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Satori
18-03-04, 06:28
"Meet Your Meat" video: http://www.meetyourmeat.com/

Mandylion
18-03-04, 06:37
Just to add, things can be graphic at times.

Satori
18-03-04, 06:40
Just to add, things can be graphic at times.

Thanks for adding that, Mandylion! I forgot to add that.

bossel
18-03-04, 13:19
I like eating meat & won't become a vegan.
I prefer to get my meat from animals kept under acceptable circumstances, though.

jeisan
18-03-04, 13:43
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Vines/3652/
http://www.vrg.org/nutshell/omni.htm

strongvoicesforward
03-04-06, 18:32
"Meet Your Meat" video: http://www.meetyourmeat.com/

Oh yes, please do meet your meat.

Nice thread in the archive. I have more to feed it. hehehehe.

strongvoicesforward
03-04-06, 18:54
Really! What are flesh eaters to do? A canundrum is at hands. Don`t cook your meat enough and you run the risk of e-coli. Now, cook it too much and prostate cancer may be around the corner. Oh, the adventurous and risky lives of flesh eaters!

A news report is out telling the dangers of barbecued meats linked with prosteate cancer.

News excerpt:
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A compound formed when meat is charred at high temperatures -- as in barbecue -- encourages the growth of prostate cancer in rats, researchers reported on Sunday.

Their study, presented at a meeting of the American Association for Cancer Research, may help explain the link between eating meat and a higher risk of prostate cancer. ...

The compound, called PhIP, is formed when meat is cooked at very high temperatures, Dr. Angelo De Marzo and colleagues at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore reported. ...

"For humans, the biggest problem is that it's extremely difficult to tell how much PhIP you've ingested, since different amounts are formed depending on cooking conditions." ...

Now, I know that the most probable replies to this will be from people who latch on to the word gmighth above, as if that is their way out to keep justifying their eating meat in the face of dangers. So be it. Other than that, flesh eaters always have the old back up, gjust cook it properly between the dangers of overcooked and undercooked,h or the gall is fine in moderation.h

But, I have to ask, what is that summer charcoal smell of burnt flesh wafting through the air of back yards? Most certainly friends and family having a good time, ... along with the smell of prostate cancer and future x-rays, exploratory surgury, chemo, nervous friends and families in waiting rooms etc...


*Full news story HERE. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060403/hl_nm/cancer_bbq_dc)

nice gaijin
03-04-06, 22:19
2 years is quite a deep grave to exhume for a thread, but since it died such a quick death...

One thing I've noticed is the lack of effectiveness of the "shock value" on people who have already established their eating habits. Showing them how things are might make them say "oh my god I never realized it was like this, I'll never eat meat again" will last about a month, if that.

Not to use him as an example, but Bossel's reply is quite common in the sense that nobody wants the animals they eat to suffer. But there's a huge disconnect between people in modern countries nowadays. Perhaps that's what this video is trying to address, but I think it's going about it in an ineffective way.

No-name
03-04-06, 22:49
I would have to agree with Bossel.

As a kid, I cleaned fish often. Almost every week. I met them. I ate them. I also cleaned birds and small game. I hated it. I ate them anyway. We had a goat once. Had goat milk...and later goat meat. It wasn't a pet...but I was too young to remember meeting the goat. Ditto for the rabbits we briefly raised to make ends meet...and the chickens...and one hell of a mean goose who survived. We also watched the Castillo family raise and butcher animals chickens mostly, but also goats and the occasional cow-- next door. It was a big deal, followed by a big BBQ...all in East LA. Met them. Ate them.

Today I don't eat much meat at all. But it has nothing to do with some forced morality. I think everyone should know exatly what and how their food gets to their plate... that beef doesn't just come from the supermarket, but from an animal that was once living. I think we need to know how these animals are kept and slaughtered and then decide if it is a good thing from the information we have. I have decided to continue to consume my fellow creatures, but I believe it to be an informed decision.

strongvoicesforward
04-04-06, 04:54
2 years is quite a deep grave to exhume for a thread, but since it died such a quick death...

Yes, much too quick. But, since I have the powers to resurrect, I have decided to revive it with some "shock treatment" to get the pulse beating again.

<STAND BACK> GO! <PAPUMP> AGAIN! <PAPUMP>
We got a beat!



One thing I've noticed is the lack of effectiveness of the "shock value" on people who have already established their eating habits.

Do you have a wide spread study with data on this? or Are you just musing about those in your daily life you have come in contact with?


Showing them how things are might make them say "oh my god I never realized it was like this, I'll never eat meat again" will last about a month, if that.

For some, yes. For others, no. I saw the video and would have to say I did not change back after "a month." Indeed, it left a deep impression. I am assuming that I am not so unique that it has not done so to others as well. This video is one of the most aggressively pushed to the forefront by PETA in the fight for educating people and getting more people to change their eating habits to that being a vegetarian diet. PETA`s membership and money pledges continue to grow. Obviously, they are pushing the right buttons for turning themselves into the largest AR orgs in the world and this video is an integrel part of that strategy.


Not to use him as an example, but Bossel's reply is quite common in the sense that nobody wants the animals they eat to suffer. But there's a huge disconnect between people in modern countries nowadays.

Agreed.


Perhaps that's what this video is trying to address, but I think it's going about it in an ineffective way.

Disagree. This video is one of PETA`s most succesful and longest running video. It is one of the cornerstones of their fight against factory farming and many have been moved by it and it has helped to cause thought on the issue resulting in change of eating habits. Again, it did me and I am sure I am not the only one amongst the nearly 1 million official PETA members -- not to mention many who are PETA supporters but just not paying members.

*Those visiting this thread for the first time, go to post #1 to watch the video.

Tokis-Phoenix
04-04-06, 05:24
As shocking as the video is, i've seen worse. Cows have it worse now days with the invention of " 0 grazing". "sigh"...But those are all bactery, barn range and intensive farmed animals. Free range and organic is often a completely different matter- organic means that the farmer cannot feed the animal chemicals that induce weight gain, and the foods fed to the animal cannot consist of other animal products(there are some other things too that an organic license will benefet the animal but i can't remember them from the top of my head for now). Free range is obvious- animals are let outside to roam around in feilds. Barn range is really no different than battery range though, the only difference being the animals in question are in a barn instead of a cage inside a barn, but they are often crammed into so many thousands they have even less space than battery farmed animals at times. Intensive farmed animals mainly refers to the foods and chemicals the animals are fed and the methods used to make them produce whatever their they are there for.
A peice of meat that looks healthy does not mean a healthy animal, if the scars the animal obtained during its life, mental and physical, appeared on the meat i am sure most people would not even touch it. But there are still signs if you know where to look for them- when i was a child i used to eat bacon for breakfast a lot, often when i was cooking the rashes/slices of bacon i'd notice their were hard muscle like lumps in the meat, somtimes as hard as bone; at the time i just assumed it was a part of the pig, what i didn't know is it was cancer. The vast majority of barn range, battery and intensively farmed animals get cancer from the chemicals and foods they are fed. From a human perspective, what is worrying for us, is that these high cancer causing chemicals are often not digested thoroughly by the animal and end up in our plates.
I was brought up on a farm, amoungst some of the animals we kept, we kept chickens(their numbers would range between 12 and 50), mainly as pets but also for their eggs and meat. One thing that really strikes my heart about battery and barn range chickens is the conditions they are kept in. Chickens are full of life. They care for their chicks for around 6-9months after brooding on the fertilised eggs for between 1 and 2months. The mother hen talks to her chicks, believe it or not, they actually have a language of sorts and use different sounds to comunicate with each different sound meaning different things, the chicks get accustomised to their mothers voice while they are still in their eggs as they can hear her as she talks to them, so when they hatch they can recognise her. I learned to recognise various sounds the chickens used between each other as a child as i spent much time with them, most "words" they use consist of "i'm warm and happy(often used by the chicks)", "i've just layed an egg!", "somthings wrong/i'm distressed!", "i'm confused", "i'm angry with you", "whats up?", "i'm hurt/depressed" etc. They are certainly not dumb animals.
They can recognise each other, by appearance and sound, they also remember each other in the long term, females will often use this when looking for a rooster to join as they work out which rooster treats them the nicest, naturally a rooster will fight with other roosters to impress the females, females that like him will join his group and follow him around. He may show her places where there's good food, or find good sites for nesting so she has somwhere safe to lay her eggs(he may even go so far as shaping out a nest for her), or offer her protection from other chickens that try to bully her. In return she'll let him mate with her, although this isn't always assured and he may have to further impress her with his appearance by "dancing" or displaying his strength in some form or another. Chickens enjoy dust bathing and sun bathing, socialising, enjoying good food(they'll eat practically anything, they are not confined to seeds and insects, when i was a kid i used to make them treats like giving them poridge and bannanas, or soggy dog biscuts and meat) and raising chicks. There is a lot to chickens.
But yeah, we deny them of all of that when we barn range or battery farm them. A mother hen will never see her chicks just as much as they will never see her- chickens can live up to 14 years old(i know this because i once had a rooster that lived to ths age), but the average life expectancy for a battery chicken is between 6months and a year average. It is painful for them to lay eggs, usually a normal chicken lays an egg every day or 2, somtimes less, and takes a 3-4 month break from laying during the winter depending on the weather. Battery chickens lay dozens of eggs a day due to the chemicals they are given. I once worked in a scotch egg factory, they used battery farmed eggs, one of my jobs once was to remove the deformed eggs- before then i had only once seen once deformed egg before, but now i saw hundreds every day (like ones with sandpaper sharp calcium deposits on them, or ones with undigested chicken food in them or no yolks- i even once found a peice of wood in one once). The chickens must have been very sick to lay eggs like that...
I could go on, but you get the jist of things i take it. We treat battery, barn range and intensively farmed animals incredibly inhumanely, like we are demons of hell. But do i blame the farmers who do this...? No. Partly because you cannot blame people for not having morals, but mainly because its the governments fault, for legalising and seriously incouraging this way of farming, and also the consumer, who refuses to open their eyes.
Macdonalds, sure it taste great, i used to eat it many years ago before i found out how badly many farm animals are treated, but where the heck to you think they get cheap animal products like that? Its all battery, intensive and barn range. I think teh saying holds true, that you are what you eat- especially if you are aware of this and could afford not to eat it :okashii: .

nice gaijin
04-04-06, 08:07
Do you have a wide spread study with data on this? or Are you just musing about those in your daily life you have come in contact with?
I'm afraid I have no numbers for you, but I was told this by a professor who has much in his curriculum about the dangers, toxicity, and general unhealthfulness that arises from the way we farm and raise livestock. Over 25 years he has had countless students come to him with the same exultations of conversion to vegetarianism after realizing the horrors of the meatpacking industry, only to slip back into those eating habits by the next term. He adjusted his curriculum to slowly acclimate his students to such truths to reduce the "oh my god how did i sign up for this hippy liberal ****" factor, and found a higher "success" rate of students willing to make geniune efforts toward cutting meat out of their diet.

Personally, I find that there are behaviors that are constructive, and behaviors that are destructive. It seems that PETA wants to right the wrongs of humanity towards our animal neighbors, but even righteous motivation doesn't make for constructive behavior.

Thor
04-04-06, 08:36
I know that animals aren't stupid. I get urges to go vegetarian sometimes. I dunno if that would do any good. I can't eat a piece of chicken while I know it could have been a mother that communicated with it's babies before ending up on my plate. It's a bit depressing too.

strongvoicesforward
04-04-06, 08:56
I know that animals aren't stupid. I get urges to go vegetarian sometimes. I dunno if that would do any good. I can't eat a piece of chicken while I know it could have been a mother that communicated with it's babies before ending up on my plate. It's a bit depressing too.

I am happy to hear you considering it.

Our choices do have the ability to lessen suffering. To offer life through amnesty and mercy, rather than extinguishing it for reasons that are satisfied with substitutes, we can make a difference.
-------------------------------------------------
*For those joining the thread at this point, be sure to at least go to and read post #1 to catch up.

Tokis-Phoenix
04-04-06, 09:11
I know that animals aren't stupid. I get urges to go vegetarian sometimes. I dunno if that would do any good. I can't eat a piece of chicken while I know it could have been a mother that communicated with it's babies before ending up on my plate. It's a bit depressing too.

I'm not a vegetarian, but i eat very little meat (really just beef, maybe once a month or less). I know SVF will disagree with me here, but i don't its wrong to eat animals as long as they are treated well and their basic requirements are attended to properly (like given good healthy food, allowed to live outdoors, allowed to have their social and health needs attended properly like if the animal gets sick its taken to a vet and treated and not left to rot etc), and are killed in a humane manner.
Some of the methods of slaughter/euthanasia are relatively humane shown in video, some are not at all (by "humane" i mean the time it takes to kill the animal and the amount of stress/suffering it causes)-I would personally say bolt guns are quite humane, as they kill the animal instantly when used correctly (a bolt gun is essentially a gun that shoots out and retracts a metal bolt in a split second, destroying the animals brain and thus killing it instantly), while slicing the animals throat and letting it bleed to death is incredibly inhumane IMO, it causes a huge amount of suffering and takes a very long time to kill (i "think" it can be up to 30mins with some large animals like cows or pigs) the animal. If i had a choice to be killed by a bolt gun or having my throat sliced when my time was up, i would choose a bolt gun in an instant.
So, know your animal and know its killer. The only place i buy meat from (except from one exception this year), is my local butcher, because they are able to tell me which farms the animals come from, what breeds of animals they were, and what slaughter house they went to. And don't just settle for organic or free range, only settle for both, as only that way will you know for sure you are getting somthing better than battery, intensive, barn range or GM farmed animals or animal products. When it comes to animal products, you must also consider that practically all the lovely things like eggs, milk, lard and gelatine that end up in the cakes, chocolates, fast food etc are all barn or battery range. So just giving up the raw products is only a start.
I admit i'm not perfect, i try very hard to act on my beliefs, i find it very easy not to eat things like chicken, eggs, pork (i gave up pork relatively recently after a long phase of cutting it out, been 2months now since i last had it) etc but its the other products like cake and chocolate that i find difficult to stop eating. I've been steadily giving up one thing at a time now though for the last couple of years. I'm not sure where all this is going to lead though, i'm not aiming to become a vegetarian or anything. I would eventually like to give up all meat apart from pheasant (very rarely ever get to eat it, but it is so lush, and is not farmed at all where i get it from) and some types of fish.

But, yeah, what you do in life is your decision and totally up to you.

Tokis-Phoenix
04-04-06, 09:49
I would also like to add some more things i learnt and noticed from chickens during my life with them.
Another thing that i noticed that proved to me they were intelligent animals was their ability to work out things and their care for each other at times. For example, the chickens really liked dog food. On the farm, for most of my life, we had 2 dogs in particular (both female black labradors). The first and oldest one was muffet, she really was a pig of a dog- she would eat practically everything and often as much of it as posible given a chance (i even saw her try to eat a cow pat once), her body kinda looked like a pigs as well, not really the typical image of the atheletic, slender and graceful loyal labrador image :blush: . The second dog was rissa(pronounced "ry-sah"), she was a very beautiful labrador, quite shy and very kind hearted and loyal, she never had much of an apetite though. We used to feed them together at feeding time, but soon muffet started gobbling down her food so she could eat risca's before she's finished, so we had to start feeding muffet indoors and rissa outdoors.
The chickens soon realised rissa was been fed dog food, so they tried to steal it, but they wern't really sure how to approach a dog (rissa had a heart of gold, she would never kill any animal deliberatly, but the chickens were naturally suspicious of her). So what they used to do, is come together in a group of around 12+, and slowly move towards her. Rissa would soon notice their advance and pick up her dog bowl and move it away, but the chickens would corner her. When she was cornered she would run for it, and the chickens would rush to her food bowl and gobble up whatever food was left lol. They were only minature bantam chickens, so they were just bigger than say, pigeons, but rissa actually become quite nervous of them even though she could have easily taken them all down- their ability to organise themselves into a group and follow through a plan to get food over a much bigger adversary proved to me that they were very intelligent little birds :49: :30: :30: .
Chickens also were very nice to each other at times(the only times they wern't was when the roosters were fighting, or in the case where 2 hens had a lot of chicks and one of the other hens chicks got mixed up with theirs, they would peck the chick to chase it away, but this was only natural instinct and often depended on the individual hen as they all have different personalities, they were often very tolerent of each others chicks when they didn't have too many to look after though other than that and the hens with chicks would often hang out together :50: ). Chickens that liked each other would often groom each other by gently picking off any parasites like skin mites around each others heads where they otherwise could not get them; they really like having their "ears" stroked! Chickens actually have ears, but its more like a sensitive peice of skin on either side of the head covered by special feathers, i used to stroke their ears when i was a kid as they really liked it and would often fall asleep on my lap while doing this :bluush: .

Thunderthief
04-04-06, 10:46
They are tastey when its all with over though... there sacrafice's are not in vein.

KrazyKat
04-04-06, 10:50
I'm not a vegetarian, but i eat very little meat (really just beef, maybe once a month or less). I know SVF will disagree with me here, but i don't its wrong to eat animals as long as they are treated well and their basic requirements are attended to properly (like given good healthy food, allowed to live outdoors, allowed to have their social and health needs attended properly like if the animal gets sick its taken to a vet and treated and not left to rot etc), and are killed in a humane manner.

I very much support you here. The gap between 'good and 'bad' here is most definately between free range meat and factory farmed meat not vegetarian and meat eater. I feel that AR and AW organisations are failing to promote free range meat and other products enough. What does annoy me is people who say 'I would be vegetarain but I would miss meat too much' but then are still buying factory farmed meat!

The meat-your-meat video worked for me, but I was already slowly becoming a vetgetarian at the time. Realising how some animals are treated just kind of 'solidified' the change. I agree with nice gaijin saying that a sudden change to vegetarianism is likely to result in a return to meat eating. I would say the most effective way is to slowly cut out meat, and replace that which is still being eaten with free range meat.

Tokis-Phoenix
04-04-06, 10:52
They are tastey when its all with over though... there sacrafice's are not in vein.

Would you really want to eat animals that live and are treated like that though? Would you really want to eat animal that has been pumped full of chemicals and hormones, covered in untreated ulcers/fungal deseases and parasites?
Do you have any pets?

Tokis-Phoenix
04-04-06, 11:21
I very much support you here. The gap between 'good and 'bad' here is most definately between free range meat and factory farmed meat not vegetarian and meat eater. I feel that AR and AW organisations are failing to promote free range meat and other products enough. What does annoy me is people who say 'I would be vegetarain but I would miss meat too much' but then are still buying factory farmed meat!
The meat-your-meat video worked for me, but I was already slowly becoming a vetgetarian at the time. Realising how some animals are treated just kind of 'solidified' the change. I agree with nice gaijin saying that a sudden change to vegetarianism is likely to result in a return to meat eating. I would say the most effective way is to slowly cut out meat, and replace that which is still being eaten with free range meat.

Thankyou for your support :) . The way i see it, the biggest problem here is how we treat animals that are intended for farming purposes/our consumption in some way or another- you cannot destroy the demand for meat, its a natural part of our human diet and people will always want it, so there will always be people that support our demand for animal products. But we have no real reason or justification to treat animals so badly, i know that england (the country i was brought up and live in) could live easily without the likes of battery, intensive, barn range, 0 grazing and GM farming etc.
Battery and barn range farming and all the other nasty forms of farming are turning into buisness giants now days, the few farms that still try to keep the old values and try to practice good farming and animal management are finding it more and more difficult to compete with the bad farming giants.
Most of it comes down to what the consumer demands- people want cheap, perfect looking food. Cosmetic value demands in supermarkets when it comes to plants/veg and fruit are becomming harder and harder to attain to for the farmers. Potatoes for example, simply do not grow into nice bulky round similar sized shapes- most grow pretty randomly into any odd size or shape. A lot of the traditional varieties do not have long shelf life or hardyness, so they often suffer badly in the transportation and packaging processes. So farmers have to grow GM potatoes covered in pesticides, and only use specialy modified varieties that are already used by the farming giants to have any chance of selling any. I heard the story of one local farmer who had a contract with a large supermarket(tesco's) for selling potatoes, he grew organic ones, one year the supermarket rejected 50,000 potatoes just because they were not round enough! He lost thousands of pounds, he ended up feeding the potatoes to his cows...
But do i blame the supermarket? I cannot, because its the consumer who controls these things- if the consumer wants perfect shaped potatoes, then thats what the market supplies and the consumer gets, and any farmers who cannot meet these demands loses out. Supermarkets and importing cheap foriegn foods is killing thousands of good farms over here every year because they can no longer survive these issues...Did you know that there are actually 800 varieties of apples that do not end up in our supermarkets because their shelf life is too short(i.e. do not last for more than 2months), but only 8 varieties do? How many apple types can you name? Real strawberries should not "bounce" when dropped, but they all do now because they have been bred to because it increases their lastability :okashii: .
The price of meat is what fuels the bad animal farming practices though...The only way you can get peice of chicken or beef for a couple of pounds or less, is to use the nasty intensive farming methods. People get what they pay for though. What people don't seem to comprehend is that by buying these food products they are only fueling an extremely immoral and inhuman way of buisness/farming. The way i see it, if you want to make a difference, you don't have to be a vegetarian, you don't have to go to protests or rallies or only wear hemp clothes and eat soya, you don't have give up eating chocolate or whatever, you don't have to even give up eating meat- one of the biggest and easiest ways you can start making an easy difference, is next time you buy eggs for example, instead of buying the 20p battery chicken ones, pick the 30p free range ones off the shelf instead and buy them. 10p's difference can make a lot of change, and can save a lot of pain. You don't have to give up bad farmed products completely, but for every one that you stop buying, and for every good farmed product you buy, you are making difference.
I totally support those who are against bad farming, but i think many people find the demands made by such supporters too daunting- what i think we tend to forget, is that little differences still count. I think we should try to support good farming, to help make a better world for animals and people. I think this would also be a realistic approach too, as we can never extinguish the demand for meat and animal products in our race, so we might as go about such things the right way, at the very least, a better way :cool: .

Thunderthief
04-04-06, 11:29
Would you really want to eat animals that live and are treated like that though? Would you really want to eat animal that has been pumped full of chemicals and hormones, covered in untreated ulcers/fungal deseases and parasites?
Do you have any pets?Its all clean when it comes out, and im sure if I wind up dying from it my next of ken will get a large cash settlement from it anyway, not that its going to happen.

I work on my grandpa's farm during the summer, sorry if the video doesnt "touch" me because I do it myself first hand. All they show you in this video is the sick and injured ones, and from first hand experience working on the farm there usually pretty healthy.

This video is full of gross exadurations, and stuffed corporate conditions, most family run farms take much better care of there animals than that... hell we even feed our pigs and stuff candy to make them fatter. Our chickens have an open, outside caged area with plunty of grass and things to scruff around in, and the cattle have a large open pasture.

not our fault city people keep there animals in stuffed little boxes and beat them

Tokis-Phoenix
04-04-06, 12:52
Its all clean when it comes out, and im sure if I wind up dying from it my next of ken will get a large cash settlement from it anyway, not that its going to happen.
I work on my grandpa's farm during the summer, sorry if the video doesnt "touch" me because I do it myself first hand. All they show you in this video is the sick and injured ones, and from first hand experience working on the farm there usually pretty healthy.
This video is full of gross exadurations, and stuffed corporate conditions, most family run farms take much better care of there animals than that... hell we even feed our pigs and stuff candy to make them fatter. Our chickens have an open, outside caged area with plunty of grass and things to scruff around in, and the cattle have a large open pasture.
not our fault city people keep there animals in stuffed little boxes and beat them

The video shows battery, intensive and barn range considitions and standard mass slaughthouse proceedure or slaughter within the farms themselves and a bit of market practice etc. To say
They are tastey when its all with over though... there sacrafice's are not in vein. in a thread primarily about the video, suggests that you think the way those animals were treated was fine/a good cause. Your experience, if its anything good, is not the norm now days but more of a rarity in most places, so you really need to open your eyes beyond your grandfathers farm.

strongvoicesforward
04-04-06, 15:02
Oh, this thread really has come to life again after a two year dormancy! I knew she had more life in her.

So much has been said since I last posted, it will take a while to catch up on everything, but I will.

Toqis made a lot of good points. Her and I aren`t too far off from each other on a lot of things, I can see.

Thunderthief
04-04-06, 15:05
Well... there going to be eaten anyway. I dont understand why it matters what happens to them before hand. Don't get me wrong I don't approve of animal cruelity, but you beating your bacon, beating your steak and your chicken popers.

Why does it matter?

strongvoicesforward
04-04-06, 16:08
We treat battery, barn range and intensively farmed animals incredibly inhumanely, like we are demons of hell.

Well said. It is true. To shove a number of hens into a cage so that they cannot even stretch their wings for the existance of their whole life, to continuosly frustrate them by not allowing them to exercise their natural desires of flapping in a dirt bath -- turns us into demons as they are tortured for our pleasure of palate and low price. Some are happy in their monstrocities -- I prefer to exercise mercy and compassion. Suffering matters to me.


But do i blame the farmers who do this...? No. Partly because you cannot blame people for not having morals, but mainly because its the governments fault, for legalising and seriously incouraging this way of farming, and also the consumer, who refuses to open their eyes.

I am of the thought all are guilty. Some a little more than others, but in the end it is the consumer who fuels the machine.


Macdonalds, sure it taste great, i used to eat it many years ago before i found out how badly many farm animals are treated, but where the heck to you think they get cheap animal products like that? Its all battery, intensive and barn range. I think the saying holds true, that you are what you eat- especially if you are aware of this and could afford not to eat it

It does make one heartless when they can`t opt to turn from a system that perpetuates heartlessness to creatures that suffer. It`s a small thing to do, but many are just indignant to think that their palate should come second to the suffering of an animal.

strongvoicesforward
04-04-06, 16:14
Well... there going to be eaten anyway. I dont understand why it matters what happens to them before hand. Don't get me wrong I don't approve of animal cruelity, but you beating your bacon, beating your steak and your chicken popers.
Why does it matter?

Reminds me of the scene in Schindler`s list where the Jews are on the cattle car at the station sticking their hands out through the windows for water that was leaking from a nearby hose. They were all suffering in the box car`s stifling heat cram packed in it. The Nazis were all just sitting around and then up comes Schindler, grabbing the hose and spraying the water to those in the box car.

The Nazis just started laughing so hard at Schindler telling him to stop giving them hope and that they were all destined to death anyway so it just didn`t matter.

That is the argument of futility minus compassion for suffering. It is always wrong -- even when that suffering can be alleviated for a short time regardless of what the predetermined destiny is of those suffering.

Reiku
04-04-06, 16:42
Well, there is a point to be made for the argument that if you're going to kill something you've already made the decision that it's rights are not important.

I'm not trying to say what's right and wrong--just that you should be consistant. If you don't value a given animal's rights--be it human or otherwise--then there's no need to show it consideration or mercy, you've already made that decision and chosen not to.

If however, you're killing something only because you feel your (or someone else's) needs outweigh it's own, then I can understand making it's death as painless as possible--and perhaps even pampering the thing prior to killing it.

I'm reminded of a woman I knew who's family kept pigs as pets, before slaughtering them for food. When she was a girl, she'd invite her freinds over for breakfast and then horrify them by pointing to the bacon on her plate and asking her mom "Is this Tasty or Sweety?" Those being the former names of the pet pigs who now occupied the family freezer.

No-name
04-04-06, 17:19
Reiku I was going to say that you had a good point in answer to Thunderchief's "who cares what you do to your meat before you kill it?" I began to say that no one should name their meat like your friend did or beat their meat before killing it, but it sounded really really wrong.

Reiku
04-04-06, 18:06
Yeah, I thought it was hillarious myself--but I'm a twistedly evil bastard.

What was really funny is that this woman is an almost sickeningly devout and goody-goody christian--we were in the parking lot of her church setting up for a band that was going to be playing there when she told the story.

It just goes to show that right and wrong really are in the eye of the beholder. She had no problem loving and caring for those pigs one day, and eating them the next, but I can't honestly say that she was evil or cruel or even misguided--she just had a different view of the matter than most people.

Look at it this way: If you've ever washed your hands with dial, you are a mass murderer who's killed millions of animals without a hint of regret or even a moment's thought for the lives you took.

But we don't think the lives of bacteria are important.

It's all in how you look at it, and everyone has their own perspective. Me, I think cows are the tastiest things on the planet, and don't particularly care if people have to die to get me a good cut of fillet mingion.

Seriously, you should see me in line for the teppan grill at Yanagi's. :evil:

Thunderthief
05-04-06, 02:50
Theres nothing wrong with keeping them as pets before eating them, just some people get to attached... I had a hard time keeping my mother away from the rabbit cages, she would start naming them and throw a fit when it was time.

strongvoicesforward
05-04-06, 05:53
Over 25 years he has had countless students come to him with the same exultations of conversion to vegetarianism after realizing the horrors of the meatpacking industry, only to slip back into those eating habits by the next term. He adjusted his curriculum to slowly acclimate his students to such truths to reduce the "oh my god how did i sign up for this hippy liberal ****" factor, and found a higher "success" rate of students willing to make geniune efforts toward cutting meat out of their diet.

Ok, Nice Gaijin, now I see what you were saying.

Oh, I completely agree with you that not "one thing" in particular is the best thing or way to cause something to "stick" (i.e. returning to eating flesh after trying to become a vegetarian). So, you are right, in that for many people, just the video (See here ---> " MEET YOUR MEAT (http://www.goveg.com/factoryFarming.asp) ") would not be enough to keep them for falling back into eating meat. In that case, I am fully supportive of the professor`s way he goes about it in order to shore up a person`s resolve to stop consuming flesh.

Quiting cold turkey is hard. I, myself, took about 6 weeks to give it up. Gradually, little by little, I cut a different kind of meat out of my diet every week to 10 days. But, Peta`s video was one of the major forces that caused me to move to do so.


Personally, I find that there are behaviors that are constructive, and behaviors that are destructive. It seems that PETA wants to right the wrongs of humanity towards our animal neighbors, but even righteous motivation doesn't make for constructive behavior.

Nice Gaijin, while it is true PETA has not won total animal liberation, they have had many successes in lessening and alleviating cruelty and the suffering of animals. You aren`t going to deny that, are you? Have you followed news stories on them for the last 20 years? If not, then you are surely unaware of their successes.

As for their behavior, they are not perfect. They make mistakes. Any large org will do so and it is only inevitable that a million members will from time make make mistakes. As a whole though, they have been quite constructive with imparting the message of vegetarianism and winning court cases to stop animal cruelty. Furthermore, they have been a major influence with some clothing and food stores in convincing them to discontinue some products and demand that suppliers make kinder alternatives in how they raise and keep their livestock.

But, there is a lot still left to be done. We have not fooled ourselves on that count.

Reiku
05-04-06, 10:19
I'm going to deny that PETA has had success in alleviating animal suffering:

For every cow, chicken, or pig they save, there's a hundred omnivorous humans they've tortured with their continuous attacks on our beleifs and our way of life.

You can try to belittle the harm that this does, but the psychological damage inflicted by such hotile bigotry is immense. PETA is trying to wipe my kind from the face of the earth, that they prefer means more subtle and indirect than a execution camps is small consolation.

Do you know how it feels, to know that there is a powerful group of people who are opposed to your very existance? That they will turn your children against you, pass laws against your way of life, pressure and attack those who support you? And even worse, knowing that that the majority of people--even if they don't agree with that group--don't see anything wrong with what the group is doing?

It's like anti-semitism, or the more recent push against homosexuals--and it is completely disgusting to me.

Listen to your words, SVF. Compare them to the speeches of the Nazi's, filled with pride and admiration for their shining goal of wiping out a group of people whose beliefs were different to theirs.

At least the Nazi's had the courage to fight and risk their lives in battle for what they believed--while PETA sits in safety and comfort, striking from a distance through laws and manipulations of public opinion.

If you want to remove me from the world, pick up a sword--and take your chances.

strongvoicesforward
05-04-06, 18:16
But we don't think the lives of bacteria are important.


Reductionist argument that supports the "Why bother?" line of thought based on futility.

Dismissed.

strongvoicesforward
05-04-06, 18:42
I'm going to deny that PETA has had success in alleviating animal suffering:
For every cow, chicken, or pig they save, there's a hundred omnivorous humans they've tortured with their continuous attacks on our beleifs and our way of life.

Exageration does little to convince -- but it does lead to chuckles.

Peta has clearly had many successes at helping animals. I will discuss some in the future, but if you can`t wait then please go to PETA (http://peta.org/) yourself to see.


You can try to belittle the harm that this does, but the psychological damage inflicted by such hotile bigotry is immense. PETA is trying to wipe my kind from the face of the earth, that they prefer means more subtle and indirect than a execution camps is small consolation.

Funny!

We are not trying to "wipe your kind from the face of the earth," -- just your eating habits and view of animal usage. You are still permitted to exist as a human -- which is the "kind" of animal you are.


Do you know how it feels, to know that there is a powerful group of people who are opposed to your very existance?

lol. Oh man! I just can`t stop. I am laughing so hard that I feel like I am watching an episode of The Family Guy.

Anyways...to use your verbage...

Do you know how it feels to know that there is a powerful group of people who are opposed to you not being a target for digestion, exploitation, and testing?

Jews most certainly do in the category of the latter two. There is a disportortionate number of Jews in the Animal Liberation movement compared to other ethnic/religio groups. Perhaps their history as a group targeted for exploitaton causes many of them to empathise and join the movement. Yes, they know how it feels and have been raised on stories of how it feels.


That they will turn your children against you,...

Then you haven`t been very convincing in teaching your values to your children.


...pass laws against your way of life,...

Hey, that`s democracy. Gotta love it.


...pressure and attack those who support you?

Never good to reinvent the wheel. Use what history has shown us to be successful with. Perhaps those targeted shouldn`t cave so easily to continue encouraging future tactics that they give the message as being effective. Why don`t they be martyres and go down for what they believe in? Perhaps they don`t really believe in it -- they just believe in the profit of it up until the heat in the kitchen causes a little uncomfortableness.


And even worse, knowing that that the majority of people--even if they don't agree with that group--don't see anything wrong with what the group is doing?

Because an inner voice in the majority of the people may be telling then that the group is right. Either that, or they are blind to the agitation for change or apathy has a hold on them. We benefit from all that. ;-)


It's like anti-semitism, or the more recent push against homosexuals--and it is completely disgusting to me.

Not at all. The AR movement is one which is seeking to win rights for animals -- extending those rights that do not impose upon integrity of body. The Jews' bodies definitely had their integrity violated.

PETA has almost 1 million people as members. I am sure there are many homosexuals amongst their members. I don`t think they feel PETA is putting forth anything like something that is denying rights to them -- except in convincing the public to give up meat or to legislate slowly and surely against the corporations that proffit from blood.

strongvoicesforward
05-04-06, 18:53
Listen to your words, SVF. Compare them to the speeches of the Nazi's, filled with pride and admiration for their shining goal of wiping out a group of people whose beliefs were different to theirs.

Innacurrate analogy. The Nazis have decided to cleanse their race and rid the world of Jews through extermination. Where has PETA ever talked about exterminating the flesh eaters?

btw, are you getting warmed up and ready to call me a Nazi like you did on the hunting thread and hope for animals to rip me to pieces -- in effect causing the discussion and thread to be locked? I would hope this time that Admin/mod action is targeted accurately at you by having that post you are tempted to make deleted, if in fact it does come about, rather than punishing the whole thread by locking it.

Please practice discipline with your language of direct accusations, Reiku. I can handle things if you want to cleverly insinuate or allude to things, but I don`t appreciate the pro-noun "You" followed by words for wishing violence upon me or calling me names pajoratively.

strongvoicesforward
05-04-06, 19:05
At least the Nazi's had the courage to fight and risk their lives in battle for what they believed--while PETA sits in safety and comfort, striking from a distance through laws and manipulations of public opinion.


Well, at least we know who you admire more between the two. I will choose to sit down to the dinner or negotiation table with PETA any day over the Nazis. I think most sane people would.


If you want to remove me from the world, pick up a sword--and take your chances.

lol. No, Reiku, you are quite welcome to stay amongst us in the world. But, we would prefer you change your view on animals. PETA is not seeking you out for a sword fight.

However, if you are so attracted to such a duel with animal rightists, I would suggest you make yourself available at some of the demonstrations they show up for. You will find they are not all skinny hippy push overs like you have them out to be in your mind. They may take you up on your bravado. I recommend you find your nearest chapter of The Animal Defense League, WAR, or if possible, The Justice Department -- all groups which have been very up front with their leanings towards direct confrontation -- the latter being the most viseral of them and probably the ones most accomadating to your wishes -- if you can find them.

But as far as PETA members go, we have an official policy of being peaceful while under the PETA banner.

Thunderthief
05-04-06, 19:39
The way you compair the jewish race to animals constantly obviously shows your lack of respect for them. Animals aren't in any way equal to humans, and never will be, they merely exist for human convenience and food.

strongvoicesforward
05-04-06, 20:01
The way you compair the jewish race to animals constantly obviously shows your lack of respect for them.

Not at all. In fact, some Jews who have great respect for their own religio/ethncity also make the comparison of how their race was treated by the Nazis and how animals are often treated.

How do you know I am not of Jewish decent? Because you don`t, you need not focus on me.


Animals aren't in any way equal to humans, and never will be,...

It is not about equality. I for one don`t think cats have the equal right to free speech -- merely because they CAN`T. But, they can suffer. It is about not causing suffering.


...they merely exist for human convenience and food.

Most people do hold that view. However, a growing number of people are abandoning that view and laws and legislation protecting them are increasing.

Don`t sound so indignant that animals are getting more and more consideration to them by people -- and the courts ruling in favor of law suits and prosecutions brought about on their behalf. <snicker snicker>

Looks like the courts are not fully agreeing with you. Slowly but surely, a change of direction in the wind will come about, and in fact it is coming about.

You know how valley rivers are, don`t you? They start as trickles of melting snow high up in the mountains, almost imperceptible as moving water as it slowly finds its way down the mountain into small streams seeking out larger and larger ones until it finally ends up in the valley as raging torrents.

Welcome to the world of Animal Liberation. You should educate yourself on it to understand the undercurrents and movements that are taking place so that you can speak accurately against it as an informed participant.

Tsuyoiko
06-04-06, 14:13
Do you know how it feels, to know that there is a powerful group of people who are opposed to your very existance? That they will turn your children against you, pass laws against your way of life, pressure and attack those who support you? And even worse, knowing that that the majority of people--even if they don't agree with that group--don't see anything wrong with what the group is doing?
It's like anti-semitism, or the more recent push against homosexuals--and it is completely disgusting to me.I think this comparison is unfair - PETA are not trying to kill off meat-eaters, just change their beliefs and lifestyle. IMO, a better comparision would be religious missionaries - who also seek to change your beliefs and lifestyle - using some similar methods, such as campaigning for legislation, handing out literature, and preaching on street corners.

strongvoicesforward
07-04-06, 16:41
As shocking as the video is, i've seen worse.

I would hate to see worse, seeing how bad the video is (Seen HERE (http://www.goveg.com/factoryFarming.asp)). But, I do take your word for it.


Cows have it worse now days with the invention of " 0 grazing". "sigh"...But those are all factory, barn range and intensive farmed animals.

All true, Toqis.

The thing is though, nearly 80% of all meat that makes it to market for consumption is factory farmed. And that is what allows for the cheap prices at the supermarket -- and even at the butchers'. While many people will give lip service to saying they buy non-cruelty farmed animals, the fact of the matter is, the economics of the situation is showing us that factory farms are on the rise and the family farm is on decline.

One should never even entertain the thought that the 'not too expensive' steak or hamburger they have while out was brought to their table without considerable suffering throughout the animal`s life. If one is a regular flesh eater and is not careful about choosing free range animals for their dinners at home, in all probability one is supporting a very cruel life and death for animals.

Tokis-Phoenix
07-04-06, 17:22
I would hate to see worse, seeing how bad the video is (Seen HERE (http://www.goveg.com/factoryFarming.asp)). But, I do take your word for it.
All true, Toqis.
The thing is though, nearly 80% of all meat that makes it to market for consumption is factory farmed. And that is what allows for the cheap prices at the supermarket -- and even at the butchers'. While many people will give lip service to saying they buy non-cruelty farmed animals, the fact of the matter is, the economics of the situation is showing us that factory farms are on the rise and the family farm is on decline.
One should never even entertain the thought that the 'not too expensive' steak or hamburger they have while out was brought to their table without considerable suffering throughout the animal`s life. If one is a regular flesh eater and is not careful about choosing free range animals for their dinners at home, in all probability one is supporting a very cruel life and death for animals.

I agree, the way i see it, unless the animal product you are going to eat specifically says it is organic and/or free range, if it doesn't it probably isn't. My brother works at a big supermarket in England called Tesco's, he works primarily in the alchohol section, but often delves into the main food sections when help is needed.

Although he eats meat, he's in the same frame of mind as i am and only eats meat from my mums farm or from butchers he can trust- he's strongly against factory farming and all the other nasty methods of farming. Everytime (or whenever he can discretely get away with it) somone goes to buy the battery chicken eggs or bacon or whatever, he tells them about the suffering the animals go through and tries to convince them to buy the organic free range stuff- he says though that most people just don't want to hear about it. He says people know exactly how the animals are treated, but don't want to comprehend such stuff.

Protesting for things like animal rights around tesco's, like for most other major supermarkets in england, is illegal because the supermarket deliberatly buys the surrounding area partly to turn into car parking, but also so people can't protest for things the supermarket does not want or sponser as then it can prosecute them for tresspassing and things.
I'm sure if this was not so though, there'd be a heck of a lot of angry farmers its pushed out of buisness and animal rights and welfarists protesters and stuff though. Anyways, i'm not wanting to break the law. I'm convinced there are always other ways, always other options.

strongvoicesforward
07-04-06, 17:38
Although he eats meat, he's in the same frame of mind as i am and only eats meat from my mums farm or from butchers he can trust- he's strongly against factory farming and all the other nasty methods of farming.

The family farm is on the road toward extinction as a supplier to supermarket and butchers. Sure, there will probably be a few hold outs here and there, but for the most part, people will not have much of a choice.


Everytime (or whenever he can discretely get away with it) somone goes to buy the battery chicken eggs or bacon or whatever, he tells them about the suffering the animals go through and tries to convince them to buy the organic free range stuff- he says though that most people just don't want to hear about it. He says people know exactly how the animals are treated, but don't want to comprehend such stuff.

THAT IS RIGHT ON THE MONEY!

Even when a supermarket employee (your brother) informs them they still don`t want to hear it or change their ways. Why? Because it is about costs. People want to save a few dollars and they don`t mind doing it at the cost of suffering.

I have a few things to say about Free Range in the future but for now,

Good on your brother for informing customers.

Tokis-Phoenix
07-04-06, 18:24
The family farm is on the road toward extinction as a supplier to supermarket and butchers. Sure, there will probably be a few hold outs here and there, but for the most part, people will not have much of a choice.

I Agree. I think that the government does not do enough to promote good farming either, for both farms that primarily do crops/plants products and ones that do animal products a like.
Organic farmed plant products really isn't that much cheaper to produce organic food products than non-organic farming, what drives up the price though is the cosmetic standards the supermarkets enforce the transportation process which usually destroys most organuc food products.
What drives up the price of free range & organic animal products is competeticion from foriegn imported foods and the general cost to produce such things over here- we used to farm cows (we just rent out the land for them now days), but it got to a point where each cow was only worth/could be sold for 500's, but it was costing 600's to keep them- which makes it imposible to farm them using good practices when imported foods from places like brazil are selling beef/cows for like 300's or less.

When we used to farm our own cows, my mum insisted that the cows are slaughtered at 4+ years old instead of the normal 2 years or less, and the calves are allowed to stay with their mothers for 1 year instead of being separated at birth.
We farmed the cows purely for meat, no dairy farming. We didn't slaughter the calves, male or female, like most farmers do now days, but instead allowed them to reach adulthood (if we had dairy farmed the cows though we would probably have had to slaughter the male calves as many farmers see male calf dairy cow breeds as worthless as breeds specifically bred for dairy farming often do not produce good quality meat).
My mum decided it was better to give up farming the cows instead of adopt the bad farming methods that most other farmers have had to adopt with cow farming to survive.
I did miss having the cows around, they are very intelligent animals. I used to give them treats, like during the summer the apple trees often produced an excess of apples, so we used to give them to the cows- they also chowed down tree branch clippings to which they seemed to enjoy a lot. Me and my mum planted loads of trees and hedges (over 10, 000 over many years) around the boarders of the feilds to act as wind breaks and so the cows wern't so exposed to the elements, and also to incourage wildlife.
Cows like affection like any other animal, they are very easy to tame (they are naturally very inquisitive animals and so its not long before they start following you around) and once you do, they love having their foreheads scratched (their coats are very oily though so you have to wash your hands afterwards) :bluush: !
Some people may think "how can you let yourself get emotionally attached to animal or show affection to it knowing that it will be killed at some point?" Well...I guess i didn't mind because i knew that the animals had a fair shot at life and that they were happy, and that i think you don't have to get emotionally attached to an animal to show affection to it. The farmer/animal relationship can be a tricky one, some people just completely emotionally-detach themselves from their animals but then again i think this is what can lead to bad farming practices like battery farming, but i think if you don't feel guilty about what you are doing to your animals but you still care about their welfare and needs, then that is a good start.



THAT IS RIGHT ON THE MONEY!
Even when a supermarket employee (your brother) informs them they still don`t want to hear it or change their ways. Why? Because it is about costs. People want to save a few dollars and they don`t mind doing it at the cost of suffering.
I have a few things to say about Free Range in the future but for now,
Good on your brother for informing customers.

Many people shop at Tesco's because of its cheap prices, but i still believe that the vast majority of us are still rich enough to afford not to eat battery/factory farmed animal products- there was actually a point in my life when i really was to poor to buy free range/organic food products as i was living off 10's a week and every penny really matterd, but that time in my life has long passed and i have been able to afford good farmed foods for quite a few years now.
I think it would be really good if there was a super market that promoted affordable free range and organic food products, both animal products and vegetarian/plant products. It would be good for the farmers trying to uphold good farming practices and for the people that consume those sorts of products- thankyou for your praise of my brothers efforts/work :) .