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SUPREEEEEME
10-04-21, 21:18
Hi all!

I am a new member to this forum - but I am active on others. I feel that this forum would benefit from an up-to-date take on J-L70. For those interested, I do have threads dedicated to J-L70 on Anthrogenica that have evolved over time - but I'm not sure on the stance of posting links from other forums, so I will refrain from doing so.

As many of you are aware, J-L70 is a very widely spread branch of J2a. This has led to some controversy of where it originated, spread from, and so on.

So I'll start with where is J-L70 most common?

I have taken the liberty of gathering data from FamilyTreeDNA - and have reasonably large sample sizes, so these figures are likely a good reflection of J-L70's distribution in these regions. No surprise, J-L70 is most common in the Central-East Mediterranean and the Near East. These are the regions with the greatest frequencies:

Syria: 3.34% (12/359)
Italy and Malta: 3.19% (97/3040)
Lebanon: 2.12% (9/424)
Palestinian Territories: 2% (4/200)
Jordan: 1.64% (3/183)
Turkey: 1.53% (13/847) -- out of interest, quite a decent chunk are Armenians
Iraq: 1.52% (18/1184)
Greece: 1.47% (10/682)
Armenia: 1.25% (7/562)

As for which individual group has the most J-L70, it would be the Djerban Cohanim (~60%), limited to one subclade.

As we head away from these regions, we find the frequency of J-L70 drop dramatically, with most of Europe, North Africa, the Caucasus, Arabia, Central Asia etc... being <0.5%.

Within Italy, we do notice a trend of J-L70 being more common in Central Italy and Sicily/Southern Italy than the north - and there may be a reason for this, which I'll get to.

In J-L70, we find virtually all branches have a close Near Eastern relative.

The next question to address is where is J-L70 most diverse?

Here we find a pretty stark contrast between two regions and the rest of the world. The two regions with the greatest branch diversity by far are the Levant and Italy. Considering Italy's history, their diversity makes sense in context. As for the Levant, the diversity is striking given the lower levels of testing in this region, as compared to Italy and the rest of Europe

The next question to address is where did J-L70 likely originate and spread from?

The only thing we can say with utmost certainty is that J-L70 originated and spread from the Near East. Now as for specifically where, the two options that hold weight are the Levant (more so the north) and Anatolia (more so the east).

From what I have researched, a Levantine origin for J-L70 carries the most evidence, but should this not come to fruition (for whatever reason), an origin in East Anatolia would likely be the next best guess. A Levantine origin for J-L70 makes the most sense given the great branch diversity, higher frequencies than other regions, and presence of several layers of Basal branches (J-L70* in Jordan, J-FT340863 in an Sinai Egyptian and Palestinian, J-Z387* in several Sephardic Jews, and two different J-FGC35503* branches in Lebanon). Should J-L70 not originate in the Levant, this is all very coincidental. The nail on the hammer for a Levantine origin for J-L70 are the 15 distinct, distant Jewish branches. No similarly aged clade has as many distinct Jewish lineages - save for perhaps J-Y2919, but that's 600 years older. These Jewish branches are spread throughout J-L70's phylogeny, and are present in the following groups: Ashkenazi Jews, Sephardic Jews (Spain, Portugal, Italy), Sephardic Jews (Balkans, Turkey), Libyan Jews, Tunisian Jews, Djerban Cohanim, New World Conversos, Canadian Anousim, Moroccan Jews, Algerian Jews, Mountain Jews, Bukharan Jews, Italian Conversos, and Romaniote Jews. Not to mention that there are individuals from all 3 major branches of J-L70 (i.e. J-Z2177, J-CTS3601, J-PH3882) who are Cohanim. Considering Jews are a very endogamous group, and considering most conversions were on the female line, this suggests to me that the TMRCA of J-Z2148 was related to the ancestral population of all these Jewish groups in some way.

Now what about Anatolia? Anatolia doesn't display the same diversity as the Levant, nor the same level of Basal branches given similar levels of testing. The sheer number of Jewish branches contradicts an Anatolian origin. A notion of J-L70 originating in Anatolia, with some branches going to the Levant and some going to Europe isn't supported by the phylogeny we see.

What about J-Z387? J-Z387's TMRCA (7100 ybp) may be congruent with the first infusion of Late Neolithic Mesopotamians into the Levant or signals the adoption of Afroasiatic speech. An origin in Mesopotamia would make the most sense.

An origin for J-L70 amongst Romans or Greeks does not make any sense - especially given that the expansions of these civilizations occurred after J-L70's expansion period (when the greatest diversification of branches occurred). But that doesn't mean they weren't partially responsible for it's spread. Meanwhile J-L70's expansion period does correspond with the commercial prosperity of the cities of the northern Levant, with trade likely being key to J-L70's growth.

I believe J-L70 originated in Syria.

How did J-L70 spread?

There are likely many sources attributable to J-L70's spread. The primary force to Europe was likely the Syrian Auxiliaries. Much of the J-L70 we find in continental Europe and the British Isles is more than likely attributable to them. The regional trends we see do correspond with where these groups wound up. The other forces were likely less significant, being the Jewish Diaspora (for the branches surrounding existing Jewish branches), the Phoenicians (we see similar trends with other clades associated with the Phoenicians), the Greeks (via Anatolia), and the Aghlabid Dynasty (responsible for J-FGC32147 in Sicily) to name a few. Most of the J-L70 in Europe likely arrived during the Roman Period, with Rome seeing the branches spread throughout.

When it comes to Italy, I mentioned earlier that we see clear spikes in Central Italy and Southern Italy. Central Italy is likely attributed to an influx of Near Eastern ancestry during Imperial Rome. As for Sicily, J-Z387 is the highest in areas of Phoenician settlement (Mazara del Vallo and Trapani) but does display higher frequencies on the rest of the island as well. As mentioned J-FGC32147 in Sicily is more than likely attributed to the Bani Tamim (Aghlabid Dynasty).

As more how it spread throughout the Near East (which occurred before it spread to Europe), I imagine groups like the Hittites, Egyptians, Assyrians, and Amorites are all responsible for it's spread throughout.

Azzurro
10-04-21, 22:02
Absolutely wonderful post, this is how you do research, especially for Y dna.

kingjohn
10-04-21, 23:16
Interesting :good_job:
I could not ignore the connection in %
Between syria and italy/malta :thinking:
You can also add greek cypriots 31/629 4.9% :cool-v:
From this paper:
https://dumas.ccsd.cnrs.fr/ANTHROPO-MARSEILLE/hal-01273302v1
P.s
I recognized j-L70 by j-z387 downstream
And dys445=6

brick
10-04-21, 23:39
On Y-full in addition to Italians and Greeks, among the J-L70 there are also English, Irish, Scottish, Polish, Bulgarian, Swiss-German, Portuguese, Spanish, German, Albanian, Austrian, Ukrainian, Swedish, Belgian, Dutch, French, Lithuanian, Belorussian, Czech users. Actually, the area of its distribution in Europe is wider than the Roman Empire, I have doubts all of J-L70 can be attributed to the Roman imperial era. Since many areas of Europe are not yet heavily sampled, it is possible that it is a bit more widespread in Europe than we think. A Viking (VK42) from Sweden is also J-L70.

brick
11-04-21, 00:12
Most of the Central and Eastern European members you mentioned are Jews.

Was the Viking also a Jew? You can't be sure of that.

Jovialis
11-04-21, 00:36
Was the Viking also a Jew? You can't be sure of that.

These people are from Anthrogenica, they attribute everything to that.

Azzurro
11-04-21, 01:35
These people are from Anthrogenica, they attribute everything to that.

That’s not even close to being true, look at OP’s post, he listed several alternatives.

Angela
11-04-21, 01:54
Everything is to prove that some Jews or other Middle Easterners settled in Italy and left some y Dna behind. Whoop-de-doo. Can you imagine obsessing over crap like this?

Get a life, boys, if there is even more than one of you. Find a girl or a boy or another hobby. This is SO BORING! I come here less and less frequently because there's hardly anybody producing interesting content, or intelligent discussion. Pretty soon it's going to be like theapricity around here, with Sickeliot and his socks talking to each other and upvoting each other. :)

Angela
11-04-21, 02:17
Just a comment in the interests of science and the reputation of this site.

Since when are samples which are collected by some unknown hobbyist from anthrogenica with who knows what agenda from consumer sites which can in no way be considered representative samples because they are self-selected be used to prove absolutely anything???

You want a "REVIEW"; you want a DISCUSSION??

Fine, then present data from scientific papers, which means scientific samples of representative data which can be TRUSTED, not this junk. That is, if you even know what scientific sampling is all about and why it's all that can be trusted.

Until then, prepare to be ignored by everyone except your socks.

SUPREEEEEME
11-04-21, 12:34
Interesting :good_job:
I could not ignore the connection in %
Between syria and italy/malta :thinking:
You can also add greek cypriots 31/629 4.9% :cool-v:
From this paper:
P.s
I recognized j-L70 by j-z387 downstream
And dys445=6

Thanks - I have seen this paper before!

The issue that arises, is that most of these studies test for DYS445=6, which is a characteristic of all of J-Z387. So when a study does present data, it is reasonable to assume we're looking at a mix of J-L70 and J-FGC35503 - whereas my data is exclusively J-L70. Unfortunately in FTDNA's case, they don't have an adequate number of Cypriots tested.

Generally most of these studies have pretty small sample sizes (not the case for your Cypriot figure!), which is an additional limitation.

SUPREEEEEME
11-04-21, 12:51
On Y-full in addition to Italians and Greeks, among the J-L70 there are also English, Scottish, Polish, Bulgarian, Swiss-German, Portuguese, Spanish, German, Albanian, Austrian, Ukrainian, Swedish, Belgian, Dutch, French, Lithuanian, Belorussian, Czech. Actually, the area of its distribution in Europe is wider than the Roman Empire, I have doubts all of J-L70 can be attributed to the Roman imperial era. Since many areas of Europe are not yet heavily sampled, it is possible that it is a bit more widespread in Europe than we think. A Viking (VK42) from Sweden is also J-L70.

Indeed, J-L70 is found throughout Western Eurasia. One of the noticeable things we see is that there are Near Easterners, Mediterranean, and non-Mediterranean Europeans at virtually all levels of the phylogeny. This suggests that J-L70 diversified amongst a certain culture, or in a certain region, before spreading. The majority of J-L70 in Eastern Europe is Ashkenazi Jewish (since Ashkenazim are a heavily tested population). However, I'm pretty confident that most of Europe's J-L70 would have arrived during the Roman Period. I'm not sure how else a young, widespread MENA clade would spread to Europe otherwise.

The J-L70 Viking, from the supplementary data of the paper, was around ~20% Southern European. I think it would be reasonable to assume his line arrived from the south.

kingjohn
11-04-21, 13:18
My closest k12b ancient
is R136 late antiquity:thinking:
Thanks to your thread i now see
He falls in j-L70 branch :cool-v:
https://yfull.com/tree/J-BY242*/

P.s
I understand your remarks on the cyprus study

SUPREEEEEME
11-04-21, 13:20
Just a comment in the interests of science and the reputation of this site.

Since when are samples which are collected by some unknown hobbyist from anthrogenica with who knows what agenda from consumer sites which can in no way be considered representative samples because they are self-selected be used to prove absolutely anything???

You want a "REVIEW"; you want a DISCUSSION??

Fine, then present data from scientific papers, which means scientific samples of representative data which can be TRUSTED, not this junk. That is, if you even know what scientific sampling is all about and why it's all that can be trusted.

Until then, prepare to be ignored by everyone except your socks.

All samples, whether it's those from FamilyTreeDNA, or from a scientific paper, will face sampling risk. It's inherent. Since there is a limited amount of data for J-L70 in terms of frequencies (most studies test for J-Z387, since DYS445=6 isn't exclusively J-L70), I took it upon myself to at least make some progress for this understudied branch. As of yet, we don't have a study that sets out to find an unbiased origin for J-L70, but should a paper come out that specifically looks at J-L70 in all of it's aspects(which would be great!), they will similarly face the risk that their sample is not representative. I just simply found all the publicly available J-L70 members from specific countries (via match lists, projects, and the haplotree) which is currently the "best" data we have about J-L70's distribution.

Another thing worth mentioning, is that I posted the figures I have merely for everyone else's benefit, due to the lack thereof regarding J-L70. The conclusion of an origin for J-L70 in the Levant is largely unaffected by it's frequency - we're mostly focusing on it's diversity, Basal branches, and large Jewish presence (not to mention certain historical events and periods do coincide with the dates we see) which provides far more evidence than a frequency ever could (given limitations such as lack of representation, founder effects, and so on).

Given your reservations, could you kindly link existing Eupedia threads relating to J-L70 that meet your scientific standard, so I can get a sense of what you consider to be "interesting content, or intelligent discussion".

Thanks

SUPREEEEEME
11-04-21, 13:23
My closest k12b ancient
is R136 late antiquity:thinking:
Thanks to your thread i now see
He falls in j-L70 branch :cool-v:


Yes! Given where he falls and those surrounding, I wouldn't be too surprised if his line made it's way north into Anatolia, and was then picked up from there, making it's way to Rome.

brick
11-04-21, 16:29
Indeed, J-L70 is found throughout Western Eurasia. One of the noticeable things we see is that there are Near Easterners, Mediterranean, and non-Mediterranean Europeans at virtually all levels of the phylogeny. This suggests that J-L70 diversified amongst a certain culture, or in a certain region, before spreading. The majority of J-L70 in Eastern Europe is Ashkenazi Jewish (since Ashkenazim are a heavily tested population). However, I'm pretty confident that most of Europe's J-L70 would have arrived during the Roman Period. I'm not sure how else a young, widespread MENA clade would spread to Europe otherwise.

The J-L70 Viking, from the supplementary data of the paper, was around ~20% Southern European. I think it would be reasonable to assume his line arrived from the south.


J-L70 is older and predates the Ashkenazi Jews, the Semites, and the Roman Imperial period.

brick
11-04-21, 17:15
The MRCA does not predate Semites.

There is no consensus on the location of the Proto-Semitic Urheimat and its dating as there is no consensus that J2a is Proto-Semitic. So J-L70 may have arrived there later and not be part originally of the Proto-Semites.

SUPREEEEEME
11-04-21, 17:15
J-L70 is older and predates the Ashkenazi Jews, the Semites, and the Roman Imperial period.

I describe J-L70 as young, since given it's wide distribution, a TMRCA of 3800 ybp is indeed young for such a distribution to be achieved.

SUPREEEEEME
11-04-21, 17:19
There is no consensus on the location of the Proto-Semitic Urheimat and its dating as there is no consensus that J2a is Proto-Semitic. So J-L70 may have arrived there later and not be part originally of the Proto-Semites.

It wouldn't be too surprising for *J-Z387 to have been associated with Proto-Semitic, Proto-West Semitic, or Proto-Central Semitic.

brick
11-04-21, 17:22
It wouldn't be too surprising for *J-Z387 to have been associated with the Proto-Semitic, Proto-West Semitic, or Proto-Central Semitic.

Who were the Proto-Semites and where were they located?

Azzurro
11-04-21, 19:00
There is no consensus on the location of the Proto-Semitic Urheimat and its dating as there is no consensus that J2a is Proto-Semitic. So J-L70 may have arrived there later and not be part originally of the Proto-Semites.

well we know of 2 Semitic branches that have been found in many sites, J1-Z1853 and J2b-M205, the tmrca of those branches suggest a Proto Semitic timeframe to be anywhere from 7100-5900 ybp.

SUPREEEEEME
11-04-21, 19:10
well we know of 2 Semitic branches that have been found in many sites, J1-Z1853 and J2b-M205, the tmrca of those branches suggest a Proto Semitic timeframe to be anywhere from 7100-5900 ybp.

And to add, J-Z387's TMRCA fits.

Azzurro
11-04-21, 20:32
https://youtu.be/HCyzGuipTd4

How do I make the video visible and not a link?

Azzurro
11-04-21, 21:02
My closest k12b ancient
is R136 late antiquity:thinking:
Thanks to your thread i now see
He falls in j-L70 branch :cool-v:
https://yfull.com/tree/J-BY242*/
P.s
I understand your remarks on the cyprus study

That is interesting how close are you distance wise to R136?

Azzurro
11-04-21, 21:04
Thanks - I have seen this paper before!

The issue that arises, is that most of these studies test for DYS445=6, which is a characteristic of all of J-Z387. So when a study does present data, it is reasonable to assume we're looking at a mix of J-L70 and J-FGC35503 - whereas my data is exclusively J-L70. Unfortunately in FTDNA's case, they don't have an adequate number of Cypriots tested.

Generally most of these studies have pretty small sample sizes (not the case for your Cypriot figure!), which is an additional limitation.

You know in an era where NGS testing is the new norm, hopefully we can see a revisiting of these older studies and see some snp testing, to see which branches proliferated where. The Cypriot paper was an exception to being an excellent str study.

Azzurro
11-04-21, 21:10
Was the Viking also a Jew? You can't be sure of that.

He didn’t even imply that, the viking was likely a descendant of someone from the South, like @Supreme said the sample had 20% Southern Euro like dna. L70 in Central, North and Western Europe is likely/possibly all attributable to Imperial Rome.

kingjohn
11-04-21, 21:25
That is interesting how close are you distance wise to R136?

pretty close below 5:smile:
( but most of my ancestery is western jewish):thinking:





Distance to:
adam


3.30708331
R136_Imperial_Era_Marcellino_&_Pietro


3.49104569
R1544_Imperial_Era_Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese


4.61632971
R64_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


4.68362039
R436_Imperial_Era_Palestrina


4.75920161
R53_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


4.95236307
R54_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


5.03863077
R114_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis


5.11934566
R57_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


5.58374426
R65_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


5.93626987
R973_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti


6.42969673
R35_Late_Antiquity_Celio


6.58944611
R50_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necropolis


6.64663073
R49_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necropolis


6.99081540
CrusaderKnightApuliaAbruzzoLebanonCrusaderSI53


7.06589697
R58_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


7.10295713
R56_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


7.28116749
R60_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


7.35566448
R122_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


7.45313357
R1548_Imperial_Era_Monterotondo


7.53091628
R59_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


7.54059016
R117_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


7.90899488
R115_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis


7.94520610
R47_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necropolis


7.97989348
R1290_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


8.02450622
R121_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia

Azzurro
11-04-21, 22:18
pretty close below 5:smile:
( but most of my ancestery is western jewish):thinking:





Distance to:
adam


3.30708331
R136_Imperial_Era_Marcellino_&_Pietro


3.49104569
R1544_Imperial_Era_Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese


4.61632971
R64_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


4.68362039
R436_Imperial_Era_Palestrina


4.75920161
R53_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


4.95236307
R54_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


5.03863077
R114_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis


5.11934566
R57_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


5.58374426
R65_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


5.93626987
R973_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti


6.42969673
R35_Late_Antiquity_Celio


6.58944611
R50_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necropolis


6.64663073
R49_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necropolis


6.99081540
CrusaderKnightApuliaAbruzzoLebanonCrusaderSI53


7.06589697
R58_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


7.10295713
R56_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


7.28116749
R60_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


7.35566448
R122_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


7.45313357
R1548_Imperial_Era_Monterotondo


7.53091628
R59_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


7.54059016
R117_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


7.90899488
R115_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis


7.94520610
R47_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necropolis


7.97989348
R1290_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


8.02450622
R121_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia




I know your Syrian Jewish, Sephardi and Ashkenazi right? With some Bulgarian?

This makes sense, this sample based on examination looks to be half Southern Italian and half Cappadocian Greek like, so exactly what’d you’d expect on the East Med continuum, where Southern Italians, Western Jews, Greek Islanders and Cypriots plot.

Don’t know if its controversial here to say we are all in the same cluster.

Azzurro
11-04-21, 22:25
I already got 4 infractions in one afternoon KingJohn your talking to a Eupedia’s most wanted

You don’t want to upset the mods you know!

They already banned Swiss Cheese guy wasn’t even here long enough for coffee.

Azzurro
11-04-21, 22:38
Everything is to prove that some Jews or other Middle Easterners settled in Italy and left some y Dna behind. Whoop-de-doo. Can you imagine obsessing over crap like this?

Get a life, boys, if there is even more than one of you. Find a girl or a boy or another hobby. This is SO BORING! I come here less and less frequently because there's hardly anybody producing interesting content, or intelligent discussion. Pretty soon it's going to be like theapricity around here, with Sickeliot and his socks talking to each other and upvoting each other. :)

Your the best you know that 👌🏼

kingjohn
11-04-21, 22:59
I know your Syrian Jewish, Sephardi and Ashkenazi right? With some Bulgarian?
This makes sense, this sample based on examination looks to be half Southern Italian and half Cappadocian Greek like, so exactly what’d you’d expect on the East Med continuum, where Southern Italians, Western Jews, Greek Islanders and Cypriots plot.
Don’t know if its controversial here to say we are all in the same cluster.

Yes i think r136 is belong to the C5 cluster
The east med one :cool-v:

P.s
I started to not write the mizrahi( in my signiture)
Since i score less than 2% mizrahi cluster
In my origins 3.0
same goes for my father who score the same extremely low % .

Azzurro
11-04-21, 23:00
Yes i think r136 is belong to the C5 cluster
The east med one
P.s
I started to not write the mizrahi( in my signiture)
Since i score less than 2% mizrahi cluster
In my origins 3.0
same goes for my father who score the same extremely low % .

Your thinking the Syrian Jewish side might be Sephardi origin?

kingjohn
11-04-21, 23:05
Your thinking the Syrian Jewish side might be Sephardi origin?

Yes mostly ( i also see it in my father matches
The non -aschenazi matches are with mexican and latin americans)
Buttom line i think syrian jews are different autosomally from iraqi jews
I thonk They cluster more with cyprus.....:thinking:

Azzurro
11-04-21, 23:09
Yes mostly ( i also see it in my father matches
The non -aschenazi matches are with mexican and latin americans)
Buttom line i think syrian jews are different autosomally from iraqi jews
I thonk They cluster more with cyprus.....:thinking:

It will probably depend on the individual community,
some Syrian Must’Arabi communities might be even more classical shifted like Samaritans Druze, and Lebanese.

Ralphie Boy
11-04-21, 23:26
I find this interesting, as one of my great-grandfathers was J2a-L70 (Greece). Our subclade is unknown, unfortunately. YFull has several L70 samples in the south Balkans: Albania, Bulgaria and Greece. Some or most of these have pretty old TMRCA’s. The autosomal test of this relative showed mostly south Balkans and some Italy, but that’s only from the last few hundred years. It would be interesting to know if the Romans brought it to the region. or if any of these branches went to Italy from the Balkans (or both).

kingjohn
11-04-21, 23:36
It will probably depend on the individual community,
some Syrian Must’Arabi communities might be even more classical shifted like Samaritans Druze, and Lebanese.

Yes
For sure
From my memory of aleppo jew kit
Back in the day it cluster with
cyprus :cool-v:
It could be that damascus jews are more eastern

P.s
My father score 7% maltese cluster there is got to be some
Med genes that he got from his dad...:thinking:
He also pass this maltese cluster to me
my mom don't score it at all

kingjohn
11-04-21, 23:51
I find this interesting, as one of my great-grandfathers was J2a-L70 (Greece). Our subclade is unknown, unfortunately. YFull has several L70 samples in the south Balkans: Albania, Bulgaria and Greece. Some or most of these have pretty old TMRCA’s. The autosomal test of this relative showed mostly south Balkans and some Italy, but that’s only from the last few hundred years. It would be interesting to know if the Romans brought it to the region. or if any of these branches went to Italy from the Balkans (or both).

Maybe it spread to rest of europe
With the expansion of the roman empire:thinking:

Azzurro
12-04-21, 00:13
I find this interesting, as one of my great-grandfathers was J2a-L70 (Greece). Our subclade is unknown, unfortunately. YFull has several L70 samples in the south Balkans: Albania, Bulgaria and Greece. Some or most of these have pretty old TMRCA’s. The autosomal test of this relative showed mostly south Balkans and some Italy, but that’s only from the last few hundred years. It would be interesting to know if the Romans brought it to the region. or if any of these branches went to Italy from the Balkans (or both).

Have you gotten your great grandfather’s Y tested through ftdna? There are currently several Greek lines under L70, with a couple under Z40772 and under Z2177. A lot of it is still mysterious for L70, ancient dna will provide the answer, I think its possible and likely some of the L70 in Greece could be as old as Iron Age, have you tested any deeper?

Ralphie Boy
12-04-21, 01:49
Have you gotten your great grandfather’s Y tested through ftdna? There are currently several Greek lines under L70, with a couple under Z40772 and under Z2177. A lot of it is still mysterious for L70, ancient dna will provide the answer, I think its possible and likely some of the L70 in Greece could be as old as Iron Age, have you tested any deeper?

There has not been a deeper test, to my knowledge, only the basal clade L70 found at 23andMe. I only recently started to learn about the branch and am grateful to those who can do deep dives and report their findings.
12626

Azzurro
12-04-21, 03:22
There has not been a deeper test, to my knowledge, only the basal clade L70 found at 23andMe. I only recently started to learn about the branch and am grateful to those who can do deep dives and report their findings.
12626

Have tried using Morley to see if any snps are called? I am not sure if 23&me tests any downstream snps of L70, I know the Old Nat Geo used to test. All depends on how much more information you want to know on this lineage, I would give Morley a try or upload the kit to Ftdna.

kingjohn
12-04-21, 06:37
This is the other dude
From moots paper
1480-1490 Ad renaissance :cool-v:
https://yfull.com/tree/J-Z32056/
He cluster with south french provence autosomally

SUPREEEEEME
12-04-21, 08:13
This is the other dude
From moots paper
1480-1490 Ad renaissance :cool-v:
He cluster with south french provence autosomally

That branch, J-FGC32147, wouldn't surprise me if it were early Arab. As mentioned in my first post, it's presence in Sicily could easily be attributable to the Aghlabid Dynasty. Perhaps this Roman is paternally descended from a Nabatean or an Aramean?

kingjohn
12-04-21, 11:23
To which branch of j2 the neolithic italian(from moots paper)
Belong ?
Is he that distant branch from j-L70?

SUPREEEEEME
12-04-21, 11:37
To which branch of j2 the neolithic italian(from moots paper)
Belong ?
Is he that distant branch from j-L70?

There were only 3 samples from Antonio et al that were J-L70 - 2 from the Middle Ages, and one from Late Antiquity. This admittedly doesn't tell us much.

kingjohn
12-04-21, 13:59
There were only 3 samples from Antonio et al that were J-L70 - 2 from the Middle Ages, and one from Late Antiquity. This admittedly doesn't tell us much.

I am speaking about R19 from moots paper
It is a neolithic dude :thinking:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y17947*/

Since i am not familier with j2 tree structure
I am asking how distant R19 branch
From j-L70 branch in the j2 tree ?


P.s
There was even neolithic LbK austrian j2 remain
So it look to me that some j2 branches were present in europe for a long time

SUPREEEEEME
12-04-21, 14:39
I am speaking about R19 from moots paper
It is a neolithic dude :thinking:
Since i am not familier with j2 tree structure
I am asking how distant R19 branch
From j-L70 branch in the j2 tree ?


Ah okay! This branch is very far from J-L70. The most recent shared marker between the two is J-PF5087 - with a TMRCA of 15 700 ybp.



P.s
There was even neolithic LbK austrian j2 remain
So it look to me that some j2 branches were present in europe for a long time

For sure, there are branches of J2 that have an old presence in Europe - it's just that J-L70 isn't one of them (at least not as old as Neolithic - in any case, J-L70 is too young). As Azzurro suggests, there exists the possibility that J-L70 may have been present amongst Iron Age Greeks (I assume picked up in Anatolia), which would probably be the earliest case of J-L70 in Europe. Either that or via the Phoenicians.

kingjohn
12-04-21, 17:37
15,700 ybp thats very old connection
Indeed...:thinking:
What is your thought about this
https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y24651*/
Sardinia and albania tmrca 900bc maybe
Iron age migration ?

P.s
There also 2 other sardinians in other branches
Under j-L70....
What is the source in your opinion greeks, pheonicians ?

Azzurro
12-04-21, 17:59
15,700 ybp thats very old connection
Indeed...:thinking:
What is your thought about this
https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y24651*/
Sardinia and albania tmrca 900bc maybe
Iron age migration ?

P.s
There also 2 other sardinians in other branches
Under j-L70....
What is the source in your opinion greeks, pheonicians ?

Currently the 2 J2a samples found in Neolithic Italy, are the one you posted and J-Y29673 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y29677/. If you look at https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y17947/ the downstream clade has been found in Hittite/Hattian samples, so the one from Ripabianca di Monterado could be a dead end, the other J2a branch is still currently found in Italians and seems to even have a hot spot near le Marche and Abruzzo so not far from its Neolithic ancestor. J-SK1336 can be broadly associated as an Aegean marker, we’ll see if some survival branches exist from R19.

As for L70, it is widely expanded, the Greek source if native would likely be a late Bronze Age Anatolian influx. Ultimately based on its spread it can almost be assumed that it existed in and was native to several cultures from the Levant to the Aegean imho.

kingjohn
12-04-21, 18:12
Some j-L70 cases from albanian dna project
Rrenjet ::cool-v:
Tiranë Tiranë Shqipëri J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70
Tiranë Tiranë Shqipëri J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70
Korçë Korçë Shqipëri J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70
Pogradec Korçë Shqipëri J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70
Korçë Korçë Shqipëri J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70>Z2148
Tiranë Tiranë Shqipëri J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70>Z2148
Fan Mirditë Lezhë Shqipëri J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70>Z2148>Y24651
Fan Mirditë Lezhë Shqipëri J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70>Z2148>Y24651
Fan Mirditë Lezhë Shqipëri J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70>Z2148>Y24651
Fan Mirditë Lezhë Shqipëri J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70>Z2148>Y24651
Fan Mirditë Lezhë Shqipëri J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70>Z2148>Y24651
Dibër Rajoni jugp. Maqedoni J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70>Z2148>Y2
PROJEKTI RRËNJËT

SUPREEEEEME
14-04-21, 09:19
Some j-L70 cases from albanian dna project
Rrenjet ::cool-v:
Tiranë Tiranë Shqipëri J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70
Tiranë Tiranë Shqipëri J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70
Korçë Korçë Shqipëri J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70
Pogradec Korçë Shqipëri J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70
Korçë Korçë Shqipëri J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70>Z2148
Tiranë Tiranë Shqipëri J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70>Z2148
Fan Mirditë Lezhë Shqipëri J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70>Z2148>Y24651
Fan Mirditë Lezhë Shqipëri J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70>Z2148>Y24651
Fan Mirditë Lezhë Shqipëri J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70>Z2148>Y24651
Fan Mirditë Lezhë Shqipëri J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70>Z2148>Y24651
Fan Mirditë Lezhë Shqipëri J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70>Z2148>Y24651
Dibër Rajoni jugp. Maqedoni J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70>Z2148>Y2
PROJEKTI RRËNJËT

Thanks for this! This is far better data for Albanians than that available from FTDNA - Albanians appear to have 1.1% J-L70. I imagine some of it could be Greek (?) and some is likely via Syrian Auxiliaries - several of those units were in the Balkans from Antioch, Hem, Itura, and Tyre.

Jovialis
14-04-21, 13:05
Currently the 2 J2a samples found in Neolithic Italy, are the one you posted and J-Y29673 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y29677/. If you look at https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y17947/ the downstream clade has been found in Hittite/Hattian samples, so the one from Ripabianca di Monterado could be a dead end, the other J2a branch is still currently found in Italians and seems to even have a hot spot near le Marche and Abruzzo so not far from its Neolithic ancestor. J-SK1336 can be broadly associated as an Aegean marker, we’ll see if some survival branches exist from R19.

As for L70, it is widely expanded, the Greek source if native would likely be a late Bronze Age Anatolian influx. Ultimately based on its spread it can almost be assumed that it existed in and was native to several cultures from the Levant to the Aegean imho.

I think it ultimately came from the Caucasus region, into Anatolian, not the Levant into Anatolia. If so, it probably came by way of the Bronze Age pulse of Iran_N-like ancestry.

Part of my reasoning:

https://i.imgur.com/5Q1W5XG.png

Only about 5% of LBA Anatolian autosomal DNA is attributed to Levantine Farmers, while over 1/3rd is attributed to Iran/Caucasus.

Azzurro
14-04-21, 16:13
I think it ultimately came from the Caucasus region, into Anatolian, not the Levant into Anatolia. If so, it probably came by way of the Bronze Age pulse of Iran_N-like ancestry.

Part of my reasoning:

https://i.imgur.com/5Q1W5XG.png

Only about 5% of LBA Anatolian autosomal DNA is attributed to Levantine Farmers, while over 1/3rd is attributed to Iran/Caucasus.

I personally doubt it, there are several other J2a branches which fit the Caucasus origin, L70 does not. Most diversity of this clade started in LBA and EIA, so it to be very common and diverse one of the Classic civilizations from the Mediterranean or adjacent region.

Don’t understand why you keep on posting the same exact charts, its not relevant to this exact discussion.

The 5% Levantine Farmer dna in Anatolian BA is not the ‘source’ of Levantine in Italians and Greeks, probably accounts for a little bit.

Jovialis
14-04-21, 16:37
I personally doubt it, there are several other J2a branches which fit the Caucasus origin, L70 does not. Most diversity of this clade started in LBA and EIA, so it to be very common and diverse one of the Classic civilizations from the Mediterranean or adjacent region.

Don’t understand why you keep on posting the same exact charts, its not relevant to this exact discussion.

The 5% Levantine Farmer dna in Anatolian BA is not the ‘source’ of Levantine in Italians and Greeks, probably accounts for a little bit.

Excuse me, this is pertinent to the opinion that you had stated :


Azzurro: "As for L70, it is widely expanded, the Greek source if native would likely be a late Bronze Age Anatolian influx. Ultimately based on its spread it can almost be assumed that it existed in and was native to several cultures from the Levant to the Aegean imho"


The facts remain the same, so the charts remain the same I guess. You are trying to say it came from Anatolia, so I am point out that it is most likely not the case, and a non-starter.

Jovialis
14-04-21, 16:45
Excuse me again, but Southern Italians, and Greeks are not modeled with Levantine from what I see. Could you please clarify which study proposes this, and how much of it exists?:

https://i.imgur.com/hncKQqR.png

https://i.imgur.com/iKVk0sJ.png

Sarno et al. 2021

Azzurro
14-04-21, 16:58
Excuse me, this is pertinent to the opinion that you had stated :


Azzurro: "As for L70, it is widely expanded, the Greek source if native would likely be a late Bronze Age Anatolian influx. Ultimately based on its spread it can almost be assumed that it existed in and was native to several cultures from the Levant to the Aegean imho"


The facts remain the same, so the charts remain the same I guess. You are trying to say it came from Anatolia, so I am point out that it is most likely not the case, and a non-starter.

How is it a non starter? The Anatolian theory covers its spread moving in both directions? There is an entire scientific paper on this. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5945646/

J-L70 is equivalent to J-L397

“Finally, we explored the distribution of J2a-L397 and three derived lineages within it. J2a-L397 is tightly associated with a typical DYS445 6-repeat allele. This has been hypothesized as a marker of the Greek colonizations in the Mediterranean55 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5945646/#CR55), based on its presence in Greek Anatolia and Provence (France), a region with attested Iron Age Greek contribution. All of our chromosomes in this clade were characterized also by DYS391(9), confirming their Anatolian Greek signature.”

This was a good paper overall, provided many NGS samples that made their way to Yfull, Phoenician markers were also discussed in here.

And it gets deeper too, if you look at the Big Block Tree from ftdna, the three most basal clades are from Jordan, Sicily and Turkey.

Jovialis
14-04-21, 17:06
How is it a non starter? The Anatolian theory covers its spread moving in both directions? There is an entire scientific paper on this. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5945646/

J-L70 is equivalent to J-L397

“Finally, we explored the distribution of J2a-L397 and three derived lineages within it. J2a-L397 is tightly associated with a typical DYS445 6-repeat allele. This has been hypothesized as a marker of the Greek colonizations in the Mediterranean55 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5945646/#CR55), based on its presence in Greek Anatolia and Provence (France), a region with attested Iron Age Greek contribution. All of our chromosomes in this clade were characterized also by DYS391(9), confirming their Anatolian Greek signature.”

This was a good paper overall, provided many NGS samples that made their way to Yfull, Phoenician markers were also discussed in here.

I think it was likely spread to Greece via Anatolia, originating from the Caucasus region. The paternal lineage could have been spread also to the Levant from Anatolia, rather than the other way around. We can see by looking at different time periods that there was an Anatolian/Iran_N intrusion into the levant. Just look at Levant_N vs Levant_BA:

https://i.imgur.com/6B54Hsw.jpg

Azzurro
14-04-21, 17:25
I think it was likely spread to Greece via Anatolia, originating from the Caucasus region. The paternal lineage could have been spread also to the Levant from Anatolia, rather than the other way around. We can see by looking at different time periods that there was an Anatolian/Iran_N intrusion into the levant. Just look at Levant_N vs Levant_BA:

https://i.imgur.com/6B54Hsw.jpg

That’s more or less what I was suggesting that it spread from Anatolia to Greece, so no disagreement there. There is no indication of it coming from the Caucasus it is out of the range for what is typical or suggestive of Caucasian J2a branches, the 6000-4400 (tel:6000-4400) ybp range on Yfull. And so far the J2a in the Caucasus has been mostly under J2a-M67, J2a-Z6048 and J2b-L283. The spread of L70 is going to be MBA at the earliest, way pasted all the Neolithic your suggesting. Ugarit and Assyria were on the border of the Hittite Empires, the former even established trading colonies there. Even if we have 3 distinct founder affects in Greece, Turkey and the Levant, it doesn’t really change anything.

J-L70 spread mostly during the Classical era, and I don't know if you read OP's post where he listed its frequency per country.

Azzurro
14-04-21, 17:48
Excuse me again, but Southern Italians, and Greeks are not modeled with Levantine from what I see. Could you please clarify which study proposes this, and how much of it exists?:

https://i.imgur.com/hncKQqR.png

https://i.imgur.com/iKVk0sJ.png

Sarno et al. 2021

We have different sets of facts what do you want me to tell you.

Jovialis
14-04-21, 17:54
You have a different set of facts from Sarno et al. 2021?

Azzurro
14-04-21, 18:00
You have a different set of facts from Sarno et al. 2021?

For me Levantine in Italians and Greece is not negotiable, you can post whatever you want, there are other studies which do in fact show you need Natufian to model. The Uniparental evidence is strong plus amateur modelling. G25 is a professional tool, and it shows exactly what I am referring too.

Azzurro
14-04-21, 18:11
Anyways this talk is about J-L70, we should stick to Y dna for this to be productive.

Jovialis
14-04-21, 18:23
For me Levantine in Italians and Greece is not negotiable, you can post whatever you want, there are other studies which do in fact show you need Natufian to model. The Uniparental evidence is strong plus amateur modelling. G25 is a professional tool, and it shows exactly what I am referring too.
Here we go again with the same old. No thanks, I'll just stick with the academic modelling. Let's just keep it at that.

Azzurro
14-04-21, 18:32
Here we go again with the same old. No thanks, I'll just stick with the academic modelling. Let's just keep it at that.

This is about a Y lineage not which academic tools are the most accurate, your the one who always posts charts and the same one, surprised you didn’t post the Moots Neolithic Italy one.

Jovialis
14-04-21, 18:39
You should consider your manners, you're skating on thin ice.

You never posted a study to back your claims on the modeling.

Azzurro
14-04-21, 19:01
You should consider your manners, you're skating on thin ice.

You never posted a study to back your claims on the modeling.

Luckily I can skate haha, I did before with L70.

I like that name for the infraction, back handed insult, I have to admit that is clever.

SUPREEEEEME
14-04-21, 20:23
I think it ultimately came from the Caucasus region, into Anatolian, not the Levant into Anatolia. If so, it probably came by way of the Bronze Age pulse of Iran_N-like ancestry.

Part of my reasoning:

Only about 5% of LBA Anatolian autosomal DNA is attributed to Levantine Farmers, while over 1/3rd is attributed to Iran/Caucasus.

I don't understand the relevance of autosomal DNA here. This is why I find your argument flawed:

There are a handful of Greek J-L70 lines identified currently. For this, let's assume they all arrived in Greece via an Anatolia route (I don't believe all the Greek L70 necessarily passed through Anatolia). After leaving the Levant for Anatolia (some time between 1600 BCE and 1300 BCE), these men would ultimately assimilate amongst the Anatolians, so that by the time they would have arrived in Greece during the LBA, they would be entirely LBA Anatolian in their autosomal ancestry, but their Y's would still be J-L70. It doesn't stop there, they would have continued mixing in Greece, ultimately becoming autosomally modern Greek today, with their lines remaining J-L70. Obviously when their ancestors would have arrived from the Levant, it is unlikely that they would remain Levantine - point being people are bound to mix and mingle, with the "original" autosomal ancestry dying out. [An exception would be the Jewish populations, who have always retained a large proportion of "original" ancestry]

Additionally, by the time J-L70 men from the Levant arrived in Anatolia, they would not have been 100% Levantine farmer. They would have ancestry from several sources, being Natufian, Anatolian Farmer, Iranian Farmer, CHG, even some Steppe. So one can easily say some of the non-Levantine Farmer ancestry in BA Anatolians could have been from them. But ultimately I have no interest in debating on whether Italians and Greeks have Levantine ancestry (although given the presence of J-L70 among them - not to mention other Levantine uniparentals in these regions, we can basically confirm they had Levantine ancestors at some point).

It is not clear on what basis you think J-L70 came from the Caucasus - is it just due to autosomal ancestry? In which case, you'd make a stronger argument by saying it just originated in Anatolia.

You might say that the first point I raised can easily be flipped around, with Caucasian men arriving in the Levant, assimilating, and being responsible for the J-L70 in the Levant. But we can dismiss this for several reasons (which doubles as evidence J-L70 never came from the Caucasus):
1) J-L70 is a rare clade in the Caucasus, except amongst Jews (Mizrahi - Juhurim) and Armenians, however Herrera et al, (2011) concluded that most of the paternal lineages studied amongst Armenians were introduced from the Levant. In this specific paper, they found J-M318 in 5% of Armenians from Lake Van - J-M318 is Jewish in origin, reinforcing that at least some of Armenian J-L70 is Levantine. Several other Armenian lineages fall under J-Z40772, which shares a common ancestor will several Jewish branches at 2700 ybp, and with a large Jewish branch at 2900 ybp, reinforcing once again a Levantine origin. We also need to remember that the Caucasus is a more heavily tested region, particularly than the Levant and Anatolia.
2) Considering the greater number of Caucasian men tested, we find no Basal branches of J-L70 amongst them
3) Considering the greater number of Caucasian men tested, we don't find any significant diversity of J-L70 branches amongst them
4) J-L70's main growth period ends abruptly with the Late Bronze Age collapse, solidifying J-L70 being heavily nested within the Eastern Mediterranean - I don't suppose the Sea People's invaded the Caucasus as well?



I think it was likely spread to Greece via Anatolia, originating from the Caucasus region. The paternal lineage could have been spread also to the Levant from Anatolia, rather than the other way around. We can see by looking at different time periods that there was an Anatolian/Iran_N intrusion into the levant. Just look at Levant_N vs Levant_BA:


Having dismissed coming from the Caucasus, the next thing to address is spreading from Anatolia. While more likely than the Caucasus, there still is not convincing evidence for this. J-L70 is not a Neolithic marker, and could not have spread via Neolithic movements. J-Z387 is a different story, with it likely arriving in the Levant via Late Neolithic Mesopotamians (with the ancestor, J-L24 and J-L25 originating in Iran). I did address in my first post why it's not really possible for J-L70 to have spread from Anatolia, with one set of branches going to Greece, while another went to the Levant. The phylogeny simply tells a different story. It's not like we see a clear cluster of Greek branches, and then a clear cluster of Levantine branches - all of J-L70's branches are mixed. This suggests J-L70 diversified amongst a certain culture, or in a certain region before spreading all over. Additionally, we find Jewish branches throughout J-L70, whereas we would need Jewish branches in just one neck of the woods for a spread from Anatolia to work. The presence of Jewish branches throughout the phylogeny strongly supports a spread from the Levant, especially since Jews tended to remain insular.

I'll just repost why a Levantine origin for J-L70 is most likely, and has the greatest evidence:

"A Levantine origin for J-L70 makes the most sense given the great branch diversity, higher frequencies than other regions, and presence of several layers of Basal branches (J-L70* in Jordan, J-FT340863 in an Sinai Egyptian and Palestinian, J-Z387* in several Sephardic Jews, and two different J-FGC35503* branches in Lebanon). Should J-L70 not originate in the Levant, this is all very coincidental. The nail on the hammer for a Levantine origin for J-L70 are the 15 distinct, distant Jewish branches. No similarly aged clade has as many distinct Jewish lineages - save for perhaps J-Y2919, but that's 600 years older."

So pretty much, this is the likely migration path we're dealing with: J-L25 (Iran) >...> J-Z387 (Mesopotamia) > J-L70 (Levant)

Ralphie Boy
14-04-21, 20:37
Have tried using Morley to see if any snps are called? I am not sure if 23&me tests any downstream snps of L70, I know the Old Nat Geo used to test. All depends on how much more information you want to know on this lineage, I would give Morley a try or upload the kit to Ftdna.

Unfortunately, the relative who tested for L70 was not interested in further Y DNA analysis, only autosomal DNA and genealogical matches. I think Y DNA is very informative as far as older relationships. I was unable to convince him but hope he changes his mind. I will just have to make inferences from other Greece results, as to which L70 branch we might be.

Azzurro
14-04-21, 20:42
Unfortunately, the relative who tested for L70 was not interested in further Y DNA analysis, only autosomal DNA and genealogical matches. I think Y DNA is very informative as far as older relationships. I was unable to convince him but hope he changes his mind. I will just have to make inferences from other Greece results, as to which L70 branch we might be.

Hope he changes his mind, I don't know if you saw the L70 thread on AG, several members are posting there, including me and Supreme. Does your relative have any other J-L70 matches? Perhaps one these cousins could have tested further on ftdna and the information is already available!

Jovialis
14-04-21, 20:44
How do you explain it existing in places that don't fit into that scenario, as Brick pointed out?


On Y-full in addition to Italians and Greeks, among the J-L70 there are also English, Irish, Scottish, Polish, Bulgarian, Swiss-German, Portuguese, Spanish, German, Albanian, Austrian, Ukrainian, Swedish, Belgian, Dutch, French, Lithuanian, Belorussian, Czech users. Actually, the area of its distribution in Europe is wider than the Roman Empire, I have doubts all of J-L70 can be attributed to the Roman imperial era. Since many areas of Europe are not yet heavily sampled, it is possible that it is a bit more widespread in Europe than we think. A Viking (VK42) from Sweden is also J-L70.

Jovialis
14-04-21, 20:46
Indeed, J-L70 is found throughout Western Eurasia. One of the noticeable things we see is that there are Near Easterners, Mediterranean, and non-Mediterranean Europeans at virtually all levels of the phylogeny. This suggests that J-L70 diversified amongst a certain culture, or in a certain region, before spreading. The majority of J-L70 in Eastern Europe is Ashkenazi Jewish (since Ashkenazim are a heavily tested population). However, I'm pretty confident that most of Europe's J-L70 would have arrived during the Roman Period. I'm not sure how else a young, widespread MENA clade would spread to Europe otherwise.

The J-L70 Viking, from the supplementary data of the paper, was around ~20% Southern European. I think it would be reasonable to assume his line arrived from the south.

NM, I see your response.

You can't be confident about that, because there was a pulse of Iran-like ancestry in the EBA. This makes me assume that it doesn't necessarily have to do with the levant.

Azzurro
14-04-21, 20:46
How do you explain it existing in places that don't fit into that scenario, as Brick pointed out?

Roman Expansion this is an easy one, we already have evidence for this

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-BY242/

The Roman sample is the same age as the date of the clade.

Jovialis
14-04-21, 20:47
Roman Expansion this is an easy one, we already have evidence for this

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-BY242/

The Roman sample is the same age as the date of the clade.

See above post.

Azzurro
14-04-21, 20:49
See above post.

Wait for Supreme to answer on this one, I responded to your quotation of Brick

SUPREEEEEME
14-04-21, 20:49
NM, I see your response.

You can't be confident about that, because there was a pulse of Iran-like ancestry in the EBA. This makes me assume that it doesn't necessarily have to do with the levant.

J-L70 is MBA, not EBA.

SUPREEEEEME
14-04-21, 20:53
How do you explain it existing in places that don't fit into that scenario, as Brick pointed out?

I don't think any of these regions are not accounted for. I would imagine that the Syrian Auxiliaries were the primary force. Anatolian Auxiliaries could easily have spread some too. Add on the Jewish Diaspora, and consider the effect of the Roman Empire on people being able to move around, and mercantilism, and we can account for it's spread throughout Europe.

Jovialis
14-04-21, 20:53
J-L70 is MBA

There's a possibility the migration from the east was continuing into that time. EBA is speculated as the earliest possible time for the ramp-up. There has been a slow trickle of CHG/IN at least from the Neolithic.

SUPREEEEEME
14-04-21, 20:57
There's a possibility the migration from the east was continuing into that time. EBA is speculated as the earliest possible time.

J-L70's TMRCA is 1800 BCE, which is in the Middle Bronze Age. The main diversification of branches was between 1400 BCE and 1100 BCE. I don't understand the connection you're making.

Ralphie Boy
14-04-21, 21:03
Hope he changes his mind, I don't know if you saw the L70 thread on AG, several members are posting there, including me and Supreme. Does your relative have any other J-L70 matches? Perhaps one these cousins could have tested further on ftdna and the information is already available!

Thank you, that’s a good idea, to check other blogs in hopes someone posted results. FTDNA has an L24 project with public results that I checked.

SUPREEEEEME
14-04-21, 21:13
Thank you, that’s a good idea, to check other blogs in hopes someone posted results. FTDNA has an L24 project with public results that I checked.

Azzurro says if you need to contact him, you can do so on Anthrogenica.

Jovialis
14-04-21, 21:15
J-L70's TMRCA is 1800 BCE, which is in the Middle Bronze Age. The main diversification of branches was between 1400 BCE and 1100 BCE. I don't understand the connection you're making.

What is the connection you are making, that Syrian Auxiliary are responsible for the majority of J-L70 in all of Europe? Even places outside of the Roman Empire?

SUPREEEEEME
14-04-21, 21:22
What is the connection you are making, that Syrian Auxiliary are responsible for the majority of J-L70 in all of Europe? Even places outside of the Roman Empire?

Within the Empire. Many of the regions where we notice greater concentrations, I've noticed these units wound up.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but to my understanding, each Auxiliary unit had several thousand men, giving ample opportunity for many L70 men amongst them. This is the only explanation I've found that can explain J-L70's phylogeny (ignoring the evidence of J-L70's origin within the Levant).

J-L70 was likely already present throughout the Levant, Anatolia, and Mesopotamia before Rome.

Jovialis
14-04-21, 21:25
Within the Empire. Many of the regions where we notice greater concentrations, I've noticed these units wound up.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but to my understanding, each Auxiliary unit had several thousand men, giving ample opportunity for many L70 men amongst them. This is the only explanation I've found that can explain J-L70's phylogeny (ignoring the evidence of J-L70's origin within the Levant).
J-L70 was likely already present throughout the Levant, Anatolia, and Mesopotamia before Rome.

It is not impossible, but I think it is unlikely that it should account for the entirety of Europe. I only contend that it is within the realm of possibility that it could have spread from a source outside the levant, given that J1 groups likely come from the Caucasus. Moreover, it was in a time when there was significant CHG/IN ancestry coming to the Levant, as well as Anatolia, and Greece. Perhaps it was just more successful in the Levant.