DNA of Iberians from Europe

Are you sure that map is correct?

Maciamo recently uploaded a new version.

Germanic_Europe.gif


http://eupedia.com/forum/threads/28866-Map-of-Germanic-paternal-lineages
 
Johannes said:
I will agree that after the goths arrived in SW France they numbered 150,000 because they had fought many battles and lost a lot of men. But then you take into consideration that the Goths lived more or less in peace for 300 years their numbers must have increased. History teaches us that the people who conquer other people get the best land and multiply faster than the conquered. We need to include the numbers of the Swabians as well. thus together they must have doubled their numbers by the time the Muslims arrived. Dont trust Spanish historians. They are third rate. Read the English and better the Germans. I never understood why Spaniards have ignored the Germanics in Iberia (probably because they were liberal and hated Franco and his Fascists??)
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Goths didn't live in peace for 300 years. They were fighting against Romans, Franks, Byzantines, Vandals, Basques, even between themselves. They were all but peaceful.

Johannes said:
Those figures for the Ibero-Romans are grossly inaccurate. When you take into consideration the economic depression, wars, famines, people leaving the cities for the country, and the dramatic decrease of population during the end of the Roman Empire, t would have been impossible to feed that many people at that time. Population figures during the 5th century were very low. Western Europe was basically depopulated. Dont use Spanish sources. Try reading English versions.

You think that people during those times mixed like they do today? Sure all the Goths will mix with the population they ruled! You are so funny!
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Iberia wasn't touched by Barbarian invasions until the 5th centudy AD, whereas other imperial territories like Italy, the Balkans, the Levant... had to endure centuries of foreign invasions and raids. Italy and the Balkans were devastated by Magyars, Avars, Huns, etc...
 
Vukodav said:
Iberia wasn't untouched by Barbarian invasion untill the 5th centudy AD, whereas other imperial territories like Italy, the Balkans, the Levant... had the endure centuries of foreign invasions and raids. Italy and the Balkans were devastated by Magyars, Avars, Huns, etc...
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Don't forget Slavs and Goths.
 
Hauteville said:
Ok thanks.
It's still extremely minimal the Visigoth heritage there.
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I dont think this map is correct. Maybe Maciamo should wait for more people to be tested in Castlie, Asturias, and Extremadura. Either way it does reflect at lest somewhat I have been arguing. Its certainly not 1%. It shows between 1% to 10% but I bet its more than that.
 
Drac II said:
That's just some WikiPedia article written by who-knows-who and it does not seem to offer any references for such Roman-era estimates. Plus there's huge gaps of hundreds of years between them. And also all of them are for the centuries AD.
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Dont be so arrogant. Look and read the article. Its says quite clearly at the end of the article were they got their sources. Its in Spanish but they are not trying to swindle the reader.
 
Hauteville said:
Notice the incongruence of them: zero moorish, jewish of punic blood but a lot of celts and goths. Yes sure.
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Iberians always inflate their Celtic/Visigothic ancestry and negate all Phoenician/Arabic/Jewish heritage (I wonder if they don't think anyone notices this bias?). To claim that the Goths left a significant genetic mark in Iberia while claiming that the Moors (who ruled the peninsula for much longer) left none or close to none is just ridiculous. If Iberians overstated both of these influences, or minimized both, it would be alright, no one would say a word.
 
Degredado said:
Iberians always inflate their Celtic/Visigothic ancestry and negate all Phoenician/Arabic/Jewish heritage (I wonder if they don't think anyone notices this bias?). To claim that the Goths left a significant genetic mark in Iberia while claiming that the Moors (who ruled the peninsula for much longer) left none or close to none is just ridiculous. If Iberians overstated both of these influences, or minimized both, it would be alright, no one would say a word.
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You nailed it!
 
Vukodav said:
No the author says they were less than 130-150.000.

"Como conclusión podemos decir que no existe ningún dato estadísticofiable, pero que, aún siendo todos ellos hipotéticos, permiten creerque el número de pobladores visigodos de la Península Ibérica no superóla cifra total de 130.000 o 150.000 individuos."

Regarding the total number of Hispano Romans read pp 392

"El mismo historiador, considera más verosímilun número aproximado de 200.000 visigodos frente a unos ocho o nuevemillones de hispanorromanos. Por el contrario García Gallo, eleva mucho más el número de hispanorromanos y los calcula en unos docemillones "

There were between 8-12 million of Hispano Romans, so they made up about 1-2% of the poplation.

More than half of those Goths were probably assimilated Southern French, since only 70-90.000 Goths were living in France before migrating to Iberia.

"En el momento en que los visigodos consiguen el tratado de instalaciónen la Gallia en el año 418, su número oscila entre unas 50.000 y100.000 personas. Esto representaría una cifra aproximada de 70.000 a90.000 individuos visigodos en el territorio peninsular hispánico duranteel siglo VI, teniendo en cuenta que un cierto número de familias se quedaríaen el territorio aquitano y sin tomar en consideración aquellos quesiguieron habitando en la Narbonense."
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You need to brush up on your Spanish. The author is saying that the total number of Goths did not go beyond the 150,000 figure, it does not necessarily mean that they were not 150,000. Translation of what she says:

"As a conclusion we can say that there does not exist any reliable statistic data, but that, even though all of them are hypothetical, they allow us to think that the number of Visigothic inhabitants of the Iberian Peninsula did not go beyond 130,000 or 150,000 individuals."

She is accepting the 130,000 to 150,000 estimate as plausible, just not more than that. And she is only citing someone else's calculations for the total population of Iberia, she is not necessarily endorsing it. She remains silent about her own conclusions on this topic. She cites several figures from different historians. The author I cited earlier says that the more usual estimate is 6 million inhabitants.
 
Degredado said:
Iberians always inflate their Celtic/Visigothic ancestry and negate all Phoenician/Arabic/Jewish heritage (I wonder if they don't think anyone notices this bias?). To claim that the Goths left a significant genetic mark in Iberia while claiming that the Moors (who ruled the peninsula for much longer) left none or close to none is just ridiculous. If Iberians overstated both of these influences, or minimized both, it would be alright, no one would say a word.
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Funny how you are always in these threads trying to vent your issues about "Iberians". We have established that the person trying to inflate the influence of both Visigoths and Romans in Iberia in this thread is not from Iberia but an American, so you can stop projecting your own issues on "Iberians".
 
Hauteville said:
Notice the incongruence of them: zero moorish, jewish of punic blood but a lot of celts and goths. Yes sure.
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Strange and ironic comment, coming from someone who actually tries to do just that with his own country.
 
Johannes said:
Dont be so arrogant. Look and read the article. Its says quite clearly at the end of the article were they got their sources. Its in Spanish but they are not trying to swindle the reader.
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Where does that Wiki article cite any references regarding the population of Iberia during Roman times? The source I cited for the 6 million figure is straight from a book published by Cambridge University.
 
Degredado said:
Iberians always inflate their Celtic/Visigothic ancestry and negate all Phoenician/Arabic/Jewish heritage (I wonder if they don't think anyone notices this bias?). To claim that the Goths left a significant genetic mark in Iberia while claiming that the Moors (who ruled the peninsula for much longer) left none or close to none is just ridiculous. If Iberians overstated both of these influences, or minimized both, it would be alright, no one would say a word.
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I dont know who you are talking about but I am not "Iberian." And I never claimed the Goths left any significant DNA. Do you think 5-10% is significant? Who said the Moors left no DNA??? I never said anything of what you accuse. You are the one who seems to have a bias against the so-called "Iberians" and its clear that you know very little about the subject as well.
 
Degredado said:
Iberians always inflate their Celtic/Visigothic ancestry and negate all Phoenician/Arabic/Jewish heritage (I wonder if they don't think anyone notices this bias?). To claim that the Goths left a significant genetic mark in Iberia while claiming that the Moors (who ruled the peninsula for much longer) left none or close to none is just ridiculous. If Iberians overstated both of these influences, or minimized both, it would be alright, no one would say a word.
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I just noticed you have Iberian DNA on both sides (R1b DF27 and U5). You are a funny fellow to make such ridiculous claims against your own kind.
 
Drac II said:
Where does that Wiki article cite any references regarding the population of Iberia during Roman times? The source I cited for the 6 million figure is straight from a book published by Cambridge University.
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Anybody can publish any book from any publishing company and it does not mean they are accurate. So what if its from Cambridge??? Where does he get the source?
 
Hauteville said:
Notice the incongruence of them: zero moorish, jewish of punic blood but a lot of celts and goths. Yes sure.
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I can tell from your comment that you have some issues and bias against "Iberians." But I am not sure to whom you are talking about. As for Moorish/Semitic DNA its certainly not zero and who ever said it is ignorant. However, its not significant. As for the Celts: any one with a brain in his head can see that its significant. Iberia has 60-80% R1b my friend and most of it is R1b DF 27. That is a Basque-Celtic marker. Dont you think its significant??? and we are not counting the Germanic DNA that is also R1b.

By the way I started this post to see if anyone could help me resolve the mystery of the Iberians who could have brought the R1b P-312, which in turn created R1b DF27. So far I see nothing.
 
Johannes said:
Anybody can publish any book from any publishing company and it does not mean they are accurate. So what if its from Cambridge??? Where does he get the source?
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Cambridge University is not in the habit of letting just about "anybody" publish books and articles using their name. They only publish studies by academics. The historian in question is referring to a general consensus about the total population of Iberia during Roman times.
 
Drac II said:
You need to brush up on your Spanish. The author is saying that the total number of Goths did not go beyond the 150,000 figure, it does not necessarily mean that they were not 150,000. Translation of what she says:

"As a conclusion we can say that there does not exist any reliable statistic data, but that, even though all of them are hypothetical, they allow us to think that the number of Visigothic inhabitants of the Iberian Peninsula did not go beyond 130,000 or 150,000 individuals."

She is accepting the 130,000 to 150,000 estimate as plausible, just not more than that. And she is only citing someone else's calculations for the total population of Iberia, she is not necessarily endorsing it. She remains silent about her own conclusions on this topic. She cites several figures from different historians. The author I cited earlier says that the more usual estimate is 6 million inhabitants.
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Yes you are right: I need to improve my Spanish. But thanks for the translation. It makes it easier for me to understand. So I am also willing to accept 150,000 but they must have increased their numbers given that in 300 years they dont just stop having children. Historians tell us that the Roman Emperors wanted to put the Germans as far away from Italy as possible and they gave the Goths the best lands in SW France and Iberia. Eventually the Goths left SW France and moved into Iberia. The Goths also defeated the Swabians in Galicia. So it goes against common sense that their number stagnated or even declined so that the Goths disappeared form the earth. Look at what happened in England. The Anglo-Saxon numbered somewhat similar to the Goths and Swabians. In 100 years the Anglo-Saxons took over all the best lands in England and Scotland and increased their numbers by perhaps threefold. Of course England and the Scottish Lowlands constitute a much smaller size in area (about 1/4) compared to Iberia. Never the less the Swabians and Goths must have increased their numbers and probably reached 20%, which is not significant, but certainly not zero or 1%.
 
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