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ashuri2
11-05-04, 05:51
:eek:i was horrified and disgusted when i heard about this on the news...you know its gotten out of hand when it goes this far! :(
what do you think about this...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3672901.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/3689167.stm

ippolito
11-05-04, 10:09
I do not like what they did and perhaps they are doing in Guantanamo....
I don't understsand why Bush and Blair gave to Iraqui pepole their excuses...
one italian (not a soldier) has been shut in the face after some day prisoner
and there are other 3 in their hand.....the tv did not show how they killed as those
are very discuntig images..probably the head was destroyed for a near shut
have some iraqui said officilally excuse us to our gov.mnt?
That person was young and not a soldier.....and now that family still cannot get
his body.....and the families of the other 3 are waiting now more for a month...
now we press silence ordered by the gov.mnt as not to disturbs local contacts
and here......Excuses for what? Those iraqui suffered....and our guys there are suffering too and perhaps they will be killed like chicken (i hope not)
hello
Ippolito

ashuri2
11-05-04, 22:52
and some americans wonder why other nations hate us...we're not as wonderful as we say we are, and this is proof! no longer can we claim to be better than everyone <not that we were better to begin with..>

ippolito
12-05-04, 09:36
I think that the problem is that us army etc..are the first in a convetional war in the sea and in the sky.....like they did in II world war.....
but they aren't so clever to fight guerriillla as happend in Vietnam and now in Iraq...
now among the common people is possible to have a terrorist.....that he will jump up with bombs killing all around us soldiers children women....
(they should not be called kamikaze as kamikaze were sacrifing their life against
war cruises or carriers not to kill people in the street).
The only way, in my poor opinion, is to mediate and have many meeetings with intemediates trying to escape of this dayly killing..
I think that when Onu will take the control...Iraq risks a civil war ...
Perhaps Kerry if will get the presidence could change the us world policy.....
but that day is far and personally I do not know Kerry....as I do not live in Us.
There the power is not only in the president hands...
hello all
Ippolito

playaa
12-05-04, 17:56
Leave it to a few idiots to add on to our already hated reputation

Golgo_13
12-05-04, 23:11
Our guys never tortured any of the prisoners. So we took off their clothes and put an underwear over their heads. Our president had to go apologize to the entire world.

Then those F'ing terrorists chop off a civilian's head off and hold it by the hair and run around like a kid on X'mas day with a new toy. And videotape it for the world to see.

What about the U.S. civilians who were burnt alive, mutilated, and hung from a bridge in Faluuja?

On talk radio last night, a black man called in and said these terrorists are the Ku Klux Klan of the middle-east.

Who's apologizing for these scumbag animals' behavior?

playaa
13-05-04, 01:26
And how about the US Miltary enlistee's that were drug through the streets?

senseiman
13-05-04, 06:24
From what I understand, the abuse at US detention centres is much more serious than just taking sexually depraved pictures of prisoners (which is bad enough). According to news reports today from US lawmakers, photos and video footage as yet unreleased to the public shows much worse acts, some involving prisoner's corpses and even more degrading acts of torture and sexual abuse. They made it clear that it was not just a case of taking disgusting pictures, there have been cases of murder and severe torture involved, which is every bit as depraved and disgusting as those terrorists who cut off the head of that poor 26 year old the other day.

As for the behaviour of Iraqi rebels, it has been condemned in just about every media forum in the world. For christ's sake, the US sent the Marines into Fallujah right after the brutal murder of those 4 mercenaries and killed over 600 people, mostly civilians, in revenge. Don't worry about that being 'apologized' for.

The difference between the case of the US soldiers and the militants who cut that guy's head off is that everyone expects terrorists to behave like depraved lunatics. When US soldiers, who allegedly went into Iraq to 'liberate' the country, start acting in the same manner its a bit more surprising, wouldn't you say?

bossel
14-05-04, 02:06
Our guys never tortured any of the prisoners. So we took off their clothes and put an underwear over their heads. Our president had to go apologize to the entire world.

Then those F'ing terrorists chop off a civilian's head off and hold it by the hair and run around like a kid on X'mas day with a new toy. And videotape it for the world to see.
Well, I suppose, Bush was pretty relieved that this happened, that distracts from the US practice of torturing detainees.

Golgo, I think, you make the same mistake as many other US Americans: not taking into account the Arab mentality. Being naked in front of strangers (esp. women) is very humiliating for them. The way this was done very much looks like it was planned by people who very well know how to break the will of Muslims.
Anyway, as Senseiman said, it was much worse than what has yet been published, & it was not unique to Abu Ghraib. A German news team (led by C.M. Fröhder) reported similar events from other places even before Abu Ghraib was first made public. The world didn't take much notice back then. The ICRC & AI also reported such cases for a long time.

Furthermore, common Iraqis are just as appalled by the beheading as most Westerners are. The perpetrators are terrorists, probably from Al Qaeda. Most Iraqi insurgents are not.

BTW, you mentioned these alleged US civilians in Falluja. What about all those Iraqi civilians killed by US troops (& not just by accident)? In most cases this is probably "collateral damage", but this also happens deliberately, even ambulances are targeted.

Golgo_13
14-05-04, 03:35
BTW, you mentioned these alleged US civilians in Falluja. What about all those Iraqi civilians killed by US troops (& not just by accident)?

Oh yes, now I remember. All the Iraqi civilians that U.S. troops set on fire and dragged their bodies and hung from bridges.

So it's humiliating for them? Too F'ing bad. At least they're still alive. We have to be sensitive to their emotions? They're in prisons for a reason !

Elizabeth
14-05-04, 04:57
Furthermore, common Iraqis are just as appalled by the beheading as most Westerners are. The perpetrators are terrorists, probably from Al Qaeda. Most Iraqi insurgents are not.
Terrorists in this case, Islamic governments with public squares for beatings, beheadings & executions in the next, the practice of 'honor killings' in the next, women's rights in the next. What the pictures show would be wrong anywhere -- no need to single out Arabs in particular for their sensitivity to violence and degradation, sexual or otherwise.

ashuri2
14-05-04, 05:51
Oh yes, now I remember. All the Iraqi civilians that U.S. troops set on fire and dragged their bodies and hung from bridges.

So it's humiliating for them? Too F'ing bad. At least they're still alive. We have to be sensitive to their emotions? They're in prisons for a reason !

golgo 13, i agree with senseiman. personally, i think you are saying these things out of either hate or simply misunderstanding. you are saying that because terriorists do bad, evil things, its okay for us to do these things to them. if that's the case, what makes us different from them if we use the same brutality? and how hypocritcal! most 1st world countreies make a point out of treating prisoners humanely, yet you advocate treating them horribly because 'they deserve it'! and they're obviously not still alive, if it has been shown already that some of the prisoners were murdered, and torture! my god, that goes against everything america supposedly stands for!!! of course he had to apologize, for it was wrong. what the some did to civlians and other people were wrong too, but the u.s. claims to be better and have a superior political and moral system concerning its 'enlightened', yet here is an instance were its obviously not true. it doesn't matter if you or anyone else think they deserve it, its not for you -or those soldeirs- to decide that they had the right to torture, sexually harass, or murder those people. doing things back to people and seeking revenge only excaberates the problems, not solves it! i hope i never hear you complaining about the isreali/palestinian conflict, because by your logic, you would make decisions that result in the same vicious cycle the people in that area are stuck in: violence begets violence and continual revenge and retribution. think about it.

Golgo_13
14-05-04, 06:04
Okay Miss Ashuri. Fine, you've convinced me. Stripping the prisoners of their clothes and putting an underwear over their head is the SAME thing as taking a civilian and slicing his head off and VIDEOTAPING the whole thing to show to the world. I understand now, with your help.

If there's a terrorist attack in your city, go ahead and blame the American government.

I won't say any more in this thread. It's pointless.

senseiman
14-05-04, 06:20
Okay Miss Ashuri. Fine, you've convinced me. Stripping the prisoners of their clothes and putting an underwear over their head is the SAME thing as taking a civilian and slicing his head off and VIDEOTAPING the whole thing to show to the world. I understand now, with your help.

If there's a terrorist attack in your city, go ahead and blame the American government.

I won't say any more in this thread. It's pointless.

Didn't you read the above posts? Its not just videotaping people naked that is going on, there have been cases of murder, homosexual rape and extreme beatings at US military prisons in Iraq. Please explain to us the difference between American soldiers beating unarmed Iraqi prisoners to death and Islamic terrorists murdering unarmed American prisoners. How is that any different? Is it really too much to ask of America's men in uniform that they NOT anally rape and murder defenseless people? I'm all ears, please try to explain your views in more detail, if you can.

Hachiko
14-05-04, 18:46
(AP) - More than 300 Iraqi detainees, some weeping and waving to friends, were released from the Abu Ghraib prison on Friday, a day after Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld made a surprise visit and insisted the Pentagon did not try to cover up abuses there. One bus carrying 40 prisoners left the jail and drove to an American military base in west Baghdad, where tribal leaders awaited some of them. One by one, prisoners got out, kneeled, and prayed beside the bus. Others left on the same bus, bound for other Baghdad neighborhoods.

Yahoo! NEws (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/fc/US/us_armed_forces/latest_developments/*http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040514/ap_on_re_us/prisoner_abuse_sivits_5)

bossel
15-05-04, 01:55
They're in prisons for a reason !
Now that is funny! Of course they are! Or as one US commander told the German reporter, when asked what the detainees had done wrong: "They were in the wrong place at the wrong time." (re-translated from German)
In US detention are lots of innocent civilians, not just insurgents & surely not just terrorists.

senseiman
15-05-04, 04:06
In an article by Robert Fisk, he cites coalition authorities as estimating that about 60% of Iraqis held in detention are completely innocent of any wrongdoing and were simply swept up along with real insurgents in large scale USmilitary operations. Wrong place and the wrong time.

ashuri2
15-05-04, 06:19
Okay Miss Ashuri. Fine, you've convinced me. Stripping the prisoners of their clothes and putting an underwear over their head is the SAME thing as taking a civilian and slicing his head off and VIDEOTAPING the whole thing to show to the world. I understand now, with your help.

If there's a terrorist attack in your city, go ahead and blame the American government.

I won't say any more in this thread. It's pointless.


no, what's pointless is your refusal to listen to the evidence, where its more than just underwear over someone's head, i wouldn't care then. but this is rape, murder, and torture. go ahead and stick you head in the sand if you wish and try to pretend that these things that are happening aren't just as bad. they waved around the head on t.v., but we did basically the same thing by taking pics of them being torutred and smiling while we did it. and please, refrain from getting an attitude like someone's insutling you personally. and yes, a terrorist attack on my city wouldn;t surprise me cause i live on the largest u.s. infantry base i the world, so don't try to get smart by saying such things.

mad pierrot
15-05-04, 07:06
the "funniest" part of this is how surprised everyone is. What did everyone expect? Lollipops and karaoke? I'm not condoning what they did, but people should wake up to the reality of war. Bad things happen in war, and we're in one. And trust me, for everything that makes it on to the evening news, there is more that doesn't.

ippolito
16-05-04, 16:53
it is today news......some iraqui were using all the guns they have versus
italian soldiers they were firing from an hospital....
so when they get pepole in jail how is possible to know if there are iinocents?
they use children and civilians as a sheld.....
I think this could be a never ending story.....let them to their destiny....another
saddam will come there under the strong power and control of a religious imams

As cannot back in the past...i can image all the money have been spent in this war
that could be used to help poor people in this world......especially children
if us leaves Iraq...will be a flop all the recostructions by us and other countries that partecipated there....and bilions of dollars burned.
Us gov. did not evalute the power of the religion there....they should remember
Iran....coming out from there will be problems.....and now patrol it is very expensive
war it is a war and can happen everything very horrible...it is not like many hollywood films that one guy with a gun kills 100s of enemies
lets leave Rambo to the cinema...the reality is different....
I have seen the video that us guy not militar and his head on the terrorist hand..
it is a tremendous that guy had don a lot of experience to cut heads...with men not with chiken...
.....i can image the italian they shut in the face....here no one in Internet show it

ashuri2
16-05-04, 21:00
the "funniest" part of this is how surprised everyone is. What did everyone expect? Lollipops and karaoke? I'm not condoning what they did, but people should wake up to the reality of war. Bad things happen in war, and we're in one. And trust me, for everything that makes it on to the evening news, there is more that doesn't.

you're perfectly right. i guess the part that got me so much was the fact that not only did they take pictures, they were sitting around smiling at all of this like it was some great lark and everything was fine. i can imagine the other things that go on that no one talks about...

bossel
17-05-04, 02:02
From http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/16/international/middleeast/16LYNN.html

"In a sworn statement to investigators, Pfc. Lynndie England explained the mystery of why soldiers at Abu Ghraib took pictures of detainees masturbating and piled naked with plastic sandbags over their heads by saying, "We thought it looked funny so pictures were taken."

Private England's statement, made May 5, narrates the graphic photographs now at the center of the prison abuse scandal in specific detail and a matter-of-fact tone, describing the abuse as routine and sometimes amusing, but almost never, to her mind, out of bounds.
[...]
Asked later if she thought anything was inappropriate, Private England replied that only the masturbation was. But throughout the statement, she repeats that she and other soldiers were ordered to do the things they did, which has been the defense made by lawyers for the soldiers and the soldiers themselves.

When pressed, however, she said there were no specific orders on how to "break" the detainees for interrogation. But, she said, military intelligence soldiers and others "would tell us to keep it up, that we were doing a good job" aiding the interrogations. Asked who told them to instruct the detainees to masturbate, she said, "I was just told we were doing a good job," according to the statement."

Keep it up, yeah! Well, my understanding of doing a good job is slightly different, but who am I...

Elizabeth
17-05-04, 02:13
the "funniest" part of this is how surprised everyone is. What did everyone expect? Lollipops and karaoke? I'm not condoning what they did, but people should wake up to the reality of war. Bad things happen in war, and we're in one. And trust me, for everything that makes it on to the evening news, there is more that doesn't.
Although I don't recall anything on this scale during the Gulf War, so either there was a clear policy shift towards these type of interrogation methods or the procedures to prevent it were thought to be in place.

senseiman
17-05-04, 05:01
According to an article in this week's New Yorker, the interrogation methods used at Abu Grhaib were originally developed to crack top Al Qauida prisoners captured in the Afghan war. In that war, by denying captives Prisoner of war status, the US was able to use torture and other methods against the prisoners that would otherwise have violated the Geneva conventions.

The shocking part of the article is the allegation that it was Donald Rumsfeld who, frustrated over the lack of information on WMD and the Iraqi uprising, authorized a secret program to allow interrogators in Iraq to use the same methods against prisoners there. One military official quoted in the article strongly opposed the decision, saying that unlike Afghanistan, where they were interrogating hardened terrorists, in Iraq most of the prisoners were "cab-drivers, brothers-in-law and other people off the street". It is estimated that about 60% of prisoners taken by the coalition in Iraq are innocent (the red cross puts the figure at 90%), and allowing torture methods designed for hardened Al-Quaida terrorists to be used against them is just plain criminal. The soldiers seen abusing prisoners in those photos may not have been a few rogues breaking the rules; they may have been following orders that directly flowed from policy decisions made in Washington. The Pentagon denies the claims, but if they turn out to be true it would certainly be the end of Rumsfeld's career and probably it would become one of the biggest political scandals to rock Washington in years.

ashuri2
17-05-04, 20:53
Although I don't recall anything on this scale during the Gulf War, so either there was a clear policy shift towards these type of interrogation methods or the procedures to prevent it were thought to be in place.

an interesting thing to note is perhaps such things did happen, just it never came out because the people were too smart- or knew what they were doing was wrong- to take pictures that could be used as solid evidence. all this whole situation does give the terrorists and other groups more ammunition in their tapes and makes other countries in the coalition align less willing to alogn themselves with the wil of the u.s... the latter result mightn' be too bad, as without all the support the u.s. would have to shoulder the entire weight of iraq and would have to withdraw sooner.

bossel
06-06-04, 02:41
Beating Specialist Baker (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/05/opinion/05KRIS.html)

It's obviously not only one prison in Iraq. This article by N.D. Kristof (NYT) is about an ex-guard in Guantanamo, who was ordered to play a prisoner in a training drill. He was treated so well that he suffered a traumatic brain injury & had to be given a medical discharge later.

Excerpts:
"[...]As instructed, Mr. Baker put on an orange prison jumpsuit over his uniform, and then crawled under a bunk in a cell so an "internal reaction force" could practice extracting an uncooperative inmate. The five U.S. soldiers in the reaction force were told that he was a genuine detainee who had already assaulted a sergeant.
[...]
When I couldn't breathe, I began to panic and I gave the code word I was supposed to give to stop the exercise, which was `red.' . . . That individual slammed my head against the floor and continued to choke me. Somehow I got enough air. I muttered out: `I'm a U.S. soldier. I'm a U.S. soldier.'
[...]
Meanwhile, a military investigation concluded that there had been no misconduct involved in Mr. Baker's injury. Hmm. The military also says it can't find a videotape that is believed to have been made of the incident.

Most appalling, when Mr. Baker told his story to a Kentucky reporter, the military lied in a disgraceful effort to undermine his credibility. Maj. Laurie Arellano, a spokeswoman for the Southern Command, questioned the extent of Mr. Baker's injuries and told reporters that his medical discharge was unrelated to the injuries he had suffered in the training drill.

In fact, however, the Physical Evaluation Board of the Army stated in a document dated Sept. 29, 2003: "The TBI [traumatic brain injury] was due to soldier playing role of detainee who was non-cooperative and was being extracted from detention cell in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, during a training exercise."
[...]
If the U.S. military treats one of its own soldiers this way — allowing him to be battered, and lying to cover it up — then imagine what happens to Afghans and Iraqis."

senseiman
06-06-04, 05:14
I read about that Baker guy, the abuse seems to be pretty widespread throughout the whole system of US prison camps that have sprung up in the past couple of years. One thing that hasn't been covered much is the fact that the military is currently investigating the deaths of 37 inmates at prisons in Iraq and Afghanistan which are believed to have been homicides commited by guards. That is much more serious than the photos and sexual humiliation.

Foxtrot Uniform
06-06-04, 06:01
The "detainees" don't exactly fall under the rules of the Geneva Convention because they are not war criminals, because according to America, there is no war in Iraq, just a general "fight" against terrorism, so they are not prisoners of war or criminals; instead, they are "detainees" who are being held which means that the Geneva Convention does exaclty apply to them, so they can do what they want to to the detainees. Smart huh? Instead if thinking up ways of how to get around the Geneva Convention, the U.S. govornment should fugure out ways to create peace in the Middle East or something.

ashuri2
07-06-04, 08:07
*raises eyebrow* holy crap, that's one of the reasons why i prolly won't join the military. not saying that people in the military are necessarily bad, but i hope to never be faced with a situation like that- either as the victim or the soldier following orders. my father's in the army, and i believe we're fortunate that he hasn't been called to serve in Iraq, because at the time he was a drill sergeant instructor at the infantry school. serving one's country is great, but all controversy this goes above and beyond the call of duty.