The genetic structure of the world’s first farmers

So, do we know if a population inhabiting, say, the Caucasus or just south of it, or living near the Caspian could have come into contact with Proto-Uralic speakers or a "language" that later developed into proto-Uralic?
Not with the dialect of that language which later developed into Uralic (I'd say it developed from guys who stayed in/near Khvalynsk?), but with dialect of that language which became PIE.
If Indo-Uralic is right, then there is no "Uralic influence into PIE", it would be like saying there is Gaelic influence into Persian. PIE and Uralic are then sister language groups.

P.s.
For Anatolian and Indo-Uralic link:
"Some Indo-Uralic Aspects of Hittite" (Alwin Kloekhorst).
 
But it did exist in ANE (Afontova Gora 2) andl later in Mesolithic EHG & SHG. So it looks like being Siberian in origin. Of course I mean the "Caucasoid" variant, not the "Mongoloid" one - which probably originated even farther to the north-east (although Upper Paleolithic Kostenki14 from European Russia had the "Mongoloid" variant of light skin mutation, according to Genetiker).

Nothing strongly suggests it's of Siberian origin. There isn't enough data to look at. Don't trust AG2's results because he's of low coverage.
 
Well, I reviewed the y-chromosome of I1707 and there is not found the claimed SNP "PF7466" position: 13904842. There is only a position 13904842 reported within chromosome 1. The only positive reported SNPs give us IJK but not T. Anyway this claimed "T" is negative for all known main subclades.
 
I reviewed all LT, T, T1 and T1a SNPs and there is none tested for I1707. negative for T1a1, T1a2 and T1a3a SNPs. Positive only for IJK. This sample looks as wrongly reported as T.
 
BTW - Natufians were 100% dark skin + 100% dark hair + 100% dark eyes.

I think that might have been pretty standard for human populations around 10,000 ybp according to Scientists. Humans started the depigmentation process through lack of Sunlight and change of Diet irrelevant of the Haplotype they would carry.

Migration of modern humans into Europe, based on simulation by Currat & Excoffier (2004)[54]
(YBP=Years before present)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_human_migrations



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37500ybp 35,000ybp 32.500ybp 30,000ybp
 
I reviewed all LT, T, T1 and T1a SNPs and there is none tested for I1707. negative for T1a1, T1a2 and T1a3a SNPs. Positive only for IJK. This sample looks as wrongly reported as T.
Did Genetiker report it was T?
 
Genetiker could find the SNPs linking I1707 to T. I will try to find why I have not found them in the genome.
 
Vitamin D occurs naturally in very few foods. Milk has very little Vitamin D. It has it today because it is fortified with it. Likewise, meat in general doesn't have very much, but organ meats have more. The biggest source of it is in fish, particularly oily fish.

See:
https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/VitaminD-HealthProfessional/

In some hunter-gatherer groups in Europe they got 80% of their caloric intake from meat and fish. Around the Baltic a very large percentage of that 80% was from fish. In some Neolithic societies the percentages were almost exactly reversed, although it varied by area. I've previously posted papers on all of this. Consumption of cow meat (domesticated) seems to have been more for celebrations and other ritual purposes. The liver is a very small part of the cow, of course. Pork has more and they did consume some pigs, but again, it would have been fish consumption which would have made a big difference.

In the book "The Early Mediterranean Village", Robb makes much of the fact that although there were fresh water lakes near some of these Italian Neolithic settlements there is no evidence that the Neolithic farmers actually ate fish. It almost seemed to him like a deliberate aversion. In other areas there was some hunting and some fishing, but by no means in all. Later on, with downturns in the climate, or, who knows, with some admixture with some remnants of the WHG, there was some increased reliance on hunting and fishing.
http://www.cambridge.org/cu/academi...e-and-social-change-neolithic-italy?format=PB

There is also a paper which I previously posted showing that even in Scandinavia and the Baltic people who had previously based most of their diet on fish stopped eating it when they turned to agriculture. It was only later, perhaps with the collapse of the Neolithic package, that they turned to the sea again for food. I've wondered, as Frachetti seemed to indicate in his books and articles whether grain took on an almost ritual significance.

Thanks Angela. I've very little knowledge about ancient feeding, except a local survey about Denmark N-Germany Neolithic area (HG vs Farmers). All that takes time to read!
 
So, do we know if a population inhabiting, say, the Caucasus or just south of it, or living near the Caspian could have come into contact with Proto-Uralic speakers or a "language" that later developed into proto-Uralic?

Old theories about finnic-ugric languages link them as you know to a previous big Uralian group (with Samoyedes and Co). Only the Finnic-Ugric group has I-I loan words. Thay would have colonized the Kama-Petchora region West the Urals only about the 3000 BC or perhaps a bit earlier, IV° mill. There it's sure they had cultural contacts with "our" Steppic people, I consider as reasonably already I-Ean. But their loanwords upon primitive I-I would have occurred between VI and IV mill. BC what could seem a bit too soon for someones. Nevertheless IF the loans dates are TRUE that could mean that the contacts were already very early and far in North-East. Some influences from the Keltiminar culture were visible. Three subsequent cultures during Copper/Bronze (Turbino, Volossovo, Gorbunovo/Annino/Dmitirev) seem linked to Finnic-Ugric people. Pozdniakovo (higher Volga) seems having underwent strong influences of I-Eans of Timber Graves Abashevo (which gave them kourgan habits). All that does not exclude a southern (Caucasus or close) origin of I-Eans. But the high age of these contacts and the partial morphologic links between the two groups of languages does not plaid for an only Maykop time influence for proto-I-Ean at first sight. the links between F-U and I-E seems older and deeper to me.
 
Not with the dialect of that language which later developed into Uralic (I'd say it developed from guys who stayed in/near Khvalynsk?), but with dialect of that language which became PIE.
If Indo-Uralic is right, then there is no "Uralic influence into PIE", it would be like saying there is Gaelic influence into Persian. PIE and Uralic are then sister language groups.

P.s.
For Anatolian and Indo-Uralic link:
"Some Indo-Uralic Aspects of Hittite" (Alwin Kloekhorst).

Problem is those studies can be speculative. Proto-Indo-Uralic language, what gives Kloekhorst, whether (and where) existed, where is evidence.

Even Proto Uralic languages seem much younger than earlier opinions. Hakinnen (2012) give that Proto-Uralic emerged about 2,800 BC. It is after Indo-European, it doesn't matter if you take in account Anatolian or Kurgan hypothesis.

Yes, Uralic languages could impact on Indo-European but this should no be exaggerated. And, Indo-European influenced Uralic. Hakinnen (2012) argue where it happened, in Steppe.

According Hakkinen (2012):

I stage 2,800 BC Early Archaic Indo-European borrowings to Early Proto Uralic,

II stage 2,300 BC Late Archaic (Northwest) Indo European borrowings to Late Proto Uralic

III stage 1,800 BC Northwest Indo European borrowings to Uralic dialects .
 
We need Armenian N!
OK for a possible Anatolian contribution concerning WHG+LevtN (every new simulation sends new reference population, funny indeed!) intoArmenia: why not?
Concerning comparions metals age Armenia with CHG, as Armenia shows levels of WHG and LevtN, if Armenia was issued from old CHG, this new admixture would reduce the EHG and IranN (=CHG) in itself. Or if Armenia was previously a mix of WHG and LevtN (=Anatolia)+ the admixture with CHGs from N-Caucasus would also produce less EHG in itself tha in the donor CHG pop. So I think and CHG and Armenia had high levels of IranN, but Armenia received new EHG non-Caucasus, so surely Steppic. Some papers all the way seem showing metals ages Armenia had affinities with Yamnaya, not only 'westasian'; Genetiker whatever the worth of his work, "found" some East-Asia (rather 'amerind' or 'siberian') in BA Armenians what does not seem come through iran at these dates but was found in almost every supposed Steppic influenced pops. On a plotting of Davidsky BA Armenians are shifted towards Lezgins, and Tadjiks, closer to these last ones than Georgians or Adygei, far from the today Armenians and even Iranians. I 'm not sure all that would be without any signification at all? and EHG of some weight in CSW Asia at these dates? I don't buy before more infos.
We could say, it's true, that the supposed "steppic" admixture would not prove a cultural influence of North Caucasus upon South, but rather an osmosis after colonization of North by South Caucasus? Who knows? All the way I discard a colonization by Tadjiks from East at those times, for good sense and archeological reasons.

The problem is that the Armenian sample can't be modeled with an influx of early steppe.

That might just mean we don't yet have samples from the proximate population.

Just a point about Kurd's work on creating admixture analyses based on these samples: very interesting.

As expected, North Africans turn out to be mainly Levant Neolithic with about 20% SSA.

One thing that some of the commentary may be missing in terms of populations like the Palestinians and the Jordanians is that as time passed I think there was diffusion from Arabia north, intensified perhaps with the Muslim invasions, an Arabia which I think might have remained rather "Natufian" like because they didn't admix to the same extent with the Anatolian Neolithic or Iranian Neolithic groups.

So, perhaps it's not necessarily the case that they haven't changed at all since the early Neolithic, but that the area went from Natufian to Levant Neolithic and back to a slightly more "Natufian like" configuration.

Just throwing this out as some speculation.
 
With these SNP's, then this T is part of the T1a1 group ...............so paper was wrong

The marker as per genetiker is T1 .............and not T1a
 
I really doubt that EHG had actual WHG admixture. It was probably just some "WHG-like" ancestry, but not actual WHG.

It is probably a similar case as with Corded Ware having Yamna ancestry, while in reality it could be just "Yamna-like".

All that are simulations, modelings, it depends on what you call WHG or EHG: historical population or principal component? I am a bit doubtfull about all these admixture inequal results. What prevents somebody to "make" EHG as WHG+ANE? or something else?
Same for IranN in CHG? What kind of CHG? were not the first CHG reference people older than IranN? (or I missed something, possible).
First we had Neolithic EEF (pure in some modelings) after we have EEF+WHG, after EEF+WHG+CHG: what next? Shared genes, yes, but what more?
the only value of this is some reliability in global distances and affinities between populations, but what about who gave or received to or from who? Finally the plottings say almost more than all these admixtures results, changing sometime dramatically by time, even among scientist world.
 
@MOESAN
This is why I joined this forum. You won't find me in any other ethnic forum. I learned nothing from "scientists" who insist that the Egyptians were Scottish because a pharaoh had "Celtic" y dna or calling y dna found throughout the Middle East and Europe "Roman".
 
How come Levant Neolithic got caucasoid light skin two genes, having 66% components of 100% black skin Natufians? Moreover, He was getting overload of vitamin D from Sun everyday. However, this fact applied to the situation of dark WHG and EEF w/ the 2 skin gene in Europe around 8,000ybp to 5,000ybp.

Another interesting thing is Levant bronze, the descendant of this levant neolithic, lost Levant Neolithic SLC45A2.
 
Problem is those studies can be speculative. Proto-Indo-Uralic language, what gives Kloekhorst, whether (and where) existed, where is evidence.

Even Proto Uralic languages seem much younger than earlier opinions. Hakinnen (2012) give that Proto-Uralic emerged about 2,800 BC. It is after Indo-European, it doesn't matter if you take in account Anatolian or Kurgan hypothesis.

Yes, Uralic languages could impact on Indo-European but this should no be exaggerated. And, Indo-European influenced Uralic. Hakinnen (2012) argue where it happened, in Steppe.

According Hakkinen (2012):

I stage 2,800 BC Early Archaic Indo-European borrowings to Early Proto Uralic,

II stage 2,300 BC Late Archaic (Northwest) Indo European borrowings to Late Proto Uralic

III stage 1,800 BC Northwest Indo European borrowings to Uralic dialects .
The main guy behind Indo-Uralic is not Kloekhorst, it is Kortlandt, who is quite a big name in mainstream linguistics.

For Indo-Uralic concept:
http://www.kortlandt.nl/publications/art269e.pdf - An outline of Proto-Indo-European
http://www.kortlandt.nl/publications/art203e.pdf - The Indo-Uralic verb
http://www.kortlandt.nl/publications/art216e.pdf - Indo-Uralic and Altaic (more like bonus article)

As to Uralic age, I actually agree to Hakkinen, but one daughter's TMRCA can be way younger than other daughter's TMRCA, look at Baltic and Slavic and Balto-Slavic.
 
The problem is that the Armenian sample can't be modeled with an influx of early steppe.

That might just mean we don't yet have samples from the proximate population.

Just a point about Kurd's work on creating admixture analyses based on these samples: very interesting.

As expected, North Africans turn out to be mainly Levant Neolithic with about 20% SSA.

One thing that some of the commentary may be missing in terms of populations like the Palestinians and the Jordanians is that as time passed I think there was diffusion from Arabia north, intensified perhaps with the Muslim invasions, an Arabia which I think might have remained rather "Natufian" like because they didn't admix to the same extent with the Anatolian Neolithic or Iranian Neolithic groups.

So, perhaps it's not necessarily the case that they haven't changed at all since the early Neolithic, but that the area went from Natufian to Levant Neolithic and back to a slightly more "Natufian like" configuration.

Just throwing this out as some speculation.

Arabs are J1-P58.
Their origin is the Levant as Arab is a west-Semitic language.
They probably arrived in the Levant during Levantine EBA, as Levant BA is 44 % Iran Chl.
They moved into Arabia not earlier than ca 5 ka, way after Natufian era.

The Nabateans that moved into the area after the deportation of the Israelites by the Assyrians was probably an Arab backmigration. That was 6th cent. BC.
 

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