Y DNA R1b and homosexuality

Ha, I laughed when i saw this, probably the most sane comment in this thread.

As far as I know homosexuality is greatly influenced by hormonal imbalance in the womb. I often see people trying to relate Haplogroups to certain traits but I dont think I've ever seen a substantial scientific study proving a causation between Haplogroups and any traits that wasn't actually caused by some other factor.

I recall reading somewhere that people with y-dna N make better weightlifters and people with y-dna T make better sprinters but I'm not sure I believe any of that.

maybe its because the y chromsome starts to kick in about 6 weeks after conception......this is the norm.........maybe homosexual mens Y -Chr kicks in later , like 10 weeks , which could mean more female x-chr traits in their makeup :confused:
 
I would tend to think its completely cultural. Look at western Europe from to the fall of Rome to 1900 and you would never assume there was correlation between homosexuality and R1b more than any Haplogroup or place on the planet.

Yet only a couple centuries prior the fall of Rome Plato was writing in the Republic one of the most important books ever written about the temptation to lust after young male pupils and only a few decades after 1900 many western European nations had allowed for same sex marriage.

I believe its just modern "liberal" beliefs and ancient indo european beliefs somewhat overlapping on that one issue. Christianity dominated the cultural attitude toward homosexuality in europe for many years and had been itself influenced by early Semitic views on it(which may have arisen due to cleanliness i.e preventing the spread of STD and then became infused with religious doctrine later on). With rise of Islam in Europe we may even see this happen again as attitudes about homosexuality shift back to another cultural source. What I'm trying to show here is that the trend is transient due to the culture of the time.

It seems in ancient times homosexuality was really a cultural event among warrior peoples or warrior classes, we see it in the Samurai who have nothing to do with Indo Europeans. It was most likely a cultural phenomenon shared among warrior classes or peoples because of their lack of contact with women and strong bond forming with other men. Other cultures may have developed differently and seen it as uncleanly as I described before with Semitic groups, the decision whether to accept it or not probably depended on the cultures environment and which option had the less detrimental consequence.


You are over simplifying when you say that homosexuality in Northern countries, is a matter a liberty. Its not. Homosexuality was widespread in Nazi Germany. Was liberty the cause? Was not. The reason is in R1b countries the homosexuals are numerous. They have the numbers and the power to make their voice heard. Many homos appear to be intelligent. As such they have occupied high position in social hierarchy making it possible to influence the society to accept their presence. Homosexuality has been visible in Dictatorial countries like Germany not in liberal ones as Holland. The only country in the world that has always been open to ideas and behaviors that for everyone else were heretic was Holland. Other countries simply imported Dutch model. And yet homosexuality was not open and accepted in Holland.
To make my point: Homosexuality in Northern countries is wide spread and numerous as result of genetic predisposition. This high numbers and their social status made it possible that societies in North to accept as the fact of life homosexuality.
 
I would tend to think its completely cultural. Look at western Europe from to the fall of Rome to 1900 and you would never assume there was correlation between homosexuality and R1b more than any Haplogroup or place on the planet.

Yet only a couple centuries prior the fall of Rome Plato was writing in the Republic one of the most important books ever written about the temptation to lust after young male pupils and only a few decades after 1900 many western European nations had allowed for same sex marriage.

I believe its just modern "liberal" beliefs and ancient indo european beliefs somewhat overlapping on that one issue. Christianity dominated the cultural attitude toward homosexuality in europe for many years and had been itself influenced by early Semitic views on it(which may have arisen due to cleanliness i.e preventing the spread of STD and then became infused with religious doctrine later on). With rise of Islam in Europe we may even see this happen again as attitudes about homosexuality shift back to another cultural source. What I'm trying to show here is that the trend is transient due to the culture of the time.

It seems in ancient times homosexuality was really a cultural event among warrior peoples or warrior classes, we see it in the Samurai who have nothing to do with Indo Europeans. It was most likely a cultural phenomenon shared among warrior classes or peoples because of their lack of contact with women and strong bond forming with other men. Other cultures may have developed differently and seen it as uncleanly as I described before with Semitic groups, the decision whether to accept it or not probably depended on the cultures environment and which option had the less detrimental consequence.

Every behavior or cultural trait isn't because your Germanic or Greek or Chinese or whatever. There isn't an Indo European or Semetic behavior or culture. Your making connections that don't exist.
 
To make my point: Homosexuality in Northern countries is wide spread and numerous as result of genetic predisposition. This high numbers and their social status made it possible that societies in North to accept as the fact of life homosexuality.

You have no evidence to back this up or debunk it. You're making baseless statements. IMO, it's 100% culture. You could say any region of the world is genetically prone to certain behavior, if it's in the result of their culture.
 
Homosexuality isn't more widespread in western Europe; it's more visible;
there are cultures like eastern Europe or the Middle East where it all happens underground.
You would be a blind man to deny it exists there.
 
Every behavior or cultural trait isn't because your Germanic or Greek or Chinese or whatever. There isn't an Indo European or Semetic behavior or culture. Your making connections that don't exist.

You misrepresented what I said. In fact I believe we agree with each other that people here are mistaking the acceptance of homosexuality in some cultures with a propensity to be more homosexual. I was simply giving examples of cultures that historically accepted and rejected homosexuality, I never said it was ingrained in their behavior.
 
You are over simplifying when you say that homosexuality in Northern countries, is a matter a liberty. Its not. Homosexuality was widespread in Nazi Germany. Was liberty the cause? Was not. The reason is in R1b countries the homosexuals are numerous. They have the numbers and the power to make their voice heard. Many homos appear to be intelligent. As such they have occupied high position in social hierarchy making it possible to influence the society to accept their presence. Homosexuality has been visible in Dictatorial countries like Germany not in liberal ones as Holland. The only country in the world that has always been open to ideas and behaviors that for everyone else were heretic was Holland. Other countries simply imported Dutch model. And yet homosexuality was not open and accepted in Holland.
To make my point: Homosexuality in Northern countries is wide spread and numerous as result of genetic predisposition. This high numbers and their social status made it possible that societies in North to accept as the fact of life homosexuality.


I didn't say that the acceptance of homosexuality was exclusive to western liberal society and that it couldn't be found in other cultures, I was making the case that people perceive homosexuality as more prevalent in these places because they are accepted by the modern cultures there. If you find acceptance of homosexuality on the left or right of the political spectrum it doesn't matter that's not the argument I'm making.(Although your claim that homosexuality was widespread in Nazi Germany as compared to any other society is dubious, the original leader of the brown shirts was purged for being a homosexual)

The fact is you have no empirical data to support your outrageous claim, especially when controlling for the fact that its acceptable to be homosexual in these countries. If you were to do conduct such a study in northern europe during the middle ages you would be hard pressed to find an admitting homosexual, just as you would be in modern times in places where homosexuality is frowned upon.

You make this claim that there is a genetic predisposition in Northern Europe for homosexuality but you offer no hard evidence other than your anecdotal observations which conveniently ignore anything that doesnt validate your argument. Your whole basis of your argument seems to be that since they in our modern era culturally accept homosexuality and have high rates of R1b then it must be correlated. R1b is also highly prevalent in central asia and parts of Africa yet I don't see much acceptance for homosexuality there. I'm guessing your counter argument will be equally vague and based on observation
 
What haplogroups, you assume, will gays in China or Japan have?

Is the percent of gays among the population the same in China or Japan as in Europe, or lower, or higher?
 
maybe its because the y chromsome starts to kick in about 6 weeks after conception......this is the norm.........maybe homosexual mens Y -Chr kicks in later , like 10 weeks , which could mean more female x-chr traits in their makeup :confused:

Perhaps, we would need to see research done on this, but homosexuality is not only correlated with feminine traits many homosexuals display hypermasculinity. I think the science behind it is fairly complex. What I was pointing at here though is that we were neglecting the female side to it which doesn't even involve the y chromosome.
 
I would tend to think its completely cultural. Look at western Europe from to the fall of Rome to 1900 and you would never assume there was correlation between homosexuality and R1b more than any Haplogroup or place on the planet.

Yet only a couple centuries prior the fall of Rome Plato was writing in the Republic one of the most important books ever written about the temptation to lust after young male pupils and only a few decades after 1900 many western European nations had allowed for same sex marriage.

I believe its just modern "liberal" beliefs and ancient indo european beliefs somewhat overlapping on that one issue. Christianity dominated the cultural attitude toward homosexuality in europe for many years and had been itself influenced by early Semitic views on it(which may have arisen due to cleanliness i.e preventing the spread of STD and then became infused with religious doctrine later on). With rise of Islam in Europe we may even see this happen again as attitudes about homosexuality shift back to another cultural source. What I'm trying to show here is that the trend is transient due to the culture of the time.

It seems in ancient times homosexuality was really a cultural event among warrior peoples or warrior classes, we see it in the Samurai who have nothing to do with Indo Europeans. It was most likely a cultural phenomenon shared among warrior classes or peoples because of their lack of contact with women and strong bond forming with other men. Other cultures may have developed differently and seen it as uncleanly as I described before with Semitic groups, the decision whether to accept it or not probably depended on the cultures environment and which option had the less detrimental consequence.

I may have given the wrong impression about the arguments presented here.

The author isn't saying that male homosexuality was only present in Indo-European societies. He's saying that it was ritualized as a right of passage for adolescent boys in these warrior cultures whether Greek, Celtic, Germanic, Indo-Iranian etc. He even finds it in warrior cultures of Melanesia, so it isn't only Indo-European warrior cultures.

He also shows that it was present in the prior "Neolithic" cultures.
https://books.google.com/books?id=1...exuality in ancient farming cultures&f=false

I think there's pretty abundant evidence from Canaanite culture that it was ritualized in a completely different context there, as there were male prostitutes in the temples as well as the more common female ones. The male priests took the passive role. So, I don't think there was a "Semitic" or Near Eastern proscription against it. The proscription was the product specifically of Hebrew religious and societal norms. They railed against male prostitution as well as female prostitution in the temples and orgiastic rites of any kind. Even masturbation was a grave transgression, so I don't think it was totally about disease avoidance. It might perhaps have partly been a way to distinguish themselves from the Canaanites whom they wished to supplant, although they took it further than the Indo-Europeans.
http://epistle.us/hbarticles/neareast.html

The literature on the subject is ambiguous, but it does seem there is a genetic component, as well as perhaps epi-genetic factors. It also seems to pass through mothers, not fathers, which would mean that the ychromosome is either irrelevant or a minor factor. That makes sense to me since we can see it is present in cultures carrying diverse yhaplogroups.

That isn't to say that it is not more prevalent in certain ethnicities. I don't think anyone knows that yet, but it may well be true.

Oh, and just because it was a right of passage in certain cultures doesn't mean that most men continued to practice it, because there are indications from ancient literature that this wasn't the case.
 
I've heard and read, that homosexuality is caused by prenatal anomalies in levels of hormones, not by genes.

I think this is correct because homosexuals often don't have children, so selection works against their genes.
 
Is the percent of gays among the population the same in China or Japan as in Europe, or lower, or higher?
I'm not sure if they did any statistics, as we have from the West. But it surely exists, and I believe on similar scale. Even existed in samurai culture.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_Japan

I'm expecting to see a big difference between farmers and small hunter gatherer tribes in level of LGBT. Theoretically, it should be increased in farmer societies due to arranged and forced marriages. Unlike small tribes where laws are few and people are most free to go with their nature.
 
I've heard and read, that homosexuality is caused by prenatal anomalies in levels of hormones, not by genes.
Keep in mind that genes do regulate level of hormones and amount of receptors. It could be a simple genetic case. Well, maybe not that simple if there are good few genes involved.

I think this is correct because homosexuals often don't have children, so selection works against their genes.
Yes, now when they have a choice, but not before when all the marriages were arranged and forced by parents and societal pressure. I know couple of gays from polish community here, married in Poland, who were husbands and fathers, and left all of this for a guy lover. They say that they were sick and tired of pretending they were straight. The point is that they were gay and they made children, possibly transferring "gayness" to next generation.
 
...
The literature on the subject is ambiguous, but it does seem there is a genetic component, as well as perhaps epi-genetic factors. It also seems to pass through mothers, not fathers, which would mean that the ychromosome is either irrelevant or a minor factor. That makes sense to me since we can see it is present in cultures carrying diverse yhaplogroups....

Good point. The "Gay Uncle" theory of the transmission of male homosexuality claims that the genes typically causing men to become gay do not affect women in that way. It then says that gay men, being mostly childless but still having a fatherhood instict, lavish extraordinary amounts of attention and nurturing onto their nieces and nephews. The nieces, having multiple strong "daddy" figures in their lives, grow up very healthy, get married, and have lots of children. The nephews become another generation of "gay uncles" to help raise the next generation of gay-male-gene propagating girls.

In a nutshell, the theory offers an explanation why such a seemingly anti-reproductive trait can still reproduce. In a sense, gay men reproduce indirectly via their sisters.

If this is true, I would expect there to be a stronger correlation between mtDNA and male homosexuality than a correlation with y-DNA. Has anyone found one?
 
Is the percent of gays among the population the same in China or Japan as in Europe, or lower, or higher?

No one can know for sure until all homosexuals and bisexuals feel outright comfortable in their sexuality world wide. Remember that in all Islamic countries homosexuality is a crime (Like in some African countries), just like it was in Europe a few decades ago. So who is going to claim to be a homosexual in any kind of survey?! Homosexuals only won some degree of rights very recently, in China and that does not mean that all of them are comfortable to be honest with their sexuality. There is still a great deal of nonacceptance in Russia and the east of Europe in general and many refuse to be open or even comfortable with their sexuality.
 
I've heard and read, that homosexuality is caused by prenatal anomalies in levels of hormones, not by genes.

I think this is correct because homosexuals often don't have children, so selection works against their genes.

There are a good amount of Homosexuals (male and female) that have been married (because of social pressure) and had children.
 
You misrepresented what I said. In fact I believe we agree with each other that people here are mistaking the acceptance of homosexuality in some cultures with a propensity to be more homosexual. I was simply giving examples of cultures that historically accepted and rejected homosexuality, I never said it was ingrained in their behavior.

I know. I just don't agree we know what PIE culture or Semitic culture is. So, to say Europe's acceptance of homosexuality is partly because of PIE isn't true. PIE, etc. cultural traits should be long dead by now. Not because their genes or language didn't survive, but because every generation is a new start and culture quickly changes/dies out.
 
@Lebrok,

History of homosexuality
In a 1976 study, Gwen Broude and Sarah Greene compared attitudes towards and frequency of homosexuality in the ethnographic studies available in the Standard cross-cultural sample. They found that out of 42 communities: homosexuality was accepted or ignored in 9; 5 communities had no concept of homosexuality; 11 considered it undesirable but did not set punishments; and 17 strongly disapproved and punished. Of 70 communities, homosexuality was reported to be absent or rare in frequency in 41, and present or not uncommon in 29.[1][2]

IMO, in recent years homosexuality has been blown out of proportion in the West. Most popular TV shows have a star gay member, mentions to homosexuality is common. But I really don't think in most human societies it's nearly as common as the West has it cracked up to be.

I read some type of Ape-expert or whatever(don't know the real name) that said homosexuality has never been reported in Chimps in the wild, but is well known in Bonobos. Also, that they usually only see homosexuality in animals when they're taken out of the wild and put in zoos or just human controlled areas. Sexuality is male-female reproduction, end of story. If Homosexuality exists in nature in our DNA, it's some-type of mutation of heterosexuality. And to say homosexuality is on par with heterosexuality of normality in sexuality is denial of the mechanism of sex itself, because sex is a gender thing(One has the vagina, one has the penis).
 
Fire Haired,

A Polish feminist from the Congress of Women - professor Monika Płatek - would disagree with you. She said: :)

Quote:

"In homosexual marriages as many children are born, and often more, than in heterosexual marriages."

Source (in Polish): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0qmuBSGUog#t=4m38s

NwKXNav.gif


Maybe in lesbian marriages, but obviously not in gay marriages.
 

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