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Mandylion
14-04-04, 07:08
I saw a report on the nightly news yesterday (in Japan) on a surgery in Korea that is becoming quite popular.

In order to speak English well, cosmetic surgeons claim slicing a bit of that vertical membrane that holds your tongue to the bottom of your mouth helps kids pronounce sounds in English that require a lot of upward movement (like l,r etc). One of the clinics in the bit said they do about four kids a month on an out-patient system.

The bit was run parallel with a report on the increase in English-based educational toys sales in Japan and the future of English in this country. The report also showcased some pre-school or elementary Korean kids who, quite frankly, had better pronounciation than I often do (it was not clear to me if those kids had had their tongues fixed).

The report was a bit sensational - look at what those crazy Koreans are doing to their kids - and fits right in with the image that Koreans like plastic surgery. But it is disturbing for other reasons.

To me, part of the fun of English is the accents. It is fun to listen to new sounds and dialects of your own language IMHO. By trying to clean up the sounds coming from English and a second language countries, they are trying to turn international English into accent neutral American (I know American has more than one accent, but the ESL world simply loves the accent lacking American). God, how dull that would be (he says being an American himself...)!

And if the thought of having that membrane under your tongue sliced doesn't give you the willies, I don't know what will...

jeisan
14-04-04, 07:23
seems rather odd to do something like that, i mean americans dont get their tongues cut at birth to speak their own language.
also ive noticed a number of new shows here with hosts who have accents usually from other english speaking countries. seems maybe america is getting bored of the TV standard for bland accents.

dreamer
14-04-04, 15:52
I'd hate to do this especially to little children
Being a non-english-speaker myself i don't know what i'd have done to my parents if they had my tongue membrane sliced...
Anyway as long as you can make other people understand you i think it's ok...

Ulubatli
14-04-04, 17:22
Poor children...

This is another side effect of globalisation, shame on those parents... I mean people should not be imitaters. Everybody is best as what it is.

kirei_na_me
14-04-04, 17:44
I don't think any elective surgery like that should be done on a child. Not until they're old enough and capable of weighing the pros and cons themselves, should they be able to have something like that done.

Frank D. White
14-04-04, 22:45
young people can talk that have studs in their tounge &
rings in their lips?? I know I can't speak as clear when I have false teeth in as without them!

Frank

:shock:

playaa
14-04-04, 22:59
Definately going to have to disagree with this one. But this just leads me to wonder whats next? Who knows, lets just hope I wont be a testee lol :)

dreamer
15-04-04, 18:10
Hum...if it continues like this ..oh my god...maybe the eyes??

EDIT:
I dunno if that's true but look at this and especially the eyes (sorry it's in french)
http://members.at.infoseek.co.jp/jpoptrash/seikei/chirurgie.htm

kirei_na_me
15-04-04, 18:41
Yikes. That second 'apres'(after) photo of Ayu is scary. At least, to me.

dreamer
15-04-04, 23:11
Lol after that people will start disregarding J-idols ^^

playaa
16-04-04, 01:38
Wow, the befores will make u run! :P

kirei_na_me
16-04-04, 01:40
I think the befores and the afters are not that great... :o Well, Hikaru and Kaori made a change for the better, I believe. The rest...well...I don't know. That Ayu picture is still freaking me out!

playaa
16-04-04, 01:43
Yeah the ones listed, are definately not the hottest J-Girls I have ever seen. thats for sure! :)

Maciamo
16-04-04, 04:42
Hum...if it continues like this ..oh my god...maybe the eyes??

EDIT:
I dunno if that's true but look at this and especially the eyes (sorry it's in french)
http://members.at.infoseek.co.jp/jpoptrash/seikei/chirurgie.htm

That's quite impressive. Frankly look at Mai Kuraki, Hikaru Utada, Takako, Nanako and Mikitty... They were all pretty ugly (sorry for the pun) before, and so beautiful after. I really understand that surgery is popular, and frankly I'd rather live in a world where everybody is "remade" and beautiful. It may even reduce animosities between people.

playaa
16-04-04, 05:08
True Maciamo, but living in a world where everyone is "Fake" would not be appealing to me at all.

Maciamo
16-04-04, 05:13
True Maciamo, but living in a world where everyone is "Fake" would not be appealing to me at all.

Well, the inside stays "true", so that you don't have to care about physical appearance so much and can concentrate on what people really are (personality, emotions, interests, intelligence...). That is almost an ideal world...

playaa
16-04-04, 05:24
Yes, inside is what counts.. Though the world these days are moving more and more towards what you speak of, I wouldnt doubt if it happens.

thomas
16-04-04, 05:36
True Maciamo, but living in a world where everyone is "Fake" would not be appealing to me at all.

I have to agree to that. I find the procedures people undergo just to adapt to beauty ideals imposed by I don't know whom quite shocking. Must be sheer horror to know you're kissing or touching silicon or revamped body parts, ugh.

:wave:

Maciamo
16-04-04, 07:38
Must be sheer horror to know you're kissing or touching silicon or revamped body parts, ugh.


I am not even talking about lovers, but the people you see in the street, work with, etc. As for silicon, might be true for breats or nose, but eye surgery for Asians is just sticking some eyelid skins together to "open the eye". I think that is the most common surgery in East-Asia.

Some remake the cheeks (look at Mai Kuraki), but it's mostly removing some fat or muscles. No addition, no silicon. The rest stays original.

dreamer
16-04-04, 10:29
I have to agree to that. I find the procedures people undergo just to adapt to beauty ideals imposed by I don't know whom quite shocking. Must be sheer horror to know you're kissing or touching silicon or revamped body parts, ugh.

:wave:
Yuck thomas don't say it like that ! :(
Anyway maciamo you know that surgery is expensive so...wouldn't it be better if people spent money on helping the poor rather than on their physical appearence? :?

Maciamo
16-04-04, 11:01
Anyway maciamo you know that surgery is expensive so...wouldn't it be better if people spent money on helping the poor rather than on their physical appearence? :?

:D You should say, wouldn't it be better if Japanese girl spent money on surgery rather than Louis Vuitton, Chanel and Prada bags, Gucci and Dior clothes and Bulgari watches. Shouldn't stop paying 20.000yen in cosmetics every month, avoid paying 10.000 every time they go and change their hairstyles at the hairdresser, because anyway that is only to look more beautiful to

You could also argue that the same J-girls should think before buying 500 hours lessons with Nova, then stop after 5 times because they lost their motivation (and cannot get refund anyway), or just stop going out to the cinema because it's 1800yen every time, stop eating out everyday and limit themselves to nightclubs once a year ?

If you think so, then you don't understand the basic principle of Japanese ultra-consumerist and materialistic society.

One more thing, Japanese homeless don't beg - contrarily to other countries.
The average Japanese believe that money is the best proof of success or happiness. Just watch Japanese TV ; they have to put a price to everything. They seem more happy or impressed to know that someone can wear for 3 million yen in clothes and jewelry, or learning that a bowl of ramen can cost 5000yen (instead of 600 yen) in this or that restaurant seem to make them more want to eat it than the look or smell of the ramen itself. In Japan, you measure things with money. I believe it's the same in South Korea (and China).

No wonder that "buying beauty" (or sex, for that matter) is so popular and "normal" there. Maybe East-Asian to whom I asked about the morality of cosmetic surgery or pornography (2 different issues, but related, as it's money in exchange of physical beauty, and ultimately sex), most seemed to find it perfectly normal, or at least I am still to meet a person who would be genuinely disgusted like some Westerners are.

Personally, I understand the surgery thing, though a bit uncomfortable at the idea of doing it myslef.

As for the tongue surgery, if it works and they really think it necessary, why not. The most important is how they feel about it. The only "wrong" thing is to impose it on children who cannot yet have a fair judgement. But also because at that age (normally starting to learn the language before 10, but the earlier the better), they could reach a native speaker pronunciation just with practice.

dreamer
16-04-04, 15:27
:D You should say, wouldn't it be better if Japanese girl spent money on surgery rather than Louis Vuitton, Chanel and Prada bags, Gucci and Dior clothes and Bulgari watches. Shouldn't stop paying 20.000yen in cosmetics every month, avoid paying 10.000 every time they go and change their hairstyles at the hairdresser, because anyway that is only to look more beautiful to

You could also argue that the same J-girls should think before buying 500 hours lessons with Nova, then stop after 5 times because they lost their motivation (and cannot get refund anyway), or just stop going out to the cinema because it's 1800yen every time, stop eating out everyday and limit themselves to nightclubs once a year ?
Oh my god ... :shock:
Is this actually true?? I must say i didn't have a clue about the width of this phenomenon...
However you're true saying that I don't understand the basic principles of the japanese society.
As you already know i have been there only once and for a really short period of time, however It seems the society is like lot of asian ones: people only respect those who have lot of money.
You say that lot of japanese believe that money is the best proof of success and it's kind of true everywhere. For exemple when my aunt invites me for a lunch she always cooks dishes saying it was made with the highest priced ingredients. However with the facts you quoted Japan doesn't seem a really good place to live. It seems totally artificial and everyone only show their fake self.
You also say that things mesured with money is common even in China, but i have already been there and it doesn't seem as obvious as it is in Japan(I don't know about Korea though) The adds there were showing certain products being cheap and good.
For myself, (maybe it's because i've grown up in France) I really think that surgery just make people artificial and thinking of all those fake individual really makes me feel bad for them.
Maybe you're right and I should go there to see(a friend of mine went to Japan and when he came back he wanted to do some nasal surgery) but still, I'm wondering why people should hide themselves, using surgery.



One more thing, Japanese homeless don't beg - contrarily to other countries.

I have one question about this: how do these people manage to survive?
Are they just here waiting for death or a miracle?

Anyway about the children surgery I believe it's just a need created by some people to make money on the population's credulity. If people can acquire the right accent by practicing, I don't think any surgery is needed.

Mayura
17-04-04, 11:54
hmm... it sounds so mean... just to make money, they do such things... o.O

jeisan
23-04-04, 07:17
Hum...if it continues like this ..oh my god...maybe the eyes??

EDIT:
I dunno if that's true but look at this and especially the eyes (sorry it's in french)
http://members.at.infoseek.co.jp/jp...i/chirurgie.htm

a little late, but in my opinion ayu and kyoko looked much better before surgery.

dreamer
23-04-04, 09:08
Yeah but I must admit that some looks far better after the surgery Oo
lol I think it depends on thow much the person abuse (ie mickael jackson )

kirei_na_me
23-04-04, 13:46
a little late, but in my opinion ayu and kyoko looked much better before surgery.

I thought so too. Ayu is pretty scary looking in that recent picture...

jeisan
23-04-04, 13:57
yeah she looks like an alien lol

dreamer
23-04-04, 14:27
Well...i'm wondering how she'll look like when she'll be older ^^