Massive migration from the steppe is a source for Indo-European languages in Europe

[Angela]

It is the K16 figure which seems to be under discussion.
View attachment 7080
It is Corded Ware which shows the "orange" EEF like intrusion, which they likely picked up in their move west. There is no "orange" in the R1b Yamnaya people from the greater Samara region. Whether there will be some in the western or southwestern Yamnaya region remains to be seen, but I would assume that is probably the case, given the long documented contacts between those communities and western Samara. That has nothing to do with whether or not there is underlying similarity between EEF and the "Near Eastern" half of the Yamnaya. As I said in my prior post, I believe there will be overlap, with the major difference being WHG in EEF and ANE in the "Near Easterners". Time and more ancient genomes and more analysis will tell.

 

[Maciamo]

From page 6 - hotspots of Neolithic ancestry in Picardy and North-Eastern Ukraine ???:

This doesn't look like Neolithic ancestry but rather the Armenian-like component 5caucaso-Gedrosian) of Yamna. Neolithic admixture peaks in the southern Levant (Israel, Palestine, Jordan), which on this map is as low as, or lower than the European average.

It just looks like Haak et al. completely mistook in their assessment of Neolithic ancestry in 2010. The green region around Kurdistan and western Iran corresponds to what I consider the Neolithic homeland of R1b cattle herders, before they crossed the Caucasus to the Pontic-Caspian Steppe. It's not surprising that within Europe it should peak in southern Ukraine (Yamna core) then follow the migration path of R1b through the Carpathians, up the Danube to Germany, and into the Benelux, France and Italy. Non-Indo-European populations like the Basques, Sardinians, Sami, Siberian tribes, North African have very low levels of their admixture. This is also the case for other regions with low R1b like Bosnia-Serbia-Albania, the Arabian peninsula, or even the central Alps (a known refuge for the Neolithic population after the IE invasions).

 

[holderlin]

I hope everyone on this site realizes how weird they are

 

[holderlin]

I was at a Christmas party years back, with family, and there was this one step cousin who had a Chinese girlfriend with freckles. We all got to talking, everyone was drinking a lot, and someone mentioned her freckles. So of course I blurt out "Yeah, yeah you look more like an Altaic Steppe Nomad, maybe with a bit of Iranian, than a Han Chinese." There wasn't really an awkward moment at the time, people just commented on how fair she was and the conversation meandered.

But the next day at breakfast people were talking about how they didn't like freckled Chinese girl and they say "..she HATED you" to me. My brother in law starts laughing, and goes "....what did you call her?......what did you say?...." then he blurts out "Steppe Nomad" and the entire table of people erupts into hilarity.

And I thought I was complimenting her.

 

[Maciamo]

Definitely not Gedrosia. Gedrosia came late (Bronze Age) from East side of Caspian Sea. It came on South side of Caspian. This map shows how it flows from lower right corner and diminishes towards Balkans. It didn't have epicenter in Near East, not even existed there during Neolithic. It is a latecomer.
Caucasian admixture was hiding in Caucasus till Bronze Age too.
Yamnaya received mostly Caucasian admixture, some West Asian, and no Gedrosia.

There is no Gedrosia in half of Yamnaya and Corded Ware territory. Gedrosia in Western Europe corresponds to R1b IE invasion, through Near East.

I am still convinced that Yamna R1b people brought the Gedrosian admixture to Europe, and that before living in the steppe they came from what is now Kurdistan, a hotspot on the Gedrosia map.

The reason that Slavic countries lack the Gedrosian admixture is that they descend mostly from the Corded Ware culture, who were relatively pure R1a and didn't have that Gedrosian admixture. R1a people re-expanded several times to the Yamna territory from the Catacomb culture to the Slavic expansion, progressively depleting the region from the Yamna genes.

We could know if I am right by running the Yamna samples in the Dodecad K12b and see how much Gedrosian they have, once (or if) the autosomal data gets published.

 

[Maciamo]

It is the K16 figure which seems to be under discussion.
View attachment 7080
It is Corded Ware which shows the "orange" EEF like intrusion, which they likely picked up in their move west. There is no "orange" in the R1b Yamnaya people from the greater Samara region. Whether there will be some in the western or southwestern Yamnaya region remains to be seen, but I would assume that is probably the case, given the long documented contacts between those communities and western Samara. That has nothing to do with whether or not there is underlying similarity between EEF and the "Near Eastern" half of the Yamnaya. As I said in my prior post, I believe there will be overlap, with the major difference being WHG in EEF and ANE in the "Near Easterners". Time and more ancient genomes and more analysis will tell.

What surprises me in this paper is the complete absence of EEF admixture in the Yamna samples tested. That could mean two things:

A) It wasn't G2a3b1, J2b2 and T1a1a people from the Balkans/Carpathians who brought copper metallurgy to the steppes (Sredny Stog, Khvalinsk, etc.), as I thought.

B) It was them, but they hadn't mixed with the few R1b-Z2103 individuals tested from the Volga-Ural region. After all population blending takes many centuries or millennia before affecting the genetic admixture of all the individuals in the population. I would therefore expect to find other individuals who are hybridized, and even individuals who are mostly EEF (with some WHG or EHG) among future Yamna samples. Those EEF-dominant samples would surely belong to G2a3b1, J2b2 or T1a1a (perhaps even some E-V13 and I2a).

It's always important to keep in mind that with DNA a few samples aren't always representative of all the people who lived in a region/culture at a given time. It is especially true in periods of migrations, when new people had just arrived in a region and hadn't had time to mix with indigenous people. Imagine testing the DNA of the person person you mean in London or Paris today and think that that individual necessarily represent a typical English or French genome. Of course the person sampled could be a recent immigrant, or half-local, half-immigrant. It's the same with Yamna, Corded Ware, Bell Beaker, Unetice, etc. New people just moved in. How can we be sure they are locals or immigrants ? Usually we can guess from the style of the artefacts in their tomb. But what if the origins of the culture are unclear, like the Bell Beaker or Yamna ? Who brought the Copper/Bronze Age to the steppes ? Caucasian people ? West Asians ? Balkanic people ? Was it developed by autochthons ?


Another observations is that the Malta-1 sample was predominantly EHG and Armenian-like (with some EEF and many minor admixtures) in all Ks except K=20. This suggest the dual Yamna admixture was not dual at all, but that there were R1 people were originally like Yamna, and not like the Samara and Karelia hunter-gatherers. This completely reverses the table. It wouldn't be the Mesolithic R1a-M417 and R1b-P297 samples who are pure, but rather so admixed with indigenous Northeast European women that they lost their original admixture, a bit like the N1c1 Lithuanians and Latvians today who do not have any trace of East Asian ancestry anymore.

 

[Angela]

I hope everyone on this site realizes how weird they are

All the rudeness, boorishness and ad hominem attacks in the world won't change the fact that Maciamo and other posters here were right in many of their predictions, unlike people from other blogs. Whatever happened to R1b is definitely not Indo-European?

You also don't seem to understand that you are a guest here. Whether or not you care, this isn't civilized behavior. You do no credit to either yourself or your people when you behave in this way.

 

[holderlin]

All the rudeness, boorishness and ad hominem attacks in the world won't change the fact that Maciamo and other posters here were right in many of their predictions, unlike people from other blogs. Whatever happened to R1b is definitely not Indo-European?

This response to my joke makes absolutely no sense. I don't even know what you're talking about

You also don't seem to understand that you are a guest here. Whether or not you care, this isn't civilized behavior. You do no credit to either yourself or your people when you behave in this way.

And I think this is a bit over dramatic. I'm not attacking anyone. I'm poking fun at a bunch of nerds, of which I am a part, who are obsessed with a weird intellectual niche. Did you read my post immediately following the one you quoted?

 

[Angela]

This response to my joke makes absolutely no sense. I don't even know what you're talking about



And I think this is a bit over dramatic. I'm not attacking anyone. I'm poking fun at a bunch of nerds, of which I am a part, who are obsessed with a weird intellectual niche. Did you read my post immediately following the one you quoted?

There was no context to your comment, and this is the internet, not a face to face conversation. Have you ever heard of the use of emoticons to transmit "tone"? Personally, I'm not accustomed to calling people "weird" because they're passionate about certain intellectual pursuits, but perhaps that's how you talk in your circles, so I'll accept that it was meant to be humorous. As to your second post, I've just read it. I take it that you meant that calling someone "weird" in this context is a complement.

Actually, I don't actually find an interest in this subject "weird". What I find "weird" are the motivations and agendas which often seem to drive this interest.

In the interests of collegiality perhaps you would care to explain your disagreement with post number 319.

 

[Ukko]

What surprises me in this paper is the complete absence of EEF admixture in the Yamna samples tested. That could mean two things:

A) It wasn't G2a3b1, J2b2 and T1a1a people from the Balkans/Carpathians who brought copper metallurgy to the steppes (Sredny Stog, Khvalinsk, etc.), as I thought.

B) It was them, but they hadn't mixed with the few R1b-Z2103 individuals tested from the Volga-Ural region. After all population blending takes many centuries or millennia before affecting the genetic admixture of all the individuals in the population. I would therefore expect to find other individuals who are hybridized, and even individuals who are mostly EEF (with some WHG or EHG) among future Yamna samples. Those EEF-dominant samples would surely belong to G2a3b1, J2b2 or T1a1a (perhaps even some E-V13 and I2a).

It's always important to keep in mind that with DNA a few samples aren't always representative of all the people who lived in a region/culture at a given time. It is especially true in periods of migrations, when new people had just arrived in a region and hadn't had time to mix with indigenous people. Imagine testing the DNA of the person person you mean in London or Paris today and think that that individual necessarily represent a typical English or French genome. Of course the person sampled could be a recent immigrant, or half-local, half-immigrant. It's the same with Yamna, Corded Ware, Bell Beaker, Unetice, etc. New people just moved in. How can we be sure they are locals or immigrants ? Usually we can guess from the style of the artefacts in their tomb. But what if the origins of the culture are unclear, like the Bell Beaker or Yamna ? Who brought the Copper/Bronze Age to the steppes ? Caucasian people ? West Asians ? Balkanic people ? Was it developed by autochthons ?


Another observations is that the Malta-1 sample was predominantly EHG and Armenian-like (with some EEF and many minor admixtures) in all Ks except K=20. This suggest the dual Yamna admixture was not dual at all, but that there were R1 people were originally like Yamna, and not like the Samara and Karelia hunter-gatherers. This completely reverses the table. It wouldn't be the Mesolithic R1a-M417 and R1b-P297 samples who are pure, but rather so admixed with indigenous Northeast European women that they lost their original admixture, a bit like the N1c1 Lithuanians and Latvians today who do not have any trace of East Asian ancestry anymore.

N1c1 and Uralic is not an candidate?

 

[Tomenable]

Is most of R1b among the Basques descended from that Pre-Indo-European Neolithic Spanish R1b ???

Check:

I0410 (Spain_EN)
We determined that this individual belonged to haplogroup R1b1 (M415:9170545C→A), with upstream haplogroup R1b (M343:2887824C→A) also supported. However, the individual was ancestral for R1b1a1 (M478:23444054T→C), R1b1a2 (PF6399:2668456C→T, L265:8149348A→G, L150.1:10008791C→T and M269:22739367T→C), R1b1c2 (V35:6812012T→A), and R1b1c3 (V69:18099054C→T), and could thus be designated R1b1*(xR1b1a1, R1b1a2, R1b1c2, R1b1c3). The occurrence of a basal form of haplogroup R1b1 in both western Europe and R1b1a in eastern Europe (I0124 hunter-gatherer from Samara) complicates the interpretation of the origin of this lineage. We are not aware of any other western European R1b lineages reported in the literature before the Bell Beaker period (ref. 2 and this study). It is possible that either (i) the Early Neolithic Spanish individual was a descendant of a Neolithic migrant from the Near East that introduced this lineage to western Europe, or (ii) there was a very sparse distribution of haplogroup R1b in [Western] European hunter-gatherers and early farmers, so the lack of its detection in the published literature may reflect its occurrence at very low frequency. The occurrence of a basal form of R1b1 in western Europe logically raises the possibility that presentday western Europeans (who belong predominantly to haplogroup R1b1a2-M269) may trace their origin to early Neolithic farmers of western Europe. However, we think this is not likely given the existence of R1b1a2-M269 not only in western Europe but also in the Near East; such a distribution implies migrations of M269 males from western Europe to the Near East which do not seem archaeologically plausible. We prefer the explanation that R-M269 originated in the eastern end of its distribution, given its first appearance in the Yamnaya males (below) and in the Near East17.

And also:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/

Interestingly, all seven of the Yamnaya males sampled by Haak et al., mostly from the Samara Valley on the Ural steppe, belong to R1b-M269, the most common subclade of R1b today. However, five belong to the West Asian-specific R1b-Z1203, but none to the West European-specific R1b-M412. Also, all nine Yamnaya samples show Near Eastern admixture, described in the paper as Armenian-like.

Yamnaya subclades:

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml

R1b1a2a2*
R1b1a
R1b1a2a2
R1b1a2a*
R1b1a2a2
R1b1a2a2*
R1b1a2a2*

 

[Angela]

This is the complete graphic from Haak et al 2010, which only concerns mtDna:

The map on the left shows the genetic distances to modern populations for all of their 42 mtDna samples (which in addition are only from the early Neolithic LBK). The map on the right shows the genetic distances for only the Derenberg sample. Obviously, comparisons using the samples from one single site are not as informative as comparisons using the compilation of all the samples from that particular culture. If this were repeated with all the mtDna sequences from all of the pre-Yamnaya appearance Neolithic samples in Europe it would be even more informative. Then, we have to remember that Yamnaya brought some EHG mtDna along with it, and there were still migration movements further on into history, including migrations with ancestry from northern Baltic refugia and from Uralic speaking areas. All of those things would affect modern distributions. It has nothing to do with yDna obviously.

It seems to me that this graphic shows that the "Neolithic" or "farmer" mtDna is correlated with Anatolia/northern Syria and the area just to the south of the Caucasus, which is what I've been talking about for the last couple of days. The mtDna and thus some part of the autosomal admixture in "EEF" and "Near Eastern" is similar. There is far less of this mtDna signature off to the east. That might indicate that the people who contributed the "Near Eastern" portion of Yamnaya came from south of the Caucasus, possibly moving up the narrow passage along the eastern side of the Caspian, or, if they came up the other side of the Caspian their mtDna signature is no longer dominant there. Perhaps someone very familiar with that part of the world can further elucidate this for us.

 

[holderlin]

There was no context to your comment, and this is the internet, not a face to face conversation. Have you ever heard of the use of emoticons to transmit "tone"? Personally, I'm not accustomed to calling people "weird" because they're passionate about certain intellectual pursuits, but perhaps that's how you talk in your circles, so I'll accept that it was meant to be humorous.

Yes

As to your second post, I've just read it. I take it that you meant that calling someone "weird" in this context is a complement.

Kinda

Actually, I don't actually find an interest in this subject "weird". What I find "weird" are the motivations and agendas which often seem to drive this interest.

Bingo

In the interests of collegiality perhaps you would care to explain your disagreement with post number 319.

You must mean how I accidentally clicked on the "no not helpful" button. Just an accident. I agreed with that post.

 

[LeBrok]

do you mean, Yamaya people got EEF (orange) admixture from Cucuteni before getting into Europe ?

Yes, but only in West Yamnaya. It is not present in East Yamnaya where R1b samples come from.

 

[LeBrok]

I am still convinced that Yamna R1b people brought the Gedrosian admixture to Europe, and that before living in the steppe they came from what is now Kurdistan, a hotspot on the Gedrosia map.

The reason that Slavic countries lack the Gedrosian admixture is that they descend mostly from the Corded Ware culture, who were relatively pure R1a and didn't have that Gedrosian admixture. R1a people re-expanded several times to the Yamna territory from the Catacomb culture to the Slavic expansion, progressively depleting the region from the Yamna genes.

We could know if I am right by running the Yamna samples in the Dodecad K12b and see how much Gedrosian they have, once (or if) the autosomal data gets published.

Well, we have the one R1b HG full of EHG admixture and nothing Armenian, before Yamnaya R1b showed up with half Armenian. It is more likely that Caucasian and Gedrosian admixture came to them by others, Mykop women. There is still a possibility that they indeed came from Kurdistan. However, if they came from lands filled with Near Eastern Farmers, why they had only R1b? At this time period it is hard to find any farming community in Europe to be so Y hg homogenous. It is unlikely that in Near East was different. In most known cases, the farmers move into HGs area and not vice versa, and mix heavily.
I hope they publish the full genome, and some mystery will be solved.

I think the dark green in Yamnaya is Caucasian admixture only, which is a mixture of ENF with Kostenki/Ancient Caucasian admixture. I think that R1b went around Caspian Sea to Kurdistan area and this is where they've picked up Gedrosia, or perhaps from east side of Caspian, before moving to Europe. We'll see.

 

[LeBrok]

i don't see any orange in yamnaya, only blue and green

Orange is in Corded Ware who were related to Yamnaya. West Yamnaya where samples were tested didn't have it, but I'm sure it must have been present in West Yamnaya (untested), the closer to Cucuteni the more orange.

but on the PCA both orange and green cause a shift toward the right hand side

If we assume that Yamnaya R1bs come from Samara HG R1b (the starting point), then you'll see that Yamnaya guys were pulled straight East, not South, towards Kostenki and Caucasian folks. You can draw a straight line from EHG to Caucasus/Kostenki, and in the middle of this line you'll see Yamnaya guys. EEF/European Neolithic would pull them more South than East.
If we have samples from West Late Yamnaya we should see them on the PCA very close to Corded Ware, or I eat the crow.

 

[LeBrok]

@Lebrok


Reich called it a component characteristic for populations of "Caucasus and South_Central Asia".

It is characteristic now but it wasn't till Bronze Age when these two components finally mixed together.

This is definitely Caucasus_Gedrosia and more so Gedrosia. Gedrosia peaks in the Baloch groups who live in Southwestern Asia and are known to have hailed from Zagros/Northern Mesopotamia.

I think you might have confused something. "Caucasus, Gedrosia and West Asian" are not three different components. from your statement it appears like you think that way.
"West Asian" of Dodecad is "Caucasus_Gedrosia", in fact Gedrosia is more "West Asian" than Caucasus.

I didn't know that, thanks for explaining. Actually I'm glad it turned this way. Now I know why West Asian correlated with Yamnaya a bit. It was the Caucasian admixture in it. Now it makes things simpler.

I don't think Gedrosia was in Neolithic mix in Near East, because:
- it is not in EEF farmers, and we know where they came from.
- it is not present in East Europe these days, however we have elevated level of Caucasian throughout East Europe.
- If it was one/well mixed component by Bronze Age, the Yamnaya would have gotten it together and spread together through Eastern Europe. When we look at these two admixture maps of Eastern Europe they don't match at all. Caucasian is present at 10-20% level, Gedrosia is 0 or close to zero percent. It is not the way the united component of West Asian should work. On other hand Western Europe has Gedrosia and Caucasus at about 10% level. IE R1b folks came from location where these two admixtures were about even.
- How is it possible that Corded Ware and Unetice had 1/3 of gedrosia, but it is completely gone from this area, except in countries with high level of R1b?

We should have 3 major admixtures in Middle East.
- ENF from Fertile Crescent
- Caucasian hunter gatherer turned farmer by Bronze Age, hiding in Caucasus till Late Neolithic and Bronze Age.
- Gedrosian hunter gatherer hiding at East side of Caspian Sea till Bronze Age.

And the West Asian component itself is ~58% Gedrosia and 42% Caucasus.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-iN1EuOd52c4/UE3TT7Ka_kI/AAAAAAAAGWQ/fy53d30H2m0/s400/_12.png

Even more wierd that Caucasus admixture exists in Eastern Europe without Gedrosia. It wouldn't be the case if it was one united element spreading together from Bronze Age.

 

[Maciamo]

N1c1 and Uralic is not an candidate?

Of course not. There was no copper metallurgy is Northeast Europe or the Urals before Yamna.

 

[Maciamo]

Is most of R1b among the Basques descended from that Pre-Indo-European Neolithic Spanish R1b ???

It is phylogenetically impossible that the Basque descend from the R1b1* from Neolithic Spain because the Basque belong to the Celtic P312 clade. They would have needed to accumulate exactly the same mutations as the M269 branch starting from P25. There are already 45 mutations separating R1b1* (P25) from R1b1a2 (M269) as you can see in the R1b phylogeny. After that there are 8 more mutations to P312 and 11 mutations more to reach the Basque M153. We you know that there is one chance in 60 million that two individuals are born with the same mutation on the Y chromosome (which has 60 million characters) the chances that two separate lineages acquire exactly the same 64 mutations in a row is so astronomical as to be unfathomable by the human mind (imagine a number followed by hundreds of zeros).

Therefore we can say with close to 100% certainty (limit towards infinity of 100%) that not a single R1b-M269 descends from the Spanish Neolithic sample.

By the way, Yfull.com gives an age of 15000 years for the formation of R1b-M153 and a TMRCA of 1300 years. This means that the common R1b patrilineal ancestors of about half of Basque R1b men only lived around 700 CE, during the Early Middle Ages, around the time of the Moorish conquest of Iberia. This means that if we tested Basque sample from 2000, 3000 or 4000 years ago, there is a high probability that the majority of samples wouldn't be R1b (but probably in majority I2a1). The replacement of Basque paternal lineages by R1b lineages is very recent.

It's also interesting to see that most of the Catalan R1b-SRY2627 (mostly the Z206 and CTS606 subclades) have a TMRCA of 2700 to 3500 years, meaning that R1b spread in the region in the Late Bronze Age and Iron Age, when most of Western Europe outside Iberia was already Celtic.

 

[Maciamo]

Well, we have the one R1b HG full of EHG admixture and nothing Armenian, before Yamnaya R1b showed up with half Armenian. It is more likely that Caucasian and Gedrosian admixture came to them by others, Mykop women. There is still a possibility that they indeed came from Kurdistan. However, if they came from lands filled with Near Eastern Farmers, why they had only R1b? At this time period it is hard to find any farming community in Europe to be so Y hg homogenous. It is unlikely that in Near East was different. In most known cases, the farmers move into HGs area and not vice versa, and mix heavily.
I hope they publish the full genome, and some mystery will be solved.

I think the dark green in Yamnaya is Caucasian admixture only, which is a mixture of ENF with Kostenki/Ancient Caucasian admixture. I think that R1b went around Caspian Sea to Kurdistan area and this is where they've picked up Gedrosia, or perhaps from east side of Caspian, before moving to Europe. We'll see.

What you say is possible, and what I used to believe too. But I am not so sure anymore. Yfull.com gives an age of 15900 ybp for R1b-P297 and 15100 ybp for M269 (although the TMRCA of surviving lineages is only 12200 ybp). The HG sample from Samara is only 5000 years old, which means that R1b-P297 lineages had already existed and wandered around Europe and West Asia for over 10,000 years. I know it is tempting to think that because the P297 and M269 samples were tested in the same region at a similar period (some M269 samples are actually older than the P297), the two must be closely related. But that is not necessarily the case, and autosomal DNA shows that they are only distantly related.

I would rather think that the Samara P297 belonged to a branch of R1b that had migrated to Northeast Europe many thousands of years before Yamna, surely before the Early Neolithic and cattle domestication, while the Yamna R1b hailed from the Caucasus region (not because of the Armenian-like admixture, but because of they were cattle herders with copper/bronze technology).