101 Ancient Eurasian Genomes Available Online

[Alan]

"Atlantic_Med is an EEF type ancestry. It lacked in Yamna people. So how could they brought it for that matter?"

If Atlantic_Med is more Bell Beaker than EEF i.e. a mix of EEF and some steppe copper workers and if the proto-Armenians also got an influx from a related group of steppe copper workers might the software pick "Atlantic_Med" as the closest match?

Who said AtlanticMed is Bell Beaker? Just because it peaks among them? Bell Beaker is a Neolithic group though. And Atlantic_Med was one of the strongest components in all Neolithic farmer people. And again, This doesn't explain why is almost lacks among Yamna. Therefore Atlantic_Med =/= Yamna.

Also there seems to be an argument over whether the bulk of the gene flow was north to south or south to north. It's possible that it was both i.e. a minority influx of miners from north to south could even be the catalyst for a south to north expansion by making the region richer and more densely populated.

That is a very reasonable theory and I have taken it into consideration.

 

[Alan]

Alan
Just a clarification. When I say no R1b, I mean only the Z2103 subclade.
Of course upstream clades like M269, V88, P25 and even L23 will be present in our region from long time ago.

When I said R1b I meant the upstream clades especially. But Z2103 is still also possibly from the region since it fits as yDNA which brought the West Asian type ancestry to Yamna.

 

[Regio X]

Eurogenes Steppe K10

There are links for Eurogenes Steppe K10 averages and the calculator download:
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4402-eurogenes-steppe-k10

 

[holderlin]

Are you capable of posting something that is not insulting or offensive to either an individual or a group?

I don't think it was insulting, and these groups aren't even real. If you think by making a joke about EEF genes being responsible for neurotic behavior that I'm being offensive to modern day Sardinians then I would question your sanity. Because that is truly crazy.

Is this behavior typical of members of the Reptoid ethnic group to which you say you belong?

Yes, we all hate imaginary historic groups created by algorithms.

I would suggest that you consider posting intellectual content that advances our discussions. There are consequences for your preferred method of communicating.

It takes a while to wade through all of your guys' "intellectual content".You must forgive me. I'm very busy. And it doesn't help that I have to consciously open myself up to some of these more "speculative" theories.

At the moment I could say that I liked how you cleared up Anatolian languages vs. Armenian. Big difference. But I do still think that calling these BA samples "Armenian" is confusing in this regard. People skim the thread and start talking about the language group where we're actually talking about a MBA sample from the region of modern day Armenia. The sample has little to do with modern day Armenians and I think some people are getting crossed up by this. On a related note that R1b-Z2103 is probably Hittite in origin.

I now must go purchase some Scotch.

 

[Jason Neuharth]

Yamnaya / Catacomb Russia Ulan IV, kurgan 4, grave 8 [RISE552] M 2849-2146 BC I2a I2a2a1b1b2 (S12195)

 

[Jason Neuharth]

RISE486 Italy Remedello I2a1a1a-L672/S327
RISE487 Italy Remedello I2a1a
RISE489 Italy Remedello I2a1a1a-L672/S327

 

[Jason Neuharth]

RISE247 Hungary Vatya I2a2a-L368
RISE254 Hungary Vatya I2a2a-L59
RISE479 Hungary Vatya I2a2a1a2a2-SK1247/Y4915

 

[holderlin]

Yamnaya / Catacomb Russia Ulan IV, kurgan 4, grave 8 [RISE552] M 2849-2146 BC I2a I2a2a1b1b2 (S12195)

It's obvious how I2's got to the steppe. Makes sense and all. But does anyone else see this as an indication of stronger affinity with Europe rather than West Asia e.g. if we keep seeing I2 among Yamnaya R1a and R1b and no J's, could we draw some sort of conclusion? Stronger ties with CT perhaps?

Curious what other's think about this.

 

[Sile]

It's obvious how I2's got to the steppe. Makes sense and all. But does anyone else see this as an indication of stronger affinity with Europe rather than West Asia e.g. if we keep seeing I2 among Yamnaya R1a and R1b and no J's, could we draw some sort of conclusion? Stronger ties with CT perhaps?

Curious what other's think about this.

maybe

but you need to know that I was in union with J somewhere

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_IJ

 

[holderlin]

maybe

but you need to know that I was in union with J somewhere

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_IJ

Lol. As were we all.

 

[Greying Wanderer]

It's obvious how I2's got to the steppe. Makes sense and all. But does anyone else see this as an indication of stronger affinity with Europe rather than West Asia e.g. if we keep seeing I2 among Yamnaya R1a and R1b and no J's, could we draw some sort of conclusion? Stronger ties with CT perhaps?

Curious what other's think about this.

IJ was apparently a thing at one time so I'd assume the I/J split happened either side of some kind of geographical barrier which could be west/east or north/south depending on what/where the barrier was.

 

[Tomenable]

The barrier was most likely Caucasus (ask bicicleur for more details, I know this from him). J stayed to the south of Caucasus while I crossed it and went to Europe. That was ca. 33,000 years ago. Before I came, Europe was inhabited by C1 (see Kostenki 14, La Brana 1, Neolithic Hungary).

Aurignacian culture was C1, and I came with Gravettian.

When it comes to mtDNA, Aurignacians were mostly R:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthr...ignacian-mtDNA-is-Homo-sapiens-not-Neaderthal

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthr...-DNA-in-the-News&p=80916&viewfull=1#post80916

Kostenki 14 found near the city of Voronezh along the Don River is the oldest European Y-DNA sample to date. He was C1. This C1 shows up from time to time in samples from later periods - for example in Mesolithic Spain (La Brana 1), Neolithic Hungary (Apc-Berekalja I and Kompolt-Kigyoser), etc. - so Gravettian Y-DNA didn't entirely replace Aurignacian. MtDNA R shows up too.

 

[Greying Wanderer]

The barrier was most likely Caucasus (ask bicicleur for more details, I know this from him).

Yes either side of the Black Sea seems most likely from the current distribution (although given all that's happened current distribution can't be relied on 100%).

 

[Alan]

@Angela @Sile

Got banned (with IP as if a normal ban wasn't enough and there is the risk me coming back and spamming lol) on Anthrogenica for saying that some people(David meant) have an Agenda and allegedly distracting from the topic (yes sure talking about BaArmenian samples in the thread population genomics of Eurasia is really off topic ).


What a pathethic board with pathethic mod on it, I wouldn't have set a foot there if I wasn't invited.

David once again proved how pathethic he is reporting that. This guy is so obsessed with Indo_Iranians.

In this case he will also totally ignore that East Euros don't really fit as model for Sintashta but North/Central and Northwest Europeans.



Here is the full discussion and the reason for me why I got banned on Anthrogenica(which I would have never entered if not invited).

"MasterRoshi "= me

"Generalissimo"= David

Even more after looking at those Sintashta results, I honestly doubt that this could be Proto_Indo Iranian culture. Heck even Afanasievo and Yamna look much more Indo_Iranian. Sintashta looks North and Central European with doubled teal admixture. Aren't there archeologists who see very close affinities of Indo_Iranians and BMAC? I could imagine and see it as the most plausivble that Proto Indo_Iranian is a hybrid of BMAC and Andronovo.

Andronovo and Sintashta are basically the same thing. Andronovo is just a more eastern adaptation of Sintashta.

Andronovo has more teal and Central Asian ASI admixture from the results it seems. Sintashta is the most Northeastern part of Andronovo and looks basically like Central Euros with twice as much teal admixture.

We have reached a moment in genetics where we know that Bronze Age samples from Armenia resemble all Indo_Iranian speakers perfectly better than Sintashta (supposed Proto_IndoIranians).
Makes me wonder if Cyrus was all correct when saying the Aryans originated in Umman Manda

The Armenian Bronze Age samples resemble northeast Caucasians, not any Indo-Iranians that I know. And they were probably Hurrians, which makes sense.

I have the dataset from the paper. I'm not using the samples from the bam files.

The Bronze Age Armenian samples clearly resembled Indo_Iranian speakers, They score at first Tajik closely followed by Lezgians and Italians but that doesn't mean they couldn't resemble North Caucasian speakers too, because if you haven't realized both groups Iranic and Caucasians share around 70% of ancestry. Some of the Bronze Age samples have average of 7% ASI admixture typically for Indo_Iranian speakers (range of 1-20%), 20% North Euro (typical for Iranic and Caucasian speakers) ~24% Gedrosia (typical Iranic and Caucasian speakers) and 26% Atlantic Med (typical Italian,Greek, Bulgarian) + 24% Caucasus(typical Iranic, Caucasian, Italian,Greek,Bulgarian).

Of course the Indo_Iranian speakers didn't stay exactly the same for over thousands of years. It is just the general genetic make up of those Bronze Age samples fit better for Indo_Iranian ancestry than Sintashta.

So please next time you quote me again first take a closer look at the data. I thought after people sharing their results and comparing it to BaArmenian you would have realized that their is a very Iranic like element in them. The Bronze Age Armenian samples look like a cross of Lezgian, Tajik and Italian. At least data looks like it fits as a possible source for Indo Iranian and NorthCaucasian speakers. However the "Italian" type seems to be EEF ancestry deluded out by other waves of migrants.

Not like the Sintashta figures which seem very different

I'm assuming that you're referring here to the GEDmatch stuff, because I can tell you that what you just said makes no sense when the data from the paper is analyzed in ADMIXTOOLS.

Yep as a person who is known for creating Admix tools and having them on GEDmatch he is being very GEDmatch and Admix tool critical here. I wonder why, because it doesn't suit his agenda?


And it goes on.

What doesn't make sense from what I said`?

If you don't like Gedmatch stuff you are at the wrong place I think. 70% of this whole forum is based on "GEDmatch stuff". we had people here who published the fst distances of those Bronze Age samples. They had Tajiks next by Lezgians so what is actually the problem?

We had the Samples compared by various calculators the results are always the same. Like a North_Caucasian/Iranic group + something more EEF typical (ancient element of the region most likely).

here population distances of one of the BaArmenian samples.

# Population (source) Distance
1 Turkmens (Yunusbayev) 18.6
2 Lezgins (Behar) 18.72
3 Tajiks (Yunusbayev) 19.18
4 Kumyks (Yunusbayev) 20.32
5 Iranian (Dodecad) 21.6
6 Kurd (Dodecad) 22.07
7 Kurds (Yunusbayev) 22.15
8 Iranians (Behar) 22.35
9 Chechens (Yunusbayev) 23.96
10 Turks (Behar) 24.65
11 Nogais (Yunusbayev) 24.85
12 Turkish (Dodecad) 25.18
13 Uzbekistan_Jews (Behar) 27.71
14 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 27.72
15 Adygei (HGDP) 28.54
16 O_Italian (Dodecad) 28.64
17 Romanians (Behar) 28.72
18 Greek (Dodecad) 28.95
19 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 29.6
20 Balkars (Yunusbayev) 29.85

Turkmens? Thanks for sharing.

Every person with 10% anthropological and historic knowledge knows Turkomans are turkified Iranic speakers (Dahae)basically. So where is the problem?

They belonged to exact the same subclades of R1a modern Indo-Iranians like Pashtuns (R1a1a1b2a2-Z2124/..) belong today and archaeologically they were associated with Indo-Iranians already long before any genetic studies were published. Their big genetic overlap with modern Europeans dont disprove that they were Indo-Iranians. Maybe they belonged to a fourth branch of Indo-Iranians which died out and did not migrated to South Central Asia but according to the Sintashta + Georgian/BAarmenian+ Dai model

With the right tools and agenda we can make populations appear like a mix of whatever populations we want. But that doesn't mean that this model represents the reality.

Another possibility which I kinda agree with you is that Andronovo represents another branch of Proto Indo_Iranians (Or close cousins of some) who died out.

Why is it not possible that the Proto Indo_Iranians could have formed in Umman manda? It isn't necessary that their ancestors originated their, just that those people formed in the region.

We have genetic data which resembles Indo_Iranians quite well and historic records that ancient Indo_Iranians themselves and other groups thought that they originated in Umman Manda. I don't think Cyrus the Great who was ruling from Greece to South_Central Asia didn't had the geographic knowledge to tell.

Those Sintashta look more like North and Central Euros than anything. They have the Baloch type ancestry.

The Sintashta model only works as people want it too work.

A matter of fact is based on fst distance the BaArmenian samples are allot closer to even the eastern Iranian groups such as Tajiks than Sintashta is.

Another reason for me to doubt Sintashta being at least direct ancestory of Indo_Iranians is that the West Eurasian signature of Turkic people such as Kazakhs/Uzbeks/Krygyz show a completely differen't signature than anything what could have come from Sintashta.

Turkmenistan is not really close to Armenia so this results are indeed surprising but I wonder if Turkmens got their R1b from the same source Armenians got . How can be Turkmens modeled with Sintashta/Andronovo/Yamnaya/BAarmenia if everyone has interest modeling them?

So I got banned for saying that with the right tools you can make populations appear like you want and some people might have agendas (As if David and his agenda is completely unknown from his times on various boards, including very white supremacist once). Or was it just an excuse of David use because he had no arguments to offer. What an excuse of an individual. So sensible while in the past constantly insulting Dienekes on his own board and still insulting established scientist and accusing them of agendas. But he is so sensible when someone excuses him of obvious agenda?
like here

Paul Heggarty: desperate or clueless?



Over at Diversity Linguistics Comment, Paul Heggarty of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology (Leipzig) puts his foot in his mouth with a long-winded and rather whiny comment piece about two recent ancient genomics papers - Haak et al. and Allentoft et al. - and the PIE question.

I don't have the time or energy right now to pick apart in detail Heggarty's ramblings, so I'll only focus on a couple of points. Firstly, here's a modified figure from Haak et al. that Heggarty put up with his post, and below that a couple of quotes with his explanation.

Mark my words in the near future he will create admix tools that Scythians came straight out of Baltics and modern Indo Iranians (and Kurds as his favourite foes will be viewed in the most negative way).

The reason why he doesn't want to accept the genetic links between the BaArmenian and Indo_Iranian speakers despite it being infront of him, it goes against his wish of an Scythian origin of Poles. Or Baltic origin of Scythians.

 

[Arame]

Alan
But You believe that Armenians came from Balkans right? Balkanic theory is part of Kurgan model.
In Kurgan model Indo-Iranians came from Sintashta and Andronovo.

But if You think that Iranians were present in South Caucasus and North West Iran in BA then this is a very different model. Something like Gamkrelidze Ivanov model but shifted to N Iran.

Sincerly I believe that this second option is quite viable.

 

[Rethel]

Aurignacian culture was C1, and I came with Gravettian.

And do you know maybe Tomenable,
whom were Magdalenians? Hg I too,
or maybe some diffrent ethnos came
into Europe... I'm courios...

 

[Alan]

Alan
But You believe that Armenians came from Balkans right? Balkanic theory is part of Kurgan model.
In Kurgan model Indo-Iranians came from Sintashta and Andronovo.

But if You think that Iranians were present in South Caucasus and North West Iran in BA then this is a very different model. Something like Gamkrelidze Ivanov model but shifted to N Iran.

Sincerly I believe that this second option is quite viable.

Both models are possible with an Indo_iranian origin in South Caucasus and Northwest Iran. The Gamkreildze model would put the Proto Indo Europeans in this region that is one possibility I always hold in mind

The other is even if we go by the Yamna theory it is very plausible that the Indo_Iranian branch emerged between the Zagros-Taurus mountains next to the proto Armenians in Central Anatolia, next to Greek in Greece. This would be the Indo-Hittite/Greco-Armenia-Indo_Iranian connection

The thing is what I also wrote there. We have BaArmenian samples who fit very well Indo_Iranian ancestry and some of them are closest to Turkmens and Tajiks.

This Zagros_Taurus mountain and Khorasan connection is historically evident.

Cyrus the Great and many other people point the homeland of Aryans in Umman Manda. This is what the region from Central Anatolia/Mesopotamia/Zagros all the way down to Babylon.

Linguists see Avesta as the Proto Iranic tongue. Historians believe Avesta was the language of Zarathustra and have two theory of where Avesta might have been written and where Zarathustra came from.

1. From Umman Manda from the Mithra cult and moved to Khorasan.

2. From Khorasan expandings towards West.

So either way there is connection for both regions. And it seems genetics now confirm those historic records. As we see the genetic relationship of BaArmenian and modern Turkmens/Tajiks.

 

[Rethel]

Linguists see Avesta as the Proto Indo_Iranian tongue

How it is possible, if Avesta was recreating in sassanid period in III century CE?
The language is extrapolating in VI-VII century BC. So how it could be proto-I-I?
Even proto-Iranian would be difficult, but yet possible, but not indoiranian.

 

[Alan]

How it is possible, if Avesta was recreating in sassanid period in III century CE?

You are confusing something. Avestan language was never spoken among the Sassanids.

I misstipped. I meant Proto Iranic.

Avesta was like a holy language and is considered as the most archaic form of East Iranic tongues and extremely close to Proto Iranic.
Similar to what Rig Veda is to Indo_Aryans.

The text were found in Sassanid era but they speak about a much older language. Just like how today bibles exist in very archaic Aramaic tongue.

The three most archaic dialects of Iranic are those.

Most archaic East Iranic tongue Avestan, in Khorasan often connected to Yaz culture and believed by some historians to have been brought by Zarathustra from further West in Umman Manda.

Most archaic Northwest Iranic tongue Median, spoken in the region from Taurus to Zagros and Albroz mountains.


Most archaic Southwest Iranic tongue Old Persian, spoken in modern Southwest Iran.

 

[Johannes]

Did I claim so above? Nope - I claimed that genetic ancestors of Poles lived west of the Vistula during the BRONZE Age. Bronze Age people of modern East Germany and Poland were not ancestors of Germans, they had too much of R1a to be their ancestors (see below). Apparently when Germanic tribes expanded from Scandinavia in the Iron Age, they drove previous inhabitants out. They escaped to the east:

Those Bronze Age inhabitants who escaped to the east in the Iron Age, several centuries later returned, under the name "Slavs":

ybp = years before present

http://s8.postimg.org/67u7kqtb9/R1_samples_C.png

Yes but as you said the Germans drove these people out and then they came back as "Slavs" but were driven out again by Saxons during the Early Middle Ages. Like I said: East Germany is a genetic barrier to the peoples from the East.

It would be interesting to see how much of this R1a the Goths, Burgundians, Vandals, and others was absorbed?