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aliG
05-02-04, 10:01
they mean only the people from Oriental countries? there are 48 countries in Asia, and not 5. I recently asked a philipino friend what he meant by Asian and he replied all the oriental people. and when I asked him about russians, turks, saudis, kuwatis, iranis, pakistanis, srilankans, burmese, armenians, etc..he was puzzled, surprised, and confused. again, this is just a question and no offense to any one here.

Old School
05-02-04, 10:15
Well, I consider the people from India, Pakistan, Iraq, etc. to be Asian as those countries are part of the Asian continent. Russia is considered part of Europe for some reason. I guess it's just that China, Korea, Japan, Philippines, Thailand and other countries in the eastern part of Asia are more familiar to most people. Part of it could be marketing and media. There are more Chinese restaurants than any other Asian restaurant and the association is strong. As for media, when you see an Asian person on general TV or the movies, they're most likely to be Chinese, Japanese or Korean.

On a side note, a lot of Asian Americans consider the term "Oriental" to be demeaning, since (as it was told to me) "oriental" is a word used for things - oriental rug, oriental furniture, etc.

Just my 2 cents, Hope that helps a bit. I'm sure people like Maciamo can give a much better reply.

jeisan
05-02-04, 10:17
err the countries you listed are oriental as well. oriental is just another word for eastern. anyhow i persoanlly dont really think of the middle eastern or former USSR people as asian either. the term asian to me means the mogoloid race. while turks, russians, saudis, iraqis and the rest may be from asia they arent mogoloid. so the other people i would call by their country name or if i didnt know that by their region. so saudis, iraqis, kuwaitis, etc would be middle eastern. if i didnt know their country

m477
05-02-04, 10:32
I have been told by Chinese-Americans that "oriential" is not politically correct because it is an imperialist term. So now the proper term is Asian, but as you pointed out, it doesn't technically mean the same thing as oriental, but the truth is that certain Asian countries just aren't called as such.

It's kind of like saying African-American instead of black, which is also no longer PC, but it seems like most "African-Americans" don't really consider people like Egyptians or Morrocans as part of the group.

jeisan
05-02-04, 10:42
you guys might also want to check out this thread (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5613) as well.

Kintaro
05-02-04, 21:02
Yay. this same debate goes over around the world. I play Initial D the arcade game, and of course, a fair amount of Asian pople play it. In Montreal, someone made a big accomplishment, and someone else congratulated him with "good job - AZN PRIDE" I told him his comment was racism/elitism, notably because of the pan-asian thing.

I really don't use this term, and I'm not a racist, but I have heard once that "Iraqis aren't the right shade of yellow, they're just a bunch of sand n******"

And they're telling me that AZN used in the i-look-cool way isn't racism ?

aliG
05-02-04, 23:25
Originally posted by jeisan
anyhow i persoanlly dont really think of the middle eastern or former USSR people as asian either. the term asian to me means the mogoloid race. while turks, russians, saudis, iraqis and the rest may be from asia they arent mogoloid.

just for your information, the turks, russian, saudis, and this ETC of yours are all different races. they are not slant eyed, but they are still in ASIA, hence they are asian.



also, less then a fifth of russia AND turkey is in europe. but officially they are counted as ASIAN countries.

jeisan
09-02-04, 00:51
Originally posted by aliG
just for your information, the turks, russian, saudis, and this ETC of yours are all different races.
just for your information they are the same race. there are only 3 races, mongoliod, negroid and caucasian.

they are not slant eyed, but they are still in ASIA, hence they are asian.
there are plenty of latin and others here in the west, but most asians arent refering to them when they say "westerner"


also, less then a fifth of russia AND turkey is in europe. but officially they are counted as ASIAN countries.
im not arguing their geographical postitions or what their offical status is.
india is in asia as well but i wouldnt call the people there asians, i would call them indians. if i could tell viet, korean, thai, chinese, japanese, cambodian, malay, filipino, mongolian, indonesian, taiwanese, laotian, tibetan and people from any other prodominatly mongoloid country i may have missed, apart with a fairly good accuracy rate i wouldnt even use the term asian myself, but until i can thats what i use it for.

Winter
09-02-04, 02:05
I think this question goes under the topic of how do we seperate ourselves, by ethnicity, or by nationality?

bossel
09-02-04, 11:14
Originally posted by jeisan
just for your information they are the same race. there are only 3 races, mongoliod, negroid and caucasian.

Of course you are right about Turks, Russians, Saudis but there are more races than 3. There are also some smaller races: at least Khoisanid & Australoid, depending on the interpretation of data even more (eg. the Pygmies may be considered a distinct race, Ethiopians are a mixed Europid/Negroid race).

jeisan
09-02-04, 12:00
its been awhile since ive looked any of this up. last i checked there were the three with australiod being a possible forth, havent heard of the others.

Maciamo
24-02-04, 05:14
Originally posted by aliG
they mean only the people from Oriental countries? there are 48 countries in Asia, and not 5. I recently asked a philipino friend what he meant by Asian and he replied all the oriental people. and when I asked him about russians, turks, saudis, kuwatis, iranis, pakistanis, srilankans, burmese, armenians, etc..he was puzzled, surprised, and confused.

Hi there !

The meaning of words depends on the people who use them. Usually, in Britain, "Asian" means South Asian (Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Sri Lankan...), while in North America (and Australia, I think), Asian refers to East Asians (Japanese, Korean, Chinese, Vietnamese, Thai, Malay, Indonesian, etc.). Central Asian, Turks, Iranians, Iraqi, Syrian, Israli, Saudi, Omani, etc. tend to be called "Middle Eastern" by all Westerners.

Of course, logically, "Asian" includes all people from the Asian continent. Yet, that would have to exclude "non-Asian" immigrants (e.g. Westerners living in Japan, Hong Kong, Singapore...) or even newly arrived settlers, like the Russians East of the Ural mountains.

But then it becomes more difficult to decide who is really Asian and who isn't. How far can we go back to determine whether someone is Asian, or immigrant/settler/invader like Russians in the huge Asian part of their country ? India was invaded by the Aryans (=common European ancestor, from Caucasus/Black Sea) 5000 years ago. The local Dravidian people had black skin like Africans, and the Aryans had white skin and fair eyes (and maybe hair too). The Aryan invaders created the Hindu religion (probably based on an older Aryan polytheism, that derived as Graeco-Roman and Norse mythology in Europe) and the caste system. The caste system had for aim to separate the Aryan invaders (higher-castes) from the local Dravidian (lower and outcastes), by prohibiting intermarriages between some castes, so that nowadays there are still white skinned and fair-eyed Indians (look at Bollywood actors and actress). As they are originally the same ethnic and cultural group as Europeans, they should not even be called Asian.

On a historical point of view, 5000 years is very little for a ethny to change. But then Finnish and Hungarian people aren't really Europeans either, as 1000 years ago, they were still roaming the plains of Central Asia. Needless to say that intermarriages have help a lot to make them look truly European, although their language is still unrelated (some say closer to Japanese, Korean and Mongol than to Indo-European languages).

For me the word "Oriental" (which only means "Eastern", after all), refers more to East Asian. It may be easier to specify the geographic area when talking about "Asians". Saying "East Asian" (incluing South-East and North-East Asian), South Asian, Central Asian, Middle-Eastern or Russian avoids a lot of confusion.

Keeni84
24-02-04, 06:10
It's kind of like saying African-American instead of black, which is also no longer PC, but it seems like most "African-Americans" don't really consider people like Egyptians or Morrocans as part of the group.

I don't know who you've talked to, but most black people I know (including myself) hate being called African-American, and prefer to be called black.

African-American connotes something like....someone that came from Africa but now lives in America. Black is like someone who was a descendant of the slaves who were in America from the beginning.

Anyway, I've never called someone Oriental (like Oriental rug) because it carries negative connotations. It's like calling a black person "Negro" or a Native American a "Red". It's an outdated term.

BTW I like Maciamo's explaination!!!

Maciamo
24-02-04, 06:40
Originally posted by Keeni84

Anyway, I've never called someone Oriental (like Oriental rug) because it carries negative connotations. It's like calling a black person "Negro" or a Native American a "Red". It's an outdated term.


It's funny because "Oriental" only seems to have a negative connotation in North America. I really don't see why. "Oriental" and "Eastern" mean exactly the same thing. The former comes from Latin, while the latter is from Germanic origin. Linguistically, it's merely like the difference between "kingly" and "royal", "begin" and "commence", "help" and "aid", "chat" and "converse", "meat-eater" and "carnivorous" or "grown-up" and "adult". The former is from Germanic origin, while the latter is from Latin, but they originally mean the same.

In French, Italian or Spanish, there is no other word than "Oriental(e)" to mean "Eastern" (or just say "of the East" => "de l'est"...). Actually, Oriental sounds more romantic and attractive. It brings images of Oriental civilization, Oriental savour, or even Orient Express. A specialist of Eastern cultures is called an Orientalist. It sounds refined rather than pejorative.

As for political correctness, it is just a few politicians who want to impose their biased sensitivities to the population. They are rarely linguists, and, as you said it yourself, don't often understand the true feelings of the people they are talking about (i.e. black people often prefer being called "black" than "Afro-American"). I find it so stupid to want to call a blind person "visually challenged", for instance. But aybe is it just those politician who are mentally challenged after all...

howabe
25-02-04, 00:15
"Oriental" (which only means "Eastern", after all)
Actually, to be kinda picky, seeing as we're tracing the word back to it's etymology, it would literally mean, as an adjective, 'of the place where the sun rise', although it obviously became the common use for the orientation of East a couple of thousand years ago... And seeing as Japan is the 'Land of the Rising Sun', you could argue that the Orient singularly refers to Japan.
Although really, that's pretty stupid... and now I can't remember why I started this in the first place :mad:

Keeni84
28-02-04, 07:38
Maciamo:

It is hard for you to figure out? First of all, yes there is a history to the word "Oriental" and at one time, that history and that word was acceptable, mainstream. However, over time, "Oriental" in America began to carry negative connotations. Just like Negro used to be a perfectly fine word back in the day, but now it just carries negative, outdated connotations. It has racist overtones. Oriental comes from the period where Europeans believed themselves to be the best, the center of everything. The Orient was a mysterious place, with strange customs that were to be respected but at the same time, still inferior.

No matter if the word started out being Germanic, then had some latin roots, and then got switched around into the French language--it doesn't matter. The fact of the matter is, it is outdated in America.


Actually, Oriental sounds more romantic and attractive. It brings images of Oriental civilization, Oriental savour, or even Orient Express. A specialist of Eastern cultures is called an Orientalist. It sounds refined rather than pejorative.

Oriental as this is prejudiced in itself. Why is the Orient so "romantic or attractive?" It's like, you get these images of mystery, romance, ancient civilization, tradition, and that's not all of what Asia is, not in the least. It's positive stereotyping--and that can be bad as well. It's the same as "All Asians are good at math". Well just change it to "Asia is mysterious and traditional". And besides, Oriental is an ethnocentric term---just like Eastern. Eastern to what? Not to America! In the sceme of things, The "Orient" is actually the West.

And Oriental in itself is a little irritating, because its' almost like referring to Asian folks as inanimate objects. Like "Oriental rugs or Oriental flavor ramen noodle soup" or something.

Many of you guys might call me nit picky or something, but I just feel that I need to make sure that everyone feels comfortable in all situations. Many, many other Asians feel "Oriental" to be negative, and so do I.

Maciamo
28-02-04, 09:07
It's positive stereotyping--and that can be bad as well. It's the same as "All Asians are good at math". Well just change it to "Asia is mysterious and traditional".

It isn't the same. Being good at maths would be a fact (measurable and immuable), while being mysterious and traditional is just a matter of personnal impression, based on one's culture or sensitivity. The former is objective, the latter is subjective. :blush:


And besides, Oriental is an ethnocentric term---just like Eastern. Eastern to what? Not to America! In the sceme of things, The "Orient" is actually the West.


Well not so much a matter of ethnocentrism as a matter of language. English is the language that has developped in England, which is in Europe. From a European point of view (which naturally pervades European languages), East of Europe, you have first the "Levant" or "Near East" (Turkey, Syria, Israel...), then the "Middle East" (Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Iran...), then much further, skipping India ("the Indies"), the "Far East" (China, Japan, Korea...) or "Orient". This is inevitable if you speak English or any European language. Of course, it's ironical for Americans (of the whole continent) who all speak European languages (English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch), and have to keep these words based on how European see the world. But the funniest of all is that Japanse say 中東アジア (chuutou ajia) for Middle East, which is the literal translation from European languages, thus also keeping the European point of view ! I guess it's the same in some other non European languages too (BTW, I wonder how one says "Middle East" in Arabic, Hebrew or Turkish ?)

howabe
28-02-04, 14:04
the "Far East" (China, Japan, Korea...) or "Orient".
Well if you're going to argue from the point of European languages, and the Romantic roots of the word 'Oriental', maybe you should point out that the Romans called the Middle East 'the Orient'. Hence, in Arrian's Anabasis Alexandri, Darius II is 'an Oriental despot' etc. Also, before arguing that anything East of Rome was 'Oriental', they didn't apply the word to the Near East, calling it Asia Minor. The 'Orient' for them probably began around Bactria and Sogdiana etc...

Keeni84
29-02-04, 08:12
It isn't the same. Being good at maths would be a fact (measurable and immuable), while being mysterious and traditional is just a matter of personnal impression, based on one's culture or sensitivity. The former is objective, the latter is subjective.

So what? It doesn't matter which one is objective or subjective. Imagine it like this. All Asians are good at math and culture from the Orient is mysterious and unique. All Negroes are good at sports and culture from the Dark Continent is primitive and strange. It's the same thing. Remember when Negro to describe black people and Dark Continent to describe Africa were okay things? (although I still see in some publications "Dark Continent" being used to describe Africa). Now it's not okay.

And second of all, are you saying that "all asians being good at math" is an objective fact? Because if you are, you're worse off than I thought!! :shock:

If it is your own personal opinion, that is fine. However, the word means much more than that. For instance, a white person may think that it is fine to call a black person "Colored". In that person's mind, she sees a black person as having color, and makes her own personal opinion that the person is "Colored". It is, in fact, accurate to call a black person colored. Black people have color! However, the history of the word "Colored" is very negative and offensive to blacks and others. The same with Oriental. You may feel that Asian culture is mysterious or whatever, and the word "Oriental" exemplifies your personal feelings, however the word carries a much more negative tone than your personal feelings, and it is offensive, not only to me, but also to many of the people it is in reference to.



Well not so much a matter of ethnocentrism as a matter of language. English is the language that has developped in England, which is in Europe. From a European point of view (which naturally pervades European languages), East of Europe, you have first the "Levant" or "Near East" (Turkey, Syria, Israel...), then the "Middle East" (Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Iran...), then much further, skipping India ("the Indies"), the "Far East" (China, Japan, Korea...) or "Orient". This is inevitable if you speak English or any European language. Of course, it's ironical for Americans (of the whole continent) who all speak European languages (English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch), and have to keep these words based on how European see the world. But the funniest of all is that Japanse say 中東アジア (chuutou ajia) for Middle East, which is the literal translation from European languages, thus also keeping the European point of view ! I guess it's the same in some other non European languages too (BTW, I wonder how one says "Middle East" in Arabic, Hebrew or Turkish ?)

Um...isn't that my point? The fact of the matter is, the words you mentioned above are ethnocentric based on a European (not world) view, and this view has been passed around the world by imperialism, trade and colonialism.

Maciamo
29-02-04, 10:10
And second of all, are you saying that "all asians being good at math" is an objective fact? Because if you are, you're worse off than I thought!! :shock:

Don't misunderstand me. I never said I agreed with that. What I mean is that saying that "one person" is good at maths is a measurable and objective fact, while the other was not measurable and only based on one's imaginary. This said, one's imaginary can ebglobe a whole country or continent (even though it is very approximate, it's just a general impression one person has in their mind), but it would be absurd to classify a huge group of people on objective critria such as maths.


Um...isn't that my point? The fact of the matter is, the words you mentioned above are ethnocentric based on a European (not world) view, and this view has been passed around the world by imperialism, trade and colonialism.

I inquired, and it appears that even in Arabic, "Middle-East" translates literally as "Middle-East", even though most Arabs live there. It has become a political symbol. Anyway, there need to be a point of reference if you want to talk of east and west in a spheric world. The internationally accepted standard in matter of time and world maps is the Greenwich Meridian (so based on Central East London). This Euro-centric vision has become a world standard whether you like it or not.

bossel
29-02-04, 18:51
Both Asia & Orient originally mean virtually the same: "where the sun rises".
The usage all over the world of course differs. If you, Keeni, don't feel comfortable with this term, simply don't use it. But since a lot of people here are not from the US (BTW, are you sure it has a negative connotation in all of the US, or just in some parts of society?) & they have their own interpretations, why shouldn't they use the term Oriental?

BTW, although it can be used for the Far-East, in Germany the connotation of Orient is usually Near-/Mid-East, e.g. Sheherazade's stories are "1001 stories from the Orient".

Speaking of ethnocentrism: in Europe there is also the term Occident to describe Europe or the "Western" world. What would you make of that, Keeni?

kirei_na_me
29-02-04, 20:36
It seems the U.S. is the only country where there's a stigma attached to the term "Oriental". All of my European friends use Oriental when talking about someone who's Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc. Also, every native Japanese person I know and all of the native Chinese people I know don't have a problem with being referred to as Oriental. In fact, I've had some tell me that they'd rather be referred to as Oriental rather than Asian, because Asian is too broad of a term. I will also add that I was surprised to know that, because being American, I thought they would be offended by someone using "Oriental" to describe them.

Keeni84
29-02-04, 20:50
Both Asia & Orient originally mean virtually the same: "where the sun rises".QUOTE]

So what? Good info, but so what?

[QUOTE]The usage all over the world of course differs. If you, Keeni, don't feel comfortable with this term, simply don't use it. But since a lot of people here are not from the US (BTW, are you sure it has a negative connotation in all of the US, or just in some parts of society?) & they have their own interpretations, why shouldn't they use the term Oriental?

Of course the usage differs, as Maciamo has already explained countless times. And I don't need you to tell me what words I can and cannot use, thank you. If I don't feel comfortable using a certain word, then I won't use it. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out. And I also never said that Maciamo or anyone else could not use the word. That word is socially acceptable and doesn't have as many negative connotations in their society as it does in American society. Scroll and reread, please. You might pick up a few things.


It's funny because "Oriental" only seems to have a negative connotation in North America. I really don't see why.

THIS is what I have been replying to for the past two posts. I'm merely trying to explain to Maciamo (and others) WHY I don't use the word, and to fill in any areas that they might not understand, like WHY it has negative connotations in America. Perhaps you skipped this part, no?

Of course "Oriental" isn't going to be offensive in some circles in America. Do you know how many friends I've met in college who've called me "Colored" or "Negro" and I had to tell them to stop calling me that? It was perfectly acceptable for them to call me that, because in their cirlces, there wasn't anything offensive about it. They had no idea that the term was offensive. There are even Asian American/Asian folks who don't mind being called Oriental, and I respect that. However, I must respect that fact that many more Asian Americans don't like the word at all.


I inquired, and it appears that even in Arabic, "Middle-East" translates literally as "Middle-East", even though most Arabs live there. It has become a political symbol. Anyway, there need to be a point of reference if you want to talk of east and west in a spheric world. The internationally accepted standard in matter of time and world maps is the Greenwich Meridian (so based on Central East London). This Euro-centric vision has become a world standard whether you like it or not.QUOTE]

That's what I've been saying this whole time. "Whether I like it or not"? Whoa, calm down. There is no other word in my language for "Middle Eastern" except "Arab" which is not accurate of the people living there, however there IS a more accurate and less-offensive word for Oriental which is Asian. Just like "Africa" means "dust" and was in reference to Tunisia, not Africa the continent, I'd much rather say "Africa" than the Dark Continent.

[QUOTE]Speaking of ethnocentrism: in Europe there is also the term Occident to describe Europe or the "Western" world. What would you make of that, Keeni?

Just so you know, I don't use "Western" either, because it also carries an ethnocentric lable compatible to "white". And as we all know, all Westerners aren't white. But that's another subject that doesn't really deal with this conversation.

I mean...just do a search on Yahoo! or something. Look up Asia/Asian then look up Orient/Oriental. Chances are for Asia you'll actually get something about the people and culture and for Orient/Oriental you get like history and rugs and artifacts or something.


Originally Posted by Keeni84

And second of all, are you saying that "all asians being good at math" is an objective fact? Because if you are, you're worse off than I thought!!


Don't misunderstand me. I never said I agreed with that. What I mean is that saying that "one person" is good at maths is a measurable and objective fact, while the other was not measurable and only based on one's imaginary. This said, one's imaginary can ebglobe a whole country or continent (even though it is very approximate, it's just a general impression one person has in their mind), but it would be absurd to classify a huge group of people on objective critria such as maths

So you think it's okay for me to say that all French culture is contradictory and strange? Or that France is a nasty, dirty country? That's my own personal opinion, that I get from French folks, and it's okay, because it's my "general impression" that I as "one person" have in my mind. What if your perception of the Orient (or someone's perception) of the Orient was not so good? What if Orient did not conjure up and image of "romance" but insteand one of savagery? Would it be okay, then?

I'm not saying you can't use Orient or Oriental. The word, in your country, does not seem to have negative connotations (from what I hear from you).

ANYWAY, you guys can say what you want, when you want it. For a Japanese board, I expected a little more understanding, and a lot less "preaching" but it's cool. I'm done with it, because it seems people would rather argue about Germanic endings and English etymology than the cultural implications of a word.

Keeni84
29-02-04, 20:54
It seems the U.S. is the only country where there's a stigma attached to the term "Oriental". All of my European friends use Oriental when talking about someone who's Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc. Also, every native Japanese person I know and all of the native Chinese people I know don't have a problem with being referred to as Oriental. In fact, I've had some tell me that they'd rather be referred to as Oriental rather than Asian, because Asian is too broad of a term.

Isn't that the point? The word has negative connotations in the US. I'm not talking about any other place. I'm talking about America. "Colored" is still an acceptable word to use in SA but it's not in the United States. Why? Because there is more negativity attached to the word.

Just like with Oriental. Maybe in Europe and other places around the world, Oriental does not have as much negative baggage as it does in the United States. It's not just about what the word literally means. It's the negative connotations of the word!

kirei_na_me
29-02-04, 21:00
I was just pointing out what I have heard directly from native Japanese or Chinese people. That's it. I wasn't saying it's right or wrong. It depends on whatever individual you're talking to and whether they believe it's negative or not. My last line says that I thought it was negative too and was suprised to hear that a lot of them didn't find it offensive. I'm always the diplomat... :p

Keeni84
29-02-04, 21:11
Yes, Kirei_na_me: I agree. I guess, in so many words, that's what I have been trying to say too!

:) ありがとうございます!

bossel
01-03-04, 02:53
And I don't need you to tell me what words I can and cannot use, thank you.
Well, you're welcome. :bluush: Sorry, but it was not my intention to tell you what you can or can't say. Where I come from the expression I used simply means something like "there is no problem for you since you don't need to use the word". Anyway, "you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out."


Of course "Oriental" isn't going to be offensive in some circles in America.
Why then say that it's outdated in America, when it's still in use? Some kind of "ethnocentrism" on your part?


there IS a more accurate and less-offensive word for Oriental which is Asian.
I think, the discussion showed that it is not "more accurate".


Just like "Africa" means "dust"
Interesting that you know that, even linguists don't seem able to agree on one origin. For what I know, at least 7 versions are possible. Never heard of the dust-version, though.


I mean...just do a search on Yahoo! or something. Look up Asia/Asian then look up Orient/Oriental. Chances are for Asia you'll actually get something about the people and culture and for Orient/Oriental you get like history and rugs and artifacts or something.
Guess what, I did a little Google search & it's a bit more diverse than you think.
Anyway, that would be a rather strange divide between Asian for culture & Oriental for history.


rather argue about [...] English etymology than the cultural implications of a word.
But etymology is part of the cultural implications, it can show the root where implications derived from.

Hachiko
01-03-04, 05:53
IMHO, I take the term "Asian" as a general reference whose blood traces to any race originating on the Asian subcontinent. MostWestern socities break Asians into "Middle Easterners," "Indians/South Asians," "Siberians," "Southeast Asians," etc. or by their national race: Chine, Japanese, etc.

Just to point out to everyone here, Europeans can, if you go back, also be deemed Asian as well.

The phrase "Caucasian" refers generally to Europeans, but these Europeans moved from the Transcaucasian nations (Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Georgia), and moved to the European continent. the Caucasus region is in Asia, hence, they can be traced to Asian origin.

Here's an article from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian).

Also to note is this site:
The Origin or Race (http://www.bible-truth.org/race.htm)

Keeni84
01-03-04, 06:23
Ha ha ha.

Am I easily offended? No. If you read my posts from the first to the last you'll see a general progression of my just getting more and more annoyed. So maybe that little tidbit at the top should read "Annoyed easily, aren't you?"


Sorry, but it was not my intention to tell you what you can or can't say. Where I come from the expression I used simply means something like "there is no problem for you since you don't need to use the word". Anyway, "you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out."

Where I come from "If you don't feel comfortable with the word, then don't use it" means what it says. Someone telling you what to do. You dont have to be a rocket scientist to figure that we're probably not going to agree on this, either. :)


Why then say that it's outdated in America, when it's still in use? Some kind of "ethnocentrism" on your part?

I don't think this line makes very much sense. What would I have to be ethnocentric about? What? And how does saying "Oriental" is outdated mean that I am being ethnocentric? I guess I'm being ethnocentric when I say that Negro is an outdated term as well. Damn, I'm so ethnocentric it's unbelievable!


there IS a more accurate and less-offensive word for Oriental which is Asian. I think, the discussion showed that it is not "more accurate".

LOL. But you didn't say "less offensive". Is there a reson for that?


Interesting that you know that, even linguists don't seem able to agree on one origin. For what I know, at least 7 versions are possible. Never heard of the dust-version, though.

I don't "know" it's just one of the many words over the years for Africa. It was one example. And there are probably more than seven versions anyway.

Anyway, I did your Google search and found that YES, you are correct. There is diversity within the search. However, I searched on Yahoo! and there was the divide that I talked about. Very interesting! See, it takes conversations like this to find out stuff like that! How very strange!


But etymology is part of the cultural implications, it can show the root where implications derived from.

Yeah, but that's not what we were talking about! The etymology of the word is important, yes, but my central point was that the word itself has taken on negative connotations, more specifically, negative connotations in America!

ANYWAY! I am getting tired of this conversation mainly because I'm probably going to say the same thing over and over again!!!!

bossel
01-03-04, 19:45
Where I come from "If you don't feel comfortable with the word, then don't use it" means what it says.
Actually, I usually try to mean what I say, too. I hate having to read between the lines. But sometimes the environment rubs off on me. Sorry.


I don't think this line makes very much sense. What would I have to be ethnocentric about? What? And how does saying "Oriental" is outdated mean that I am being ethnocentric? I guess I'm being ethnocentric when I say that Negro is an outdated term as well. Damn, I'm so ethnocentric it's unbelievable!
You are ethnocentric when you think that your group's view of the word Oriental is representative for all of America, as in "The fact of the matter is, it is outdated in America."
But ethnocentricity is a bad argument, since everybody is ethnocentric in some way. That's the point!


LOL. But you didn't say "less offensive". Is there a reson for that?
Of course. The reason is that there are obviously people who see it as offensive.

The differences between Yahoo & Google are indeed interesting. I wonder why the differing algorithms produce such results.

Maciamo
02-03-04, 04:53
So you think it's okay for me to say that all French culture is contradictory and strange? Or that France is a nasty, dirty country? That's my own personal opinion, that I get from French folks, and it's okay, because it's my "general impression" that I as "one person" have in my mind. What if your perception of the Orient (or someone's perception) of the Orient was not so good? What if Orient did not conjure up and image of "romance" but insteand one of savagery? Would it be okay, then?

Yes, that's perfectly alright, as long as it's what you think. It's just your opinion. That doesn't mean it's true or that other people will think the same. You might just make some enemies by saying that France is nasty and dirty (BTW, I am not French), or that the Orient is savage, but at least people understand your impression of that country of region. The problem with "maths" or objective things is that it cannot be an opinion (someone can't decide that Chicago is the capital of the US just because it's their opinion/impression) and it doesn't lead to discussion at all.

Personally, I don't have the impression that the Orient is a romantic or mysterious place. That was just an example to illustrate how some European I know saw it.

As for France being contradictory and strange, which country isn't ? :p
That could be the start to a new interesting debate : national contradiction. For example, France professes "Liberty, Fraternity and Equality", but it is probably the least egalitarian European country (everything needs to have a hierarchy and society is very elitist).

The US ideal of democracy and freedom is also challenged by a too powerful president (who has all military power and can ignore the Congress), who defends death penalty and claim that gay have no rights to get married. Then what freedom is that not be allowed to drink alcohol before 21 or even 25 in some states, to severely condemn cannabis users, or not be able to travel to Cuba or North Korea (Japanase & European can).

But that's another discussion.

Belle
24-03-04, 13:08
just for your information, the turks, russian, saudis, and this ETC of yours are all different races. they are not slant eyed, but they are still in ASIA, hence they are asian.



also, less then a fifth of russia AND turkey is in europe. but officially they are counted as ASIAN countries.


Just so you know Russia is counted as EUROPEAN since the most of the country lies in Europe. I should know i am from Europe.
And your question for why not all of the Asians are called Asians; Well you live in U.S and you see that these 'Slant Eyed' people are in a much bigger majority then the others. In U.K The Indians, the bengals, the pakistanis are considered as asians as they are in majority there this goes for like all over Europe. Like here in Norway half of the bloody country contains ONLY Pakistanis.

bossel
24-03-04, 13:59
Just so you know Russia is counted as EUROPEAN since the most of the country lies in Europe. I should know i am from Europe.
I'm from Europe, too. Doesn't mean very much, does it?

Russia is mostly counted as European not because most of the country lies in Europe (the bigger part, roughly 3/4, is Asian) but because most of the population lives in the European part & the capital is there, too.

Minty
27-06-06, 00:55
err the countries you listed are oriental as well. oriental is just another word for eastern. anyhow i persoanlly dont really think of the middle eastern or former USSR people as asian either. the term asian to me means the mogoloid race. while turks, russians, saudis, iraqis and the rest may be from asia they arent mogoloid. so the other people i would call by their country name or if i didnt know that by their region. so saudis, iraqis, kuwaitis, etc would be middle eastern. if i didnt know their country

Err Persians used to be called Asians in the Alexandra times. Indians are not necessarily Mongoloid they can be Caucasoid too.

In France, the word "Oriental" means Middle Eastern. This is funny how different the meaning this word is in British English, their "Oriental" is East
Asians like Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans.

In Australia, the word "Oriental" is not used on people. All East, South East and South Asians are Asians. But, I have seen the word "Oriental" used as a flavour of the Asian foods sold in Australian supermarkets.

I never heard of Orientals being an offensive word. I mean if Western people want to be rude to us East Asians they would call us "gooks."

No-name
27-06-06, 02:11
In the US, Oriental is very antiquated-- like calling African Americans "colored." Asian is the more current term. I guess in that respect we are similar to Australia. Oriental refers to rugs and food. Asian refers to everyon from the continent... although Middle Easterners and East Indians are usually not called asians...

I guess it is not too offensive. I can think of several terms that are more offensive.

Minty
27-06-06, 22:53
I see, then in the US I have to be very careful in the choice of words I use, I always thought African American is an ok term but apparently not.:bluush:

No-name
27-06-06, 23:08
African American is the current prefered term, and I see nothing wrong with refering to a person as Black... (a couple of friends- a teacher and an aide are from Nigeria, they are African or Black, but not African American.)

My wife is Creole. She is neither "Black" nor "African American"... according to Creoles, they are special- a tri-racial isolate of French, Indian and Black and kinda snooty and aristocratic about the whole race thing.