
▪the enforced separation of different racial groups in a country, community, or establishment:"an official policy of racial segregation"


Segregation is a situation IMPOSED on you; it's not a choice, or an economic outcome of the fact you don't make enough money.

You don't get to make up your own definitions for English words. No one gives a darn what you THINK English words should mean.

You claim more "minorities" live in Dutch or mixed neighborhoods in the Netherlands than the U.S. Prove it. I'd really be interested to see the figures for Belgium and France.

As always you also don't answer the questions put to you. Would it be OK if someone from the Sudan or Indonesia or North Africa tried to buy a home in your neighborhood? As I said, in my neighborhood so long as you could afford it there would be no problem.

The prove is quite simple the incomes in the Netherlands are less polarized than in the US so per definition this is not as extreme as in the US, simply. For the big cities in Belgium and France this is more the case, Brussels knows banlieus we simply don't have.

As for the definition I don't want to fight about the meaning of words. Racism has institutional features in the US, in the past certainly and nowadays it's still a problem. You can deny it and say the US is a perfect meritocracy, the newspaper boy can become millionaire that's more fiction than fact. And if this is leftist talk so be it....

And yes it would be fully ok if someone from Sudan would buy a house my direct neighbours are an Italian man married with a Swiss raised woman with Dutch roots and on the other side lives an Asiatic woman raised in Denmark. My woman is halve French. I'm the only one with deep Groningen roots hahahah My parents live nowadays a few blocks away in an apartment they have seen Chinese, Russian people and have now an Algerian student next door whose parents bought the house. So the answer to your question is fully: YES.

Ailchu
17-04-21, 22:14
Absolute crap. For one thing we don't have people going to burn down the hostels where Turkish immigrants are living. Don't freaking talk to me about racism in Europe. German speaking Switzerland is the only country where I've ever been that I was treated terribly because I spoke in Italian, so I don't want to hear that nonsense from you.

I'd love to know if Turkish and North African people mostly live in their own communities. By the brand new definition you and Northener are using, that's segregation too. I also know I recently watched a German tv show where people were saying they would never allow their daughters to marry a Turk, so give me a break.



did they specifically say it was because of his ethnicity? if not, do you really disagree with them yourself? you seem to like Fallaci, do you agree with what she wrote? i once watched an italian TV show where a women said she doesn't want people with darker skin in italy. there you have your xenophobia.

Angela
17-04-21, 23:49
did they specifically say it was because of his ethnicity? if not, do you really disagree with them yourself? you seem to like Fallaci, do you agree with what she wrote? i once watched an italian TV show where a women said she doesn't want people with darker skin in italy. there you have your xenophobia.

Yes, they specifically said it was because of his ethnicity. Yes, Turks were burned alive in a hostel. Yes, skin head groups are very popular in East Germany, and the political party which represents them is also very popular, and they have completely racist attitudes. The same is true of most of Eastern Europe. The things they openly espouse would get you sent to prison here, and that's on top of never being able to get a job again. Or maybe you want to talk about Marie Le Pen and what her followers believe.

You people only see the spot on your neighbor's face, never your own. I've seen the slums where North Africans live in Belgium and France. Don't lecture the U.S.

As for Oriana Fallaci, there are many things I like about her; some I don't. I do know that I have no problem with Muslims immigrating to this country. A boy of Persian ancestry took my daughter to her junior prom. Had it gotten serious it would have been his parents who objected, not us. I helped Christian Middle Easterners get their papers when working for a charity organization. What I don't approve of is Muslim immigrants who come here or Europe and refuse to assimilate to western culture, demand that accommodations approximating Sharia law be instituted, want to practice female genital mutilation, and resort to honor killings if their daughters get involved with western boys. One famous example a Pakistani went into his workplace and shot dozens of people in the name of jihad one week after they had given his wife a baby shower. Two Ajerbajani boys mowed down joggers at the Boston Marathon. Other than that kind of behavior? Welcome.

You really have some nerve talking about our views on immigration when you come from a country where you don't let anybody in, and treated and still treat fellow Europeans like scum.

Ailchu
18-04-21, 01:19
You really have some nerve talking about our views on immigration when you come from a country where you don't let anybody in, and treated and still treat fellow Europeans like scum.

what country are you talking about? germany/switzerland? "don't let anybody in" are you serious? "treated and still treat fellow europeans like scum" a little bit confusing, first of all i never denied there is racism, second of all if someone is "fellow european" or not doesn't matter. noone should be treated like scum and people who are not europeans aren't worse than the others. them beeing fellow human beeings is more important. and last, it is really not that bad, if you want to bring xenophobic countries sure bring germany/switzerland if you want. there are worse examples and they aren't all in eastern/southeastern europe.

you bring Le Pen and the AfD you could also add the Fratelli or Lega. they can all disappear asap imo. the good thing is we do not use such racial categorization and hopefully never will.

Gaska
18-04-21, 08:33
In all European countries there is racism, here in Spain Vox, has obtained 52 deputies in Congress and has even won in one region (precisely where there are more Moors and South American migrants). But it is true that in Europe racial classifications have never been used in the census. I think Americans do it because they are afraid especially of Hispanics. You have to keep in mind that the United States is the second country in the world with the most Spanish speakers after Mexico and ahead of Colombia and Spain. Hispanic according to the census is not a race but an ethnicity (within that category you can be white, black, asian or mestizo). In this way, the USA differentiate non-Hispanic whites from Hispanic whites and thus try to control the cultural and demographic influence of that minority in the country.

But this classification makes Mexicans, Colombians, Guatemalans, etc. living in the United States feel culturally and racially united so that even though they integrate they will always try to maintain their language, religion and customs. Many think that they are recovering and repopulating states that were always Spanish (Texas, Florida, Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico, California, etc.) and when they have enough demographic and economic strength, they will undoubtedly end up imposing their policies against “white” officialism.

Americans should understand that the oldest city in the United States is St. Augustine (Florida, founded by the Spanish Governor of the State) and that the oldest State capital is Santa Fe (New Mexico). The official history of the Founding Fathers and the colonization of the West only serves a part of the population that identifies with those values. The American Indians and their Mexican cousins etc. will try to impose theirs at least in those states where they get a majority.

In a few decades, whites will end up as minorities in all western countries because we are not able to control illegal immigration, and interracial confrontations will become more frequent.

Northener
18-04-21, 09:03
In all European countries there is racism, here in Spain Vox, has obtained 52 deputies in Congress and has even won in one region (precisely where there are more Moors and South American migrants). But it is true that in Europe racial classifications have never been used in the census. I think Americans do it because they are afraid especially of Hispanics. You have to keep in mind that the United States is the second country in the world with the most Spanish speakers after Mexico and ahead of Colombia and Spain. Hispanic according to the census is not a race but an ethnicity (within that category you can be white, black, asian or mestizo). In this way, the USA differentiate non-Hispanic whites from Hispanic whites and thus try to control the cultural and demographic influence of that minority in the country.

But this classification makes Mexicans, Colombians, Guatemalans, etc. living in the United States feel culturally and racially united so that even though they integrate they will always try to maintain their language, religion and customs. Many think that they are recovering and repopulating states that were always Spanish (Texas, Florida, Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico, California, etc.) and when they have enough demographic and economic strength, they will undoubtedly end up imposing their policies against “white” officialism.

Americans should understand that the oldest city in the United States is St. Augustine (Florida, founded by the Spanish Governor of the State) and that the oldest State capital is Santa Fe (New Mexico). The official history of the Founding Fathers and the colonization of the West only serves a part of the population that identifies with those values. The American Indians and their Mexican cousins etc. will try to impose theirs at least in those states where they get a majority.

In a few decades, whites will end up as minorities in all western countries because we are not able to control illegal immigration, and interracial confrontations will become more frequent.


That's also true for the Netherlands, alt right wing populist won the last election in march. The (neo)liberals are the biggest party, but the second is Wilders PVV, right wing populist. Nephews of Trump.

I hope the last thing we get is a kind of "Yugoslavia scenario" in the US.....or in Europe.....

Angela
18-04-21, 14:25
In all European countries there is racism, here in Spain Vox, has obtained 52 deputies in Congress and has even won in one region (precisely where there are more Moors and South American migrants). But it is true that in Europe racial classifications have never been used in the census. I think Americans do it because they are afraid especially of Hispanics. You have to keep in mind that the United States is the second country in the world with the most Spanish speakers after Mexico and ahead of Colombia and Spain. Hispanic according to the census is not a race but an ethnicity (within that category you can be white, black, asian or mestizo). In this way, the USA differentiate non-Hispanic whites from Hispanic whites and thus try to control the cultural and demographic influence of that minority in the country.

But this classification makes Mexicans, Colombians, Guatemalans, etc. living in the United States feel culturally and racially united so that even though they integrate they will always try to maintain their language, religion and customs. Many think that they are recovering and repopulating states that were always Spanish (Texas, Florida, Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico, California, etc.) and when they have enough demographic and economic strength, they will undoubtedly end up imposing their policies against “white” officialism.

Americans should understand that the oldest city in the United States is St. Augustine (Florida, founded by the Spanish Governor of the State) and that the oldest State capital is Santa Fe (New Mexico). The official history of the Founding Fathers and the colonization of the West only serves a part of the population that identifies with those values. The American Indians and their Mexican cousins etc. will try to impose theirs at least in those states where they get a majority.

In a few decades, whites will end up as minorities in all western countries because we are not able to control illegal immigration, and interracial confrontations will become more frequent.

You're right about everything except the classification of "Hispanic whites". "White" Hispanics largely of Cuban origin demanded the classification. I sometimes think there is more racism within the Hispanic community than without it. The Cubans who fled Castro had no idea they had a minority of Black and Amerindian ancestry, and a lot of them weren't very happy about it. The same is true of the descendants of the settlers of New Mexico etc. A U.S. Senator from there took a dna test on a public tv program and when asked what she expected it to show she said: Spanish. She was stunned to see she was almost 30% Amerindian. This is someone whose community demanded that "white" Hispanic population label.

It's not been the government demanding these labels, not since the 1960s at the latest; it's the minorities. Sometimes it's to show their identity as "white", something that Middle Easterners went to court to achieve in the early 20th century, for example, and sometimes it's so that they can qualify for all the governmental programs aimed at minorities which were passed after the 1960s in a blizzard of beneficial legislation . One of our Presidential candidates, for example, claimed American Indian status to get preferential acceptance into college and to get a job as a Professor (to meet quotas for minority representation).

One reason blacks and "non-white" Hispanics want those identity labels is because they can use the census figures to demand reconfiguration of voting districts and thereby guarantee minority members in legislatures. It's also, as I said, to get into college independent of good SAT scores, to get jobs for which there is a quota, to get favorable loans for business start ups and buying a house etc.

These things are much more complicated than they might seem to outsiders.

Northener
18-04-21, 15:05
You're right about everything except the classification of "Hispanic whites". "White" Hispanics largely of Cuban origin demanded the classification. I sometimes think there is more racism within the Hispanic community than without it. The Cubans who fled Castro had no idea they had a minority of Black and Amerindian ancestry, and a lot of them weren't very happy about it. The same is true of the descendants of the settlers of New Mexico etc. A U.S. Senator from there took a dna test on a public tv program and when asked what she expected it to show she said: Spanish. She was stunned to see she was almost 30% Amerindian. This is someone whose community demanded that "white" Hispanic population label.

It's not been the government demanding these labels, not since the 1960s at the latest; it's the minorities. Sometimes it's to show their identity as "white", something that Middle Easterners went to court to achieve in the early 20th century, for example, and sometimes it's so that they can qualify for all the governmental programs aimed at minorities which were passed after the 1960s in a blizzard of beneficial legislation . One of our Presidential candidates, for example, claimed American Indian status to get preferential acceptance into college and to get a job as a Professor (to meet quotas for minority representation).

One reason blacks and "non-white" Hispanics want those identity labels is because they can use the census figures to demand reconfiguration of voting districts and thereby guarantee minority members in legislatures. It's also, as I said, to get into college independent of good SAT scores, to get jobs for which there is a quota, to get favorable loans for business start ups and buying a house etc.

These things are much more complicated than they might seem to outsiders.

Absurd that identity thing drives the US (or even Europe) to the Yugo scenario....disgusting. Either McCulloch white nationalism, also along the Trumpist (the proud boys) to sections of BLM and obviously the Hispanics too. Even Gaska begins about the Spanish America revival :(

I'm more comfortable with a sense of color blindness. Those sharp identity things leads only to hatred and wars....nothing good.

Joey37
18-04-21, 16:56
One thing that's a problem in the United States is the post-Civil War tabooing of states' rights has made every federal election life or death. And as a Gen Xer I do like to blame the millennials for everything but in this case it is more of an accident of history. The fall of the Soviet Union and election of moderate Democrat Bill Clinton and his Third Way economics happened almost simultaneously; all at once the Republican Party had lost two of its three 1980s standards as Clinton governed as a Rockefeller Republican! The only thing left was evangelicals, and that was reinforced by the election of George W. Bush in 2000. That is the Republican Party to millennials-chiefly college educated ones, though that is most, at least in my neck of the woods-with the Democrats as socially progressive, economically moderate rationals while the Republicans are dangerous beardless Talibani who want to take away their precious abortions (notwithstanding the fact evangelicals are Protestant and wouldn't touch contraception, and we have hundreds of variants of that, as well as the fact that the only biology they teach at public schools is that we're descended from monkeys and there is no god and not the fact that the sex act exists for the propagation of offspring and not the capstone of a fun Saturday night); witness the fetishization of the late Ruth Bader Ginsburg in the latter years of her life. The Third Way current in the Democratic party pretty much died out at the Great Recession, so what these upper-middle-class white people are electing are either hard socialists or racial 'equity' enthusiasts, who raise the taxes and drive these self-absorbed neo-Yuppies out of state. It's what happened to California, and is well on its way to happening in Colorado.

Ailchu
18-04-21, 17:18
In all European countries there is racism, here in Spain Vox, has obtained 52 deputies in Congress and has even won in one region (precisely where there are more Moors and South American migrants). But it is true that in Europe racial classifications have never been used in the census. I think Americans do it because they are afraid especially of Hispanics. You have to keep in mind that the United States is the second country in the world with the most Spanish speakers after Mexico and ahead of Colombia and Spain. Hispanic according to the census is not a race but an ethnicity (within that category you can be white, black, asian or mestizo). In this way, the USA differentiate non-Hispanic whites from Hispanic whites and thus try to control the cultural and demographic influence of that minority in the country.

But this classification makes Mexicans, Colombians, Guatemalans, etc. living in the United States feel culturally and racially united so that even though they integrate they will always try to maintain their language, religion and customs. Many think that they are recovering and repopulating states that were always Spanish (Texas, Florida, Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico, California, etc.) and when they have enough demographic and economic strength, they will undoubtedly end up imposing their policies against “white” officialism.

Americans should understand that the oldest city in the United States is St. Augustine (Florida, founded by the Spanish Governor of the State) and that the oldest State capital is Santa Fe (New Mexico). The official history of the Founding Fathers and the colonization of the West only serves a part of the population that identifies with those values. The American Indians and their Mexican cousins etc. will try to impose theirs at least in those states where they get a majority.

In a few decades, whites will end up as minorities in all western countries because we are not able to control illegal immigration, and interracial confrontations will become more frequent.

migration will inevitably lead to the native population slowly becoming minority illegal or legal. and here it makes in my opinion no sense to talk about "whites" because what are "whites" exactly? they are first and foremost a cultural group if at all. if you can manage to properly integrate people it doesn't matter what color their skin has. and it will also not matter how the populations is "racially" structured. of course it also requires a change of thinking of what exactly makes someone belong to a nationality.

the thing with the Hispanics, if true, would only be an indication that america failed to create a national identity that isn't also partially based on racial identity.

Angela
18-04-21, 18:01
Absurd that identity think drives the US (or even Europe) to the Yugo scenario....disgusting. Either McCulloch white nationalism, also along the Trumpist (the proud boys) to sections of BLM and obviously the Hispanics too. Even Gaska begins about the Spanish America revival :(

I'm more comfortable with a sense of color blindness. Those sharp identity things leads only to hatred and wars....nothing good.

Completely agree. I thought that's what the marches and demonstrations were all about, and now the far left radical fringe is bringing back identity groups by color to govern anything.

Whatever happened to Martin Luther King's: Every man should be judged by the content of his character, not the color of his skin?

Angela
18-04-21, 18:05
migration will inevitably lead to the native population slowly becoming minority illegal or legal. and here it makes in my opinion no sense to talk about "whites" because what are "whites" exactly? they are first and foremost a cultural group if at all. if you can manage to properly integrate people it doesn't matter what color their skin has. and it will also not matter how the populations is "racially" structured. of course it also requires a change of thinking of what exactly makes someone belong to a nationality.

the thing with the Hispanics, if true, would only be an indication that america failed to create a national identity that isn't also partially based on racial identity.

Then so is Switzerland. They won't even let "tan-ish" people in. Plus, Switzerland can't even formulate a national identity: it's all based on ethnicity and language.

As we sometimes have to say in court; you have no standing to criticize other countries. Fix your own mess first.

Since you don't seem to be versed in the biologic theories of racism, i.e. the inferiority of non-European, non-white peoples, they were created by English and German anthropologists. Start with Chamberlain. He was followed by lots of others.

Your reflexive, uninformed anti-Americanism is getting boring as well as annoying. You really should try to educate yourself before you engage in debate.

Gaska
18-04-21, 18:44
migration will inevitably lead to the native population slowly becoming minority illegal or legal. and here it makes in my opinion no sense to talk about "whites" because what are "whites" exactly? they are first and foremost a cultural group if at all. if you can manage to properly integrate people it doesn't matter what color their skin has. and it will also not matter how the populations is "racially" structured. of course it also requires a change of thinking of what exactly makes someone belong to a nationality.

the thing with the Hispanics, if true, would only be an indication that america failed to create a national identity that isn't also partially based on racial identity.


The French have not failed to integrate the Hungarian, Polish, Spanish, Italian or Portuguese migrants who arrived in the country in the second decade of the 20th century. However, they have failed to integrate a large number of Maghrebi or African migrants who continue to live in ghettos. After two or three generations, they fail to integrate and provoke more and more racial riots. You only have to walk around Marseille, Nice or Paris to see what is happening. The problem is not the race or the color of the people but their culture, their ideas and of course the economy. If they feel rejected, they will close in on themselves and become more radical (Islamic terrorism, indigenism etc). So the problem is not the system which I think is being supergenerous but the capacity of integration of certain minorities and the fact that Western societies are not as rich and prosperous as they were in the 20th century.

I know the United States well, and Hispanics are not going to be a problem in the long run if they manage to integrate into American society. America has not failed to create a national identity. In fact, when I was in Santa Fe, the New Mexicans felt absolutely patriotic even though their concept of patriotism was not the same as that of a New England Anglo. They were proud of their Spanish surnames, made processions with the coats of arms of their ancestors and considered themselves more American than the European migrants (Irish, Jews, Greeks, Italians, etc.) who they considered newcomers. Another thing is the new migrants Mexicans, Colombians, Venezuelans, Peruvians etc... when we talk to them, they simply think that they have the right to enter the United States because after all those states belonged to the Viceroyalty of New Spain and the Americans took away the lands of their ancestors. It is the perfect excuse to justify their invasion. We are going to witness a terrible struggle for power because the leftists are going to take advantage of the complexes, the weakness and the feeling of guilt of Western society to obtain unjust benefits

Ailchu
18-04-21, 18:54
Then so is Switzerland. They won't even let "tan-ish" people in. Plus, Switzerland can't even formulate a national identity: it's all based on ethnicity and language.

As we sometimes have to say in court; you have no standing to criticize other countries. Fix your own mess first.

Since you don't seem to be versed in the biologic theories of racism, i.e. the inferiority of non-European, non-white peoples, they were created by English and German anthropologists. Start with Chamberlain. He was followed by lots of others.

Your reflexive, uninformed anti-Americanism is getting boring as well as annoying. You really should try to educate yourself before you engage in debate.

i thought about adding the sentence "before someone comes and says europe isn't much better, yes i know(not just switzerland/germany/eastern europe)" to my post. but i thought it was kinda irrelevant.
your anti-germany/switzerland sentiment is getting boring too you know. "they won't even let tan-ish people in" lol.

Gaska
18-04-21, 19:53
You're right about everything except the classification of "Hispanic whites". "White" Hispanics largely of Cuban origin demanded the classification. I sometimes think there is more racism within the Hispanic community than without it. The Cubans who fled Castro had no idea they had a minority of Black and Amerindian ancestry, and a lot of them weren't very happy about it. The same is true of the descendants of the settlers of New Mexico etc. A U.S. Senator from there took a dna test on a public tv program and when asked what she expected it to show she said: Spanish. She was stunned to see she was almost 30% Amerindian. This is someone whose community demanded that "white" Hispanic population label.

It's not been the government demanding these labels, not since the 1960s at the latest; it's the minorities. Sometimes it's to show their identity as "white", something that Middle Easterners went to court to achieve in the early 20th century, for example, and sometimes it's so that they can qualify for all the governmental programs aimed at minorities which were passed after the 1960s in a blizzard of beneficial legislation . One of our Presidential candidates, for example, claimed American Indian status to get preferential acceptance into college and to get a job as a Professor (to meet quotas for minority representation).

One reason blacks and "non-white" Hispanics want those identity labels is because they can use the census figures to demand reconfiguration of voting districts and thereby guarantee minority members in legislatures. It's also, as I said, to get into college independent of good SAT scores, to get jobs for which there is a quota, to get favorable loans for business start ups and buying a house etc.

These things are much more complicated than they might seem to outsiders.

We Spaniards are not very proud of our behavior in the past, in our former colonies we had 16 racial castes starting with white European (born in Spain), Criollos (white descendant of Spaniards but born in America) and followed by mestizos, mulattos, cuarterones, pardos, blacks, Indians etc. .... These classifications are still present in Cuba and in the rest of the American countries, in fact, except for Peru, Bolivia and some other Central American countries, no other country has managed to have indigenous presidents after 200 years of independence, that is to say, the white Criollos continue to maintain power without caring about the consequences of poverty and social injustice.Then you are right, within the Hispanic community there is also a lot of racism. BUT

Who is the one who qualifies another person as white, what criteria do they use?

No Percentages of Amerindian, black or Jewish blood?

Purity of blood as we did the Spaniards who had to prove that we had no Moorish or Jewish blood in 10 generations to enter the army, the church, be teachers, doctors or civil servants?

Who can say that a Cuban is not white because he has Amerindian or black blood when surely many of those white people of North European descent will have the same percentages (especially those who arrived in the early years of the colony) If these gentlemen met Cameron Diaz on the street, would they say that he is not white despite his Nordic appearance because he has a small percentage of Cuban, Amerindian or black blood? Don't you think it's funny that someone is labeled as belonging to a certain ethnic group simply for speaking Spanish?

I have never really understood why many northern Europeans and their American redneck friends are obsessed with these racial classifications and why they want to monopolize whiteness-Could someone explain it to me?

We Basques have had throughout our history a racist behavior that has been a real disaster. Some ultra-nationalist morons continue to think that some people are superior to others because of their physical appearance, the color of their skin, their craniometry or their hemotypology. I have lost friends and family in terrorist attacks committed by Basque fanatics, simply because our political ideas were different. And they did everything in the name of the Basque people, our language, and our race. I hope we are already vaccinated against violence because we have been in peace for many years.

But that does not mean that we agree with the immigration policies of the European Union, we do not like that foreigners have preference over Spaniards when it comes to receiving social aid or that they are paid houses, subsidies, schools and public health without paying taxes. The European Union is going to commit suicide if it continues to apply these policies.

Maciamo
19-04-21, 11:22
Then so is Switzerland. They won't even let "tan-ish" people in.

I don't think that's true any more. Over 25% of Switzerland's population is foreign (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Switzerland#Permanent_residents_by _nationality) - one of the highest percentage in Europe and it keeps rising steadily year after year. Add to that about half a million of naturalised citizens. Among those foreigners 16% (so 4% of the total population) are from outside Europe, with the Middle East and Africa on top.

Among the Europeans, many are South Europeans, including 300,000 from ex-Yugoslavia (3.7% of the Swiss population) and 321,000 from Italy (4% of the population).

Maciamo
19-04-21, 11:51
Being Muslim in the U.S. is considered to be a non-white designation. Regardless of the fact there are genetically white Muslims
This is a veiw held by both left and right wing people.

I think that is a recipe for disaster if people start amalgamating ethnicity and religious beliefs. It's only one step away from blending ethnicity and political beliefs. Ethnicity is genes. You can't change it. Religion and politics depend on upbringing, culture, but also personal choice and can evolve a lot (sometimes to the extreme opposite) in one's life time.

Jovialis
19-04-21, 11:53
Come on West Europe was not part of the "East Bloc" so no vulnerability on that point....

This was real:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_campaign
And not so long ago.

This is not an attempt to moralize the thing, with a look at Fort Elmina in nowadays Ghana I know the "Dutch contribution" on this issue.

Nevertheless the US had large plantations on which the slaves lived, that was known in the European colonies, but not inside the European countries.

This still has a heritage in the US....until today, see the attempt recently in Georgia of the reps to 'prevent certain groups for voting' and the discussion about this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmatively_Furthering_Fair_Housing#:~:text=Affi rmatively%20Furthering%20Fair%20Housing%20(AFFH,la w%20by%20President%20Lyndon%20B.&text=There%20is%20a%20significant%20link,housing%2 C%20community%20involvement%20and%20health.
To mention some but not all things.

Of course when you live in a country you are better informed (mostly), nevertheless we read papers, watch TV, have internet....and that is not controlled by the Ruski's, the Chinese or whatsoever, we have a long history of free press and free word, from Erasmus to Spinoza, Jovialis!

This kind of propaganda is used by leftists here in the United States, for their own rhetoric. That is why you have feeble minded morons dressed in black, who think they are heroic Marxist revolutionaries, because they burned down a Starbucks. These people have accomplished absolutely nothing. That is why it is hilarious to me that Biden is the president. He is just paying lip-service to the emotional insecurities of the masses, while wealth and power gets ever more stratified.

Jovialis
19-04-21, 12:17
^^Looks like Biden is not the only one just paying-lip service:



Black Lives Matter infighting grows after co-founder's real estate shopping spree

Cullors, who describes herself as a Marxist, dished out more than $1.4 million last month for a 2,370-square-foot home in Los Angeles. The home features a detached apartment capable of "hosting guests long term with a private entry and a living room with kitchenette," according to real state website Dirt.com (https://www.dirt.com/gallery/more-dirt/politicians/black-lives-matter-co-founder-patrisse-khan-cullors-lands-topanga-canyon-compound-1203374803/patrissecullors_tc1/).

https://abc3340.com/news/nation-world/black-lives-matter-continue-to-fracture-after-founders-home-buying-spree

Jovialis
19-04-21, 12:23
I think that is a recipe for disaster if people start amalgamating ethnicity and religious beliefs. It's only one step away from blending ethnicity and political beliefs. Ethnicity is genes. You can't change it. Religion and politics depend on upbringing, culture, but also personal choice and can evolve a lot (sometimes to the extreme opposite) in one's life time.

I agree that it is dangerous, and it doesn't make sense. But I think everyday people make that mistake, and some politicians pick up on it, and try to use it for their own gain.

Maciamo
19-04-21, 12:27
I find it particularly galling when such criticisms come from countries where the "segregation" is infinitely worse. What about France, or Belgium, or Germany or even England? How "mixed" are their communities? Or do all the "non-native ancestry" people wind up all living together.

Growing up in Belgium, in secondary school (junior high and high school in North America) there were other kids with roots from various European countries whose parents were so well integrated that there was no way of knowing they were not Belgian. These were not just neighbouring countries but also Hungary, Poland, Portugal, Italy, Greece...

I remember that there were two adopted people in my year (one from Korea, the other from India), and one immigrant from Rwanda and a guy who was half Iraqi. Never was there any form of discrimination against them. In fact we never talked about race and classified people into ethnic groups. There surely were ghettoes of Maghrebi immigrants already back then, but they were far away and I had never seen them. With the hindsight our view of interracial relations all seemed so jejune and ingenuous. We had heard of racism in history classes, like the Nazi towards the Jews, segregation between Blacks and Whites in South Africa and in the US... But that seemed all so distant and unlike the world we lived in.

Then I grew up, travelled around the world, learned a lot of life in other countries, about politics, ethnic groups, religions, discrimination, human psychology, and so on. I realised that human relations were not always as straightforward when it came to physical appearance as what I had known until I was 18.

It is true that there are problems with some immigrants in Belgium today. But 95% of the tensions, conflicts, discrimination and lack of integration come from a few ghettoes in parts of larger cities like Brussels and Antwerp. Elsewhere, even outside those ghettoes in Brussels and Antwerp, foreigners are generally well integrated and respected. Even in the wealthiest neighbourhoods schools have a diversity of ethnicities and I have never heard of racism between children, because there is no instituted segregation. Note that the Muslim ghettoes are self segregating and that people who wish to integrate can do it freely and easily. I know many Muslim Maghrebi who are well integrated, but it's undeniable that there are others who doggedly refuse to live in any other way than their ancestors did in their country.

Even after all I read and learned about the US (I recently finished reading These Truths, by Jill Lepore (https://www.amazon.com/These-Truths-History-United-States/dp/0393635244), a 900-page history of the US) I had to look up the meaning of BIPOC (Black, Indigenous and people of color) when Angela mentioned it above, as I hadn't heard of it before. There is just no equivalent word here. To think that schools have "BIPOC groups" still today in America is a cultural gap so deep with modern Belgium as to be almost inconceivable.

Maciamo
19-04-21, 12:43
If an Indonesian or North African family had the money to buy a house in your neighborhood would it be A OK with the neighbors? I don't know, because I'm not Dutch. I know my state and suburbs, and there would be absolutely no problem. The fact that Blacks have been here for three hundred years is is irrelevant, and South Asians are certainly new arrivals. Is racism OK in Europe because they're not used to different kinds of people. People living in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Most people here (there are always exceptions anywhere) would be confortable living next to people of different races/ethnicities. In fact it would be hard to find any neighbourhood in Brussels (where one third of the population is foreign) where Belgians do not live next to Africans, Asians, Latin Americans, and so on. There are Black and Maghrebi doctors in hospitals and private practices, even in wealthy neighbourhoods. I don't know of a single school that doesn't have Black and Maghrebi kids alongside European ones.

Maciamo
19-04-21, 12:58
Absolute crap.

That's no way to talk to someone here. Sorry if I have to step in, but being a mod does not give you all the rights.


For one thing we don't have people going to burn down the hostels where Turkish immigrants are living.

Never heard of that. If you dig well enough you'll find dirt on any country.


Don't freaking talk to me about racism in Europe. German speaking Switzerland is the only country where I've ever been that I was treated terribly because I spoke in Italian, so I don't want to hear that nonsense from you.

Perhaps it's time you put this experience of many decades ago behind you. Switzerland isn't like that any more.


I also know I recently watched a German tv show where people were saying they would never allow their daughters to marry a Turk, so give me a break.

And I personally know many mixed couples (Belgian-Turkish, Belgian-Maghrebi, etc.).


Sometimes I wonder if you really understand English.
[...]
If you can't understand what you read don't expect to be taken seriously. Go to some site where they write in your own language.

Please refrain from insulting other forum members.


My comments about biracial children had NOTHING to do with how such children CHOOSE to identify. It had to do with the TEACHERS telling them they HAD to sit with the black children at lunch and IDENTIFY as black.

That's what I was talking about. This would never happen in Belgium (and most of Western Europe) because there is no culture of labelling people by race. We hardly ever use terms like 'white' either. Another example is the term 'Hispanic' as a racial category, which has no real translation in French, Dutch or many other European languages.

Maciamo
19-04-21, 13:02
That's really offensive to alichu imo.

He points to the fact that obviously you use in the US still use all kinds of racial definitions. It's certain that in Germany like as fare as I know the most of Europe don't use these kind of definitions.


I agree with that.

Angela
19-04-21, 15:03
I don't know how many times I have to repeat the same explanation over and over before it is understood:

It is the minorities in the U.S. who want racial and "ethnic" categories on the census so that they can push for redistricting so that there will be voting districts with high numbers of minorities and thereby ensuring that there will be minorities in the legislatures like, for example, the House of Representatives.

The same is true for applications for colleges and universities, jobs, business loans etc. They want that information on the form because then they can get admitted with lower grades, get hired to fill quotas, get better terms for business loans etc.

It has absolutely nothing to do with what Ailchu is talking about.

Why is that so difficult to comprehend?

As for the U.S. not being able to forge a single identity, I stand by the fact that that's rich coming from countries where white people are separated from each other within one country.

Most of the very frequent users of this site, and most of the moderators, including me, who provide a lot of the content here, are Americans, and we're sick of certain European members constantly posting anti-American content based on an abysmal lack of knowledge of how things work in America. Then, they don't like it when the tables are turned. People living in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, or they should at least have the decency not to complain when the tables are turned.

Northener
19-04-21, 16:05
I don't know how many times I have to repeat the same explanation over and over before it is understood:

It is the minorities in the U.S. who want racial and "ethnic" categories on the census so that they can push for redistricting so that there will be voting districts with high numbers of minorities and thereby ensuring that there will be minorities in the legislatures like, for example, the House of Representatives.

The same is true for applications for colleges and universities, jobs, business loans etc. They want that information on the form because then they can get admitted with lower grades, get hired to fill quotas, get better terms for business loans etc.

It has absolutely nothing to do with what Ailchu is talking about.

Why is that so difficult to comprehend?

As for the U.S. not being able to forge a single identity, I stand by the fact that that's rich coming from countries where white people are separated from each other within one country.

Most of the very frequent users of this site, and most of the moderators, including me, who provide a lot of the content here, are Americans, and we're sick of certain European members constantly posting anti-American content based on an abysmal lack of knowledge of how things work in America. Then, they don't like it when the tables are turned. People living in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, or they should at least have the decency not to complain when the tables are turned.

First of all I'm explicit not anti-American, or anti-US. Never been so. That's doesn't means that I'm apologetic.

But first back to basics, I understand what you have stated: "the minorities in the U.S. who want racial and "ethnic" categories".

The question is who ever started with this categories; those minorities? Or were they subjected to ethnic categories? Did the minorities undertook initiatives to introduce those categories? Did they "demand" a category? I doubt that.....

I guess it's the opposite. It's a wry conclusion that they 'act according to' the racial categories laid up on. And now they demand things based on 'that stamp'. If the racial categories were never been there or long ago were thrown away this phenomenon didn't occur. Something like: he who sows wind will reap a storm.....

Besides that it's very obvious that you have some views about Europe is due to some personal experiences. Everyone is shaped by their own circumstances. But you make them normative for the whole of Europe. I hope that Maciamo, Alichu and I have made clear that Europe anno 2021 isn't always as you seem to suppose (as you try to do so vice versa).

And last but not least your language towards other members is sometimes quite blunt or offensive. Let's keep it civilized together....(even if we sometimes deeply disagree).

Maciamo
19-04-21, 16:29
I don't know how many times I have to repeat the same explanation over and over before it is understood:

It is the minorities in the U.S. who want racial and "ethnic" categories on the census so that they can push for redistricting so that there will be voting districts with high numbers of minorities and thereby ensuring that there will be minorities in the legislatures like, for example, the House of Representatives.

The same is true for applications for colleges and universities, jobs, business loans etc. They want that information on the form because then they can get admitted with lower grades, get hired to fill quotas, get better terms for business loans etc.


Why does it matter that it is minorities that want racial and "ethnic" categories? Aren't they Americans too? In fact, Native Americans, some Hispanics (descendants of the inhabitant of Spanish Texas, New Mexico, California, Florida) and most Black people have been on the territory of the USA for longer than the majority of non-Hispanic white people. Their opinions or values also represent American culture. If they are the ones who want clearly distinct racial categories, then it means that they managed to impose their desires and shape American cultural identity. But the fact remains that it is an American specificity to sort people in racial/ethnic categories, even for official state purposes. It's a hallmark of Americanism to be asked, when filling a form (for whatever purpose) if we are Caucasian/White, Hispanic, Black, Native American, etc. In fact in some other Western countries like France it is prohibited to ask such questions for the government, schools, work, hospitals, etc. I am not saying that I agree with it. I personally dislike a lot of things about the French system (ban on DNA tests, no statistics on ethnic groups, all the excessed of the Covid restrictions I described here (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/41328-Anti-vaxxer-movement-strongest-in-France), and so on).


As for the U.S. not being able to forge a single identity, I stand by the fact that that's rich coming from countries where white people are separated from each other within one country.

I don't know who you are addressing. It feels it is me as Belgium is one of the few countries where 'white' people are separated from each others (linguistically). If it is, I have never said that the U.S. is not being able to forge a single identity. On the contrary, for such an ethnically and religiously diverse country, there is a surprising level of national identity.


Most of the very frequent users of this site, and most of the moderators, including me, who provide a lot of the content here, are Americans

That's not true. There are only two American moderators: you and Jovialis. Bicicleur and I are Belgian. Pax Augusta is Italian. LeBrok is Polish-Canadian. Ygorcs is Brazilian.


we're sick of certain European members constantly posting anti-American content based on an abysmal lack of knowledge of how things work in America.

I have not seen anything anti-American in this thread. I don't even understand why you are getting so worked up. What we are saying is public knowledge and is not controversial (at least I thought).

Jovialis
19-04-21, 20:37
We Spaniards are not very proud of our behavior in the past, in our former colonies we had 16 racial castes starting with white European (born in Spain), Criollos (white descendant of Spaniards but born in America) and followed by mestizos, mulattos, cuarterones, pardos, blacks, Indians etc. .... These classifications are still present in Cuba and in the rest of the American countries, in fact, except for Peru, Bolivia and some other Central American countries, no other country has managed to have indigenous presidents after 200 years of independence, that is to say, the white Criollos continue to maintain power without caring about the consequences of poverty and social injustice.Then you are right, within the Hispanic community there is also a lot of racism. BUT

Who is the one who qualifies another person as white, what criteria do they use?

No Percentages of Amerindian, black or Jewish blood?

Purity of blood as we did the Spaniards who had to prove that we had no Moorish or Jewish blood in 10 generations to enter the army, the church, be teachers, doctors or civil servants?

Who can say that a Cuban is not white because he has Amerindian or black blood when surely many of those white people of North European descent will have the same percentages (especially those who arrived in the early years of the colony) If these gentlemen met Cameron Diaz on the street, would they say that he is not white despite his Nordic appearance because he has a small percentage of Cuban, Amerindian or black blood? Don't you think it's funny that someone is labeled as belonging to a certain ethnic group simply for speaking Spanish?

I have never really understood why many northern Europeans and their American redneck friends are obsessed with these racial classifications and why they want to monopolize whiteness-Could someone explain it to me?

We Basques have had throughout our history a racist behavior that has been a real disaster. Some ultra-nationalist morons continue to think that some people are superior to others because of their physical appearance, the color of their skin, their craniometry or their hemotypology. I have lost friends and family in terrorist attacks committed by Basque fanatics, simply because our political ideas were different. And they did everything in the name of the Basque people, our language, and our race. I hope we are already vaccinated against violence because we have been in peace for many years.

But that does not mean that we agree with the immigration policies of the European Union, we do not like that foreigners have preference over Spaniards when it comes to receiving social aid or that they are paid houses, subsidies, schools and public health without paying taxes. The European Union is going to commit suicide if it continues to apply these policies.

I think some woke people are more hung-up on percentages than right-wingers. Just take a look at what happened when Elizabeth Warren tried to claim being native American; I recall it was some tiny percent. She was mocked brutally, by the left, and the right.

In fact, the mantra that I hear now from conservatives is that they consider themselves "color-blind", meaning that they only want to judge people by merit. However the new school of thought from the woke left is that race does matter, and to ignore it, is to ignore "white supremacy" and "white privilege".

A woke educator, Barnor Hesse, recently made a chart of 8 white identities, here it is in his words:

https://i.imgur.com/7hnenAp.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Qyds1As.jpg

Being woke means if you are not actively trying to dismantle and abolish whiteness, you have an affinity to "White Supremacy". Treating everyone fairly, and ignoring race only makes you complicit in white supremacy according to people like Hesse.

NYC public school asks parents to 'reflect' on their 'whiteness' (nypost.com) (https://nypost.com/2021/02/16/nyc-public-school-asks-parents-to-reflect-on-their-whiteness/)

Maciamo
19-04-21, 21:04
Thanks, Jovialis. This chart of the 8 white identities is helpful in understanding the issues in American society today. There is no equivalent in Europe. There isn't really a 'white' vs 'coloured' issue in Europe. It is a conflict of values between Western society and the more intransigent and intolerant branches of Islam. Most Europeans know that not all Muslims are against Western values. They also know that Muslims cannot be recognised by the colour of their skin. In the UK for instance, about half of the South Asians are Muslims (mostly Pakistani and Bangladeshi), while the other half are Hindu, Sikh, Jain, Christian or unaffiliated. Black African immigrants are also split between Christians and Muslims (and folk religions, but they are rarer). Even in the Middle East there are quite a few Christians.

So race is not the issue. First it is values. In second place I would say it is the socio-economic levels of recent immigrants. Let's be frank, no country wants to deal with lots of poor and uneducated immigrants. That's why there are criteria of selections for visas. But not so much for refugees, which why the Syrian crisis caused such turmoil.

It is sometimes hard for Europeans to understand the situation in the US as there isn't a huge non-white population in Europe. As of 2021, only 60% of the US population is non-Hispanic white. Non-whites make up only 2% of Europe's population if we consider Arabs and Berbers as white. Non-whites are mostly Black Africans, and they are distributed very unevenly across the continent. There are almost none in the former Eastern Bloc, but 5.5 million in France (out of 12.5 million in all Europe). That's 8.5% of the French population and that's the closest it gets to the USA.

But it is also hard for Americans to understand the conflict with radical Muslims as there is only 1% of Muslims in the US, and most of them are well educated South Asians living around New York or San Francisco with good jobs, not poor, uneducated and radicalised immigrants. Once again the percentages vary widely by country, with hardly any in the former Eastern Bloc except where Islam is the traditional religion. In Western and Northern Europe, most country have around 5-7% of Muslims. The highest percentages are in France (9%), Sweden (8%), Belgium (7.5%) and the Netherlands (7%).

So, two completely different situations in the US and (mostly Western) Europe.

Jovialis
19-04-21, 21:20
Thanks, Jovialis. This chart of the 8 white identities is helpful in understanding the issues in American society today. There is no equivalent in Europe as there isn't really a 'white' vs 'coloured' issue in Europe. It is a conflict of values between Western society and the more intransigent and intolerant branches of Islam. Most Europeans know that not all Muslims are against Western values. They also know that Muslims cannot be recognised by the colour of their skin. In the UK for instance, about half of the South Asians are Muslims (mostly Pakistani and Bangladeshi), while the other half are Hindu, Sikh, Jain, Christian or unaffiliated. Black African immigrants are also split between Christians and Muslims (and folk religions, but they are rarer). Even in the Middle East there are quite a few Christians.

So race is not the issue. First it is values. In second place I would say it is the socio-economic levels of recent immigrants. Let's be frank, no country wants to deal with lots of poor and uneducated immigrants. That's why there are criteria of selections for visas. But not so much for refugees, which why the Syrian crisis caused such turmoil.

From my own anecdotal experience, I feel as though deep down inside, most people, white, black, Hispanic, etc. judge people by their merit, and the content of their character; not their race. The problem in the United States, imo, is that our education system, vapid celebrities, many of our elites, and corporations, promote woke culture. I recall from an article that Angela posted a while ago, that showed only a very small percent of people believe in "political correctness". However, these people are also very influential.

Northener
19-04-21, 21:25
From my own anecdotal experience, I feel as though most people, white, black, Hispanic, etc. just want to judge people by their merit, and not their race. The problem in the United States, imo, is that our education system, some of our elites, and corporations, promote woke culture. I recall from an article that Angela posted a while ago, that showed only a very small percent of people believe in "political correctness". However, these people are also very influential.

I guess I don't really get it yet. Why 'if most people want to judge people by their merit' is there still such a 'racial classification' system? Seems not logic to me....

Jovialis
19-04-21, 21:30
I guess I don't really get it yet. Why 'if most people want to judge people by their merit' is there still such a 'racial classification' system? Seems not logic to me....

I think it should be done away with personally. They are outmoded constructs that are not based on modern science.

When I am asked to declare my ethnicity on forms, I always put that I prefer not to answer. I don't see any benefit for me to give them that information. In fact, it could possibly be used to discriminate against me.

Gaska
19-04-21, 21:59
@Jovialis

I sincerely believe that all Americans (north and south) are truly obsessed with the issue of races because it is a racially heterogeneous continent. I also believe that since the fall of the Berlin Wall and the definitive triumph of capitalism, the left has lost the reference to the class struggle and has to look for other ways of confronting the conservatives. In Europe, a large part of the old voters of the left do not vote for workers' parties but for xenophobic ultra-nationalist parties (National Front, Lega Nord, VOX). The leftists have to look for alternatives to seek votes to hide their failure and since they will not be able to overthrow the European democratic regimes, they have decided to fight them from the institutions developing a new ideology that is inspired by the North American left (which is incongruous, because European leftists have always hated the United States)-Now they are dedicated to supporting the feminist movement (sexism), illegal immigrants, indigenism (repudiating the history of most European countries), homosexuality, minority races (Moors, Arabs, South Americans, Chinese) regional nationalism (northern Italy, Scotland, Flanders, Corsica, Catalonia, Balkans, Macedonia) etc etc, that is, they have looked for new voters and have probably found them.

It does not surprise me therefore that in the USA the left uses “Race does matter”, they are simply looking for votes in social minorities and in self-conscious whites and seek privileges in the education of their children, public health, jobs, salaries, etc. Meanwhile I suppose that the conservatives try to maintain their privileges (as it happens in Europe) and wave the flag of the Mexican, Asian or Arab invasion. I do not know if those racial classifications of the United States census are requested by those minorities to obtain privileges, if so, I think it is an unfair system for all those who do not belong to those minorities. I have already said that in the case of the Hispanic ethnicity it is simply the government's attempt to control a minority that can become a demographic threat.

Here in Spain, people integrate very well, Latin Americans speak Spanish, many are Catholic and just want to work and progress. Many (especially Venezuelans, Peruvians, Mexicans and Cubans) hate the communist regimes that have expelled them from their countries, and many of them even vote for xenophobic parties. It does not matter if they are more or less white, and nobody asks them how they qualify racially, in fact, since they have their origin in former Spanish colonies (including the Philippines and some American states ) they have the privilege of obtaining Spanish nationality in two years.Muslims are poorly integrated and we have suffered horrible terrorist attacks, yet we are proud that there has not been a single xenophobic attack on Magrebies.

Regarding the 8 white identities, I do not think it will ever be a problem for me, because since I am Basque Spaniard and speak Spanish and Euzkera, I suppose that I would have to qualify in the census as Hispanic and therefore I would not be white and would have the right to those minority privileges.

Northener
21-04-21, 13:11
I think some woke people are more hung-up on percentages than right-wingers. Just take a look at what happened when Elizabeth Warren tried to claim being native American; I recall it was some tiny percent. She was mocked brutally, by the left, and the right.

In fact, the mantra that I hear now from conservatives is that they consider themselves "color-blind", meaning that they only want to judge people by merit. However the new school of thought from the woke left is that race does matter, and to ignore it, is to ignore "white supremacy" and "white privilege".

A woke educator, Barnor Hesse, recently made a chart of 8 white identities, here it is in his words:

https://i.imgur.com/7hnenAp.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Qyds1As.jpg

Being woke means if you are not actively trying to dismantle and abolish whiteness, you have an affinity to "White Supremacy". Treating everyone fairly, and ignoring race only makes you complicit in white supremacy according to people like Hesse.

NYC public school asks parents to 'reflect' on their 'whiteness' (nypost.com) (https://nypost.com/2021/02/16/nyc-public-school-asks-parents-to-reflect-on-their-whiteness/)

Indeed Jovialis this is neo-racism. IMO follows a kind of downwards spiral between two extremes.....extreme right wing populist to the extreme woke types. That's the Yugo scenario I was talking about. Let's hope this spiral doesn't get out of control.

Angela had the right quote from Martin Luther King: "Every man should be judged by the content of his character, not the color of his skin".

Ailchu
23-04-21, 03:53
I don't think that's true any more. Over 25% of Switzerland's population is foreign (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Switzerland#Permanent_residents_by _nationality) - one of the highest percentage in Europe and it keeps rising steadily year after year. Add to that about half a million of naturalised citizens. Among those foreigners 16% (so 4% of the total population) are from outside Europe, with the Middle East and Africa on top.

Among the Europeans, many are South Europeans, including 300,000 from ex-Yugoslavia (3.7% of the Swiss population) and 321,000 from Italy (4% of the population).

if you add naturalized people and people with only partial recent foreign ancestry you will be in the 40-50% range. it's a bit ridiculous to bad mouth modern switzerland just because of personal past experiences. Angela said that switzerland has no national feeling that isn't based on ethnicity/language. i think it is rather the opposite, switzerland is a country which can't really have a national feeling that is based on "ethnicity". if it was just for ethnicity/language switzerland would not exist.

Archetype0ne
24-04-21, 02:42
if you add naturalized people and people with only partial recent foreign ancestry you will be in the 40-50% range. it's a bit ridiculous to bad mouth modern switzerland just because of personal past experiences. Angela said that switzerland has no national feeling that isn't based on ethnicity/language. i think it is rather the opposite, switzerland is a country which can't really have a national feeling that is based on "ethnicity". if it was just for ethnicity/language switzerland would not exist.

I feel like the Swiss society seems most influenced by Reformation for some reason. Can not really put my finger on it rhetorically, its just an intuition/ a gut feeling.

Work hard. Save money. Be discrete. Mind your own business.
As a Balkan person I really liked my short stays there, mainly visiting family. Clean, prosperous, cultured. But Holy... They might wanna take a break from working that hard. I thought it was a stereotype of sorts, but these people aren't kidding.

And also, from all the countries I have visited, never saw anywhere foreigners more integrated, and as soon as the very first generation. I guess working hard, making money and minding your business are values most people can subscribe to, regardless of the background. Thinking of it in terms of psychology, it makes sense, you get rewarded to fit in, and it creates a virtuous cycle.

Northener
24-04-21, 11:03
I feel like the Swiss society seems most influenced by Reformation for some reason. Can not really put my finger on it rhetorically, its just an intuition/ a gut feeling.

Work hard. Save money. Be discrete. Mind your own business.
As a Balkan person I really liked my short stays there, mainly visiting family. Clean, prosperous, cultured. But Holy... They might wanna take a break from working that hard. I thought it was a stereotype of sorts, but these people aren't kidding.

And also, from all the countries I have visited, never saw anywhere foreigners more integrated, and as soon as the very first generation. I guess working hard, making money and minding your business are values most people can subscribe to, regardless of the background. Thinking of it in terms of psychology, it makes sense, you get rewarded to fit in, and it creates a virtuous cycle.

Sounds almost like a description of the (old) Dutch culture:grin:

Jovialis
24-04-21, 13:19
@Jovialis

I sincerely believe that all Americans (north and south) are truly obsessed with the issue of races because it is a racially heterogeneous continent. I also believe that since the fall of the Berlin Wall and the definitive triumph of capitalism, the left has lost the reference to the class struggle and has to look for other ways of confronting the conservatives. In Europe, a large part of the old voters of the left do not vote for workers' parties but for xenophobic ultra-nationalist parties (National Front, Lega Nord, VOX). The leftists have to look for alternatives to seek votes to hide their failure and since they will not be able to overthrow the European democratic regimes, they have decided to fight them from the institutions developing a new ideology that is inspired by the North American left (which is incongruous, because European leftists have always hated the United States)-Now they are dedicated to supporting the feminist movement (sexism), illegal immigrants, indigenism (repudiating the history of most European countries), homosexuality, minority races (Moors, Arabs, South Americans, Chinese) regional nationalism (northern Italy, Scotland, Flanders, Corsica, Catalonia, Balkans, Macedonia) etc etc, that is, they have looked for new voters and have probably found them.

It does not surprise me therefore that in the USA the left uses “Race does matter”, they are simply looking for votes in social minorities and in self-conscious whites and seek privileges in the education of their children, public health, jobs, salaries, etc. Meanwhile I suppose that the conservatives try to maintain their privileges (as it happens in Europe) and wave the flag of the Mexican, Asian or Arab invasion. I do not know if those racial classifications of the United States census are requested by those minorities to obtain privileges, if so, I think it is an unfair system for all those who do not belong to those minorities. I have already said that in the case of the Hispanic ethnicity it is simply the government's attempt to control a minority that can become a demographic threat.

Here in Spain, people integrate very well, Latin Americans speak Spanish, many are Catholic and just want to work and progress. Many (especially Venezuelans, Peruvians, Mexicans and Cubans) hate the communist regimes that have expelled them from their countries, and many of them even vote for xenophobic parties. It does not matter if they are more or less white, and nobody asks them how they qualify racially, in fact, since they have their origin in former Spanish colonies (including the Philippines and some American states ) they have the privilege of obtaining Spanish nationality in two years.Muslims are poorly integrated and we have suffered horrible terrorist attacks, yet we are proud that there has not been a single xenophobic attack on Magrebies.

Regarding the 8 white identities, I do not think it will ever be a problem for me, because since I am Basque Spaniard and speak Spanish and Euzkera, I suppose that I would have to qualify in the census as Hispanic and therefore I would not be white and would have the right to those minority privileges.

I think only very dumb people would think that here. However, those are also the kind of people that are likely to be racist (Both white power and woke)

Gaska
26-04-21, 16:01
I think only very dumb people would think that here. However, those are also the kind of people that are likely to be racist (Both white power and woke)


There are ignorant people in every country, but in any case, I myself prefer to be considered Hispanic or Non white, because I feel much closer to a Mexican, an Argentinean or a Puerto Rican than to an Anglo-Saxon from New England because culturally they are much closer to us. I don't care if those ignorant people consider that Cubans, Mexicans or Argentines are not white because they have a small percentage of Amerindian blood. Nor do I care if they are conservatives or leftists. What strikes me is that they force people at schools to racially classify their children. This is supposedly done to better distribute aid to those who need it most (I would like to think that we are talking about an altruistic policy) but in reality it hides a terrible fear of losing the power they have enjoyed for 200 years.

It reminds me of the policy of the Spanish Monarchy in the American colonies, where the Italians, Greeks, Portuguese, French, Flemish or Irish who emigrated were not considered white peninsulars (Spaniards), even if they were natives of Spanish territories such as Sicily, Naples, Franche-Comté, Flanders etc, but were separated into different groups where they had to state their nationality, race, physical characteristics (scars, height, hair and eye color), purity of blood, occupation. The consequence is that they were always considered second-class citizens (as if they were moors or jews) by the local authorities.

American
26-04-21, 20:32
I was for a while "liberal" if anything mainly for economic reasons, but I can no longer tolerate this. Trump is out of office, so most crazy and over-the-top nonsense from the right no longer matters to me. I want public healthcare and higher corporate taxes, but at this point the Democrats are giving up on those things to fight a culture war that will either be crushed, or trigger a civil war, which they will inevitably lose anyway. I do not want woke garbage being taught in schools, and will cross party lines to vote against it.

Many Europeans I talk to seem to regard 'Blue' America as more similar to Europe in values and culture, and therefore preferable. Such people make the same naïve mistake as classical liberals and rationalists whose only involvement politically is fear of 'Red' America's hostility towards knowledge and critical thinking. Yet there are so many warning that the expert class in Blue America is compromised by woke ideology, and too many liberals cover their ears and refuse to listen. The fact that people like Anderson Cooper tolerate, platform, and then repeat this crap on a daily basis should delegitimize them.

Jovialis
26-04-21, 23:02
There are ignorant people in every country, but in any case, I myself prefer to be considered Hispanic or Non white, because I feel much closer to a Mexican, an Argentinean or a Puerto Rican than to an Anglo-Saxon from New England because culturally they are much closer to us. I don't care if those ignorant people consider that Cubans, Mexicans or Argentines are not white because they have a small percentage of Amerindian blood. Nor do I care if they are conservatives or leftists. What strikes me is that they force people at schools to racially classify their children. This is supposedly done to better distribute aid to those who need it most (I would like to think that we are talking about an altruistic policy) but in reality it hides a terrible fear of losing the power they have enjoyed for 200 years.
It reminds me of the policy of the Spanish Monarchy in the American colonies, where the Italians, Greeks, Portuguese, French, Flemish or Irish who emigrated were not considered white peninsulars (Spaniards), even if they were natives of Spanish territories such as Sicily, Naples, Franche-Comté, Flanders etc, but were separated into different groups where they had to state their nationality, race, physical characteristics (scars, height, hair and eye color), purity of blood, occupation. The consequence is that they were always considered second-class citizens (as if they were moors or jews) by the local authorities.

I always found it nice to find commonality with people. Especially if they come from different backgrounds. I grew up in a majority Hispanic area. I think I had more Hispanic friends, than I did from other ethnic groups. For me, race and ethnicity absolutely does not matter in my inter-personal relationships. Which is why I resent the divisive woke rethoric. From my anecdotal experience, most Hispanics are definitely not woke. Moreover, this new-speech woke academics are promoting is totally manufactured, they now call them "Latinx" as to make it gender-neutral. Which is completely foolish and unnecessary.