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canadian_kor
24-06-04, 21:27
Did anyone see the beheading video of the Korean hostage Kim Sun Il? I actually saw it and became sick to my stomach. I think it hit harder because it was a fellow Korean who was the victim (even though all of the previous victims should be mourned for).

Frank D. White
24-06-04, 21:31
knowing ahead of time, what was going to happen to you, must be as bad as death when it comes!

Frank

:(

Golgo_13
25-06-04, 01:09
Just wait until they grab a woman or a child and behead her and videotape it for the whole world to see.

That's when shit's gonna hit the fan and real bullets are gonna start flyin' and real bombs are gonna start droppin'.

senseiman
25-06-04, 06:01
If I'm not mistaken, real bullets are flying and real bombs are droppin' already. There is a war on after all. I was just reading ten minutes ago that about 100 people were killed in battles across Iraq today alone. I doubt there are going to be any women or children getting beheaded on TV, mainly because there aren't many (any?) foreign women or children wandering around Iraq these days.

ashuri2
25-06-04, 08:12
If I'm not mistaken, real bullets are flying and real bombs are droppin' already. There is a war on after all. I was just reading ten minutes ago that about 100 people were killed in battles across Iraq today alone. I doubt there are going to be any women or children getting beheaded on TV, mainly because there aren't many (any?) foreign women or children wandering around Iraq these days.

good point, but some analysts predict that there will be many more beheadings in the future because of the publicity this one has gotten, and that if the terrorists continue such tactics all the foreign companies will withdraw, which is exactly what the terrorists want. it seems they have found the right button to push. i haven't seen it because on all the news channels it censored, of course...

RockLee
25-06-04, 15:58
I think these things require DRASTIC measurements...damn those religious bastards who try to spread their religion as THE ONLY GOOD ONE...what's up with that mentality afterall...look it's ok to have your own believes, but this is TOO much...I think they are a screwup of nature..something went wrong with their evolution...sometimes I think it better to just nuke the hell out off 'em...but then we wouldn't be any better....but surely THIS isn't the way it should go...they don't deserve to live...*gets angry* :okashii:

den4
25-06-04, 16:30
They aren't religious fanatics....they are merely people with a fanaticism for power, and they are corrupted by the desire to put fear into others. If they really wanted to help the Iraqi or Afghanistan people, there are other ways to really help them....they don't care about who they harm or kill, as long as they get the satisfaction of being on the world news as fear mongers.....
but then, the folks in the middle east aren't the only ones who love the media coverage, to cover up their own mistakes....for the time being....as the Time Being sees all and knows all.....

Elizabeth
25-06-04, 16:50
good point, but some analysts predict that there will be many more beheadings in the future because of the publicity this one has gotten, and that if the terrorists continue such tactics all the foreign companies will withdraw, which is exactly what the terrorists want. it seems they have found the right button to push. i haven't seen it because on all the news channels it censored, of course...
Aren't public beheadings specifically allowed under Muslim law ? I wouldn't be surprised if the Saudi government uses it alongside other methods of torture as part of their criminal justice toolkit.

Winter
25-06-04, 19:41
Its odd, about this situation. Terrorists, or as some call them, freedom fighters, will continue to use tactics like this in order to regain control of their crumbling nation. Many believe that the media coverage fuels more; I personally dont buy that. This isnt like the neighborhood bully that will leave you alone if you dont laugh at his cruel jokes, or be bothered by his tyranny. I think these fighters are a tad different.

What about the countless beheadings of civilians caught in the midst of the various civil wars in the continent of Africa? Do they not exist, simply because the media doesnt cover them? Poppycock. They are still there, happening as we speak. In fact, the slave trade still exists in Africa, did you know that? Not like how it was 300 years ago, no, its actually 'evolved', if you can believe that. What are these slaves doing? Why, getting chocolate, for the Sn*ckers bars, and other such candies consumed by the rest of the world.

Whats my point? My point is simple, and is this; this violence isnt new, and this violence will not stop; ESPECIALLY with the tactics and methods most of the nations wanting to stop it, are acting out.

Until we can formulate truly effective methods than just brutality and force, we are all going to suffer losses to our civilians. Its obvious that the various military forces there striving to maintain some sort of stability is out of our control, but what we can do as citizens, is educate ourselves enough so that the tempting prices of working to rebuild the counties in question *which I can safely assume is the main source of motivation* wont be enough to subject ourselves to political turmoils, and needless deaths and executions.

Glenn
25-06-04, 19:45
Well said, Winter. I didn't realize that there was still a slave trade! Well, I guess there are a lot of things that I still haven't realized, but that is truly shocking. I guess I won't be able to eat Sn*ckers anymore (not that I eat them all that much now, or any candy for that matter). What about diamonds? Is there a slave trade for that too, or do people just kill each other for the mines?

Golgo_13
25-06-04, 23:21
I doubt there are going to be any women or children getting beheaded on TV, mainly because there aren't many (any?) foreign women or children wandering around Iraq these days.

But there might be in Saudi Arabia. I don't think Al Qaida would even hesitate to do it if they ever kidnapped one. Of course, I'm sure that wouldn't bother you one bloody bit.

Excuse the pun.


the folks in the middle east aren't the only ones who love the media coverage, to cover up their own mistakes....for the time being....as the Time Being sees all and knows all.....

But they're the only ones right now who are beheading hostages and videotaping for the viewing pleasure of the whole world.

senseiman
26-06-04, 04:13
But there might be in Saudi Arabia. I don't think Al Qaida would even hesitate to do it if they ever kidnapped one. Of course, I'm sure that wouldn't bother you one bloody bit.

Excuse the pun.



.

Now lets not get all hostile again and start putting words into each other's mouths, I was just disagreeing with you, not trying to start a flame war. I'm curious as to how my simple criticism got translated in your head to my not being bothered "one bloody bit" by scenes of people getting beheaded.

You might be right about Saudi Arabia, though I'm thinking with all thats gone on recently anyone with family there would have sent them back home. Probably the more likely scenario would be a female US soldier in Iraq getting kidnapped and decapitated. If she looked like Jessica Lynch I imagine the reaction in the states would be pretty big.

Golgo_13
26-06-04, 05:26
Probably the more likely scenario would be a female US soldier in Iraq getting kidnapped and decapitated. If she looked like Jessica Lynch I imagine the reaction in the states would be pretty big.

Now we're gettin' somewhere. :beer: :D

That "pretty big reaction" was what I was trying to allude to with "real bullets" and "real bombs".

ashuri2
26-06-04, 07:39
on the smae program i heard the other info, they said in some middle eastern cultures that beheading is perfectly acceptable (like an electric chair or something) and is even considered humane when done quickly and with a sharp sword. of course, most of the world doesn't see it that way, and i think a lot of middle easterners would agree, as beheading was used as part of a justice system, not a group of radicals who use such tactics to get what they want. as for why some think their religion is the one everyone has to follow- it's part of the traditional way of thinking for many in that area, they are raised from youth to think that way, and some never learn differently. and then. of course, there are those who are willing to follow any crusade, be it justified/humane or not. and it happens everywhere, that they are people who were raised to believe that their way is the only way, just in some areas people believe the 'only way' encourages the use of blood to achieve the ultimate goal...

canadian_kor
26-06-04, 09:22
on the smae program i heard the other info, they said in some middle eastern cultures that beheading is perfectly acceptable (like an electric chair or something) and is even considered humane when done quickly and with a sharp sword. of course, most of the world doesn't see it that way, and i think a lot of middle easterners would agree, as beheading was used as part of a justice system, not a group of radicals who use such tactics to get what they want. as for why some think their religion is the one everyone has to follow- it's part of the traditional way of thinking for many in that area, they are raised from youth to think that way, and some never learn differently. and then. of course, there are those who are willing to follow any crusade, be it justified/humane or not. and it happens everywhere, that they are people who were raised to believe that their way is the only way, just in some areas people believe the 'only way' encourages the use of blood to achieve the ultimate goal...

Not to lighten the issue at hand, but I heard that beheading is one of the more merciful ways of executing people. The pain is minimal and the brain immediately goes into shock (after a few seconds...though some observers have said that the head can still be conscious for up to twenty seconds).

Foxtrot Uniform
26-06-04, 10:51
I'll be pretty pissed off too if some foreign invader suddenly came in one day without any real reason to invade and started shooting and bombing my fellow citizens. They are terrorists and that is another reason why they are beheading people. They want to instill terror into the hearts of people and it looks like the beheading is doing that. You have to remember though that the Americans and other military forces there have killed civilians and all deaths are tragic, regardless of how they died - being beheaded by Iraqis or accidentally having a bullet from the M16 of a "peace keeper" pass through your head.

aaltunn
26-06-04, 11:39
But there might be in Saudi Arabia. I don't think Al Qaida would even hesitate to do it if they ever kidnapped one. Of course, I'm sure that wouldn't bother you one bloody bit.

Excuse the pun.



But they're the only ones right now who are beheading hostages and videotaping for the viewing pleasure of the whole world.

hi everybody ...
well about the beheadings... so horrible and unacceptable ...

five guerillas from felluce said that jordan terrorist Ebu Musab el-Zarkavi was not at felluce...(us held operations still goes on to catch zarkavi)

by the way those fighters indicates that there was no link between terrorist zarkavi and felluce rebels...

ref:26-6-2004 hurriyet (daily)

by the way us enjoys the beheadings ... they got their lord of flies...
more beheadings will give born to new reasons to play dirty business on iraq...

turkish newspapers just released news about israeli commandos training kurdis commandos and holding operations both in iraq and iran...

it seems that the iraqi business will spread to all us...
great middle eastern master design projects and ordinary middle easterners...much more soldiers and civilians to be killed ...happy petroleum business men and others............

senseiman
26-06-04, 15:42
Now we're gettin' somewhere. :beer: :D

That "pretty big reaction" was what I was trying to allude to with "real bullets" and "real bombs".

Right on, I guess I didn't quite take the meaning of your first post.

I am curious though about what kind of reaction would be possible. After the video of those contractors getting mutilated in Fallujah a few months back the administration ordered the marines to raid the town and capture those responsible. But all they were able to do was lay seige to the town and after a couple weeks of brutal fighting in wich hundred of Iraqis and a dozen US troops were killed they had to pull out and basically surrender control of the city to the insurgents. It was a disaster really, after threatening for weeks to invade the town unless they surrendered those responsible, the US was basically made to look completely impotent to most Iraqis when they had to turn over the town to an ex-republican guard general.

They'll probably want to avoid that kind of mistake in the future, so I guess they'll just be limited to dropping bombs on suspected hide outs from now on.

Elizabeth
26-06-04, 17:06
What about the countless beheadings of civilians caught in the midst of the various civil wars in the continent of Africa? Do they not exist, simply because the media doesnt cover them? Poppycock. They are still there, happening as we speak. In fact, the slave trade still exists in Africa, did you know that? Not like how it was 300 years ago, no, its actually 'evolved', if you can believe that. What are these slaves doing? Why, getting chocolate, for the Sn*ckers bars, and other such candies consumed by the rest of the world.
Isn't it on the cocoa plantations that this problem is most acute ? I don't particularly care for anything with cocoa extract as it is, so boycotting wouldn't be much of a problem....Not sure about the trade in illegal/blood diamonds, although before any international awareness resistance fighters in places like the Congo, Angola, Sierra Leone would basically act as racketeers, buy off large mining operations using the profits to fuel their civil war and of course terrorize the local population. Some governments (such as Zimbabwe? Botsawana) have cracked down and there are cease fires in these countries except for the Congo, but still how to tell whether the diamonds brought to market are legitimate or seriously tainted :? (Not that I would personally purchase a huge number either way....:p)

Areku
27-06-04, 04:21
The countries with soldiers in Iraq have to resist these gruesome images and stick in there. If they withdraw, and the fanatics get what they want, then the deaths of people like Kim are pointless and humiliating. However, if they step up, and keep on pumping bullets and bombs into the ramshackle religious freaks, at least their deaths will be avenged.

To be honest I agree with Kilroy, what have we ever got out of the middle east? You don't see US/UK soldiers beheading people on TV do you. Incidents like this just go to show the inhumanity of the people we're fighting, they're dogs, nothing more.

Winter
27-06-04, 04:30
The countries with soldiers in Iraq have to resist these gruesome images and stick in there. If they withdraw, and the fanatics get what they want, then the deaths of people like Kim are pointless and humiliating. However, if they step up, and keep on pumping bullets and bombs into the ramshackle religious freaks, at least their deaths will be avenged.




Until another man, or men rise from the opposing side to avenge the death of the avenged....you know what I mean.

Where does it end?

senseiman
27-06-04, 04:59
The countries with soldiers in Iraq have to resist these gruesome images and stick in there. If they withdraw, and the fanatics get what they want, then the deaths of people like Kim are pointless and humiliating. However, if they step up, and keep on pumping bullets and bombs into the ramshackle religious freaks, at least their deaths will be avenged.

I agree that the people who be-headed those guys deserve to be hunted down and killed, but its hard to see what the point is of 'Sticking in there' just because you don't want those people to have died in vain. I think the war is pretty much already lost and the longer the US/UK stay in Iraq the longer the misery of the Iraqi people is going to be extended without serving any purpose.


To be honest I agree with Kilroy, what have we ever got out of the middle east? You don't see US/UK soldiers beheading people on TV do you. Incidents like this just go to show the inhumanity of the people we're fighting, they're dogs, nothing more.

No offence intended, but this type of judgementalism is just stupid. No, we haven't seen US troops be-heading Iraqis on TV, but we have seen pictures of them gloating over the corpses of Iraqi prisoners they have just beaten to death. Please explain to me how one is better than the other. I'm all ears.

RockLee
27-06-04, 22:26
Look...they BOTH make mistakes...they BOTH did wrong things, but America doesn't show pictures,movies WORLDWIDE of snuff(killing ppl for fun)...yeah this is what I call it..these ppl are just sick(just as the american/british rascist soldiers who did such an awefull thing)and shouldn't be doing such awefull things....but this is just because they are primitive :okashii: and to the ppl who think they don't want to globalize THEIR religion(wich is at the (some kind of) base of wars) is wrong, THEY DO think THEIR religion is the better one and they DO want to spread their believes...remember the "holy war"... :okashii:

JDubG
27-06-04, 22:37
I just cannot stand what they are doing right now! It really pisses me off!

ashuri2
27-06-04, 23:06
you know, some of you sound like real hypocrites, because te very same things you are saying about them and how they should all die is the very sme thing they are saying about us. true, they are criminals, but your mindsets seem rather alike, but your cultures re different so you don't kill others

ashuri2
28-06-04, 23:04
btw, that was my bf making a comment there, i let him check out the forum under my id.

bossel
29-06-04, 02:20
THEY DO think THEIR religion is the better one and they DO want to spread their believes...
Ah, you're talking of the Southern Baptists, are you? :p

But, actually, I think you're right about those guys who did the beheading: they are sick. You must be quite out of your mind if you think cutting throats on video or blowing up dozens of (mostly innocent) people would change anything in your favour.

kirei_na_me
29-06-04, 02:25
Ah, you're talking of the Southern Baptists, are you? :p

:D That is so funny. Only because I live in the 'Bible Belt' and have them all around me! They seem to be running cults. It's very scary.

Anyway...

Winter
29-06-04, 04:40
Look...they BOTH make mistakes...they BOTH did wrong things, but America doesn't show pictures,movies WORLDWIDE of snuff(killing ppl for fun)...yeah this is what I call it..these ppl are just sick(just as the american/british rascist soldiers who did such an awefull thing)and shouldn't be doing such awefull things....but this is just because they are primitive :okashii: and to the ppl who think they don't want to globalize THEIR religion(wich is at the (some kind of) base of wars) is wrong, THEY DO think THEIR religion is the better one and they DO want to spread their believes...remember the "holy war"... :okashii:

First, let me start by saying that I think among all the contradictory, and derogatory statements fueled by ignorance that have stemmed from the various comments in this thread alone, that is by far the most ignorant, and to me, the most offensive.

Now, that I got that out of the way, what makes you state the claim that these freedom fighters are primitive?

RockLee
29-06-04, 14:42
Well...with primitive I mean that these ppl don't even use common sense and just shoot everything on site that is "evil" in their opinion...they have no moral values...they just want to obtain their goal and do not care for other things, after all these years they still didn't develop to some kind of NICE warfare, but still use methods like decapitating and broadcast in on television..so that's what I think is primitive...

hey everybody has his own opinions, I didn't say you have to accept it so if you're offended by it...it because you chose to be!

Areku
29-06-04, 15:22
No offence intended, but this type of judgementalism is just stupid. No, we haven't seen US troops be-heading Iraqis on TV, but we have seen pictures of them gloating over the corpses of Iraqi prisoners they have just beaten to death. Please explain to me how one is better than the other. I'm all ears.

Firstly, our soldiers haven't kidnapped and held hostages, and then attempted to blackmail their government by showing them screaming and begging not to be killed.

Secondly, our TV stations wouldn't broadcast such videos to the public, cheering the terrorists on and generating just the effect they want. The fact they were shown on a legal TV channel is a perfect example of the difference between the UK/US and Iraq, and a perfect example of their primitive, backwards, religion-inspired culture.

You already explained yourself how one is better than the other, there's a less than subtle difference between holding someone hostage and then brutally executing them and chanting the name of a nonexistent god, and gloating over an enemy soldier's corpse (put yourself in a front line soldiers shoes? I reckon I'd do it too), in fact it's a huge difference.

Foxtrot Uniform
29-06-04, 19:27
You already explained yourself how one is better than the other, there's a less than subtle difference between holding someone hostage and then brutally executing them and chanting the name of a nonexistent god, and gloating over an enemy soldier's corpse (put yourself in a front line soldiers shoes? I reckon I'd do it too), in fact it's a huge difference.

At the end, there is not much of a difference. Beheaded by Islamic extremists or having your face blown off by Coalition troops, you still end up dead which is whats important. Both sides are commiting horrible acts of violence. Beheading a live human being is a cruel and inhumane way of executing somebody but what is equally cruel and inhumane is the murdering of civilians to bring peace or liberty or security or whatever reason the troops the fighting in Iraq have. So far, the USA and its allies are responsible for over 13,000 civilians deaths.

Now I am not saying that this justifies beheading prisoners, but I am saying that both sides have committed horrible acts of violence against humanity and that the longer the USA and its allies try to "rebuild" Iraq (which means cleaning up the horrible mess they made) the more people will be beheaded and the more civilians will be killed.

ashuri2
30-06-04, 00:51
Well...with primitive I mean that these ppl don't even use common sense and just shoot everything on site that is "evil" in their opinion...they have no moral values...they just want to obtain their goal and do not care for other things, after all these years they still didn't develop to some kind of NICE warfare, but still use methods like decapitating and broadcast in on television..so that's what I think is primitive...

hey everybody has his own opinions, I didn't say you have to accept it so if you're offended by it...it because you chose to be!

they do indeed have morals, they're just waaaay different from ours. For example, i think they would find it a sin or wrong to not try to kill the 'evil, infidel' americans. *shrugs* shows you how twisted humans can be...

RockLee
30-06-04, 01:04
butttttttttt.....they didn't always have those 'morals' you mention -> kill americans...
So it's not a moral *sigh* I said they kill EVERYONE who isn't doing it their way, so not only Americans....god why does everybody think the world is all about America ^_- ??

Areku
30-06-04, 01:32
At the end, there is not much of a difference. Beheaded by Islamic extremists or having your face blown off by Coalition troops, you still end up dead which is whats important.
Both sides are commiting horrible acts of violence. Beheading a live human being is a cruel and inhumane way of executing somebody but what is equally cruel and inhumane is the murdering of civilians to bring peace or liberty or security or whatever reason the troops the fighting in Iraq have.


I would argue that there is much of a difference. War is more than just trying to kill your enemy, and the Geneva convention applies to it. There are guidelines we have to follow, as moral nations, in the conduct of war. Ie. no unneccesary suffering of the enemy, no torture, etc. A Coalition soldier shooting an Iraqi soldier in the head is humane, as far as the context of war goes. When you're in a situation where you're fighting another force, you have to shoot to kill and it's as fair as you can be in that situation. Likewise if you capture POW's, you have an obligation to treat them with some respect. Now, I know some coalition troops have broke this by 'torturing' iraqi soldiers, but firstly, these acts have been damned by our respective leaders, and the perpetrators prosecuted, but also in my eyes, it was hardly 'torture' anyway. It was humiliation, which is still wrong, but in a totally different field to torture.

Capturing someone, using them as blackmail and publically executing them is clearly unacceptable, compared to merely shooting someone in a battle situation.



So far, the USA and its allies are responsible for over 13,000 civilians deaths.


I can't really comment on that, as I don't know why that'd happen. Shooting recklessly? Maybe it's hard for them to tell who's an enemy and who's not.

But anyway, they all believe in god and stuff, so they'll be going to heaven... :balloon:



Now I am not saying that this justifies beheading prisoners, but I am saying that both sides have committed horrible acts of violence against humanity and that the longer the USA and its allies try to "rebuild" Iraq (which means cleaning up the horrible mess they made) the more people will be beheaded and the more civilians will be killed.

true.

Hachiko
30-06-04, 02:19
god why does everybody think the world is all about America ^_- ??

Because...America tried their best to make the world be like them. Ain't gonna work, no matter how hard the Government tries.

Golgo_13
30-06-04, 02:19
I wonder what's written in the Geneva Convention about the use of an atom bomb.

senseiman
30-06-04, 04:34
Firstly, our soldiers haven't kidnapped and held hostages, and then attempted to blackmail their government by showing them screaming and begging not to be killed.

Kidnapped? No. But the overwhelming majority of Iraqis held by coalition forces are innocent of any crime (60% according to the US military, 90% according to the red cross). They have just been 'swept up' (ie grabbed off the street) in big securtiy operations because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. There is no presumption of innocence or right to legal counsel, the troops can just grab whoever they want at any time, which is pretty much tantamount to kidnapping. Given the massive difference in scale (thousands vs. dozens) I would say that the coalition has little right to be taking the moral high ground.


Secondly, our TV stations wouldn't broadcast such videos to the public, cheering the terrorists on and generating just the effect they want. The fact they were shown on a legal TV channel is a perfect example of the difference between the UK/US and Iraq, and a perfect example of their primitive, backwards, religion-inspired culture. [

For starters, the only Iraqi TV channel is run by the Americans. Secondly, no TV channel has shown the images of people being executed, they have all cut the footage before the actual killings. Thirdly, pretty much all the US and European networks showed the EXACT SAME footage of the hostages as the Arab networks did. I'm afraid your ignorant racism and bigotry are not supported by the facts on this one, unless you are saying that Europe and the US are primitive, backwards, religion-inspired cultures too.


You already explained yourself how one is better than the other, there's a less than subtle difference between holding someone hostage and then brutally executing them and chanting the name of a nonexistent god, and gloating over an enemy soldier's corpse (put yourself in a front line soldiers shoes? I reckon I'd do it too), in fact it's a huge difference.

I said nothing of the sort. I used to be a soldier myself and I know that if I was in their shoes I would have been disgusted by what went on in those prisons. Those were not "front line soldiers", they were MPs (rear-echelon troops in military jargon) working in a fortified prison camp. They were not gloating over the corpses of Iraqis they had just killed in a tense firefight, they were gloating over the corpses of unarmed, bound and gagged Iraqis they had just beaten to death for their own sick pleasure. These gaurds were absolute scum of the earth and I make no distinction between them and the Al-quaida scum who cut the head off of that Korean contractor. Murderous scum is murderous scum. As for that nonexistant god, every American and British troops who prays to get out of that hellhole alive is praying to the same god.

Winter
30-06-04, 04:48
Well...with primitive I mean that these ppl don't even use common sense and just shoot everything on site that is "evil" in their opinion...they have no moral values...they just want to obtain their goal and do not care for other things, after all these years they still didn't develop to some kind of NICE warfare, but still use methods like decapitating and broadcast in on television..so that's what I think is primitive...

hey everybody has his own opinions, I didn't say you have to accept it so if you're offended by it...it because you chose to be!

I'm sorry, but you trying to make a point is like watching a monkey with a wristwatch.

But seriously, you should get a career in landscaping. You seem to be quite skilled in digging holes for yourself.

Okay, enough sarcasm, let me get some things straight. Are you referring to the freedom fighters in Iraq, or terrorist organisations like Al-Qaida?

Areku
30-06-04, 07:38
Kidnapped? No. But the overwhelming majority of Iraqis held by coalition forces are innocent of any crime (60% according to the US military, 90% according to the red cross). They have just been 'swept up' (ie grabbed off the street) in big securtiy operations because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. There is no presumption of innocence or right to legal counsel, the troops can just grab whoever they want at any time, which is pretty much tantamount to kidnapping. Given the massive difference in scale (thousands vs. dozens) I would say that the coalition has little right to be taking the moral high ground.
[/quote]

When you say 'held' what exactly do you mean? I bet it's a bit of a step away from being paraded around with blindfolds on, or told to read messages to your home country to try and get them to pull out of the country. Or being executed.




For starters, the only Iraqi TV channel is run by the Americans. Secondly, no TV channel has shown the images of people being executed, they have all cut the footage before the actual killings. Thirdly, pretty much all the US and European networks showed the EXACT SAME footage of the hostages as the Arab networks did. I'm afraid your ignorant racism and bigotry are not supported by the facts on this one, unless you are saying that Europe and the US are primitive, backwards, religion-inspired cultures too.

According to the last I heard from the news on TV here, there was a video shown on the TV.

If I'm wrong, then I apologise and take that back.

However, the mere fact that they show some of the tape with the terrorist's demands on it is cooperating with them anyway. They know very well that the rest of the world will see that part of the tapes and that many people in Iraq will cheer when they see it aswell.

Also, if it's true that they haven't shown the videos of the westerners being executed, yet are happy to show the deaths of Iraqis, it shows double standards on their part. They claim not to have shown the death of the Italian security guard because it was 'too gruesome' but I suspect the real reason is because he struggled to get his blindfold off, said something similiar to 'you want to kill an italian? I will show you how an italian dies...' to stare the terrorists in the eyes before they killed him.

Europe and the US aren't backward, religion-inspired cultures, on the whole (I can't say that for the Bible Belt) and this is evident from more than just what we show on TV. I fail to see the racism or bigotry. If I said 'all Iraqis are scum because they are Iraqi' then that would be racism.

The demand of "The Italian government should apologize in the name of its prime minister on Arabic news channels for all its actions against Islam and Muslims." made by the 'Mujahedeen Brigade' is good enough example of the difference in culture. Islam needs to be wiped off the face of the earth for humanity's sake.



I said nothing of the sort. I used to be a soldier myself and I know that if I was in their shoes I would have been disgusted by what went on in those prisons. Those were not "front line soldiers", they were MPs (rear-echelon troops in military jargon) working in a fortified prison camp. They were not gloating over the corpses of Iraqis they had just killed in a tense firefight, they were gloating over the corpses of unarmed, bound and gagged Iraqis they had just beaten to death for their own sick pleasure. These gaurds were absolute scum of the earth and I make no distinction between them and the Al-quaida scum who cut the head off of that Korean contractor. Murderous scum is murderous scum.

I meant that your own post was an explanation of the difference.

I'm aware that the first lot of pictures had REMF's in them but not the more recent ones. Still, I don't see the big deal over it. Unless you're telling me that the Iraqi's in the photos were innocent people. And I've yet to see any evidence of actual torture on UK TV/newspapers. How do you know they were beaten to death by those people?



As for that nonexistant god, every American and British troops who prays to get out of that hellhole alive is praying to the same god.

I doubt it, but nevermind.

Mandylion
30-06-04, 07:59
Let's keep this civil folks. Plenty of ways to express you think someone is off their rocker without harsh humor.

Also, due to problems in the past, do not bring the value of Islam as a belief system into this thread. Take it somewhere else.

Off-topic, insensitive posts will be edited or deleted.

Areku
30-06-04, 08:20
I think the values of Islam are relevant to a debate that discusses the actions/reasons in/for the war in a country against people who are fighting in it's name. The actual value of whether or not the diety exists has to be assumed as false, for the sake of logical discussion, but that's not really the issue.

but as you wish.

senseiman
30-06-04, 09:19
When you say 'held' what exactly do you mean? I bet it's a bit of a step away from being paraded around with blindfolds on, or told to read messages to your home country to try and get them to pull out of the country. Or being executed.

From the reports I've read, the conditions of detention in US facilities are truly abominable. It is a lot more than just humiliation (which is bad enough), beatings are a regular occurence and the US military is currently investigating the deaths of at least 37 prisoners at the hands of guards.






However, the mere fact that they show some of the tape with the terrorist's demands on it is cooperating with them anyway.

This makes no sense. Western news agencies are showing the exact same tapes with the exact same demands, does that mean they are cooperating with the terrorists too?


Also, if it's true that they haven't shown the videos of the westerners being executed, yet are happy to show the deaths of Iraqis, it shows double standards on their part. They claim not to have shown the death of the Italian security guard because it was 'too gruesome' but I suspect the real reason is because he struggled to get his blindfold off, said something similiar to 'you want to kill an italian? I will show you how an italian dies...' to stare the terrorists in the eyes before they killed him.

You can't have it both ways here. First you were saying that the fact that they showed western deaths proved they were sympathetic to the terrorists, now you are saying that the fact that they don't show the deaths of western hostages shows the same thing. Doesn't this strike you as being contradictory? And even if it weren't contradictory it still doesn't bear up under scrutiny because the Arab networks do report on western deaths (ie US soldiers killed in Iraq), they just decline to broadcast gruesome images (much like CNN, the BBC, FOX, CBS, etc did). Their (al Jazeera and Al arabiya, the two Arab satellite networks) standards are the exact same as those of western media outlets and I really think the argument that these stations are supporting terrorists is absolutely absurd. The bit about why the Italian hostage being executed wasn't aired is just nuts, western media outlets were given the same tape and they chose to censor it too, including networks that supported the war.


Europe and the US aren't backward, religion-inspired cultures, on the whole (I can't say that for the Bible Belt) and this is evident from more than just what we show on TV. I fail to see the racism or bigotry. If I said 'all Iraqis are scum because they are Iraqi' then that would be racism.

Well, lets look again at what you said,


...a perfect example of the difference between the US/UK and Iraq, and a perfect example of their primitive, backwards, religion-inspired culture.

Might not fit the textbook definition of racism, but it certainly sounds pretty bigoted to me. Blanket statements about how primitive other people's cultures are made by people who obviously have no idea what they are talking about certainly don't deserve any respect.


I'm aware that the first lot of pictures had REMF's in them but not the more recent ones. Still, I don't see the big deal over it. Unless you're telling me that the Iraqi's in the photos were innocent people. And I've yet to see any evidence of actual torture on UK TV/newspapers. How do you know they were beaten to death by those people?

So beating people to death is OK in your book? Well, I guess if you support genocide its not that big a deal by comparison. 37 prisoners have been killed by guards in US facilities. That figure doesn't include cases where guards were subduing dangerous prisoners or doing other things that fell within their rules. These are all being treated as homicides by the military.




I doubt it, but nevermind.

Not that it makes any difference, but Jews, Christians and Muslims all worship the same god. Look it up.

Mandylion
01-07-04, 03:02
Akeru - bringing in the values of some extreme Muslims in a discussion of motivation behind these terrorist acts is one thing.

Saying
Islam needs to be wiped off the face of the earth for humanity's sake.
is an irresponsible and off topic comment.

It does not belong on this forum. You are entitled to you opinion, but comments like yours have sent otherwise great threads off on tangents of name calling and ill-will. The Internet is full of sites where you can discuss these issues at great length and make as many broad and unsupported comments as you like.

This is not going to be one of them. I thank you in advance for reviewing our forum policy (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/rules.php) and if you wish to discuss this issue further, please feel free to PM me.

Sorry to those whose posts I had to edit. Futher off-topic posts will be summarily deleted.

RockLee
01-07-04, 03:52
@Winter: I mean with THEM --> terrorists, not freedom fighters, because they aren't freedom fighters...these ppl are primitive in my opinion because they don't keep themselves to the rules of the game(Geneva convention)...oh and please...keep your sarcasm to yourself ...or go in politics ;-) It's my opinion, and I told you allready that you don't have to agree with it...

Foxtrot Uniform
01-07-04, 18:25
@Winter: I mean with THEM --> terrorists, not freedom fighters, because they aren't freedom fighters...these ppl are primitive in my opinion because they don't keep themselves to the rules of the game(Geneva convention)

Wait a second - so according to your logic, America and its allies are also primitive because so far they haven't been keeping to the rules either. Thay have not been following the rules of the Geneva Convention, and nobody seems to really care!


1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.

To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:

(a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;

(b) Taking of hostages;

(c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment;

(d) The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.

According to clause 1 of article 3 of the Geneva convention, civilians are not supposed to be killed. Again, those 13,000 civilian casualties caused be America and its allies.

"outrages upon personal dignity"? The prisoners who were humiliated?

"Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture"? What about those 37 prisoners who were murdered?


Prisoners of war shall not in any case be transferred to penitentiary establishments (prisons, penitentiaries, convict prisons, etc.) to undergo disciplinary punishment therein.

All premises in which disciplinary punishments are undergone shall conform to the sanitary requirements set forth in Article 25. A prisoner of war undergoing punishment shall be enabled to keep himself in a state of cleanliness, in conformity with Article 29.

According to article 97 of the Geneva Convention, the prisoners that are being held on Guantanamo bay should not be punished there and they should at least be allowed to stay clean instead of being put in a tiny cage for weeks.

Now, according to the US, they arent POW because of some BS reason, but if you read article 4 of Part 1 of the Geneva Convention, you will see that they should be labeled as POW's.

They should also have the right be sentenced of their crime and a fair trial, but whats even worse is that many of the prisoners are non-combatants.

Genius
04-07-04, 06:34
i didnt see the korean beheading video and i dont think i want to. i did however see the american beheading video. i seriously felt like puking right there. how can you just saw off someones head with your knife and hold up a decapitated head to the camera. dont they even have at least a little respect for the person they just killed? dumb question, they live in a really twisted society.

ashuri2
04-07-04, 23:09
i didnt see the korean beheading video and i dont think i want to. i did however see the american beheading video. i seriously felt like puking right there. how can you just saw off someones head with your knife and hold up a decapitated head to the camera. dont they even have at least a little respect for the person they just killed? dumb question, they live in a really twisted society.

twisted? it's all relative. beheading is a traditional form of capital punishment in the middle east. some might ask how in americans can strap a man to a chair and run electric current through him until he dies in extreme agony. that seems only slightly less twisted. you also have to remember that not too long ago, in the american south people filmed lynchings and took pics and considered it all great fun.

RockLee
04-07-04, 23:14
yeah....people can be so cruel....look at the past :S....

bossel
05-07-04, 01:22
twisted? it's all relative. beheading is a traditional form of capital punishment in the middle east. some might ask how in americans can strap a man to a chair and run electric current through him until he dies in extreme agony. that seems only slightly less twisted. you also have to remember that not too long ago, in the american south people filmed lynchings and took pics and considered it all great fun.
I didn't watch any of these beheading videos, but if I'm correct, the guys were beheaded with knives (as Genius said, head "sawed off").
This is not the traditional form of decapitation. I think, it should be with one clear cut, usually with a sword.
Else, I agree.

Mandylion
05-07-04, 01:41
Kind of a grim aside, but from what I have read about historical seppuku (harakiri / when samurai killed themselves) cutting of a head cleanly is no easy task. It was considered a dishonor if you aided in seppuku and could not cut off the head in one go. The spine complicates things as it is in the way of making a clean cut, and it takes a great deal of power and a fair amount of skill. Things get a bit easier if you use a block and an ax as was popular in Europe, but the Middle East used/uses curved blades and no block-type accessories.

The terrorists had to saw into their victims probably because they lacked the ability to do otherwise. Plus it is more shocking, if such a thing can be more shocking.

Hachiko
05-07-04, 02:09
Oh, how can human life be cheapened to that of cattle...slaughtered like a lamb, was he. :auch: :okashii:

RockLee
05-07-04, 03:17
I saw a movie once also with a knife...snuff...man I almost puked my guts out...how can ppl put something like that on the net?? :( it's just sick !!