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Lina Inverse
13-05-04, 12:05
To get some life in here, and to get our English friends acquainted with our lovely language, I thought it would be best to start a German course.
Lessons will be one a day, consisting of a dialog, exercises and grammar.
It shouldn't be too hard for an English speaker to learn German, since English actually originated from early German. You can read more about this here (http://www.verbix.com/languages/germanic.asp).

Pronunciation
Before we start, I'll lose some words on pronunciation, since it differs notably on some letters. I'll leave out the letters which are the same.

a - always like ah in "father", never like a in anvil
ä - "a umlaut", equals normal English a (anvil, absolutely, action etc.)
au - Diphtong, like ow in "now"
ch - never like k as in English! There are two versions, voiced (as in Scottish "Loch" or "Bach"), and a more hissing voiceless version (e.g. in Chemie)
e - never like i as in evil, always like eh as in nebula
ei - Diphtong, similar to ai
eu - Diphtong, like oi in noise
g - always like g in garlic, never like g in George
j - never like English j, always like y in boy
o - always like o in normal
ö - o umlaut
r - soft sound, not a thrilled troathy sound like in English
s - refers to English s as well as to English z
u - never like English u as in unity, always like uh
ü - u umlaut
v - either like w or like f (not always like w as in English)
z - always like ts in Tsunami, never like English z
ß - "sharp s", always like normal English s

Lesson 1
Dialog
Lina: Hallo, ich bin Lina.
Frank: Angenehm. Ich bin Frank.
Lina: Angenehm. Wie geht es dir?
Frank: Danke, gut, und dir?
Lina: Danke, auch gut.

Lina: Ich bin Deutscher. Bist du auch Deutscher?
Frank: Nein, ich bin kein Deutscher. Ich bin Amerikaner.

Vocabulary 1
Hallo Hello
ich bin I am
Angenehm literally: "comfortable". Here, it means something like "Nice to meet you."
Wie geht es dir? How are you?
Danke Thanks
gut good
..., und dir? short for "...und wie geht es dir?" - "...and how are you?"
auch "also" or "..., too"
Deutscher German
Bist du...? Are you...?
Nein No
kein not a, no
Amerikaner American

Exercise 1(solution will be provided tomorrow)
Fill in the blanks.
1. Hallo, ___ ___ Frank.
2. ________, ich bin Lina.
3. Wie ____ es dir?
4. _____, gut.
5. ___ ___ Amerikaner.

Grammar 1
The personal pronouns:
1st person singular: ich (I)
2nd person singular: du (you)
3rd person singular: er (he), sie (she), es (it)
when adressing someone formally: Sie (you) - note the capital S

1st person plural: wir (we)
2nd person plural: ihr (you)
3rd person plural: sie (they)

Conjugation of the auxiliary verbs "sein" (to be) and "haben" (to have)
sein (to be)
ich bin I am
du bist you are
er, sie, es ist he, she it is
(formal address) Sie sind you are

wir sind we are
ihr seid you are
sie sind they are

haben (to have)
ich habe I have
du hast you have
er, sie, es hat he, she, it has
(formal address) Sie haben

wir haben we have
ihr habt you have
sie haben they have


Ok, that wraps it up for today. Comments welcome.

dreamer
13-05-04, 12:40
O_o?
Bist du ein Deutsches Lehrer ??

Frank D. White
13-05-04, 12:53
I printed it off and will study it ! Looking forward to future training, thanks again !

Frank

:haihai:

jeisan
13-05-04, 13:17
hmm maybe i should scan my old worksheets and post them :p

this is a neat idea lina :cool:

Mayura
13-05-04, 13:52
yeah, it is indeed! lol ^^

dreamy - isn't it: "bist du ein deutsch Lehrer?" '-'
I just noticed this forum today... o.O

Lina Inverse
13-05-04, 13:54
O_o?
Bist du ein Deutsches Lehrer ??
Du meinst "Deutschlehrer"? Das ist ein Service nur für euch :haihai:

@jeisan
Sicher doch, nur zu!

Mayura
13-05-04, 13:59
oh yeah, right... ^^; well... my spelling seems so bad... ^^;

hmm... *peeps answeres fromt eh top*

1. Hallo, ich bin Frank.
2. Angenehm, ich bin Lina. (<--- I don't normally say that... o.O lol ^^)
3. Wie geht es dir?
4. Danke, mir geht es sehr gut! (lol)
5. Ich bin nicht Amerikaner. (v.v;)

Lina Inverse
13-05-04, 15:41
oh yeah, right... ^^; well... my spelling seems so bad... ^^;

hmm... *peeps answeres fromt eh top*

1. Hallo, ich bin Frank.
2. Angenehm, ich bin Lina. (<--- I don't normally say that... o.O lol ^^)
3. Wie geht es dir?
4. Danke, mir geht es sehr gut! (lol)
5. Ich bin nicht Amerikaner. (v.v;)
to 2. Well, you can use several levels of formality... I tried to balance it somewhat...
most formal: "Guten Tag, ich bin..." - "Sehr erfreut, ihre Bekanntschaft zu machen." literally: "Good day, I am..." - "(I am) very pleased to make your acquantance."
formal: "Guten Tag..." - "Angenehm."
somewhat formal: "Hallo..." - "Angenehm."
informal: "Hallo..." - "Hallo."
Also for "How are you?", you have a formal and an informal version:
formal: "Wie geht es Ihnen?"
informal: "Wie geht es dir?"

to 5. well, not quite... instead of "nicht", you'd rather use another word. Look at the vocabulary.

dreamer
13-05-04, 16:17
lol I see ^^'
Dang think I need to practice a lot more ^^

Ten'shi-no-Shippuu
13-05-04, 20:03
Lina....Brauchst du ein bisschen hilfe um zu lehren?
Mein Deutsch ist etwas verschieden, aber die Grundlagen sind gleich!
Ich bin immer verfügbar!! :-)

Lina Inverse
13-05-04, 20:21
Lina....Brauchst du ein bisschen hilfe um zu lehren?
Mein Deutsch ist etwas verschieden, aber die Grundlagen sind gleich!
Ich bin immer verfügbar!! :-)
Danke für's Angebot... wenn ich Schwyzertütsch brauche, laß ich's dich wissen :relief:

bossel
14-05-04, 04:04
Great post, Lina! Would have to add something about pronunciations, though.

All vowels have a long & a short sound, the pronunciation then differs a bit.


ch - never like k as in English!
With some exceptions, eg. Christus (Christ). In some regions (eg. parts of Bavaria, I think) the pronunciation in initial position is always 'k'.
Another pronunciation for ch is 'tsch' as in bachelor, which is also used in German.

j - never like English j, always like y in boy
Except for loanwords, that is, eg. Jeans or Jeep.

r - soft sound, not a thrilled troathy sound like in English
Depends where in Germany you are. Where I live, it is often spoken like 'ch' in Rauch.

sch - like 'sh' in shine

tio - as in Nation is pronounced like 'tsio'

tsch - like 'ch' in bachelor

u - never like English u as in unity, always like uh
Pronunciation usually like 'u' as in rule or bull. Again except for loanwords, eg. computer.

Actually, exceptions apply for many letters, esp. in loanwords. If you see a word that looks like English, then in most cases you can pronounce it the English way & will be understood.

A good English-German-English online translator is Leo:
http://dict.leo.org/?lang=en
You can find (High German) pronunciation sound files for many German words.

If you ever come to Germany be prepared to encounter some strange regional varieties of pronunciation.

Mr. Manji
14-05-04, 04:16
WOW, thank you for doing this! :) i always wanted to teach myself some german, this will be a great way for me to start :)
thanks again!

Golgo_13
14-05-04, 04:48
Auf Wiedertypen !

Mayura
14-05-04, 09:31
hmm... how bout:

Ich bin kein Amerikaner. ??? o.O oh well... ^^ dun really care... haha~ as long as I get good grades in school, everyhting's fine with me... lol j/k j/k... :p

Lina Inverse
14-05-04, 11:27
Great post, Lina! Would have to add something about pronunciations, though.

All vowels have a long & a short sound, the pronunciation then differs a bit.

ch - never like k as in English!
With some exceptions, eg. Christus (Christ). In some regions (eg. parts of Bavaria, I think) the pronunciation in initial position is always 'k'.
Another pronunciation for ch is 'tsch' as in bachelor, which is also used in German.
That's only valid for foreign loan words which were taken from foreign languages, and where the original pronunciation has been kept. Bavaria I'd also call a foreign country, so this fits as well :relief:


j - never like English j, always like y in boy
Except for loanwords, that is, eg. Jeans or Jeep.
Same as with the ch, loanwords keep their original pronunciation.


r - soft sound, not a thrilled troathy sound like in English
Depends where in Germany you are. Where I live, it is often spoken like 'ch' in Rauch.
Never heard of that - where in Germany would that be?


sch - like 'sh' in shine
Indeed, not like 'sk' as an English speaker could assume.


tio - as in Nation is pronounced like 'tsio'
The German word is meant here, not the English one.
German pronunciation: nah-tsee-ohn
Same with German 'Information': een-fohr-mah-tsee-ohn


tsch - like 'ch' in bachelor
Yes. Example here would be Matsch, which rhymes on the beginning of 'bachelor': Matsch - bachelor


u - never like English u as in unity, always like uh
Pronunciation usually like 'u' as in rule or bull. Again except for loanwords, eg. computer. Actually, exceptions apply for many letters, esp. in loanwords. If you see a word that looks like English, then in most cases you can pronounce it the English way & will be understood.
Pretty much the only exceptions made are for loan words from foreign languages.


A good English-German-English online translator is Leo:
http://dict.leo.org/?lang=en
You can find (High German) pronunciation sound files for many German words.

If you ever come to Germany be prepared to encounter some strange regional varieties of pronunciation.
Indeed, it can vary a bit from region to region - with the big exsception being Bavaria. The dialect there, Bavarian, should better be regarded as a language of its own, as it's totally unintelligible to any normal German - but Bavaria is pretty much like a foreign country anyway, they even call themselves "Free country" :relief:

@Mayura:
That's absolutely correct! :cool:

Ok folks, ready for round two?

Lesson 2
This time, we'll take a closer look at the conjugation of the verbs.

Dialog 2 - Unterwegs nach Deutschland
(On the way to Germany)

Lina: Packst du die Koffer ins Auto?
Frank: Ja, ich packe die Koffer ins Auto.
...
Frank: Fertig. Fahren wir.
Lina: Ja, fahren wir.
(schaut auf die Uhr) Es ist schon spät.
Frank: Ja, es ist schon spät. Beeilen wir uns!

Am Flughafen
Lina: Schnell, beeilen wir uns!
Frank: Ja, schnell! Gehen wir zur Gepäckabfertigung!

Bei der Gepäckabfertigung
Personal: Wieviele Koffer haben Sie?
Lina: Wir haben zwei Koffer.
Personal: Stellen Sie die Koffer bitte aufs Band.
Lina: Sofort. (stellt die Koffer aufs Band)
Frank: Fertig?
Lina: Ja, fertig.
Frank: Dann komm schnell!
Lina: Ich komme.
Frank: Unser Flugzeug steht schon da!
Lina: In der Tat, es steht schon da! Laufen wir!

Vocabulary:
note: Verbs will only be listed in the infinitive form.
packen: to pack
Koffer: baggage
Auto: car
ja: yes
fertig: ready
fahren: to drive
schon: already
spät: late
beeilen: to hurry
Am Flughafen: at the airport
schnell: quick
gehen: to go
zur: to the
Gepäckabfertigung: baggage check-in
Personal: staff
wieviele: how many
zwei: two
stellen: to put
aufs: onto the
Band: (here) conveyor belt
dann: then
kommen: to come
unser: our
Flugzeug: airplane
stehen: to stand
da: there
in der Tat: infact, really
laufen: to run

Grammar 2:
Verb conjugation (present)

packen (to pack)
Infinitive: pack-en
Singular:
ich pack-e
du pack-st
er,sie,es pack-t
(formal) Sie pack-en
Plural:
wir pack-en
ihr pack-t
sie pack-en
Imperative: (command)
singular: pack!
plural: pack-t!

fahren (to drive)
Infinitive: fahr-en
Singular:
ich fahr-e
du fähr-st (note: a becomes ä!)
er, sie, es fähr-t (note: a becomes ä!)
(formal) Sie fahr-en
Plural:
wir fahr-en
ihr fahr-t
sie fahr-en
Imperative:
singular: fahr!
plural: fahr-t!

gehen (to go)
Infinitive: geh-en
Singular:
ich geh-e
du geh-st
er,sie,es geh-t
Plural:
wir geh-en
ihr geh-t
sie geh-en

Exercise 2:
Conjugate the verbs stellen (stell-en), kommen (komm-en), stehen (steh-en), laufen (lauf-en).

Golgo_13
14-05-04, 20:45
hmm... how bout:

Ich bin kein Amerikaner. ??? o.O oh well... ^^ dun really care... haha~ as long as I get good grades in school, everyhting's fine with me... lol j/k j/k... :p

John F. Kennedy said "Ich bin ein Berliner" in a speech in Germany.

fixelbrumpf
14-05-04, 21:33
About the German "ch" sound in words like "Chemie" and "China": It sounds quite a bit like the "hissing" "hi" sound in "hito" in some Japanese dialects. The video game character Richter Belmont's name is written "リヒター" in Japanese for a good reason. In the English version of Castlevania: Symphony of the Night, they pronounce it "Righter", which is -- you may have guessed it -- totally wrong.

I used to know the address of a web site with a few audio examples, perhaps I'll manage to dig it up again.

Edited bcuz eye kant spel

Lina Inverse
14-05-04, 21:37
John F. Kennedy said "Ich bin ein Berliner" in a speech in Germany.
I know. There's even a popular joke about this over here:
"Recently, they exhumed Kennedy and filled him with jam. Why?" - "Because he said: 'Ich bin ein Berliner.' " :D
For this, you need to know that there is a bakery product over here called "Berliner" which is somewhat like a doughnut, but without a hole in the center, and always filled with jam :hihi:
http://www.smallis.de/mediac/400_0/media/5Ballen2.jpg

Golgo_13
14-05-04, 22:20
Then there's the joke about a dozen Polish guys attacking a German woman, and she screams "Nein ! Nein !" and three of the Polish guys left.

bossel
15-05-04, 02:42
Same as with the ch, loanwords keep their original pronunciation.
As long as they are not "eingedeutscht". That's a matter of language distance & time.



Never heard of that - where in Germany would that be?
Niederrhein (Lower or Nether Rhine). We pronounce eg. "warten" like "wachten". Another regional feature is the missing sch-sound, most of us can only pronounce it like 'ch' in "ich".

BTW, 'ch' as 'k' is not restricted to loanwords. Take the examples "höchstens" or "nächstes Mal".



Pretty much the only exceptions made are for loan words from foreign languages.
Loanwords are always from foreign languages, else they are not called loanwords, for what I know.




Indeed, it can vary a bit from region to region - with the big exsception being Bavaria. The dialect there, Bavarian, should better be regarded as a language of its own, as it's totally unintelligible to any normal German - but Bavaria is pretty much like a foreign country anyway, they even call themselves "Free country" :relief:
Hmm, you really have an issue with Bavaria, it seems. Don't be too negative! They are human, too. :D BTW, don't forget that there is more than one dialect in Bavaria.
Pretty much every dialect in Germany could be regarded as a separate language, for being unintelligible with some other German dialects. If I would speak Jläbecker Platt (the dialect of my hometown) to you, you probably wouldn't understand very much either. Luckily for you, I myself cannot really speak it (& even have problems understanding parts of it).

jeisan
15-05-04, 02:55
ok the alphabet with my generic proncitations, used them til i could remember when i was learning. german letter left, english sound on right. letteron right = english letter if you were to say.

A - ah
B - bay
C - say
D - day
E - A
F - F
G - gay
H - ha
I - E
J - yot
K - K
L - L
M - M
N - N
O - O
P - pay
Q - coo
R - air
S - S
T - tay
U - oo
V - fay
W - va
X - ix
Y - upsilon
Z - tzet

and numbers for ya

1 - ein
2 - zwei
3 - drei
4 - vier
5 - fünf
6 - sechs
7 - sieben
8 - acht
9 - neun
10 - sehn

bossel
15-05-04, 03:46
Jeisan, this should be very useful for English native speakers. :cool: Almost all correct (although, of course, the pronunciation is not 100% German), only a few mis-pronunciations.

C - tsay

V - fow ('ow' as in eyebrow)

1 - eins

10 - zehn (pronounced something like 'tsayne')


'C' is a bit ambiguous in German. It can be pronounced as 'ts', 'k', 's' & even 'tsch' (in loanwords from Italian mainly).

Lina Inverse
15-05-04, 11:23
Niederrhein (Lower or Nether Rhine). We pronounce eg. "warten" like "wachten". Another regional feature is the missing sch-sound, most of us can only pronounce it like 'ch' in "ich".

BTW, 'ch' as 'k' is not restricted to loanwords. Take the examples "höchstens" or "nächstes Mal".
Nope, that's not valid. In both cases, the 'ch' is clearly not pronounced as 'k' - as long as you don't come from the Nether-Rhine, that is :baka:
My area, the Ruhrgebiet (Ruhr area) also has its pecularities. 'ch' and 'sch' are always pronounced as such.
'g' at the end of a word is always pronounced like a voiced 'ch': Tag -> Tach.
't' at the end of a word is omitted: nicht -> nich, ist -> is.
'er' at the end of a word is pronounced like 'a': Futter -> Futta.
There are also a few contractions of frequently used words, like haben -> ham und wir -> wa.
So, the sentence "Haben wir nicht" would be pronounced "Ham wa nich" :haihai:


Hmm, you really have an issue with Bavaria, it seems. Don't be too negative! They are human, too. :D BTW, don't forget that there is more than one dialect in Bavaria.
Pretty much every dialect in Germany could be regarded as a separate language, for being unintelligible with some other German dialects. If I would speak Jläbecker Platt (the dialect of my hometown) to you, you probably wouldn't understand very much either. Luckily for you, I myself cannot really speak it (& even have problems understanding parts of it).
Clearly, this isn't true for all dialects, only for a few, most notably Plautdietsch (Low German), Frisian and Bavarian. You can see an exact list here as to which dialects are regarded as separate languages:
Languages of Germany (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=Germany)


ok the alphabet with my generic proncitations, used them til i could remember when i was learning. german letter left, english sound on right. letteron right = english letter if you were to say.
Hate to tell you, but your pronunciation scheme is off by a good measure :relief:
I'll give a proper one below:

a - ah
b - beh
c - tseh
e - eh
f - ehf
g - gheh
h - hah
i - ee
j - yot
k - kah
l - el
m - em
n - en
o - oh
p - peh
q - kuh
r - ehr
s - ehs
t - teh
u - uh
v - fow
w - weh
x - iks
y - ipsilon
z - tset

Lina Inverse
16-05-04, 02:20
Lesson 3
Today we'll take a look at the German articles.

Dialog 3

Im Flugzeug
Lina: Hast du alles?
Frank: Ja, ich habe alles
Lina: Bist du sicher?
Frank: Ja, ich bin sicher.

Lina: Was ist mit dem Paß?
Frank: Ja, ich habe den Paß mit.
Lina: Was ist mit der Kreditkarte?
Frank: Ja, ich habe die Kreditkarte mit.
Lina: Was ist mit dem Rasierwasser?
Frank: Ja, ich habe das Rasierwasser mit.

Lina: Hast du auch eine Zahnbürste?
Frank: Ich habe auch eine Zahnbürste.
Lina: Hast du auch einen Kamm?
Frank: Ich habe auch einen Kamm.
Lina: Hast du auch ein Erste-Hilfe-Set?
Frank: Ich habe auch ein erste-Hilfe-Set.

Frank: Bist du jetzt zufrieden?
Lina: Ja, jetzt bin ich zufrieden.

Vocabulary 3:
alles: everything
Bist du sicher? Are you sure?
was: what
Paß: passport
Kreditkarte: credit card
Schlüpfer: slip
Rasierwasser: after shave
Zahnbürste: tooth brush
Kamm: comb
Erste-Hilfe-Set: first aid kit
jetzt: now
zufrieden: satisfied

Grammar 3
The definite articles
male singular
Nominativ: der Paß
Genitiv: des Passes *
Dativ: dem Paß
Akkusativ: den Paß
plural
Nominativ: die Pässe *
Genitiv: der Pässe *
Dativ: dem Pässen *
Akkusativ: den Pässen *

* ß becomes ss when the two s are pronounced separately

female singular
Nominativ: die Kreditkarte
Genitiv: der Kreditkarte
Dativ: der Kreditkarte
Akkusativ: die Kreditkarte
plural
Nominativ: die Kreditkarten
Genitiv: der Kreditkarten
Dativ: den Kreditkarten
Akkusativ: die Kreditkarten

neutrum singular
Nominativ: das Rasierwasser
Genitiv: des Rasierwassers
Dativ: dem Rasierwasser
Akkusativ: das Rasierwasser
plural
Nominativ: die Rasierwässer
Genitiv: der Rasierwässer
Dativ: den Rasierwässern
Akkusativ: die Rasierwässer

The indefinite articles
For plural, the article is omitted.
male singular:
Nominativ: ein Kamm
Genitiv: eines Kamms
Dativ: einem Kamm
Akkusativ: einen Kamm

female singular
Nominativ: eine Zahnbürste
Genitiv: einer Zahnbürste
Dativ: einer Zahnbürste
Akkusativ: eine Zahnbürste

neutrum singular
Nominativ: ein Set
Genitiv: eines Sets
Dativ: einem Set
Akkusativ: ein Set

Exercise 3
Give the appropriate answers (as in the dialog).

1. Was ist mit der Zahnbürste?
A: Ja, _________________________
2. Was ist mit dem Kamm?
A: Ja, _________________________
3. Was ist mit dem Erste-Hilfe-Set?
A: Ja, _________________________

4. Hast du auch einen Paß?
A: Ich _________________________
5. Hast du auch eine Kreditkarte?
A: Ich _________________________
6. Hast du auch ein Rasierwasser?
A: Ich _________________________

Ok, that's it for today :wave:

bossel
16-05-04, 04:52
Nope, that's not valid. In both cases, the 'ch' is clearly not pronounced as 'k' - as long as you don't come from the Nether-Rhine, that is :baka:
Which shows, that even I can still learn something about German. First I thought, "Oh, she's from the Ruhrgebiet! That's the reason." But then I looked it up in the Duden & you're right. :shock:
This also shows that everyday language in Germany is not the same as High German.



Clearly, this isn't true for all dialects, only for a few, most notably Plautdietsch (Low German), Frisian and Bavarian.
My argument related to you talking about Bavarian being unintelligible. Most dialects are unintelligible to those who only speak High German, except for the regions that constituted its birth area.
German is not really a language, but a dialect continuum. No matter which dialect you speak, it is pretty much unintelligible to all others (depending on the distance, naturally). This continuum has no clear boundaries between dialects, eg. the place I come from is in a transition zone from Ripuarian to Low Saxon (although according to your link, we would actually be Low Saxon), the dialect has features of both.

Furthermore, in linguistics there is actually no clear distinction between dialects & languages, even here the boundaries are blurry. You will find a lot of differing definitions. Distinctions are often more politically motivated than scientific.



Hate to tell you, but your pronunciation scheme is off by a good measure :relief:
I'll give a proper one below:
Actually, Jeisan's scheme may not correspond 100% to Standard German pronunciation (neither does yours, BTW), but it's a good starting point for native English speakers. You seem quite motivated to teach German, but I think you want too much too quickly.


BTW, Schlüpfer? Do they actually say this in the Ruhrgebiet? Seems a bit old-fashioned. I would call it Slip or Unterhose. :hat:

jeisan
16-05-04, 05:48
lina, i know they are abit off, its hard to learn a language without being able to hear it. the main purpose of the alphabet bit was to get people to say the letters at least somewhat simliar to how they're said, get a basic idea of how it sounds. or at least how it sounded to me, a native english speaker, when i was first learning anyway. as with most things start small and build your way up, language is certainly not something you can just jump right into.

Bossel, danke schön.

common verb conjugations

HAVE - HABEN
i have - ich habe
you have - du hast
he/she/it has - er/sie/es hat
we have - wir haben
they have - sie haben
you (formal) - Sie haben
you (plural) - Ihr habt

BE - SEIN
i am - ich bin
you are - du bist
he/she/it is - er/sie/es ist
we are - wir sind
they are - sie sind
you (formal) - Sie sind
you (plural) - Ihr seid

Lina Inverse
16-05-04, 13:26
My argument related to you talking about Bavarian being unintelligible. Most dialects are unintelligible to those who only speak High German, except for the regions that constituted its birth area.
German is not really a language, but a dialect continuum. No matter which dialect you speak, it is pretty much unintelligible to all others (depending on the distance, naturally). This continuum has no clear boundaries between dialects, eg. the place I come from is in a transition zone from Ripuarian to Low Saxon (although according to your link, we would actually be Low Saxon), the dialect has features of both.

Furthermore, in linguistics there is actually no clear distinction between dialects & languages, even here the boundaries are blurry. You will find a lot of differing definitions. Distinctions are often more politically motivated than scientific.
Well, I just wanted to express that the dialects are varying in different degrees from Standard High German, and while some are still intelligible to someone speaking High German, some others (especially Bavarian) are not.



BTW, Schlüpfer? Do they actually say this in the Ruhrgebiet? Seems a bit old-fashioned. I would call it Slip or Unterhose. :hat:
I would rather call "Unterhose" extremely antiquitated. Only my grandparents would use such a very old-fashioned word anymore.
"Schlüpfer" is the most common term for it and the most broadly used one. In a department store, you'll practically always find "Schlüpfer" as well. In a few cases, you might also find "Slips", but not very often, and then exclusively referring to woman's underwear.

@jeisan
Yes, it might sound different if you hear it the first time as a native American :relief:
I recommend you to take a look at the Leo site, which also has pronunciation files (wav sounds) for the German words. Here is the result page for "Schlüpfer", click on the http://dict.leo.org/p.gif after the word to hear the pronunciation:
Leo - Schlüpfer (http://dict.leo.org/?p=1ZRX..&search=Schl%FCpfer)

I already listed the conjugation of the auxiliary verbs (haben+sein) in my first post in this thread...

jeisan
16-05-04, 13:44
hahahaha i missed that bit :relief:
well as this is your native language youre bound to be more on the ball about teaching it than i am. hell i dont even remember all the "the" forms anymore :p

interesting site lina, thanks.

bossel
17-05-04, 04:05
I would rather call "Unterhose" extremely antiquitated. Only my grandparents would use such a very old-fashioned word anymore.
"Schlüpfer" is the most common term for it and the most broadly used one. In a department store, you'll practically always find "Schlüpfer" as well. In a few cases, you might also find "Slips", but not very often, and then exclusively referring to woman's underwear.
Sorry, but this time you are wrong (or maybe not, who knows what's going on in the Ruhrpott). What I actually associate Schlüpfer with are those underpants my grandma would wear. Slip is definitely used for men's pants as well. Unterhose may be a bit old-fashioned but is still in use, though maybe more in my social class (me being a Prolo [a pleb]) :football: .

From Duden Universalwörterbuch:
Schlüp|fer, der; -s, - (veraltend): 1. <oft auch im Pl. mit singularischer Bed.> Unterhose mit kurzen Beinen, bes. für Damen u. Kinder





well as this is your native language youre bound to be more on the ball about teaching it than i am. hell i dont even remember all the "the" forms anymore :p
Actually, being a native does not make you a good teacher. I would advise all who start to learn a new language to do the first steps with an experienced teacher who has the same mother tongue as you. Once you know the basics, it's best to go to a country where the language you learn is spoken.
But always be careful in choosing a language school or teacher.

If you learn just for fun or to refresh your knowledge, what we do here may be good enough, though. :evil:

Two more links for learning German:
http://www2.goethe.de/z/50/linaleo/start2.htm
Beginners' course for self learners from the Goethe Institut

http://www.dw-world.de/english/0,3367,2547-0-0-S,00.html
German courses from the Deutsche Welle, beginners/intermediate/business, with audio files. They also have online radio & TV.

Lina Inverse
18-05-04, 01:11
Sorry, but this time you are wrong (or maybe not, who knows what's going on in the Ruhrpott). What I actually associate Schlüpfer with are those underpants my grandma would wear. Slip is definitely used for men's pants as well. Unterhose may be a bit old-fashioned but is still in use, though maybe more in my social class (me being a Prolo [a pleb]) :football: .

From Duden Universalwörterbuch:
Schlüp|fer, der; -s, - (veraltend): 1. <oft auch im Pl. mit singularischer Bed.> Unterhose mit kurzen Beinen, bes. für Damen u. Kinder
I don't know what sort of weird "Duden" you claim to have there, but it clearly differs from mine which neither says that it would be outdated (which it clearly isn't), nor that it is especially for Ladies and children (which it isn't either). I checked back with the online version at xipolis.net, and it's not mentioned there either:

Schlüp|fer, der; -s, -: 1. <oft auch im Pl. mit singularischer Bed.> Unterhose mit kurzen Beinen
Quelle: Duden: Das große Wörterbuch der deutschen Sprache in 10 Bänden. 3., völlig neu bearbeitete und erweiterte Auflage. Mannheim, Leipzig, Wien, Zürich: Dudenverlag 1999.

I don't want to insinuate anything, but it seems that a certain someone added these things so that he looks good :p

Netlexion.de says that it's simply the German equivalent for the English "slip":
http://www.net-lexikon.de/Slip.html

Unter einem Slip, dt. Schlüpfer, versteht man eine Unterhose oder Badehose, die ohne Beinansatz geschnitten ist.

Knapper geschnittene Slips bezeichnet man als Sportslips.

Bis in die 70er Jahre des 20. Jahrhunderts trugen Männer meist weiße Doppelripp-Slips mit Eingriff. Diese wurden dann durch Feinripp-Slips mit Eingriff, die häufig auch farbig (meist hellblau oder beige) und/oder bedruckt waren sowie durch bunte Sportslips ohne Eingriff abgelöst.

Ab den 80er Jahren kamen vermehrt Boxershorts auf den Markt, in den 90ern Retropants.

Golgo_13
18-05-04, 01:24
I still remember the first day of class in high school German in 1978.

Was machst du heute? Ich ube geige.

Wohin geht Peter? An den see.

bossel
18-05-04, 02:34
I don't want to insinuate anything, but it seems that a certain someone added these things so that he looks good :p
Well, you are insinuating something & I'm pretty pissed about it. You're the 1st one I gave a bad reputation point.

My quote is from the Duden Universalwörterbuch, part of PC-Bibliothek 2, Copyright 1993-2000 Bibliographisches Institut & F.A. Brockhaus AG.

The quote is without any addition, but I left out the following:
"2. bequem geschnittener, sportlicher Herrenmantel mit großen, tiefen Armlöchern;

(c) Dudenverlag"

As you see, this is not related to the slip-part, & the copyright appears automatically when copying text from the PC-Bibliothek to the clipboard.

bes. (besonders = especially/particularly) doesn't mean usage in exclusively one way, only that usage is mainly like that.

Maybe in other dictionaries the text of the entry for Schlüpfer varies, but the one I quoted is exactly according to my experience with the word. As I said, maybe the Ruhrpott has a different view of the world.


Please refrain in future from "not insinuating" that I'm a liar or cheater!


I still remember the first day of class in high school German in 1978.

Was machst du heute? Ich ube geige.

Wohin geht Peter? An den see.

3 little mistakes:
Ich übe Geige.
An den See.

Nouns are always written with an initial capital letter.

If you are not able to write Umlaute because of your hard- or software, you can simply write them as follows:

ä - ae
ö - oe
ü - ue

Lina Inverse
18-05-04, 12:48
Well, you are insinuating something & I'm pretty pissed about it. You're the 1st one I gave a bad reputation point.

My quote is from the Duden Universalwörterbuch, part of PC-Bibliothek 2, Copyright 1993-2000 Bibliographisches Institut & F.A. Brockhaus AG.

The quote is without any addition, but I left out the following:
"2. bequem geschnittener, sportlicher Herrenmantel mit großen, tiefen Armlöchern;

(c) Dudenverlag"

As you see, this is not related to the slip-part, & the copyright appears automatically when copying text from the PC-Bibliothek to the clipboard.

bes. (besonders = especially/particularly) doesn't mean usage in exclusively one way, only that usage is mainly like that.

Maybe in other dictionaries the text of the entry for Schlüpfer varies, but the one I quoted is exactly according to my experience with the word. As I said, maybe the Ruhrpott has a different view of the world.

Please refrain in future from "not insinuating" that I'm a liar or cheater!
Well, if you really didn't add anything about it, you should have a clear consience and absolutely no reason to throw a fit about it... if you can do that, so can I :auch:
Apparently the electronic "Unversalwörterbuch" differs somewhat from the more precise "Duden in 10 Bänden" edition, probably due to different people working on it coming from different regions of Germany, having different opinions about how certain words are used... who knows.
What you named under 2. is also in my Duden version, but since it didn't partain to the intended meaning, I left it out.
I've never heard anyone referring to a "Schlüper" as some sort of mantle... :okashii:

@Golgo 13
The cpitalization scheme differs somewhat from English. While in English, only few things are capitalized (beginning of a sentence, names, nationality references, "I"), in German, there are also nouns always capitalized. However, in turn, neither "I" ("ich" in German) nor nationality references are capitalized.

the German athlete -> der deutsche Athlet
the Italian noodles -> die italienischen Nudeln
the Japanese house -> das japanische Haus

Golgo_13
18-05-04, 21:57
Can you guys argue in German so the rest of us don't have to understand?

Lina Inverse
19-05-04, 00:45
Can you guys argue in German so the rest of us don't have to understand?
Well, I think there is nothing to add to this "Schlüpfer" debate, so let's get back to business.

So you learned German in High school? For how many years?

Golgo_13
19-05-04, 02:18
I took Spanish for 3 years in Junior high and 2 years in high school, then had a year of German in high school. I recently contacted my former German teacher, Herr Schwagermann, by e-mail, and after over 20 years he still remembered me.

I got to a point where I could read Franz Kafka's "Die Verwandlung" (spell?) in German, but now I've forgotten almost all that I learned. I still remember much of my Spanish because I'm exposed to it quite a bit here in Los Angeles.

It's funny how when some of my Jewish friends speak in Yiddish I recognize some German words in them.

Lina Inverse
19-05-04, 19:28
I took Spanish for 3 years in Junior high and 2 years in high school, then had a year of German in high school. I recently contacted my former German teacher, Herr Schwagermann, by e-mail, and after over 20 years he still remembered me.

I got to a point where I could read Franz Kafka's "Die Verwandlung" (spell?) in German, but now I've forgotten almost all that I learned. I still remember much of my Spanish because I'm exposed to it quite a bit here in Los Angeles.

It's funny how when some of my Jewish friends speak in Yiddish I recognize some German words in them.
Yes, it's "Die Verwandlung".
Are there living that much Spaniards in LA?

Concerning Yiddish, no wonder - it's also a Germanic language and very close to German, actually much closer than any other Germanic language (English, Dutch, Norse languages).
It would still be even much closer to German if it wouldn't have been for the Third Reich. Most speakers of the Yiddish dialect that was closest to German have been killed, and among the others a trend started to de-Germanize their language somewhat, although that didn't go very far.
Here's a link if you want to know more: Eydes Jiddisch (http://www.eydes.org/eydes.htm)

Golgo_13
19-05-04, 21:02
Are there living that much Spaniards in LA?


Not Spaniards from Spain per se but millions of Spanish-speaking immigrants from Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador, etc.

Lina Inverse
19-05-04, 22:33
Not Spaniards from Spain per se but millions of Spanish-speaking immigrants from Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador, etc.
Really? What I heard about it is that most of them come to New Mexico (hence the name), and a good amount of them also come to Texas, but Californa? That's news to me. Ok, it's not that far... but wouldn't they rather go to San Diego?

Golgo_13
19-05-04, 22:39
They DO go to San Diego, and every other city in the state of California, including many of the agriculturally important cities. Americans don't go out into the vegetable fields in the hot sun and pick the crop, illegal aliens from Latin America do.

But since LA is the biggest city in California, naturally most end up here.

BTW, New Mexico wasn't named that because many Mexicans go to that state.

Lina Inverse
19-05-04, 22:59
They DO go to San Diego, and every other city in the state of California, including many of the agriculturally important cities. Americans don't go out into the vegetable fields in the hot sun and pick the crop, illegal aliens from Latin America do.

But since LA is the biggest city in California, naturally most end up here.

BTW, New Mexico wasn't named that because many Mexicans go to that state.
Aliens!? :relief: Well, I guess most Martians and such can't be picky about their work, can they?
Well, at least initially (a long time ago) many settlers from Mexico came there adn called their home New Mexico.Just like a long time ago, when British settlers from the town of York came to America, they named their new town New York.
As we're just talking about New York (or "Big Apple" - no idea why it's called that), I've heard that West Coast and East Coast (and of them, especially LA and NY) can't stand each other. Now as I have the opportunity to hear it right out of the mouth of the horse, so to say, I thought I'd ask you about how you think about NY? Don't you like them, or are these your best buddies?

Golgo_13
19-05-04, 23:16
Just like a long time ago, when British settlers from the town of York came to America, they named their new town New York.
As we're just talking about New York (or "Big Apple" - no idea why it's called that), I've heard that West Coast and East Coast (and of them, especially LA and NY) can't stand each other. Now as I have the opportunity to hear it right out of the mouth of the horse, so to say, I thought I'd ask you about how you think about NY? Don't you like them, or are these your best buddies?

Before it was named New York, it was a Dutch colony and was called New Amsterdam. I went to Stuyvesant High School, which was named after the first Dutch governor of New York.

There are many apple farms/orchards in upstate New York, and since NYC is the biggest city in the state of New York, the city is called the "Big Apple."

I'll always consider myslef a native New Yorker. I can still recite all the station names along the Flushing #7 train line. I like LA because of the weather and the larger Japanese-American population, but I like the people of NYC better. More culturally diverse than in LA. I find people in LA very self-centered, selfish and arrogant (you can tell just by the way everybody drives here). Afterall, this is the city of Hollywood, and everybody thinks he's a star. If NYC had lower cost of living and better weather, I still might be living there.

Lina Inverse
20-05-04, 01:04
So you actually come from New York? Very interesting... it isn't mentioned in your location (LA is clear, but the X in LAX? No idea about the other two...)
Well, since Hollywood's there, I can easily imagine people being that way.
Let's make an actual check of the temperatures (using Weather.com (http://www.weather.com))
Ok, here it is: US Weather Forecast May 20 (http://www.w3.weather.com/maps/activity/nationalparks/usweatherday2_large.html)
Los Angeles: 66°F (19°C)
New York: 70°F (21°C)
Well... seems like LA drew the shorter straw there :relief:
Sunny Germany: 75°F (24°C) today - guess you should better come over here :D

Angel of Dark Winds
04-06-04, 02:01
to 2. Well, you can use several levels of formality... I tried to balance it somewhat...
most formal: "Guten Tag, ich bin..." - "Sehr erfreut, ihre Bekanntschaft zu machen." literally: "Good day, I am..." - "(I am) very pleased to make your acquantance."
formal: "Guten Tag..." - "Angenehm."
somewhat formal: "Hallo..." - "Angenehm."
informal: "Hallo..." - "Hallo."
Also for "How are you?", you have a formal and an informal version:
formal: "Wie geht es Ihnen?"
informal: "Wie geht es dir?"

to 5. well, not quite... instead of "nicht", you'd rather use another word. Look at the vocabulary.
Mann, ich wusste nicht, dass ich bei einer "erste Stunde" etwas noch lernen kann :hey: ( ich habe "Angenehm" nie in einer Dialog gehört... )
(äh.. und wie du /euch siehst /sieht ich habe noch Problemen mit Artikeln und Adjektivdeklinazion :) )

Lina Inverse
07-06-04, 02:26
Mann, ich wusste nicht, dass ich bei einer "ersten Stunde" etwas noch lernen kann :hey: ( ich habe "Angenehm" nie in einem Dialog gehört... )
(äh.. und wie du/Sie siehst/sehen, habe ich noch Probleme- mit Artikeln und Adjektivdeklination :) )
Ich habe mal deine Fehler korrigiert :wave:
Soweit schon wirklich ganz gut :haihai:

"Angenehm" ist eine relativ formale Anrede, die im umgangssprachlichen Umgang in der Regel nicht verwendet wird.

steryos
15-06-04, 14:09
I find it quite strange coming from Australia where there is pretty much only one language/dialect, Australian English, to hear about how much dialects can differ with distance in Germany.
I went to Germany once and we were travelling to Bayern from Baden-Württemberg and there were some Bavarians on the train with us. I asked one of the guys I was with to tell us what they were saying but he couldn't understand a word!
And then I tried to talk Hochdeutsch to a couple Bavarians in Bayern but they couldn't understand me either. I thought it was because of my bad pronunciation then, but maybe it was because they only recognise their own München dialect well?
Travelling the same distance in Australia, for example from Victoria to South Australia, there is no difference whatsoever in language/dialect apart from a slight difference in accent which is most of the time unnoticeable.
Anyway, my German's alot better now than it was then, so if i went back to Germany I reckon I'd be able to communicate better than i could then.

Lina Inverse
20-02-05, 21:20
I find it quite strange coming from Australia where there is pretty much only one language/dialect, Australian English, to hear about how much dialects can differ with distance in Germany.
I went to Germany once and we were travelling to Bayern from Baden-WEttemberg and there were some Bavarians on the train with us. I asked one of the guys I was with to tell us what they were saying but he couldn't understand a word!
And then I tried to talk Hochdeutsch to a couple Bavarians in Bayern but they couldn't understand me either. I thought it was because of my bad pronunciation then, but maybe it was because they only recognise their own MEchen dialect well?
Travelling the same distance in Australia, for example from Victoria to South Australia, there is no difference whatsoever in language/dialect apart from a slight difference in accent which is most of the time unnoticeable.
Anyway, my German's alot better now than it was then, so if i went back to Germany I reckon I'd be able to communicate better than i could then.
The issue is probably that the Bavarian dialect is very different from Standard German, so much that I'd say it's a language of its own, as it's actually pretty much incomprehensible to any German. I guess the opposite would be right as well, a Bavarian will have difficulties understanding normal German if he only speaks Bavarian.
So, it's certainly not your fault that you weren't understood. If you went back to Germany (and not Bavaria), then you probably wouldn't have problems in being understood.

kevinsano
22-02-05, 15:38
Guten Tag, Ich habe Deutch nicht gesprecht(sp?) fur mehr als 6 Jahren. Ich habe verscheidene Tale gelehrt in die Zeit. Ein von die Talen ist Nederlandisch und die hast All mein worter geesst(Essen=eat, right?)

please tell me what's wrong with that sentence. My Dutch has obliterated my German.(I wonder why Deutsch isn't called Dutch in English)

Mycernius
22-02-05, 20:19
Gott in Himmel! I'm back at school. I'm 13 again trying to get my tongue around German. Actually I wanted to do German at school, but had to do French. Now let's try again.
For some reason my brother always uses the german for why

bossel
22-02-05, 23:24
Guten Tag, Ich habe Deutch nicht gesprecht(sp?) fur mehr als 6 Jahren. Ich habe verscheidene Tale gelehrt in die Zeit. Ein von die Talen ist Nederlandisch und die hast All mein worter geesst(Essen=eat, right?)

please tell me what's wrong with that sentence. My Dutch has obliterated my German.(I wonder why Deutsch isn't called Dutch in English)
Guten Tag, ich habe seit mehr als sechs Jahren kein Deutsch gesprochen. Ich habe in dieser Zeit (or: inzwischen, or: seitdem) verschiedene Sprachen gelernt (?, gelehrt is "taught"). Eine dieser Sprachen ist Niederl&#228;ndisch, und die hat alle [deutschen] W&#246;rter aufgefressen.

Dat is duidelijk te zien. "Taal" is Nederlands en je volgorde van de zinsdelen lijkt ook heel erg op Nederlands. Maar je kunt verstaan wat je wilt zeggen.

kevinsano
25-02-05, 00:08
Woah, Nederlands, dat helpt veel. Ik ben al die naamvallen vergeten. Thanks again. I'm gonna save my German grammer booklet from the dust it's been collecting.

Zauriel
15-03-05, 12:46
I already have studied German since October 2004. I've been studying German on a basis of two hours each day except Saturday, Sunday and Tuesday right now.

Ich woll Sie treffen. Aber mochten Sie mich treffen?

bossel
15-03-05, 17:26
Ich woll Sie treffen. Aber mochten Sie mich treffen?
Ich will/m&#246;chte Sie treffen. Aber m&#246;chten Sie mich treffen?

It depends on what you actually want to say, though. You wouldn't usually use the 2nd sentence as you did. Better versions (depending on context):

Wie w&#228;r's (= Wie w&#228;re es)?
Geht das?
H&#228;tten Sie Interesse?
Interessiert?
Haben Sie Zeit?

If you met a girl you want to get to know better, another less direct approach would be advisable, eg. inviting her on a coffee.

Zauriel
15-03-05, 20:08
Ich will/möchte Sie treffen. Aber möchten Sie mich treffen?

It depends on what you actually want to say, though. You wouldn't usually use the 2nd sentence as you did. Better versions (depending on context):

Wie wär's (= Wie wäre es)?
Geht das?
Hätten Sie Interesse?
Interessiert?
Haben Sie Zeit?

If you met a girl you want to get to know better, another less direct approach would be advisable, eg. inviting her on a coffee.

I see. And if i'm going to make a conversation with the girl, I should use the familiar pronoun of "du" instead of formal pronoun "Sie"?

I have already climbed up to the intermediate. I once practiced my German with an Austrian on the internet.

bossel
15-03-05, 20:21
I see. And if i'm going to make a conversation with the girl, I should use the familiar pronoun of "du" instead of formal pronoun "Sie"?
That also depends on context (& age), but usually that's alright. Du is the common approach up to the age of 30 (roughly).

Zauriel
15-03-05, 20:35
That also depends on context (& age), but usually that's alright. Du is the common approach up to the age of 30 (roughly).

Ich sehe. Viele Danke, Herr bossel.

Sirius2b
18-12-09, 05:52
Really? What I heard about it is that most of them come to New Mexico (hence the name), and a good amount of them also come to Texas, but Californa? That's news to me. Ok, it's not that far... but wouldn't they rather go to San Diego?

Ich lachele sehr... Ich könnte nichts dafür. :embarassed:

Lina Inverse... New Mexico, Texas, California und andere, waren mexikanische Bundestaaten bis 1848.

++++++++++++++++++++++++

Dieses Thema ist sehr interessant...

Die deutsche Sprache ist auch sehr interessant, von dem grammatische Gesichtspunkt. Der Predikat ist verteilt, und dies passiert nicht in Sprachen die aus Latein stammen.

Ist nicht deine Avatar von Azuka (Evangelion)?

Alle Achtung.

bcrich67
19-09-10, 05:42
John F. Kennedy said "Ich bin ein Berliner" in a speech in Germany.

what about a jelly donut?

Benzgolv
09-12-16, 21:54
Ich spreche ein bisschen Deutsch, weil ich in der Deutsche Schule gegangen war. Is that sentence correct? Or should it be "besuchen" instead of "gehen"? I'm trying to improve my German level, since I learned it in High School and I was pretty good at it. Something I could never understand is the use of accusative, dative, etc. it is so difficult! I don't know when to use der, den, dem. Is there an easy explanation? Like for dummies I mean

Aha
16-12-16, 12:42
There is nothing better and cheaper (free) to learn Deutsch than the Deutsche Welle language courses