New Study Shows MASSIVE Ancient BA Immigration Into Ireland

Really, this is getting tiresome. Do men have to get into a *******contest over absolutely everything? Does the cherry picking of studies to prove one's own group is somehow "better", an absurdity in this context anyway, never end?

The statistics vary by study:
http://www.averageheight.co/average-male-height-by-country
http://www.disabled-world.com/artman/publish/height-chart.shtml
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Average_height_around_the_world

The general picture is pretty clear, however. The average height in most European countries is around 5'9-5'10", with the exception being the Netherlands and Scandinavian countries.

There are situations where a difference of two to three inches would indeed be noteworthy and important, but overall body height is not one of them.

Now, let's get back to the migration into Ireland. I really don't want to spend time moving posts. An extended discussion of height by European country belongs in the anthropology section.

Ed. @ Moesan
Thank you for introducing some sanity into the discussion.

OK, I'm just going to say what everyone is thinking.

We really need to get to the bottom of the genetics of penis size. We're worried about going to Mars and we have no idea, for example, if EEF was packing more meat than WHG? I mean for all we know Yamnaya dudes just whipped it out and the rest of the world got out of the way.

I guess while I'm at it I can propose my Teal wives bulbous buttocks theory. I won't go into details until my hypothesis is fully developed but I invite you all to consider the basic notion and give me your thoughts.

Yeah I know I know we're gonna have to make another thread.
 
OK, I'm just going to say what everyone is thinking.

We really need to get to the bottom of the genetics of penis size. We're worried about going to Mars and we have no idea, for example, if EEF was packing more meat than WHG? I mean for all we know Yamnaya dudes just whipped it out and the rest of the world got out of the way.

I guess while I'm at it I can propose my Teal wives bulbous buttocks theory. I won't go into details until my hypothesis is fully developed but I invite you all to consider the basic notion and give me your thoughts.

Yeah I know I know we're gonna have to make another thread.

it depends as some say if it is ring-barked
 
OK, I'm just going to say what everyone is thinking.

We really need to get to the bottom of the genetics of penis size. We're worried about going to Mars and we have no idea, for example, if EEF was packing more meat than WHG? I mean for all we know Yamnaya dudes just whipped it out and the rest of the world got out of the way.

Delusions, my friend. :) Then, in addition to all of that, you have to know what you're doing, well, unless you're using force, I suppose, and then there's the predilection to getting sloppy drunk and incapable to be considered.

Indeed, some of the biggest proponents of this theory look like nerdy librarians...which explains a great deal. Present company excepted, of course.

Punto e basta.

Oh, as for the women, forget those fat paleolithic Venus figurines. I present to you...Ishtar...a little too heavy jawed, but other than that...perfection.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/22/British_Museum_Queen_of_the_Night.jpg
 
Coming back to Bell Beakers...

Interesting papers:

http://www.jungsteinsite.uni-kiel.de/2000_mueller/14c_raum.htm
(calibrated maps)

https://getd.libs.uga.edu/pdfs/dopson_jana_s_200605_ab.pdf
(overview)

http://www.academia.edu/1249547/_20...ehistorische_Zeitschrift_82_2_2007_p._129-214
(good to read)

After checking again the BB culture it seems a very mysterious one: they don't replace the local cultures, instead they adapt (above all they get the same inhumation/tomb styles), not very usual for invading people... maybe they were nomad beer bartenders? bronze miners/smithers? yet a mystery.

But with the given information it is difficult to buy R1b = IE = BB; how BB could depart from neolithic Portugal, lose language and genes in Germany, then come back to Iberia and people all it with regional DF27 (except Basques keeping language, but no genes...); and that at the same time that BB appears in Germany it appears also in Britain, but with a clade L21 already regional in Britain/Ireland by 2000 BCE...
 
Coming back to Bell Beakers...

Interesting papers:

http://www.jungsteinsite.uni-kiel.de/2000_mueller/14c_raum.htm
(calibrated maps)

https://getd.libs.uga.edu/pdfs/dopson_jana_s_200605_ab.pdf
(overview)

http://www.academia.edu/1249547/_20...ehistorische_Zeitschrift_82_2_2007_p._129-214
(good to read)

After checking again the BB culture it seems a very mysterious one: they don't replace the local cultures, instead they adapt (above all they get the same inhumation/tomb styles), not very usual for invading people... maybe they were nomad beer bartenders? bronze miners/smithers? yet a mystery.

But with the given information it is difficult to buy R1b = IE = BB; how BB could depart from neolithic Portugal, lose language and genes in Germany, then come back to Iberia and people all it with regional DF27 (except Basques keeping language, but no genes...); and that at the same time that BB appears in Germany it appears also in Britain, but with a clade L21 already regional in Britain/Ireland by 2000 BCE...

I'm not sure if it fits all the facts but i wonder about two related BB being the result of a single source population splitting in two as it travels west with one branch arriving by sea in Iberia/Gascony and from there spreading to Brittany/SW Britain/Wales/Ireland and the second branch taking a more overland route eventually following the Rhine to Holland.

So original source R1b ydna, partially IE* -> two separate but related BB populations, maritime BB and river BB.

(* defining IE as a collection of components that arrived in a particular region from wherever and then those components stewed over time to produce a final IE package - so partially IE could define any group from that region who left before the process was complete)

edit:

forgot physical type difference
- maritime branch mixed with megalith culture
- river branch didn't
 
Ishtar's looking great there

I would also say that the ancients were no less preoccupied with such things. Aphrodite was in fact born out of a severed member.
 
Coming back to Bell Beakers... Interesting papers: http://www.jungsteinsite.uni-kiel.de/2000_mueller/14c_raum.htm (calibrated maps) https://getd.libs.uga.edu/pdfs/dopson_jana_s_200605_ab.pdf (overview) http://www.academia.edu/1249547/_20...ehistorische_Zeitschrift_82_2_2007_p._129-214 (good to read) After checking again the BB culture it seems a very mysterious one: they don't replace the local cultures, instead they adapt (above all they get the same inhumation/tomb styles), not very usual for invading people... maybe they were nomad beer bartenders? bronze miners/smithers? yet a mystery. But with the given information it is difficult to buy R1b = IE = BB; how BB could depart from neolithic Portugal, lose language and genes in Germany, then come back to Iberia and people all it with regional DF27 (except Basques keeping language, but no genes...); and that at the same time that BB appears in Germany it appears also in Britain, but with a clade L21 already regional in Britain/Ireland by 2000 BCE...
You forgot the most important feature: the different human type of the Iberian BB and the Central/Eastern BB. The former was typical gracile mediterranean, like other Neolithic samples, the latter was tall and robust with brachycephalic skull.
 
Coming back to Bell Beakers...

Interesting papers:

http://www.jungsteinsite.uni-kiel.de/2000_mueller/14c_raum.htm
(calibrated maps)

https://getd.libs.uga.edu/pdfs/dopson_jana_s_200605_ab.pdf
(overview)

http://www.academia.edu/1249547/_20...ehistorische_Zeitschrift_82_2_2007_p._129-214
(good to read)

After checking again the BB culture it seems a very mysterious one: they don't replace the local cultures, instead they adapt (above all they get the same inhumation/tomb styles), not very usual for invading people... maybe they were nomad beer bartenders? bronze miners/smithers? yet a mystery.

But with the given information it is difficult to buy R1b = IE = BB; how BB could depart from neolithic Portugal, lose language and genes in Germany, then come back to Iberia and people all it with regional DF27 (except Basques keeping language, but no genes...); and that at the same time that BB appears in Germany it appears also in Britain, but with a clade L21 already regional in Britain/Ireland by 2000 BCE...
We are pretty sure there were few waves of R1b to Iberia, the first ones were most likely not IE.
 
Hi brennos. Do you have any reference or paper about BB anthropometry?
 
Hi brennos. Do you have any reference or paper about BB anthropometry?

You could pm rms2 on Anthrogenica: he has got a lot of books about the argument. He was the first to point this observation.
 
OK, but i prefer first hand readings... and even so it is better to check the raw data.

By the way if BB originated in Iberia it would be worth to check if DF27 maps the same extension; it is not doing so, and the continental places where it is found actualy can be explained by historical causes; so deduction is that when BB spread out of the peninsula DF27 was not a big clade yet or it didn't appeared yet; but then checking S116-all (mapped in "A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe" in figure1):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3039512/

the extension coincides quite well with that of BB phenomenon, and it is particularly interesting that S116* keept mainly an iberian extension...

So R1b = BB (at least S116...), and then it is difficult to say that it was already IE... moreover there is the Basque "problem" that they are so much R1b; of course they were a small tribe in the Pyrenees and something strange could be done there that local guys disappeared and the new incomers gave out their IE (celtic?) language... but the gross problem is with the supposed similar gene change in the non-IE speaking peninsula area, being even more the most populated area (!)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Iberia_300BC-en.svg
 
You could pm rms2 on Anthrogenica: he has got a lot of books about the argument. He was the first to point this observation.
Don't trust his observations. He screwed up J2 expansion very badly, associating it with Roman Empire and Christianity. Now we know it was much much ancient, like late Neolithic and Bronze Age. What is worse, he never admitted that he was wrong. Well, at least on Eupedia here.
He has few active threads here.
 
OK, but i prefer first hand readings... and even so it is better to check the raw data.

By the way if BB originated in Iberia it would be worth to check if DF27 maps the same extension; it is not doing so, and the continental places where it is found actualy can be explained by historical causes; so deduction is that when BB spread out of the peninsula DF27 was not a big clade yet or it didn't appeared yet; but then checking S116-all (mapped in "A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe" in figure1):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3039512/

the extension coincides quite well with that of BB phenomenon, and it is particularly interesting that S116* keept mainly an iberian extension...

So R1b = BB (at least S116...), and then it is difficult to say that it was already IE... moreover there is the Basque "problem" that they are so much R1b; of course they were a small tribe in the Pyrenees and something strange could be done there that local guys disappeared and the new incomers gave out their IE (celtic?) language... but the gross problem is with the supposed similar gene change in the non-IE speaking peninsula area, being even more the most populated area (!)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Iberia_300BC-en.svg

Obviously, he has the bibliography - the so called first hand books - to tell you.

Ad for S116, its greatest diversity is in central Europe. We can't put arguments on today spread of SNPs. If so, we can easily say that R1b is native American because of its great distribution in North America.
 
I'm not sure if it fits all the facts but i wonder about two related BB being the result of a single source population splitting in two as it travels west with one branch arriving by sea in Iberia/Gascony and from there spreading to Brittany/SW Britain/Wales/Ireland and the second branch taking a more overland route eventually following the Rhine to Holland.

So original source R1b ydna, partially IE* -> two separate but related BB populations, maritime BB and river BB.

* defining IE as a collection of components that arrived in a particular region from wherever and then those components stewed over time to produce a final IE package - so partially IE could define any group from that region who left before the process was complete)

edit:

forgot physical type difference
- maritime branch mixed with megalith culture
- river branch didn't


​It's not impossible. We need more facts. The intruders new types at BB sites were at first something unkonwn in Western Europe. I think they could very well be Central-eastern European people with some contacts with steppic tribes. Some could have taken as you say a maritime route to go to Southern Atlantic Europe. The Cyprus people of the time showed some physical proximity before all that mixed with surroundings populations. I would be very glad if we had anDNA of the Worms BBs region and of the Bronze Cyprus folks (autosomes and Y-haplos). Plus of some Portugal first BBs.
I agree with Berun's doubts about the equation: I-E = BB = Y-R1b (even if for R1b = I-E the doubt is far less evident) - but doubts are not certainty! a special branch of Y-R1b can be possible even for first BBs "importers". What remains is BBs phenomenon seems more an acculturation of diverse elites than a true massive colonization spite some regions show some demic changes at local scale, limited compared to the final spread of BBs culture.
And always this question of burying discoverings: basic folks or elite? the answer seems: elite, and very moving elite sometimes and someplaces at the beginning of metals in Europe (heterogenous autosome DNA, and strontium surveys)
 
GENETIKER produced an admixture of EBA Irishmen:
very heterogenous between them, what contradicts the scientists study. Genetiker has hos own system and it could be useful in some cases and inaccurate in other cases?
the 3 give, roughly (my percentages, made at "nose sight") -renamed by myself
A- > 40% WHG - < 20% EHG - 0% EEF - > 40% westasian -
B- < 10% WHG - > 50% EHG - < 20% EEF - < 5% westasian - < 10% amerindian (red colour: Pima)
C- < 20% WHG - > 35% EHG - < 3% EEF - > 35% westasian - < 5% amerindian ( " " ")
But he wrote he was trying to do better with more SNP's so this first work would be a low coverage one...

I don't know what confidence to have for now... admixtures analysis can be uncertain sometimes, according to categorizing choices - but a certain heterogeneity in auDNA at those times of metals daybreak could be sensible, if we look at other places in Eurasia ath the same times.
 
Some interesting stuff, don't know enough to judge but...

tree rings implying major flooding in Ireland in between the neolithic woman and the arrival of the Rastlin samples

http://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.co.uk/2016/01/partholon-and-great-flood.html

and another (neolithic events are near the end)

http://www.archaeology.co.uk/articles/features/do-irish-bog-oaks-date-the-shang-dynasty.htm

given the very heavy rainfall in Ireland maybe the early farmers were flooded out?

http://norway4.wikispaces.com/file/...orway.jpg/180233955/climate_map_of_norway.jpg

Just a thought.
 
You forgot the most important feature: the different human type of the Iberian BB and the Central/Eastern BB. The former was typical gracile mediterranean, like other Neolithic samples, the latter was tall and robust with brachycephalic skull.

I don't know if it can help because in past I didn't note the references of my readings, except when they were extracted from books I decided to keep with me (I was not "doctoring").
What I red here and there among old scholars and not exclusively Coon is that almost everywhere at the daybreak of Copper and then Bronze, 'dinaric' or 'dinaroid' types appeared in Western and Southwestern Europe (even Los Millares or South Portugal if I red well) in mines places whatever their density - they were new there. The same in Cataluna, East Pyrenees and Languedoc-Provence. The same among old terminology Food Vessel peoeple of Ireland. Some appeared in Greece and densely enough during Copper/Bronze in Cyprus. the non-metric survey of Desideri concluded the more modified populations during BBs times (what precise time???) were in Switzerland ad Hungary, on the way to more 'iberian' or 'mediterranean' side. In fact other surveys based on metrics concluded the 'dinaroid' type dominant among Bohemia BBs and EVEN in some Hungary cultures linked to BBs. The apparent 'mediterranean' identity of some BBs seems to me more the reflect of the settlement of a small number of these 'dinaroids' in Iberia and in Western Mediterranean but with some strong influences: some preceding southern population could have been put in move, not by force directly from Southern Iberia to Hungary but from places to places where roughly 'mediterraneanlike' populations (perhaps females for the most) were involved. Along Rhine the majority of them were of 'dinaroid' type, type which play a strong role in the first BBs of British Round Barrows people (~2200 BC). The same big role among Poland and Bohemia BBs., before osmosis.
All the way BBs is a fluctuating concept and we cannot be sure the different BBs places (not all Western Europe spite some erroneous maps) saw exactly the same people as History was running on, spite the archeological labelof "BB". What is sure is that a new brachycephalic type (new according to discovered buryings), 'dinaric' (and associated 'dinaroid') appeared in Europe (until Denmark) about the 3000 BC. in South, they tended to disappear after some time (departure or/and assimilation?)
Pure or the result of statistically stable crossing between 2 phenotypes, the "type" has been everywhere where metals were in cause in Europe. The first apparented brachycephalic types appeared clearly in Anatolia and South Caucasus about the 2000 BC, maybe a bit before, before riching Palestina where they did not mix immediatly with the predecessors.
the geographical origin? We don't know. Why going too far from their current places of high density? Western Balkans or Carpathians? the mountains could have favoured a selection upon a basis of crossing envolving 'borrebylike' subbracchycephals and some kind of dolichocephals? the different types of dolichocephals involved can explain nuances? Balkans were the place where met some different people, someones arrived or acculturated to a respectable level of skills in metallurgy, even before the steppic big moves.
&: the use of certain cradling methods in Anatolia flattening the occipital could date of a period of an elite domination apparented to these people? other skull disforming traditions occurred along History, linked to elites.
 
I don't know if it can help because in past I didn't note the references of my readings, except when they were extracted from books I decided to keep with me (I was not "doctoring"). What I red here and there among old scholars and not exclusively Coon is that almost everywhere at the daybreak of Copper and then Bronze, 'dinaric' or 'dinaroid' types appeared in Western and Southwestern Europe (even Los Millares or South Portugal if I red well) in mines places whatever their density - they were new there. The same in Cataluna, East Pyrenees and Languedoc-Provence. The same among old terminology Food Vessel peoeple of Ireland. Some appeared in Greece and densely enough during Copper/Bronze in Cyprus. the non-metric survey of Desideri concluded the more modified populations during BBs times (what precise time???) were in Switzerland ad Hungary, on the way to more 'iberian' or 'mediterranean' side. In fact other surveys based on metrics concluded the 'dinaroid' type dominant among Bohemia BBs and EVEN in some Hungary cultures linked to BBs. The apparent 'mediterranean' identity of some BBs seems to me more the reflect of the settlement of a small number of these 'dinaroids' in Iberia and in Western Mediterranean but with some strong influences: some preceding southern population could have been put in move, not by force directly from Southern Iberia to Hungary but from places to places where roughly 'mediterraneanlike' populations (perhaps females for the most) were involved. Along Rhine the majority of them were of 'dinaroid' type, type which play a strong role in the first BBs of British Round Barrows people (~2200 BC). The same big role among Poland and Bohemia BBs., before osmosis. All the way BBs is a fluctuating concept and we cannot be sure the different BBs places (not all Western Europe spite some erroneous maps) saw exactly the same people as History was running on, spite the archeological labelof "BB". What is sure is that a new brachycephalic type (new according to discovered buryings), 'dinaric' (and associated 'dinaroid') appeared in Europe (until Denmark) about the 3000 BC. in South, they tended to disappear after some time (departure or/and assimilation?) Pure or the result of statistically stable crossing between 2 phenotypes, the "type" has been everywhere where metals were in cause in Europe. The first apparented brachycephalic types appeared clearly in Anatolia and South Caucasus about the 2000 BC, maybe a bit before, before riching Palestina where they did not mix immediatly with the predecessors. the geographical origin? We don't know. Why going too far from their current places of high density? Western Balkans or Carpathians? the mountains could have favoured a selection upon a basis of crossing envolving 'borrebylike' subbracchycephals and some kind of dolichocephals? the different types of dolichocephals involved can explain nuances? Balkans were the place where met some different people, someones arrived or acculturated to a respectable level of skills in metallurgy, even before the steppic big moves. &: the use of certain cradling methods in Anatolia flattening the occipital could date of a period of an elite domination apparented to these people? other skull disforming traditions occurred along History, linked to elites.
Good point, but it doesn't fit with the global fashion: a lot of population, not closely related, had the opposite manner, i.e. to make longer the head. See Huns, some Amerindians, Egyptians, ecc...
 
Good point, but it doesn't fit with the global fashion: a lot of population, not closely related, had the opposite manner, i.e. to make longer the head. See Huns, some Amerindians, Egyptians, ecc...

Maybe it does. If the people who became BB ultimately came from a place where people were brachycephalic but took two routes to the west - one segment went overland and kept their head shape while the other segment went via Iberia and mixed with gracile people along the way and changed head shape.
 
MOESAN, The question of Brachycephaly is interesting, but it was also present in a Neolithic person in Catalonia, so i'm thinking that mainly they came with "Dinaric" Y-DNA I2 and E as the Cardial Culture first appears in Epirus. But it is true that the Neolithic is mainly dolicocephalic and with Bell Beaker the Brachycephaly rises to 10-15% (in Catalonia at least); but what i can not understand is that if Brachycephaly came with BB why in Catalonia this culture appears around 3000/2900 BCE and in Central Europe it appears 400 years after. Moreover there are not noticeable cultural disruption with such Brachycephalics as after Bell Beaker it follows regional Pyrenean Bell Beaker. Moreover teeth analisys in Swiss BB points to southern migrants, in Czech republic i remember that BB is associated to migrants, making more complicated to find out the "phantom" Indoeuropean migration with BB to Western Europe. It's necessary to find out more data to verify this theory.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonnanaro_culture

In Sardinia late BB is associated to the apparition of Brachycephaly and the North Italy Polada Culture, which seems received northern migrants from Central Europe; i would expect a more radical cultural shift if invading IE were taking the island.
 

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