New thoughts on Indo-Europeans in the light of recent data

Trutharian, are your posts some kind of weird performance art thing? They certainly aren't grounded in reality.
 
Trutharian - Can you write you last statement in Italian? Julia or another member would easily tell if your truly Italian. I'm guessing not.
 
LeBrok said:
NO it is not. You claimed that white europeans are white because of Indian Albinism mutation of type 2. Again where is the proof of it?
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the proof is overhelming from first page to last its not my fault that you did not read it!

From haplogroup, language, albino genes through incest, migration etc
i explained all from page one till now so what are you missing?!

A miss is as good as a mile...
 
Aberdeen said:
Trutharian, are your posts some kind of weird performance art thing? They certainly aren't grounded in reality.
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again just void claims with no valid arguments against my provided facts...

ebAmerican said:
Trutharian - Can you write you last statement in Italian? Julia or another member would easily tell if your truly Italian. I'm guessing not.
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Mi stai prendendo in giro?
 
No, No, your previous comment in Italian, thanks.
 
Thanks I proved my point. It would be easy for an Italian. Good use of Google translate. Nothing you say holds merit.
 
trutharian said:
the proof is overhelming from first page to last its not my fault that you did not read it!
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Yes it is overwhelming for you, that's why your arguments are not presented well or coherent to be even called hypotheses.

- you can't prove that Albinism of type 2 is cause of white skin in europeans, even less than it came from India.
- you contradict archeology and historic records of population movements
- you contradict research and medical statistics on vitamin D3 in different climatic zones.
- you contradict dietary research and vitamin D3 consumption
- you don't see correlation and causation of climatic zones and skin pigmentation
- you ignore cultural aspect like cloths or sun tanning fashion of 60s to 80s, population movement and epidemic of skin cancer
- you fail to address valid critique of your hypotheses
- you blindly repeat and recycle your mantra, not to say ideology, bordering with racism
- you failed to prove your point, or points, instead posting random images of albinism or white mutations
- you argument with insults and not with facts
- you call north Europeans sick mutants, inbreeds, and still accusing them of racism

And we are the ones who don't get it?
 
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LeBrok said:
Yes it is overwhelming for you, that's why your arguments are not presented well or coherent to be even called hypotheses.

- you can't prove that Albinism of type 2 is cause of white skin in europeans, even less than it came from India.
- you contradict archeology and historic records of population movements
- you contradict research and medical statistics on vitamin D3 in different climatic zones.
- you contradict dietary research and vitamin D3 consumption
- you don't see correlation and causation of climatic zones and skin pigmentation
- you ignore cultural aspect like cloths or sun tanning fashion of 60s to 80s, population movement and epidemic of skin cancer
- you fail to address valid critique of you hypotheses
- you blindly repeat and recycle your mantra, not to say ideology, bordering with racism
- you failed to prove your point, or points, instead posting random images of albinism or white mutations
- your argument with insults and not with facts
- you call north europeans sick mutants and accusing them of racism

And we are the ones who don't get it?
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of course i contradict and debunk studies made by eurocentric indian albinos which try to manipulate history in their favor and even if i am myself european i search real truth not eurocentric nonsense!!! these official history made up by european albinos has the same validity as the commercial saying that "FLUORIDATED TOOTHPASTE IS HEALTHY"

if truth insults you then be it so its not my fault thats natures work
 
I did not think that the Caribbean and Florida were of tempered climate!?
It supports perfectly the sun, as in Egypt, Turkey, Tunisia where she was on vacation; albino does not support it, on the other hand as my daughter who is her mother she has a perfect view and we did not point out problems of eyes with the sun for those who have the clear eyes and no glasses except with age sometimes.
Can be we have a type, with many other people, gene was not listed in your catalogue.
Worry you, of the fact that they do not find the more brown person and that would support the sun less definitely and that on top of that would carry glasses and if it is not unique case, your theory would be to line up in the museum of tall stories.
 
Never heard this theory before, but will google as you suggest
and find out
 
trutharian said:
of course i contradict and debunk studies made by eurocentric indian albinos which try to manipulate history in their favor and even if i am myself european i search real truth not eurocentric nonsense!!! these official history made up by european albinos has the same validity as the commercial saying that "FLUORIDATED TOOTHPASTE IS HEALTHY"

if truth insults you then be it so its not my fault thats natures work
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Conspiracy theory show to the max. I wish we had Psychiatrist General of European Union number handy. This is freaking emergency!
 
trutharian,
have browsed thru realhistory link of yours.
Interesting to note that there is a very compelling evidence
there to make even a die hard skeptic go hmmmm..
 
ElHorsto said:
I don't think that contemporary skin color, lactase tolerance, hair color and other particular traits correlate that much with autosomals, at least within europe. I think these traits are mostly driven quickly by evolutionary selection or drift, even more than haplogroups. This can be seen at south europeans who live in northern europe. Half of them become as pale as the natives.
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are you not confusing basic genetic pigmentation potential with external pigmentation aspect linked to sun exposition? no evolution runs so quickly!
OK for your explanation concerning drift: it is almost sure it played a role - but in this thread we consider (for now) only a locus concerning potential lightening genes - but other mutations occurs on other loci (maybe localized very near, I do'nt know, scholars like keep some mystery) helping to acquire lighter skin...
very often I have the impression someones (not you personally) confuse the heavy lightening action of certains genes gvinig way to the "white" skin as poosed to "black" skin or "brown" skin, with the slight lightening actions of other genes that seem to me acting among 'europoids', and being linked to hair and eyes pigmentation and not only to skin pigmentation?
 
Anatolian chevalier said:
İ am from central anatolia its lie!! All isolated villiages in anatolia have green blue eyes some of them red hair our ancestor raped :( like iranians we also mixed arabs :((( central anatolian people have white skin sone of them brown we have brown hair not black we are tall people blonde hair green eyes common in isolated villiages
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sorry - always the old reaction to put the exception in the place of the rule!
I don't deny some anatolian people are fair or mixed hair and eyes coloured, but as a whole Anatolia is darker than the most of south-southern Europe, except Sardigna and Cyrpus, even if I know by a huge survey I red the body consitution of today Turcs is very variable, individually and by regions! on my some provinces show a litlle bit more fair pigmentation and it does not go very high!
red hairs and reddish ones were (last century begining) 0,5% (scholars) - I saw in my amateur "work" about 1% of blonds and about 15% of brown hairs -
scholars found 2% of blue eyes - but some western regions of Anatolia are a bit fairir it is true...(same problem: the large countries are not completely homogenous place to place)
the quality of dark hair is as a whole a bit lighter than what we find among Semitic populations (I don't speak about Jews here) and even sometimes among some mediterranean populations - as a hazard, this "light" quality of "black" hair seems again linked to mesocephally, or trend to brachycephally...
 
just for Turcs (sorry for the topic here): the emigrees in France seem as a whole more often dark than the national mean: very often it occurs when emigrees reach a new country: they are not always the average picture of their country of origin: differences in %s of regions of origin (the poorest ones)! (the same with Poles, Swedes, Italians in the USA
 
MOESAN said:
are you not confusing basic genetic pigmentation potential with external pigmentation aspect linked to sun exposition? no evolution runs so quickly!
OK for your explanation concerning drift: it is almost sure it played a role - but in this thread we consider (for now) only a locus concerning potential lightening genes - but other mutations occurs on other loci (maybe localized very near, I do'nt know, scholars like keep some mystery) helping to acquire lighter skin...
very often I have the impression someones (not you personally) confuse the heavy lightening action of certains genes gvinig way to the "white" skin as poosed to "black" skin or "brown" skin, with the slight lightening actions of other genes that seem to me acting among 'europoids', and being linked to hair and eyes pigmentation and not only to skin pigmentation?
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I hope I'm not intruding here, but I just wanted to mention that analysis of the effects of pigmentation genes does show a role for the minor snps. However, from studies on African Americans, they seem to function around the edges of the major actors, like SLC24A5 nd SLC45A2 and TYR. Even among those major players, there is still variation in Europe. Well, at least in terms of SLC45A2 and TYR, there is still variation.

Also, from looking at African Americans and the effect of only three hundred years of admixture on an even darker SSA pigmentation, I would say that such changes can happen rather quickly, and with far less than 50% admixture, and in the absence of an impact from environmental factors in combination with a need for Vitamin D.

So, I'll extend my bet with Greying Wanderer to you Moesan...if a European with pale skin and freckles shows up who does not carry the three major skin lightening genes, but only has some minor ones, the aperitif is on me. :)

(That said, I do take your point about the apparent quickness of this genetic sweep. If we assume SLC24A5 arose somewhere in the Near East and entered Europe perhaps with the Neolithic around 5,000 B.C., and that the SLC 42A5 mutation occurred around the same time in Europe, the period from this date to the first descriptions of northern Europeans (around say 1500 BC?) is about 3500 years.

Still, if LP persistence arose around 4500 BC?, and was extremely prevalent around 1000 A.D., we're talking about only 5500 years. Longer, I'll grant you, but not tens of thousands of years.)
 
Angela said:
I hope I'm not intruding here, but I just wanted to mention that analysis of the effects of pigmentation genes does show a role for the minor snps. However, from studies on African Americans, they seem to function around the edges of the major actors, like SLC24A5 nd SLC45A2 and TYR. Even among those major players, there is still variation in Europe. Well, at least in terms of SLC45A2 and TYR, there is still variation.

Also, from looking at African Americans and the effect of only three hundred years of admixture on an even darker SSA pigmentation, I would say that such changes can happen rather quickly, and with far less than 50% admixture, and in the absence of an impact from environmental factors in combination with a need for Vitamin D.

So, I'll extend my bet with Greying Wanderer to you Moesan...if a European with pale skin and freckles shows up who does not carry the three major skin lightening genes, but only has some minor ones, the aperitif is on me. :)

(That said, I do take your point about the apparent quickness of this genetic sweep. If we assume SLC24A5 arose somewhere in the Near East and entered Europe perhaps with the Neolithic around 5,000 B.C., and that the SLC 42A5 mutation occurred around the same time in Europe, the period from this date to the first descriptions of northern Europeans (around say 1500 BC?) is about 3500 years.

Still, if LP persistence arose around 4500 BC?, and was extremely prevalent around 1000 A.D., we're talking about only 5500 years. Longer, I'll grant you, but not tens of thousands of years.)
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I agree with your terms (for "black" Americans I don't know what mixture they put in this category so...) -
but concerning El Horsto, we are not speaking about (apparently) of thousands of years but of three generations (southern Europeans emigrated in northern Europe): it makes a big differences, didn' t it ? Or maybe El Horsto was speaking about La Brana descendants??? He only can precise us...
 
MOESAN said:
I agree with your terms (for "black" Americans I don't know what mixture they put in this category so...) -
but concerning El Horsto, we are not speaking about (apparently) of thousands of years but of three generations (southern Europeans emigrated in northern Europe): it makes a big differences, didn' t it ? Or maybe El Horsto was speaking about La Brana descendants??? He only can precise us...
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Pardon, I did not notice that you was responding to me.
So the following statement demands clarification then:
ElHorsto said:
This can be seen at south europeans who live in northern europe. Half of them become as pale as the natives.
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I'm sorry I was not more clear. Even I have trouble remembering what I wanted to say here. Well, I think my point was that there is a big proportion of south-europeans (maybe 50%?) which are not olive-skinned. These individuals seem to pale out (and some show freckles) to about the same degree (no scientific measurement here, just simple observation!) as many north-european natives if both live in northern latitude under sparse sunlight. I think this is one evidence that skin paleness has become somewhat independent (drift) from autosomal composition over time, regardless from which autosomal component it once originated.
 
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