Archaeology as a political weapon

[halfalp]

When i read my previous post, i understand how much i struggle to express myself in english.

 

[Salento]

imo We are tribal by Nature, and when we are away from our land of origin we seek each other. We are comfortable around people that we can relate to, and with things in common.
In the USA there are Clubs for every Denomination, Country, even Towns.
Besides 1 or 2 members ( Every Club has a couple of Idiots) we don’t have, or display Feeling of Superiority, and the same apply to the other Clubs.
Italians, Greeks, Polish, ....., and others, are Proud of their own Heritage, and just because are members of an Ethnic Organization, they should not be confused as followers of Extremist Ideology.
That said, most of us are also Proud Americans, and we Melt with everybody else in our daily life.

 

[Silesian]

Fortunately not (I mean on the "gated or heavily guarded community", not the "predominantly European" part, lol). But I know they exist. What did they tell you? That racists do not exist here? If it's something along these lines, it's a myth, a well protected myth because racists in Brazil tend to be very low profile, and not very vocal as in other places. As I said, they're in fact a tiny but annoying minority of people, mainly concentrated in the South of Brazil and São Paulo, which are simultaneously the wealthiest (and thus there is as always those who think that the poorer, less white populations must be inherently inferior and are a "burden to the nation") and the most predominantly European parts of Brazil. That's why there are some Nordicist people, they're a pain in the ass, but are actuall very few in numbers............................................................... (outspoken racism is a crime in Brazil).

People often say one thing, however in private will have a completely different stance/view. Have you ever known for any forum moderator to admit they made a mistake banning someone? Have you ever known a politician to have gone in front of all the people that put their trust in their governance to have admitted a mistake [in their judgement that caused harm to the very same people/families]Have you ever known a politician to have put their own personal welfare and security below those who have put their trust in them? Have you ever known bureaucrats to not go against an elected leader/politician- with a mandate to eliminate corruption and crime to go away peacefully without a fight?
I had a nice conversation with a gentleman from Guyana who schooled me and taught me many valuable ideas without having to visit Guyana. He had visited a city in Brazil and made a decision within the first three weeks that Brazil was not for him. Since I had exchanged ideas on many occasions with other Brazilians, about what made them move away; his reasoning/logic[Guyanese] was the same/similar.

Many people cherish-highly prize= safety[low-non-existent rates murder/rape/violence to women/children/pets- in general to their loved ones and the community they live in] and free environment where their assets are[protected] not robbed by criminal's, through bribery corruption; or through taxation of career politicians and or career bureaucrats.

 

[Angela]

imo We are tribal by Nature, and when we are away from our land of origin we seek each other. We are comfortable around people that we can relate to, and with things in common.
In the USA there are Clubs for every Denomination, Country, even Towns.
Besides 1 or 2 members ( Every Club has a couple of Idiots) we don’t have, or display Feeling of Superiority, and the same apply to the other Clubs.
Italians, Greeks, Polish, ....., and others, are Proud of their own Heritage, and just because are members of an Ethnic Organization, they should not be confused as followers of Extremist Ideology.
That said, most of us are also Proud Americans, and we Melt with everybody else in our daily life.

I think that's absolutely correct.

That's why I'm so appalled sometimes at the attitudes one ethnic group holds about another even here on the site.

I'll give an example from Europe but not an issue that's ever been raised here.

I was just watching a show about someone born and bred in Northern Ireland and related to "The Troubles". It explains how the Protestant "Orange Lodges" created to celebrate the role of the Prince of Orange in the defeat of the "native" Catholic Irish would until quite recently deliberately march through Catholic neighborhoods. Obviously it was to rub their noses in that centuries old defeat, but it also highlighted to the Catholics, of course, how they were discriminated against in housing, but more importantly, in jobs.

Why the hell would you do that? Why is it necessary?

Why can't you just be proud of who you are without trying to constantly show how you're better than someone else.I don't know, maybe it's human nature for some people, but it's not a trait I share, and it's very destructive.

 

[Ygorcs]

People often say one thing, however in private will have a completely different stance/view. Have you ever known for any forum moderator to admit they made a mistake banning someone? Have you ever known a politician to have gone in front of all the people that put their trust in their governance to have admitted a mistake [in their judgement that caused harm to the very same people/families]Have you ever known a politician to have put their own personal welfare and security below those who have put their trust in them? Have you ever known bureaucrats to not go against an elected leader/politician- with a mandate to eliminate corruption and crime to go away peacefully without a fight?
I had a nice conversation with a gentleman from Guyana who schooled me and taught me many valuable ideas without having to visit Guyana. He had visited a city in Brazil and made a decision within the first three weeks that Brazil was not for him. Since I had exchanged ideas on many occasions with other Brazilians, about what made them move away; his reasoning/logic[Guyanese] was the same/similar.

Many people cherish-highly prize= safety[low-non-existent rates murder/rape/violence to women/children/pets- in general to their loved ones and the community they live in] and free environment where their assets are[protected] not robbed by criminal's, through bribery corruption; or through taxation of career politicians and or career bureaucrats.

Yes, yes, okay, but so what? Your rant sounds confused. That has absolutely nothing to do with the topic nor even with the off-topic subject we are discussing here. Nobody - certainly not I - is stuck in a childish, petty international competition. I'm well past that. Also, I am an individual using the nickname Ygorcs, not the personification of a 210 million populous country called Brazil. So, honestly, the content of your post sounds pretty useless and meaningless to me at least for this moment, so I'll refrain from commenting any further. It just seems you want to make some point about an entire nationality or people, and I don't even have any will to know what it actually is. I suspect it's nothing really relevant nor good. So, case closed.

Now go back to the topic and cease your ad hominem ramblings, okay? You've said even mora than you should've. You've now been warned. Bye!

 

[Ygorcs]

Ygorcs, it's not just you. I can't even remember the number of times people have said or implied that I hold a certain position because I'm Italian.

It's as if it's inconceivable that when discussing an intellectual matter I'm incapable of being objective. The implication is also, of course, that the person accusing me of that is himself perfectly objective. Sometimes I do get annoyed, especially because so much of my training and work experience has revolved around doing everything possible to remove my personal feelings and values from a situation and looking rigidly only at verifiable proof and logic.

However, I've learned to let things like that slide or I'd be permanently in a rage. That kind of thing is the last resort of someone who can't counter your arguments.

Fwiw, I think the implication was that you spout what people like this would call "liberal" attitudes towards poorer, non-white Brazilians from the safety of an all European gated community. The latter, if true, would invalidate anything you might say.

Yes, Angela, I have seen that kind of attitude towards you once here. I think these people are making their impressions and judgements on people like us based on their own (subpar) standards of objectivity, reasonability and scientific interest (not one that is more and more obviously guided by a personal or collective agenda that wants to use the past as a mere tool to make a point in present political/ideological controversies).

So, it's kind of understandable, they can't even conceive the possibility that someone is well more mature, rational and simply dispassionate/disinteresed about historical and more broadly any scientific issues than themselves. Poor guys. As for those assumptions that you correctly interpreted, they are so absurdly simplistic and out of touch with my own reality and the reality of Brazil that I can only pity the lack of knowledge about the world.

Fortunately I have no issue accepting the positive and hideous aspects of the demographic/genetic history of my country and of the entire world. It is what it is, and there is no reason to be either proud or ashamed of things we, as individuals, have nothing to do with centuries or milennia ago, if not for anything else at least because by the present time we descend from so many different people and cultures that it's ridiculous to feel like you "own" or "belong to" to one specific ancestral source among so many others.

I'm perfectly reconciled with all those complex processes that led to us all, living people, and if anything I, having unquestionable European, African and Amerindian roots, with recent ancestry derived from - basically - conquerors+slaves+defeated nations, feel I can be more neutral than many supposedly "pure" people here or elsewhere. All of those ancestries matter, not just the sometimes glorified winners. It's kind of funny how childishly some people get triggered by the passing comment on how ludicrous it is to boast about being descended of so-called steppe conquerors while neglecting the huge chunk of their own ancestry that comes directly from the local defeated societies.

 

[Jovialis]

Yes, Angela, I have seen that kind of attitude towards you once here. I think these people are making their impressions and judgements on people like us based on their own (subpar) standards of objectivity, reasonability and scientific interest (not one that is more and more obviously guided by a personal or collective agenda that wants to use the past as a mere tool to make a point in present political/ideological controversies).

So, it's kind of understandable, they can't even conceive the possibility that someone is well more mature, rational and simply dispassionate/disinteresed about historical and more broadly any scientific issues than themselves. Poor guys. As for those assumptions that you correctly interpreted, they are so absurdly simplistic and out of touch with my own reality and the reality of Brazil that I can only pity the lack of knowledge about the world.

Fortunately I have no issue accepting the positive and hideous aspects of the demographic/genetic history of my country and of the entire world. It is what it is, and there is no reason to be either proud or ashamed of things we, as individuals, have nothing to do with centuries or milennia ago, if not for anything else at least because by the present time we descend from so many different people and cultures that it's ridiculous to feel like you "own" or "belong to" to one specific ancestral source among so many others.

I'm perfectly reconciled with all those complex processes that led to us all, living people, and if anything I, having unquestionable European, African and Amerindian roots, with recent ancestry derived from - basically - conquerors+slaves+defeated nations, feel I can be more neutral than many supposedly "pure" people here or elsewhere. All of those ancestries matter, not just the sometimes glorified winners. It's kind of funny how childishly some people get triggered by the passing comment on how ludicrous it is to boast about being descended of so-called steppe conquerors while neglecting the huge chunk of their own ancestry that comes directly from the local defeated societies.

I think it's fine to be proud of your ancestry, and culture, just as long as it isn't used to justify superiority, hate, or genocide. I'm proud to be Italian, I'm interested in learning about my history, and culture. But I also have a big appreciation for learning about other cultures as well.

 

[Ygorcs]

I think it's fine to be proud of your ancestry, and culture, just as long as it isn't used to justify superiority, hate, or genocide. I'm proud to be Italian, I'm interested in learning about my history, and culture. But I also have a big appreciation for learning about other cultures as well.

Yes, but that legitimate pride should not become a dangerously unrealistic, essentialist and biased (why do only some people - the winners mostly - matter, and not the cultural/genetic contributions of others, especially the "losers"?) myth. We see that in something like projecting one's modern ethnicity to thousands of years ago, as if the people and its context were essentially always the same, primordial and "pure", and there was an immediate, unmixed, line linking them with people living in 2018.

Nor should that pride interfere with one's evaluations of genetic, archaeological or whatever evidence about the history of one's country/culture/people. When you let your appreciation for this or that culture, or your modern attachment to this or that ethnic group lead you to accept or reject this or that theory/hypothesis, then it's clear your scientific interest has been unredeemably tainted with confirmation bias and too much subjectivity.

Just like you, I love my nation, I love being Brazilian, but that will never blind me to the complex and often convoluted and harsh realities of our historic formation as a people/country. The good and the bad aspects are all part of who we became and are now. And even if they were not, they're still the truth regardless of how useful or useless, positive or negative they may be to living people right now.

It's fine to be interested in one's people's ethnicity, but forgive me if I must say I'm deeply suspicious of anyone who not only appreciates it, but instead glorifies and fetishizes it as some kind of untouchable thing that must only have positive and heroic origins. Since this position is obviously out of touch with reality, one's opinions on matters of history and culture will become totally skewed and simplistic, tending to favor this or that for mere "convenience", even when it doesn't fit the available evidences.

 

[Jovialis]

Yes, but that legitimate pride should not become a dangerously unrealistic and essentialist myth (something like projecting one's modern ethnicity to thousands of years ago, as if the people and its context were essentially always the same, primordial and "pure"). Nor should it interfere with one's evaluations of genetic, archaeological or whatever evidence about the history of one's country/culture/people. When you let your appreciation for this or that culture, or your modern attachment to this or that ethnic group lead you to accept or reject this or that theory/hypothesis, then it's clear your scientific interest has been unredeemably tainted with confirmation bias and too much subjectivity.

It's fine to be interested in one's people's ethnicity, but forgive me if I must say I'm deeply suspicious of anyone who not only appreciates it, but instead glorifies and fetishizes it as some kind of untouchable thing that must only have positive and heroic origins. Since this position is obviously out of touch with reality, one's opinions on matters of history and culture will become totally skewed and simplistic, tending to favor this or that for mere "convenience", even when it doesn't fit the available evidences.

I agree that biased evaluation of scientific data should not be taken seriously. Nevertheless, as long as they don't exhibit violent/thugish or radical tendencies, I don't feel suspicious of people that are very proud of their country imo.

 

[Ygorcs]

I agree that biased evaluation of scientific data should not be taken seriously. Nevertheless, as far as suspicion of people that are very proud of their country, as long as they don't exhibit violent/thugish or radical tendencies, they're fine imo.

Oh, yes, if they aren't racist nor ethnocentric, they're fine, but, well, I can't help not taking them very seriously if what they do is really glorify and idolize their origins too much, because I'm afraid that, when you not just appreciate your past, but turn it into a "dogma" that is an essential part of your self-esteem/sense of pride, then it may be very difficult to be unbiased and objective, especially when the narrative the evidences point out is not exactly heroic nor puts their ancestors in a positive light.

 

[Jovialis]

Oh, yes, if they aren't racist nor ethnocentric, they're fine, but, well, I can't help not taking them very seriously if what they do is really glorify and idolize their origins too much, because I'm afraid that, when you not just appreciate your past, but turn it into a "dogma" that is an essential part of your self-esteem/sense of pride, then it may be very difficult to be unbiased and objective, especially when the narrative the evidences point out is not exactly heroic nor puts their ancestors in a positive light.

I think that if someone's proud of their ethnicity, it would essentially be part of their sense of pride; I think it is natural for people to feel this way. Nevertheless, if that get's in the way of interpreting the facts, than it would make them an unreliable person. However, I think it is very apparent if they try to deny claims that have been accepted by the majority of the scientific community, that have been settled. People can be proud of who they are, and love their country, culture, people and history; but they need to accept the facts. When they deny the facts, or try to prove an untenable narrative, it is most apparent they are agenda driven.

 

[firetown]

I think it's fine to be proud of your ancestry,

In terms of which part of one's ancestry exactly? The man-made part regarding a nationality? Or the genetic part? And how exactly are you proud of something you've had no influence over? Pride in own accomplishments I can see. But simply based on birth?

 

[Jovialis]

In terms of which part of one's ancestry exactly? The man-made part regarding a nationality? Or the genetic part? And how exactly are you proud of something you've had no influence over? Pride in own accomplishments I can see. But simply based on birth?

Which part exactly? All of it that makes who I am, and my family. I had said in another thread, an ethnicity, is broadly defined as gradients of certain genetic admixtures, and a shared culture. I get what you're saying, but it is a fact, that many people feel a strong connection to groups they belong to.

 

[Salento]

In terms of which part of one's ancestry exactly? The man-made part regarding a nationality? Or the genetic part? And how exactly are you proud of something you've had no influence over? Pride in own accomplishments I can see. But simply based on birth?

Obviously you are Experiencing an Identity Crisis.
I’ve Diagnosed your “Condition” by your questions.

 

[LABERIA]

Yes, Angela, I have seen that kind of attitude towards you once here. I think these people are making their impressions and judgements on people like us based on their own (subpar) standards of objectivity, reasonability and scientific interest (not one that is more and more obviously guided by a personal or collective agenda that wants to use the past as a mere tool to make a point in present political/ideological controversies).

So, it's kind of understandable, they can't even conceive the possibility that someone is well more mature, rational and simply dispassionate/disinteresed about historical and more broadly any scientific issues than themselves. Poor guys. As for those assumptions that you correctly interpreted, they are so absurdly simplistic and out of touch with my own reality and the reality of Brazil that I can only pity the lack of knowledge about the world.

Fortunately I have no issue accepting the positive and hideous aspects of the demographic/genetic history of my country and of the entire world. It is what it is, and there is no reason to be either proud or ashamed of things we, as individuals, have nothing to do with centuries or milennia ago, if not for anything else at least because by the present time we descend from so many different people and cultures that it's ridiculous to feel like you "own" or "belong to" to one specific ancestral source among so many others.

I'm perfectly reconciled with all those complex processes that led to us all, living people, and if anything I, having unquestionable European, African and Amerindian roots, with recent ancestry derived from - basically - conquerors+slaves+defeated nations, feel I can be more neutral than many supposedly "pure" people here or elsewhere. All of those ancestries matter, not just the sometimes glorified winners. It's kind of funny how childishly some people get triggered by the passing comment on how ludicrous it is to boast about being descended of so-called steppe conquerors while neglecting the huge chunk of their own ancestry that comes directly from the local defeated societies.

From your words it seems that being a moderator in this forum is a difficult job, i dare even to say dangerous. I'm curious, are you paid to do this job, or are you just volunteers?

 

[Ygorcs]

From your words it seems that being a moderator in this forum is a difficult job, i dare even to say dangerous. I'm curious, are you paid to do this job, or are you just volunteers?

No, it's been actually very easy. I don't take these controversies on genetics/ethnicity/history as seriously and personally as some other members seem to. My self-esteem definitely does not depend on this or that topic of genetics and history. lol! I just accept what the evidences indicate as most probable, I myself have nothing to gain or to lose because of what hypothetical ancestors of mine did or did not do many centuries ago. I am proud of where I came from (not just, conveniently, some part of my ancestry, but all of it, including the "non prestigious" ones), but I know those people were very imperfect like us and had sometimes shockingly different values and practices. That's what life was.

Besides, I honestly don't think criticism or questioning are anything more than a thing to be expected or, at the worst case, an annoyance. Actually to be fair in this particular topic I don't think there has been anything directed against me just because I'm a moderator. What's a bit disturbing, of course, is that in fact I notice the criticism is more about who I am and where I come from, nor about what I do and what I say. So don't worry, man, I'm totally cool. lol!
Oh, and no, of course (and unfortunately lol) we are not paid, and in my specific case I didn't exactly "volunteer", I just accepted an invitation, that was all.

Now let's go back to the topic, which is actually very intriguing.

 

[markozd]

Obviously you are Experiencing an Identity Crisis.
I’ve Diagnosed your “Condition” by your questions.

Some people simply don't care. I certainly don't.

I'd abrogate my national and ethnic allegiances in a heartbeat if I could afford nice apartment in downtown Buenos Aires or something :embarassed:

 

[Salento]

Some people simply don't care. I certainly don't.

I'd abrogate my national and ethnic allegiances in a heartbeat if I could afford nice apartment in downtown Buenos Aires or something :embarassed:

If that’s a requirement to play the system to get ahead in life, I’m not going to cast a judgement on that.
Somebody that doesn’t care about a topic, doesn’t usually engage in a thread.
Anybody that feel the need to respond, imo They do Care.
If they didn’t, they wouldn’t bother stating their opinions.

 

[Jovialis]

Some people simply don't care. I certainly don't.

I'd abrogate my national and ethnic allegiances in a heartbeat if I could afford nice apartment in downtown Buenos Aires or something :embarassed:

My family moved to the United States, yet they still had an attachment to their ethnic origins, and continued to celebrate their traditions; so I don’t believe those things are mutually exclusive.

In terms of my nationality, I’m also proud to be an American.

 

[firetown]

doesn’t usually engage in a thread.

Completely agreed. But when you are searching for certain information and all you see is nationalistic topics on that subject, maybe... just maybe... you decide to make a comment just to either
a) help you understand that mindset (should a reasonable answer come along)
or
b) maybe make people understand how ridiculous (IMO) they are to pollute a forum designed for genetic research with insignificant opinions regarding man-made phenomena.

I have always viewed nationalism as a weakness. The need to be a part of something bigger without really having direct impact. We all have our weaknesses. But thankfully that is one I do not have. Thanks for your analysis. Am I free to assume you are not a professional in that area?