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Maciamo
27-04-04, 03:48
If you have been following the news recently, you'll know that Cyprus, which is one of the 10 states joining the EU on 1 May this year, has had a referendum about the reunification of the Greek South with the Turkish North. If Cypriots couldn't find a solution and rejected the UN's plan, then only Greek Cyprus (2/3 of the island) would be able to join the EU. 75% of the Greek Cypriots voted against reunification, while 66% of Turkish Cypriots voted in favour.

The problem with this situation is that Greek Cypriots are seen as blocking their Turkish compatriots (as only Turkey recognise the independence of the Northern state) from receiveing financial benefits and entering the free trade zone of the EU, eventhough Turkish Cypriots wanted to. In other words, the Greek part is being selfish and want to keep the development aid to themselves, which is why they are not doing any effort to achieve reunification.

In today's news, they say that EU officials have decided to release 260m Euro for Turkish Cyprus anyway and there are talks of freezing Greek Cyprus's membership to the EU until they have found a solution.

This case is very interesting as Northern Cyprus officially cannot join the EU without fusing its government with the Southern part, but the EU would not recognise it as an independent state anyway.


Mr Verheugen said the EU would work with the Turkish Cypriot authorities to boost the economy but this did not mean that the north would be recognised as a separate state.

"I strongly reject the idea that co-operation is recognition in the sense of international law," he said.

Source : BBC News : EU pledges aid for Turkish Cyprus (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3660171.stm)

What I don't understand is what will be the international status of Turkish Cypriots. As the EU (and all the world except Turkey) consider Cyprus as a signle country, and since there are no borders between EU countries and all people are free to travel, live and work anywhere in the EU without visa or passport (since 1992), Cyprus's EU membership means that there couldn't possibly be a border between North and South, and that Northern Cypriots can de facto travel, live and work without visa or passport within the EU, as it is not recognised as another country by the EU. This is very confusing. Either they are "in" and there is no border (even with a separate government), or they are "out" and should be recognised as a separate state.

Your opinion ?

bossel
27-04-04, 04:13
Good points, Maciamo!
The EU has put itself into an awkward position. Now these dumb EU politicians who have let themselves be fooled by the Greek Cypriot gouvernment need to find a way out. I'm waiting for the first case of a Turk Cypriot suing for equal rights.

Maciamo
27-04-04, 09:52
Yeah, it's really time that things become clearer inside the EU. They are having a serious problem with harmonisation.

Status

Turkish Cyprus is not a separate country, but not in the EU, while Greek Cyprus is. So what passport does a Turkish Cypriot get ? EU one (so they are in the EU after all) or Turkish Cypriot one which is only recognised by Turkey and does not allow them to travel anywhere but to Turkey. In the latter case, that would be quite terrible.

Visas

Nothing to do with Cyprus, but how comes the visas are the same in the Schengen areas, which includes Norway and Iceland, which are not part of the EU, and does not include the UK or Ireland which are part of the EU.

Visas agreeement remain the power of national government even with the Schengen EU Visas. If Japanese go to Schengen Europe on holiday, they will get a 3 month visa anywhere, except if they enter in Germany or Austria where they get 6 months, but which allow them to stay 6 months in other Schengen countries too !

If Dutch, Belgian, Danish, Italian or Spanish person wants to go to Japan on a working holiday visa, they can't because Japan only has agreements with Germany, France and the UK in Europe. But if a Japanese wants to go to the Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Italy or Spain on working holiday visa, they just apply for a French or German visa, then can stay for 1 year anywhere in the Schengen area (including Norway and Iceland !). There is a real need of harmonisation here.

Euro

Out of 20 countries, 11 use the Euro. 3 don't want to join, 8 can't join.

San Marino, the Vatican, Monaco and Andorra and not in the EU, but use the Euro, and so do a few ex-Yugoslavian and Caucasian countries. Malta cannot use the euro, but Monaco, San Marino and the Vatican, not only use it but have the right to print their own coins !

Gibraltar, Jersey, Guernesey and the Isle of Man are part of the UK, but not part of the EU (and passport are required for EU citizens to go there). New Caledonia, the Reunion Island, French Polynesia, French Guyana, Guadeloupe and Martinique are part of France, also part of the EU, and use (only) the Euro, though they are not the slightest in Europe. They must look at the map at the back of the banknotes and wonder "but where are we ?", eventhough the map includes North Africa, and parts of the Middle-East and Russia, which are not and will probably never be in the EU.


EU Constitution

The UK could be left out if a referendum is held as planned. So the UK would be in the EU but not in the euro zone, Schengen area and wouldn't adopt the EU constitution. Fringe-member ?

Hachiko
28-04-04, 18:41
Slam the Greeks. If the Turkish north wants reunification, so be it. Don't let the south triumph. If Cyprus stays at an impasse, its future will be uncertain for the next century or so, because of this mess.

playaa
28-04-04, 18:45
Greeks, being selfish I say let the noth join and begin to recognize the greeks as seperate and cut them off. Maybe they will change their minds?

aaltunn
21-05-04, 00:28
Greeks, being selfish I say let the noth join and begin to recognize the greeks as seperate and cut them off. Maybe they will change their minds?

hi everybody... we turkish people demand peace .greek people also demands peace +victory of the hellenism. :? average greek used to hate any turkic item.once they banned the name of the turkish coffee... :relief:
the power of church abusing the fear of turkish threat,leads the society.

-peace at home peace at world M.Kemal Atatürk :cool:

EU used to be the judge and the member of all discussions over the globe.
they enjoy giving advices everyone/everywhere abusing their location...
as a judge EU enpowers the main capital of the member EU...
for example:once they made an attempt on reducing the production of nut at black sea coasts...meanwhile italy/spain enlarged the area of nut production... hmmm :-) EU also blocked turkish seed production by decreasing the limitations of alfotoxin
such words ...EU/Globalisation/new millenium seems to be too much delicate and hollow...moreover so tricky and false...
they just started a new style of colonisation of our blue globe, dont they?

extra
Germany has great amounts of gold... experts say that its impossible to produce that much ... how they grab it???
so to tolerate the value of their ready gold...they enpower the non-honest environmental activists to halt the gold productions attempts all over the world.... read bergama dosyası... :(

bossel
21-05-04, 02:36
EU also blocked turkish seed production by decreasing the limitations of alfotoxin
such words ...EU/Globalisation/new millenium seems to be too much delicate and hollow...moreover so tricky and false...
they just started a new style of colonisation of our blue globe, dont they?

extra
Germany has great amounts of gold... experts say that its impossible to produce that much ... how they grab it???
so to tolerate the value of their ready gold...they enpower the non-honest environmental activists to halt the gold productions attempts all over the world.... read bergama dosyası... :(
Aflatoxin (I suppose, that's what you meant) is produced by a fungus that grows on spoiled crops & is carcinogenic. Hence I'd say, there is not much of a mistreatment here (unless of course the limit values for Turkish crops would be lower than for EU crops, which I don't think). The EU even gave advice how to improve the necessary controls:
http://europa.eu.int/comm/food/fs/inspections/fnaoi/reports/contaminants/turkey/fnaoi_rep_turk_1256-2000_en.pdf

I have to agree, though, that the EU is too protectionist regarding agriculture, but that is a general feature of the EU not only in regard to Turkey.

I suppose, you talk about the book „Alman Vakifleri ve Bergama Dosyasi“ (in German „Die deutschen Stiftungen und das Bergama-Dossier“) regarding the gold. Well, a nice conspiracy theory, very funny, but not more than that. The Germans trying to frustrate the mining of gold at one particular site (Ovacik) in Turkey. Yeah, right! As if that mining would have changed the gold price considerably.

aaltunn
21-05-04, 05:35
I have to agree, though, that the EU is too protectionist regarding agriculture, but that is a general feature of the EU not only in regard to Turkey.

I suppose, you talk about the book „Alman Vakifleri ve Bergama Dosyasi“ (in German „Die deutschen Stiftungen und das Bergama-Dossier“) regarding the gold. Well, a nice conspiracy theory, very funny, but not more than that. The Germans trying to frustrate the mining of gold at one particular site (Ovacik) in Turkey. Yeah, right! As if that mining would have changed the gold price considerably.[/QUOTE]
hi bossel ! first of all thanks for the reply/explanations... :wave:
sorry about pron...
well i still believe uncomfortable about EU ... cheating even europe/european values... the examples that i given seems to spoil the main idea...we should carefully consider the position of eu's judging/advicing position
well is it just a funny conspiracy theory ?? so 100% false and funny?you may be right... -what is the truth-ı might put my foot inside my mouth maybe..srry :?
dont be misunderstand by the word german(s) meaning the authority of germany...not much at all

n.cyprus suffered so much ... at least people all over the world such discuss the limitations/stress on n.cypriots... :okashii:

as i sad peace at home peace at world ...mka :bravo:

bossel
22-05-04, 04:41
well i still believe uncomfortable about EU ... cheating even europe/european values... the examples that i given seems to spoil the main idea...

n.cyprus suffered so much ... at least people all over the world such discuss the limitations/stress on n.cypriots... :okashii:
Feeling uncomfortable about the EU is no problem, many people inside the EU do as well.
The main idea is a unified, democratic Europe, I think. That is not necessarily spoiled by the bad stuff that happens. The problems will be worked out democratically (well, probably).

The nice thing about functioning democracies is that the malfunctions sooner or later become open & some people might face their responsibility.

Re North Cyprus, that is a bad situation, a stupid situation which would not have been necessary. I wonder how this will work out.
My hope is that the European Court of Justice will eventually decide that since the partition of Cyprus is not internationally recognised, N Cyprus is part of the EU, with all the rights & duties involved.

JazzJR
31-05-04, 19:12
Cypriots don't care for a solution any more. They don't believe that turks and greeks belong together or that they can ever live with each other. that's what keeps this thing from working out: they left this thing out to dry for way too long!

My generation, as a greek cypriot (and in your eyes some sort of criminal? i hope not), has never had any contact with the turkish cypriots (I've never met one or talked to one in my life! I don't know a word of turkish, and neither do my parents. I know nothing about their religion either (and cyprus is a very small place, don't try to compare it to the multicultural nature of a big country!)).
All i know about them is what i've read in 'history' books (which are force-fed to any kid from the day they are born), which identify them to attila the hun of all people! No, I'm very serious.
The media don't miss a chance to talk about eg. the turkish invasion of '74 or the "grey wolves" unit the turks supposedly set up to terrorize the greeks.
Things like these may sound silly to someone who hasn't lived them first-hand, but when you hear them every day for 18 years you finally come to believe them (even when all reason screams against it).
I'm talking from personal experience as a greek cypriot, but from what i gather it's no different for turkish cypriots (please, correct me if i'm wrong!).

The feelings of the average cypriot about his compatriots on the other side are usually BLANK. Most people seem to have completely blocked out the existance of the other side. They have all been programmed to believe that the other side is just "evil enemies who might kill you if you do the wrong thing" and leave it at that. "You have personal problems to attend to. Leave this thing to us and we know what we're doing."
It's true to say that most feel the other half of the island is as far away as the other side of the moon.
If you think about it, cypriots are perfect SHEEP. Politicians do everything they want with them thanks to propaganda and, i'm afraid to say, sheer ignorance/indifference.

As for the proposed plan, admittedly, it was disappointing. Not because it would never work (chances are it would if it was ever set in motion), but because it provided no incentive for the greek cypriots. I'm afraid that the only way to make this thing work would be to think of it as a TRADE. Greek cypriots could see no direct benefits coming from this trade, and since our genius politicians (and church) played very well on the elements of fear (10 ads every 20 mins of tv saying "vote no!" is just the start of it) and ignorance, the plan was turned down. If, for example, the greeks were told the same thing as the turks were - that there's no EU unless they clean up the mess in their back yard -.. well, that could have made a world of difference, wouldn't it?

Basically, what i'm saying here is: there is nothing keeping the two sides from living together except the pigheadedness of politicians who are still surviving from the stone age (90% of the politicians of both sides have been around from long before 1974!!). If cypriots were given some motivation to care, swept those politicians away and replaced them with open-minded people, the border was completely taken apart and greeks and turks were given a chance to know each other.. then i see no reason why this wouldn't work out fine...


Jeez, i don't even know why i'm typing this WHOLE thing. I'll probably get flamed for it or something. Guess i needed to voice my own thoughts somehow and say what others who have realized this dare not speak.
Blaming the politicians might sound like a cheap excuse that a stupid greek cypriot guy is making up to take some of the blame off the shoulders of his own people, but i assure you it's not like that. This is the sad truth, for which i'm very truly EMBARRASSED about. What greek cypriots - nay, all cypriots are guilty of is their ignorance and their passivity about a grave issue that concerns them all.
I think it's time i shut up now.

To any turkish cypriots who might be reading this: I'm really very sorry. :sorry: Peace at home and peace at the world.

gokce
09-06-04, 00:22
This situation is awkward not because of the end result that now EU has a border with an invisible but real country, however it is awkward because this whole thing is wrong from the start.

True intention of the Annan plan was obvious from the draft, which was to assimilate Turkish population in the island, and to weaken Turkiye in the Mediterranean.

The final additions to the plan about that Turkish navy cannot move close to the island more than some funny number of miles, which significantly eliminates the ability to move in Mediterranean is just thought-provoking and unacceptable.

Also displacing 60,000 Turks and not including any single line regarding the guarantee of the future of these displaced Turks is really a bold move. The estimated cost of accommodating 60,000 Turks, who would be leaving their lands to be given to the south by this plan is about 4 billion dollars. And interestingly enough it is forgotten to be specified who will have to pay for the accommodation of these 60,000 people in those 9,000 pages of so-called peace plan.

Having come up with one of the most ridiculous plans in the world history, EU can still be surprised by the "No" from the south.

I have to note that as a Turkish I really DON'T want to enter EU. However I must say trying to get North Cyprus in EU before Turkiye, while Greece is already in is simply UNJUST! Is that too hard to see?

There is a clear and real border between the north and the south even though it is not recognized. And the fact for years is that the south is protected and supported by Greece and many other European countries, while the north is protected and supported by Turkiye. Given this fact if EU was to favour balance, then why did they attempt to get the whole island in EU while leaving Turkiye out? As it lies in the question, the answer is simple enough to be seen by an 8 year old : "there is no balance aimed".

By the way, one of the most unacceptable parts of this plan was to expect the both sides, the north and the south to vote for a constitution that neither of these parties contributed. This proposed packet included some collection of laws of the new composite state that made up ~7000 pages, which was written in English, and not translated to Turkish or Greek so that the "true people" who would vote could not understand it.

As there wasn't enough time to finalize the plan, new editions continued to arrive to both parties almost each day, complicating the tasks for both sides even further. EU has been in a weird hurry to fasten procedures, causing question marks in the heads, forcing people to vote for something that they haven't read - something that was not even translated to their own language - and that they haven't understood.

Now do you think the current situation caused by the "No" is more awkward than what EU has been doing for months? Because to me they have been acting irrational, acting as they wish and causing all this mess behind and therefore this whole process was wrong from the start.

Now Europe insisting on not to recognize North Cyprus is even more funnier, but I'm not surprised even a bit.. because EU is so predictable and they always make me laugh!

Yes peace should be maintained between two sides, but this is certainly NOT the way to do it. This plan was not drafted for peace but it was drafted for control in the Mediterrenean. Simple as that.

Peace at home, peace in the world.

JazzJR, unfortunately it is people like ANNAN who see the right in themselves to decide how others should live. I wish North said "No" also, to mean that Annan should pack his suitcase and leave. But you should have seen how media here marketed that plan. But I admit that I'm still surprised to see people being that naive.

Cyprusm
02-04-05, 16:13
You know what. what can I say about you all....
You say we cheated EU, you say we have ghettoed the Turkish Cypriots, you say we are Racist etc.

1. No one cheated the EU. The negotiations regarding the accession of Cyprus were independent of the Cyprus problem. All these years, the turkish Cypriots and the Turks that resided to the north of the island after the TURKISH INVASION of 1974 that took 36% of the island (the so called NOrth) didnt want anything to hear about a solution. Now, in order to gain the benefits of the EU they remembered a solution, but only to their standard, which is recognition of the illegal "North Cyprus" state.

I am a refugee of the 1974 invasion. I have lost everything, house, property, everything. I live now on rent, while a Turkish settler lives in my house, enjoying all the benefits of the house that I have built.
Now with the "ANNAN PLAN" I was supposed to be compensated for my house by giving me 15 year bonds, with property prices of 1974!!!!! Even that, I wouldnt get any money until after 15 years, when the bond expired.

That is, 30 years since the Turkish invasion, + 15 years of the Bond, = 45 years!!!!!

Anyone else wants to trade his house with that settlement?? Surely, you must be joking.

As for the Turkish Cypriots, well, I think we gave them full EU benefits. ALL Turkish Cypriots now have Cyprus passports, meaning that they are EU citizens, enjoying all the benefits that any EU citizen would have. Except, they dont have to pay taxes, or anything, unlike other EU citizens, including Greek Cypriots. Simply because, the illegal "North Cyprus" is a ghost country, with no taxes, nothing.

Result, is, they sell our (the Greek Cypriots) houses, that were given to them for free by the illegal Turkish Cypriot goverment, and they buy NICE EXPENSIVE DUTY FREE CARS.

So conclusion about Turksih Cypriots:

1. They enjoy full EU membership, since they have Cypriot passports.
2. They dont have to pay any taxes.
3. They live illegally in Greek Cypriot houses
4. They sell the Greek Cypriot houses.
IF a good solution comes that will allow me to live again after 30 years to my house in Kyrenia, I will vote for YES for a solution.

ANy other solution is a still a NO for me.!!

bossel
03-04-05, 03:04
Ah, what a well-informed, un-biased & objective post. How refreshing! Welcome to the forum!


1. No one cheated the EU. The negotiations regarding the accession of Cyprus were independent of the Cyprus problem.
Not really. The negotiations were held under the impression that Papadopoulos would support a re-unification. Until 2003 he faked this support.

I found a quite good analysis (http://www.ceps.be/Article.php?article_id=325&) of the situation. Quote:

"The Greek Cypriot side has walked into a political-constitutional trap of its own making. The EU cannot now refuse recognise both the secession of Northern Cyprus from the Republic of Cyprus and at the same time its place as part of the Republic of Cyprus and the EU. The return of Northern Cyprus to a properly organised placed in the workings of the federation would now be taking place had it not been denied by the Greek Cypriots."


I am a refugee of the 1974 invasion. I have lost everything, house, property, everything. I live now on rent, while a Turkish settler lives in my house, enjoying all the benefits of the house that I have built.
That is sad for you, but if enough people had voted "yes" you might have gotten more back than you think (see below). As the situation is now, you probably won't live to see a re-unification.


Now with the "ANNAN PLAN" I was supposed to be compensated for my house by giving me 15 year bonds, with property prices of 1974!!!!! Even that, I wouldnt get any money until after 15 years, when the bond expired.
Really? What I have found (http://www.cyprus-un-plan.org/UNFactSheetPropertyAnnanPlan.pdf) sounds a bit different:
"Everyone who lost property located in the other constituent state can get back up to 1/3rd of their property (in value and area) and be paid compensation for the rest in guaranteed bonds and appreciation certificates. These are backed up by real property assets and are likely to appreciate considerably over time.

Four variations to the 1/3rd Rule
1. The small landowner privilege: If you owned only 1 house or apartment on a small plot of land, you are entitled to get it back along with up to 1 donum of your surrounding land, provided you owned the property when the house was built or lived in it for more than 10 years. Thus, you may get back all your property, not just 1/3rd.[...]"

Cyprusm
03-04-05, 19:07
Ah, what a well-informed, un-biased & objective post. How refreshing! Welcome to the forum!


Not really. The negotiations were held under the impression that Papadopoulos would support a re-unification. Until 2003 he faked this support.

I found a quite good analysis (http://www.ceps.be/Article.php?article_id=325&) of the situation. Quote:

"The Greek Cypriot side has walked into a political-constitutional trap of its own making. The EU cannot now refuse recognise both the secession of Northern Cyprus from the Republic of Cyprus and at the same time its place as part of the Republic of Cyprus and the EU. The return of Northern Cyprus to a properly organised placed in the workings of the federation would now be taking place had it not been denied by the Greek Cypriots."


That is sad for you, but if enough people had voted "yes" you might have gotten more back than you think (see below). As the situation is now, you probably won't live to see a re-unification.


Really? What I have found (http://www.cyprus-un-plan.org/UNFactSheetPropertyAnnanPlan.pdf) sounds a bit different:
"Everyone who lost property located in the other constituent state can get back up to 1/3rd of their property (in value and area) and be paid compensation for the rest in guaranteed bonds and appreciation certificates. These are backed up by real property assets and are likely to appreciate considerably over time.

Four variations to the 1/3rd Rule
1. The small landowner privilege: If you owned only 1 house or apartment on a small plot of land, you are entitled to get it back along with up to 1 donum of your surrounding land, provided you owned the property when the house was built or lived in it for more than 10 years. Thus, you may get back all your property, not just 1/3rd.[...]"
Save the sarcasm for someone else, bossel.

I have studies the Annan plan from begining to the end.
What is said is the following:
1. Yes some areas were going to be returned. This included dome small villages, nothing great. And regarding the illegal turkish setlers, who were going to give up on these houses, there were going to be moved to other premises, that we(the greek cypriots) were going to built for them.

2. NO more Republic of Cyprus. What our heros fought for in 1955-1959 struggle against the British, was going to be wasted, and their memory forgotten.

3. The Kyrenia area that I was born, was not going to be returned, and yes, I was going to get 1/3 of the value of my house back, in bonds, expiring in 15 years, with 1974 prices!!!! Great deal. Anyone else wants to trade his house for 15 year bonds with value of 1974?


4. Most of the Turkish origin settlers that came after the tuskish invasion were going to stay in the island. This is highly unacceptable for me.

So, these 4 reasons made me say the big NO. If the forthcoming peace negotiation wont adress these issues, it will still be a NO for me.

A good solution for me will be:

1. A full compansation is 2005 prices for the property that wont be returned.
2. Send as many illegal turkish settlers back to Turkey - those that came after 1974 and didnt get married with a turkish Cypriot or a greek Cypriot.


These 2 reasons must be addressed in order for the new peace negotiation to succeed.
If not, they will receive a big NO again for us Greek Cypriots. I am sorry to be so direct, but, the horrible Turkish invasion in 1974 has done alot of harm to us, giving these 2 to us is a minimum for the damage that we have suffered.

Cyprusm
03-04-05, 20:51
Ah, what a well-informed, un-biased & objective post. How refreshing! Welcome to the forum!


Not really. The negotiations were held under the impression that Papadopoulos would support a re-unification. Until 2003 he faked this support.

I found a quite good analysis (http://www.ceps.be/Article.php?article_id=325&) of the situation. Quote:"

This is a good analysis of the situation???????????
Written by a Turk, for turkish consumption.

You know, you guys (the Turks) will have to understand that unless you correct the problem you have created in Cyprus, you will NEVER see anyone recognise the so-called "Northern Cyprus". Without finding a settlement that will satisfy the Greek Cypriots, you are stranded in a Neverland. Cause that is what "Northern Cyprus" is. It is an illegal area, that is recognised as a state only by Turkey.

And trust me, by selling to ignorant people OUR land, and building houses on our land, you will make things even worse for you. Soon or later, these problems will come and hit you right on the face.

I, for instance, am prepared to file a lwa suit to anyone that lives illegaly on my property. I dont care if its british, french, japanese or otherwise.

I am going to sue them, and demand not only for my property to be returned to me, but also demand compensation for the period he was staying in it.
Check out some of these illegal sites:
http://www.zmdevelopments.com/pages/1/index.htm
and
http://www.idolhomes.com/

What suprises me is that alot of people in here dont really know what they are actually putting themselves into, when buying one of those properties:
That is a good prospect that they will be forced to move out of the house they bought, because their title is not legitimate.

Also, these people who sell our properties in the north of the island, are actually involved in a fraud.

Stealing other people's property and then passing it on to unaware tourists is not the answer, if you Turkish people REALLY want a solution.

The crime that you are undertaking in "Norhern Cyprus" is too big to be bypassed and neglected.

bossel
04-04-05, 01:47
1. Yes some areas were going to be returned. This included dome small villages, nothing great.
Whole villages? I understood you were talking of individual property. For the general provisions:
"More than half of the Greek Cypriots who were displaced in 1974 and their descendants will get their properties back and can live in them under Greek Cypriot administration, in areas handed over between 3½ and 42 months after entry into force of the settlement. For other people (both Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots) who lost property, the following applies.[which is the stuff from which I quoted above]"


And regarding the illegal turkish setlers, who were going to give up on these houses, there were going to be moved to other premises, that we(the greek cypriots) were going to built for them.
Where exactly is that in the Annan plan? Quote?


2. NO more Republic of Cyprus. What our heros fought for in 1955-1959 struggle against the British, was going to be wasted
Ah, I see. A nationalist. Mind you, times are changing. If Cyprus wants to be a valuable member of the EU, you should perhaps put this nationalist crap where it belongs: the dust bin of history.


3. The Kyrenia area that I was born, was not going to be returned, and yes, I was going to get 1/3 of the value of my house back, in bonds, expiring in 15 years, with 1974 prices!!!! Great deal. Anyone else wants to trade his house for 15 year bonds with value of 1974?
You say you have studied the plan, yet you continuously confuse these 2 provisions. If you owned only 1 house the rule I quoted in my previous post applies, whether Kyrenia or not.


4. Most of the Turkish origin settlers that came after the tuskish invasion were going to stay in the island. This is highly unacceptable for me.
Why? More nationalist crap? Throwing out people who lived there maybe 20 years or more is not really a sympathetic move. There is not enough room on Cyprus?


If not, they will receive a big NO again for us Greek Cypriots. I am sorry to be so direct, but, the horrible Turkish invasion in 1974 has done alot of harm to us, giving these 2 to us is a minimum for the damage that we have suffered.
The Turkish invasion was illegal, true (edit: actually, according to the treaty of 1960 Turkey was allowed to intervene in a constitutional crisis; a coup d'état can be considered as such). But what happened before was not really nice as well.


This is a good analysis of the situation???????????
Written by a Turk, for turkish consumption.
A Turk? Michael Emerson doesn't really sound Turkish. Blinded by nationalist narrow-mindedness? If you studied the Annan plan as thoroughly as this article, I can understand where your position comes from.


You know, you guys (the Turks)
I'm Turkish? That's new to me.


Without finding a settlement that will satisfy the Greek Cypriots, you are stranded in a Neverland.
Didn't you say before that Northern Cypriots have all the positives of EU-membership without the inconveniences (like tax)? You're a bit contradictory.


I am going to sue them, and demand not only for my property to be returned to me
The best way to achieve that would have been a successful re-unification under the Annan-plan.


Stealing other people's property and then passing it on to unaware tourists is not the answer, if you Turkish people REALLY want a solution.
Interesting how you sneakily equate some real estate companies (perhaps involved in illegal business) with "you Turkish people."

Cyprusm
04-04-05, 18:47
OK, lets stop the quotes, its getting really irritating.
I will adress your issues below:
1. Nationalism. Every citizen of any country is proud to be of that race. I, like most Greek Cypriots are proud to be of Greek origin. Same stands for Indians, for Turks, you, (if you are British) etc. If this is Nationalism, then, we all are in a sense.

The areas that I have stated above are included in the "dark" areas of the Plan.

Overall, I agree with you, it has some sense. BUT, the areas which have dark sides, must be addressed.

For example, it does not state who exactly will return to Turkey(with compensation) and who will not. For me, ALL Turkish who ame to Cyprus after the invasion, and are not related to a Turkish Cypriot in a first degree relation, MUST leave. Sorry, we have alot of illegal immigrants here, we dont need some more. You state:"

Why? More nationalist crap? Throwing out people who lived there maybe 20 years or more is not really a sympathetic move. There is not enough room on Cyprus?
So the attacker is the victim now? How about all of the Greek Cypriot refugees who still suffer after 30 years? They are not human beings right?

Then you state:
Didn't you say before that Northern Cypriots have all the positives of EU-membership without the inconveniences (like tax)? You're a bit contradictory.

Iam not at all, really. You know, my fellow co-Turkish cypriot citizens take FULL advantage of the current situation, and to be honest, i dont see why not. They are allowed to, since it is their right to do so. The current situation has given them this benefit. BUt this will be solved on the future talks that I think they will start pretty soon.

I dont want to continue arguing with you anymore, I actually thought that you were of turkish origin, since you are so PRO ANNAN plan fan.

What I must say though, as an ending, is that, we must sort things out in Cyprus. I am really glad that things are going to this direction, hostility and fanatism is the wrong way to do it.
You know, I never really had the chance to talking to alot of Turkish Cypriots before 2003, and I was suprised that they are actually more like us, Greek Cypriots. I know know quite a few people, and I am glad that things turned out this way.

Yes, alot of them have suffered in the past, and some deeds that we did were highly unacceptable. Dont forget that we had a civil war as well that time.

Times are changing, and changing fast, that is for sure. Turkey is modernising, moving forward in a really high speed rate. I must say, I am suprised that Turkey is moving forward in such a rate. I never thought this was possible. Their economic, political, and social environment is rapidly moving towards the European environment.

We (meaning thew Greek Cypriots) must decide that this is the time for a TOTAL and complete solution for this Cyprus problem. Afterall, Cyprus is such a small place, we are talking of a neighbourhood in New York, how difficult is to find a solution satisfactory for everyone?

Having said that, I will still say that this ANNAN 5 plan has had some issues which were critical for us, and must be adressed at the new negotiations, in order for us to be comfortable with a solution.
And the expiration of the Republic of Cyprus is not even a negotiation.

The Annan plan MUST take this into account.

So, summary of the issues that need to be addressed at the new plan:
1. New Federation MUST be under the umbrella of the recognised Republic of Cyprus.
2. Sufficient compensation to the Greek and Turkish cypriot refugees that wont be returned their properties.
3. As many as possible Turkish settlers must leave the island.


If the new plan manages to include these 3, it will be a 90% YES.

I really dont understand the persistance to end the republic of Cyprus status, since this is the recognised state, not the ""TRNC"".
The turkish cypiots can get autonomy under this name, like how they used to before the 1974 invasion.