Genetic of Italy (also taken from Wikipedia)

Perhaps some of the issues with the old test algorithm (FTDNA lab version) was that it was misidentifying ancient populations that are shared with some of those other groups from tens of thousands of years ago. Maybe it picked up clues that they places into the pre-determined categories for the old algorithm; which probably why they updated the software for the International version.
 
MOESAN said:
My impression is that these classifications has no mean either for ancient heritage or historical moves. just my opinion: 'eastern euro' is too extended of a bag, among others...
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more with you, Moesan.
 
I had e-mailed Dr. Miguel Vilar to come in, to clarify what the regional components mean. He's the head scientist of the Genographic Project since Spencer Wells left. He was also a co-author to papers like this

vqSLmZY.png


https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-01802-4

LmWf2H3.png


https://www.nature.com/articles/srep41614

https://www.linkedin.com/in/miguel-vilar-ab574874/

xtcdY0s.png


This was a little over a week ago, I would imagine he's a very busy guy. Nevertheless, I will follow up with him in a few days.
 
Maciamo said:
Considering your background I think your results make sense, except that your Northeast and East European are a bit high for Italy. That kind of admixture would have normally come from the Goths, or perhaps to a lower extent from Albanians settling in Puglia. But with 23andMe I have never seen more than 0.5% of Eastern European in South Italy. The 4% of NW European could be Lombard or Frankish and that is in line with 23andMe averages for South Italy.
Click to expand...

Here's a PM I'm sharing with Maciamo's permission, from when I asked him to help me understand my autosomal percentages from the National Geographic test.
 
Jovialis said:
Here's a PM I'm sharing with Maciamo's permission, from when I asked him to help me understand my autosomal percentages from the National Geographic test.
Click to expand...

The East Europe AC maybe reflect the massive Illyrian migration in Puglia 3500 Years ago.
cf68394398f161027b22a493aa4e8947.jpg
 
@ Pax Augusta,

To answer your questions from the other thread:

Thanks for providing the information for the HGDP sample. But where did it say it was towards south Tuscany towards Lazio? I was looking for it, but couldn't find the information for the location specifically.

Also, for TSI I was referring to the location of Citta X, which can't be determined due to them intentionally hiding it.
 
Salento said:
The East Europe AC maybe reflect the Illyrian migration in Puglia 3500 Years ago.
Click to expand...

That's what I was thinking, when I initially saw it in addition to the Northeastern admixture in my results. Perhaps its from the Iapygians.

But I think the north eastern could be from Normans, or Goths (as Maciamo said). Especially since it would be more recent.
 
Last edited:
Jovialis said:
@ Pax Augusta,
To answer your questions from the other thread:
Thanks for providing the information for the HGDP sample. But where did it say it was towards south Tuscany towards Lazio?
Click to expand...

From the Ceph coordinates that lead to the province of Grosseto.


http://www.cephb.fr/hgdp/main.php
5odAMSh.png



Jovialis said:
Also, I was referring to the location of Citta X, which can't be determined due to them intentionally hiding it.
Click to expand...


Of course I'm aware of that. By searching I found both the time when that sample was collected and the area of ​​provenance. Of course I could not get a confirmation because of privacy laws they are hiding the exact location.
 
Pax Augusta said:
From the Ceph coordinates that bring to the province of Grosseto.

http://www.cephb.fr/hgdp/main.php
5odAMSh.png




Of course I'm aware of that. By searching I found both the time when that sample was collected and the area of ​​provenance. Of course I could not get a confirmation because of privacy laws they are hiding the exact location.
Click to expand...

I see thanks for the clarification.

I noticed before you commented on the sample size. Is there a difference in larger samples vs smaller samples, when determining averages?

Edit:

Also, in regards to the flawed 2012 study, would you say it's at least reliable for southern Italian populations?
 
Jovialis said:
I see thanks for the clarification.
I noticed before you commented on the sample size. Is there a difference in larger samples vs smaller samples, when determining averages?
Click to expand...
In theory no. But bigger is a sample and more outliers can have. And the problem with TSI is that they often do not use the whole sample, but only sub-sets.
Jovialis said:
Also, in regards to the flawed 2012 study, would you say it's at least reliable for southern Italian populations?
Click to expand...

Least reliable?


The most reliable is Fiorito 2015 (but he used mostly western Italians except Ferrara). And then Sazzini 2016 (he covered also eastern Italian regions but it's less good than Fiorito's paper in my opinion).

Fiorito 2015
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31707-The-Italian-Genome-Fiorito-et-al-2015

Sazzini 2016
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...se-susceptibility-along-the-Italian-peninsula

And then specifically on southern Italians there is the Sarno's paper.
 
Pax Augusta said:
Least reliable?
Click to expand...

Sorry, English is kind of weird like that. I didn't mean least reliable. I meant to say, is it reliable.

"At least" is an expression, it means, if nothing else. This is something I need to take more consideration with.

To put it more clearly, this is what I meant to say:

Would the 2012 chart be reliable for where the southerners are placed
 
"Almeno" in Inglese parlato:
At Lest / At Minimum
 
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5070887/
NVgMEs4.png
Click to expand...

Looks like they only took samples from a few select regions. I wish they would attempt to collect samples from all of them. Nevertheless, even that would be very problematic.

As you said in the other thread about the Peloponnese, in regards to the Sicilians; there was re-colonization in some areas. I mentioned a many of times on other threads, my dad's town in Puglia was re-colonized as well in the 1200s. Lots of areas were de-populated and abandoned previously. So we don't even know where they could of came from before that. I also wonder how much feudalism in the South effected the gene pool. There was low-mobility between people, and the average peasant spent most of their lives within the confines of the city walls. It was usually dangerous to venture out, due to banditry, and vagabonds. Making towns essentially like islands, probably causing genetic drift. Which is why I usually take exception to generalization of the genetic history of the South. Even within Puglia, within the province Bari, there's different history, culture, and unique dialects that are exclusive to single towns. I even see some physiological differences between my mother's family, and my father's family; and they're both from the same province, but different towns. In addition to that, the Griko, and Arbëreshë influence on certain parts of the south. Ultimately, I think it really comes down to the town people are from, rather than broader geographic regions; at least when it comes to the South. I think this also helps to explain the clannish mentality southerners are known for. But despite these differences, there's a large degree of homogeneity among the southerners, as we see from the PCAs.
 
Pax Augusta said:
From the Ceph coordinates that lead to the province of Grosseto.


http://www.cephb.fr/hgdp/main.php
5odAMSh.png






Of course I'm aware of that. By searching I found both the time when that sample was collected and the area of ​​provenance. Of course I could not get a confirmation because of privacy laws they are hiding the exact location.
Click to expand...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4170574/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4170574/figure/F1/

Y0iKUNg.png

LeNGofR.png



These are the locations of the other points on the map.

EDIT:

I see that this is at least three years old, and do not include some of the newly discovered ancient people like the Caucasus Hunter-gatherers

http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/...ted-with-hunter-gatherers-isolated-by-ice-age

Populations of hunter-gatherers weathered Ice Age in apparent isolation in Caucasus mountain region for millennia, later mixing with other ancestral populations, from which emerged the Yamnaya culture that would bring this Caucasus hunter-gatherer lineage to Western Europe.




This Caucasus pocket is the fourth major strand of ancient European ancestry, one that we were unaware of until now
Andrea Manica​
The first sequencing of ancient genomes extracted from human remains that date back to the Late Upper Palaeolithic period over 13,000 years ago has revealed a previously unknown “fourth strand” of ancient European ancestry.
This new lineage stems from populations of hunter-gatherers that split from western hunter-gatherers shortly after the ‘out of Africa’ expansion some 45,000 years ago and went on to settle in the Caucasus region, where southern Russia meets Georgia today.
Here these hunter-gatherers largely remained for millennia, becoming increasingly isolated as the Ice Age culminated in the last ‘Glacial Maximum’ some 25,000 years ago, which they weathered in the relative shelter of the Caucasus mountains until eventual thawing allowed movement and brought them into contact with other populations, likely from further east.
This led to a genetic mixture that resulted in the Yamnaya culture: horse-borne Steppe herders that swept into Western Europe around 5,000 years ago, arguably heralding the start of the Bronze Age and bringing with them metallurgy and animal herding skills, along with the Caucasus hunter-gatherer strand of ancestral DNA – now present in almost all populations from the European continent.
The research was conducted by an international team led by scientists from Cambridge University, Trinity College Dublin and University College Dublin. The findings are published today in the journal Nature Communications.
“The question of where the Yamnaya come from has been something of a mystery up to now,” said one of the lead senior authors Dr Andrea Manica, from Cambridge’s Department of Zoology.
“We can now answer that as we’ve found that their genetic make-up is a mix of Eastern European hunter-gatherers and a population from this pocket of Caucasus hunter-gatherers who weathered much of the last Ice Age in apparent isolation. This Caucasus pocket is the fourth major strand of ancient European ancestry, one that we were unaware of until now,” he said
Professor Daniel Bradley, leader of the Trinity team, said: “This is a major new piece in the human ancestry jigsaw, the influence of which is now present within almost all populations from the European continent and many beyond.”
Previously, ancient Eurasian genomes had revealed three ancestral populations that contributed to contemporary Europeans in varying degrees, says Manica.
Following the ‘out of Africa’ expansion, some hunter-gatherer populations migrated north-west, eventually colonising much of Europe from Spain to Hungary, while other populations settled around the eastern Mediterranean and Levant, where they would develop agriculture around 10,000 years ago. These early farmers then expanded into and colonised Europe.
Lastly, at the start of the Bronze Age around 5,000 years ago, there was a wave of migration from central Eurasia into Western Europe – the Yamnaya.
However, the sequencing of ancient DNA recovered from two separate burials in Western Georgia – one over 13,000 years old, the other almost 10,000 years old – has enabled scientists to reveal that the Yamnaya owed half their ancestry to previously unknown and genetically distinct hunter-gatherer sources: the fourth strand.
By reading the DNA, the researchers were able to show that the lineage of this fourth Caucasus hunter-gatherer strand diverged from the western hunter-gatherers just after the expansion of anatomically modern humans into Europe from Africa.
The Caucasus hunter-gatherer genome showed a continued mixture with the ancestors of the early farmers in the Levant area, which Manica says makes sense given the relative proximity. This ends, however, around 25,000 years ago – just before the time of the last glacial maximum, or peak Ice Age.
At this point, Caucasus hunter-gatherer populations shrink as the genes homogenise, a sign of breeding between those with increasingly similar DNA. This doesn’t change for thousands of years as these populations remain in apparent isolation in the shelter of the mountains – possibly cut off from other major ancestral populations for as long as 15,000 years – until migrations began again as the Glacial Maximum recedes, and the Yamnaya culture ultimately emerges.
satsurblia-cave-georgia-where-one-ancient-bone-was-sampled-for-genetic-sequencing.jpg

“We knew that the Yamnaya had this big genetic component that we couldn’t place, and we can now see it was this ancient lineage hiding in the Caucasus during the last Ice Age,” said Manica.
While the Caucasus hunter-gatherer ancestry would eventually be carried west by the Yamnaya, the researchers found it also had a significant influence further east. A similar population must have migrated into South Asia at some point, says Eppie Jones, a PhD student from Trinity College who is the first author of the paper.
“India is a complete mix of Asian and European genetic components. The Caucasus hunter-gatherer ancestry is the best match we’ve found for the European genetic component found right across modern Indian populations,” Jones said. Researchers say this strand of ancestry may have flowed into the region with the bringers of Indo-Aryan languages.
The widespread nature of the Caucasus hunter-gatherer ancestry following its long isolation makes sense geographically, says Professor Ron Pinhasi, a lead senior author from University College Dublin. “The Caucasus region sits almost at a crossroads of the Eurasian landmass, with arguably the most sensible migration routes both west and east in the vicinity.”
He added: “The sequencing of genomes from this key region will have a major impact on the fields of palaeogeneomics and human evolution in Eurasia, as it bridges a major geographic gap in our knowledge.”
David Lordkipanidze, Director of the Georgian National Museum and co-author of the paper, said: “This is the first sequence from Georgia – I am sure soon we will get more palaeogenetic information from our rich collections of fossils.”
Inset image: the view from the Satsurblia cave in Western Georgia, where a human right temporal bone dating from over 13,000 years ago was discovered. DNA extracted from this bone was used in the new research.
Click to expand...

4QtvHAk.jpg


​https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms9912
 
Last edited:
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.

This thread has been viewed 260476 times.

Back
Top