• Don't want to see ads? Install an adblocker like uBlock Origin or use a Europe-based privacy-friendly browser like Vivaldi or Mullvad.

Immigration Dozens dead as vehicle crashed into crowd in Nice, France

From chapter 1 of "How to Survive in the West? A Mujahid's Guide":

https://s32.postimg.org/z8izvb5gl/Chapter_1.png

Chapter_1.png
 
@Bicicleur,
Whatever the case in the past, after the attack at the theater Hollande wanted a massive response; he was shut down by Obama.

@Tomenable,
You may not be breaking any forum rules, but I personally find your posts on this thread and others recently very disturbing . Lately, it seems as if I can count on you to immediately go to the most extreme right wing position. This kind of response is totally devoid of nuance, in my opinion, and would probably be counter-productive. France doesn't want to descend into civil war. It's easy to talk when none of this is likely to affect you; none of them are interested in going to Poland.

I also think that to deny that anyone who would do this kind of act is not mentally well balanced runs counter to everything we know about the kind of people who are most vulnerable to this kind of propaganda. Many of them indeed have documented and pre-existing mental problems.
 
French (Euro) Islam needs a strong personality and plan. One of Mahatma Gandy, Nelson Mandela, Kemal Ataturk caliber to add another choise next to assimilation or ISIS.
 
French (Euro) Islam needs a strong personality and plan. One of Mahatma Gandy, Nelson Mandela, Kemal Ataturk caliber to add another choise next to assimilation or ISIS.

It depends what you mean by assimilation, Arvistro. In my opinion, there's no problem with being a Muslim in a western society, speaking your ancestral language at home, eating your ancestral foods, even marrying endogamously if that's your choice, but Europe, and America, are secular societies where civil law must be the only standard, not Sharia law. If immigrants can't accept that, then they should return to their home countries.

It shouldn't need to be said that there should be severe consequences for anyone advocating violence, not just practicing it.

I couldn't agree more that they desperately need a charismatic, courageous leader who is willing and able to talk openly to both sides, even if what he (or she) says is not very popular.
 
What I mean is that there is no strong and charismatic Arab voice promoting secular (what we call now European/ Western) values as Arabic values.
Not promoting European values to Arabs.

Basically same thing just different tone of color if that makes sense.
 
We can't denounce every Muslim for the actions of a small percentage of them. I can't imagine some Muslim physician who attends his child's soccer games waking up one morning and deciding its a good idea to strap a bomb to his body so he can blow up a restaurant.
 
They aren't "demented psychos". They are 100% sane Muslims, who know exactly what they are doing.
Another bold assumption of yours and you are wrong again. This one is a violent criminal. No surprise here, as we've seen very often with other terrorists. He has spent years in jail, got fired from work and clobbered a guy in a road rage. His wife and kids have restraining order against him.
 
Another bold assumption of yours and you are wrong again. This one is a violent criminal. No surprise here, as we've seen very often with other terrorists. He has spent years in jail, got fired from work and clobbered a guy in a road rage. His wife and kids have restraining order against him.
Exactly! These terrorists aren't anything like the 99.9 percent of Muslims walking around town. The man who drove the truck, the man who shot up the club house last month in Florida, the man who attacked the theater in Paris, etc all of these individuals would've carried out (or would've been happy to carry out) the crimes they did regardless of whether they were Muslim, Christian, atheist, scientologist, or belonged to the church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
 
And also, I bet if you pull aside a delusional, unsound man who follows religion x (I'm not singling out any religion) you can convince him that if he blows up a restaurant where enemies of his god are dining out, his god will float down from the heavens riding a dinosaur, and take him for a ride on his trusty lizard back to heaven where 30 hot virgins await him.
 
Another bold assumption of yours and you are wrong again. This one is a violent criminal. No surprise here, as we've seen very often with other terrorists. He has spent years in jail, got fired from work and clobbered a guy in a road rage. His wife and kids have restraining order against him.

It is the profile of most of the European ISIS fighters and terrorists.
There are thousands of them.
This would be the first one that has not been radicalised either by Muslim hate preachers or by ISIS propaganda.

What frightens me is that 'moderate Muslims' like in the Brussels suburbs don't condemn these people, they rather show solidarity and empathy with them.
By checking their computers and comments on social media many people have been identified as fundamentalist Muslims while none of their neighbours or even family suspected this.
Remember the Boston marathon bombing?
It is sometimes a thin line between moderate and fundamentalist Muslims.
 
And also, I bet if you pull aside a delusional, unsound man who follows religion x (I'm not singling out any religion) you can convince him that if he blows up a restaurant where enemies of his god are dining out, his god will float down from the heavens riding a dinosaur, and take him for a ride on his trusty lizard back to heaven where 30 hot virgins await him.

The biggest chance of succeeding in this is by Islam doctrine.
It fits their stories and vocabulary they used since their origin 1300 years ago till now in many parts of the world.
Mohammed himself was a warlord.
The shia-sunny split and murderers being promoted as martyrs exist since the 2nd generation after Mohammed.

The Old Testament is about revenge. The Koran is even worse.
The New Testament is more about compasion and forgiving.

It depends on what you emphasize to get the approaval of many followers.
 
It is the profile of most of the European ISIS fighters and terrorists.
There are thousands of them.
I didn't know you have a survey of terrorists in Europe. Why not a million?
This would be the first one that has not been radicalised either by Muslim hate preachers or by ISIS propaganda.
Who said he wasn't radicalized? The point was that he wasn't a normal person, a normal Muslim, who got radicalized. He was, like many others, a violent criminal who got radicalized. Got that?!
You have to be certain type of a man to get radicalize and ready to die by your choice and in process killing many civilians.

What frightens me is that 'moderate Muslims' like in the Brussels suburbs don't condemn these people, they rather show solidarity and empathy with them
I guess you don't have moderate Muslims in Brussels suburbs.

By checking their computers and comments on social media many people have been identified as fundamentalist Muslims while none of their neighbours or even family suspected this.
Remember the Boston marathon bombing?
It is sometimes a thin line between moderate and fundamentalist Muslims.
I don't get your logic at all. Who of the terrorists were the moderate Muslims? Give example.
 
I didn't know you have a survey of terrorists in Europe. Why not a million?

there are some 450 known Belgian Syrian fighters and some 1700 known French Sirya fighters
so make your own guess

Who said he wasn't radicalized? The point was that he wasn't a normal person, a normal Muslim, who got radicalized. He was, like many others, a violent criminal who got radicalized. Got that?!
You have to be certain type of a man to get radicalize and ready to die by your choice and in process killing many civilians.


I don't get your logic at all. Who of the terrorists were the moderate Muslims? Give example.

most of them are small criminals, some of them are very naive
you should hear the story of many young women who join the ISIS fighters, how naive they are

the point is how many moderate Muslims sympathise with those lunatics
it makes those lunatics believe they are doing the right thing

I guess you don't have moderate Muslims in Brussels suburbs.
you should come and see for yourself, they wouldn't hurt a fly
but if you stay long enough the picture changes
 
Angela,don't excuse terrorisme by talking about mental illness.
http://forward.com/opinion/325260/the-problem-with-attributing-islamic-terrorism-to-root-causes/
In fact, the common theme of Islamic terror — whether it targets France or America or Israel, whether it targets Christians, Jews or Muslims — is a goal to destroy those who represent a desire to lead a different kind of life simply because they want to live their own lives.

I'm not excusing anyone driving a 60 ton truck into a crowd of families, Gyms. Surely you know that. However, if we're going to fight this thing we have to understand what's going on, and that includes getting a sort of "profile"of the perpetrators. That's something with which I have some experience.

What I'm trying to explain is that in the west many, if not most, of these "home grown" terrorists seem to have long histories of mental illness and/or criminality and violence. I think that may be because, at least in the U.S., the majority of Muslims are integrated into our society to some extent, so these are the only people who can be influenced enough by the propaganda to take these kinds of actions.

The problem is with the ideology, the propaganda. My major concern, frankly, is not that any significant number of American Muslims will be persuaded to commit these kinds of atrocities. Not as things stand now. My concern is because there is a concerted effort by these propagandists to preach this ideology in our prisons, to a heavily black population already somewhat inured to violence, many of whom are indeed alienated from "white" society, and many of whom do indeed, in my opinion, suffer from mental illnesses.

What I fear may happen, if a too heavy handed approach is taken, is that "normal", average, law abiding Muslim Americans will also become radicalized. This is indeed possible. Since you reference "The Standard", I think the continued Israeli tolerance of the building of settlements on the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and particularly the bulldozing of the homes of the families of terrorists is incredibly misguided as well as inhumane. They just increase the hatred already festering there. France is walking a thin line in this regard. I have a feeling it's very different in Sweden, although you would know better, but the French are very tough in terms of policing and counter-terrorism and they've gotten a lot tougher in the last year. Speaking to people who have some knowledge of it, the interaction with the Muslim population has gotten much more intrusive; it makes our now discredited stop and frisk procedures look like a child's game. However, go too far, and it could devolve into civil war.

I don't, to be clear, agree with Davef that the Muslims who would do this constitute .1% of the population. The number who have some sympathy with them is even higher, particularly in Europe.* What Europeans should be asking themselves, in my opinion, is why is that the case, why the discrepancy? Yes, I know, we've gotten different kinds of immigrants to some extent. However, in my opinion, it's also because while they were allowed to immigrate when times were good and they could be useful doing menial work, or in Scandinavia perhaps out of humanitarian motives, there was never any real effort to integrate them. Now, the jobs have dried up, and they sit in their isolated housing units, virtual ghettos you built for them, and the young, especially, who are in limbo because they're not accepted as Europeans, but they're also not Somalis or Algerians or whatever, either, are ripe for this kind of propaganda. I don't understand how this couldn't have been foreseen, but then I think that a lot as I see the stupidity exhibited by the people in charge of these decisions.

It's easy to react emotionally to horrific events. but if we're to solve these problems we have to react rationally, instead.

*http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34967994

Btw, in terms of immigration, yes, I think immigrants should be intensively screened. When my family and I went to the U.S., the American consulate investigated my parents' political associations to a quite incredible degree, to see if they had any questionable associations. There were health checks as well, for TB and other infectious diseases, including sexually transmitted ones. In addition to all of that, my father had to have work skills. I don't see why immigrants now should have more lenient standards applied to them. In terms of questionable associations I would include membership in extreme right wing, quasi-Nazi "white" organizations like those all over eastern Europe and even in countries like Hungary, and people from the Balkans who had any association with the ultra nationalist organizations there which were involved in violence against their neighbors. I don't want you in any country of mine.

@Arvistro,
I find it hard to believe that every Muslim resident of Brussels is a terrorist in waiting. I think there's a lot of hyperbole going on.
 
there are some 450 known Belgian Syrian fighters and some 1700 known French Sirya fighters
so make your own guess
So they are in Syria and not in Europe.


most of them are small criminals, some of them are very naive
you should hear the story of many young women who join the ISIS fighters, how naive they are
I think all of the fighter are naive in their beliefs, but why do you exclude them having psychological problems? I was young a naive once long ago too, I suppose you were one too. But knowing myself I would never ever become a terrorist, no matter for what cause. I'm not the type. You need a special type of people and most them, if not all, have psychological problems and violent history. They are also not the very religious type either, as you can see on latest examples of terrorists.

the point is how many moderate Muslims sympathise with those lunatics
it makes those lunatics believe they are doing the right thing
Yes, how many? I'm sure you can throw a number on it.
 
The Limits of Democratization:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmWIOByI3FU#t=2m32s

^^^

“Sorry if that makes some people feel bad, but I’m not in the ‘make people feel good business’; I’m a scientist.” - Thomas Holtz

What makes me feel bad, Tomenable, is that someone as obviously intelligent as you are gets so much of his "information" from discredited, fringe theorists like Nyborg whose work is disseminated by cult like, racist websites.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmuth_Nyborg

It's particularly ironic given how upset it makes you that Islamist radicals are polluting the airwaves with their crap. These sites are just as reprehensible and destructive. Please don't assume the "research" posted there is definitive.
 
Arvistro,
I find it hard to believe that every Muslim resident of Brussels is a terrorist in waiting. I think there's a lot of hyperbole going on.
Of course. I was commenting on argument usage in discussion. Not on the issue itself.
As to issue itself. 20% is a big number for an interview where the interviewer knows the phone number of respondent. Like in Latvian elections exit polls always show less support to radical parties than actually voted for...
So, we might look at some 30% actually of sympathizers in London. How many in Brussels suburbs? Not less is my guess. Would they all 30% turn into terorists? No. Would they mourn dead in Nice? No...
 
Of course. I was commenting on argument usage in discussion. Not on the issue itself.
As to issue itself. 20% is a big number for an interview where the interviewer knows the phone number of respondent. Like in Latvian elections exit polls always show less support to radical parties than actually voted for...
So, we might look at some 30% actually of sympathizers in London. How many in Brussels suburbs? Not less is my guess. Would they all 30% turn into terorists? No. Would they mourn dead in Nice? No...

OK, got it. We have the same phenomenon with our exit polling, by the way, and even with pre-election day polls; people just don't tell the truth, they give the less controversial answer.

I do think, though, that I'd like to see some more nuanced questioning. What does it mean that you sympathize with them? Does it mean you support their goals, or does it mean that you understand their alienation and how they could have been driven to this? One context would worry me a lot more than the other.
 
Back
Top