Paleo Balkan Languages

[markod]

Wow, so Lazaridis begins to show his total ignorance of the subject. He shared that stupid Balkan insight article everyone who knows nothing on the subject shares. This is the depth
of his knowledge on the matter. Either he is entirely ignorant, or he has malicious intentions.

This is outrageous coming from a Harvard scholar.

What's his agenda?

 

[Yetos]

Yetos, come on file. I'm interested in the topic of Paleo Balkan languages. I don't want another interesting closed thread because of this.

We both speak Paleo Balkan languages and have Paleo Balkan yDNA, with the difference of me wanting to be Albanian and you Greek.

Can you contribute with information on the language of the Makedonians.

I'm personally considering the possibility that Epirus and Makedonia have some links to Brygian together with Paeonian.

ok NIK

Brygian is considered the most close to primitive Greek,
by most Linguists,
I had wrote about Brygian in a thread in the forum,

the main problem about brygian or Phygian are words like Βεναγονος -γονος=-son compare Ander-son Bena-son Bena-gonos
until lately most Believed that Brygian was Satem language, cause Herodotus placed them with Thracian,

But Smerdaleos uses Hescychios of Alexandreia lexicon and othe known IE, uses toponym like river Cem Κινα/χινα Kena Cijevna etc (tabula peutigeneriana)
and enter to Katicic, Elsie, Mantzinger, Garcia Ramon, Polome, Pedersen, Krahe, works,
there he explains the Satem 1 and Satem 2 languages, Satem 1 is fully satemization, like Iranian,
in Satem 2, less/lower satemization, are only 2 languages, Albanian and Armenian,

his result is that there there should be 3-4 languages spoken in West balkans,

he proves that Brygian and Illyrian were Centum languages,
but he accepts that Brygian had a satem cover sound, which probably tricked Herodotus to place them as Thracians
compare cocolate tsokolate not kokolate
or Latin Cellarium, Greek Kellarion but Aromanian Cillar=tsilar
he spots the possible mistakes mainly of katicic and Pokome and proposes the above.

in the blog are just 4 paragraphs,
this must be propably a summary of a greater work, either published, either not yet,

he uses IE evolution, very well, he knows linguistic changes I could not even think.
and he seems pissed of with Ιλλυρiοδιφες = Illyrian linguistic 'expert magicians' or 'wise guys' (sometimes the word -διφης is used to describe not except, but 'wise guys' or 'I know all' )

it is good to find it in English

But generally Brygians are consider the 'layer' among Greek genesis area and other Aimos languages.
to some born in same area, to others they were neighbours,

what exactly you want to know?

 

[Johane Derite]

What's his agenda?

Am I a mindreader?

Like I said, the good faith argument is that he is clueless about the Albanian subject and honestly read the article and believed it and thats it.

However, in this good faith scenario though, it means he is incompetent entirely for the level at which he operates in the field of Archeogenetics (with heavy slanting on the Greek south europe area).

If his familiarities with the direct neighbours of Greeks, who have contributed the largest genetic influence on greek mainlanders, extend to balkan insight articles, that is just absurd and
a seriously negative reflection of the level of scholarship nowadays.

Arvanites contributed much more to Greeks than Slavs ever did in terms of genetics and culture.


However, the data from the international team of scientists found a startling exception: mainland Greeks, who seem to be genetically closer to Albanians than to their brethren in the Greek islands.

https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology...genetically-diverged-in-middle-ages-1.5489323




If Albanians are medival Dacian mass migration, then why is this missing entirely from the historical record? How did all the former illyrian territories get grabbed by these migrants without being
mentioned while smaller bands of celts, visigoths, normans, etc and then slavs are all recorded amply. Its purely absurd, especially with the genetic information we now have.

 

[markod]

If Albanians are medival Dacian mass migration, then why is this missing entirely from the historical record? How did all the former illyrian territories get grabbed by these migrants without being
mentioned while smaller bands of celts, visigoths, normans, etc and then slavs are all recorded amply. Its purely absurd, especially with the genetic information we now have.

I don't think this was the claim in the first place. The hypothesis is that the Albanian lived close to the early Vlachs south of the Danube in Moesia. The Slavs likely pushed them out of Moesia into the highlands and towards the coast.

 

[Johane Derite]

I don't think this was the claim in the first place. The hypothesis is that the Albanian lived close to the early Vlachs south of the Danube in Moesia. The Slavs likely pushed them out of Moesia into the highlands and towards the coast.

Except it does not explain the presence of Albanian in Alcmans works (1), it doesn't explain albanoid words in ancient pre-phillip Macedonia and Epirus (2). These falsify such a late entry, and from north east solely.

The Dardanians and other Illyrian like people in the Moesia region would also have been Albanoid speaking, and them being pushed down and contributing more "moesian" spectrum like
features to Albanian does not indicate that Illyria was a terra desserta. Its just a poor argument, that is invalidated by having western romance features at all:

Accentual Stratification of Ancient Greek Loanwords in Albanian by Martin Huld

"It is well known that Albanian possesses two strata of Romance loans clearly distinguished by the treatment of the consonant groups ct and x. 1) Due to the large number of Romance loans in Albanian, the data are abundant and well-documented (eg Meyer-Lübke 1904—06; 1054—55). A western or Dalmatian strain is attested by i drejtë 'straight, right-handed' < Lat diréctum (cf Vegliotic drat but Rum dreapt 'on the right side) and i shtrenjté (Gheg shtréjt with a nasalized vowel) dear, expensive' < *strinctum < Lat strictum, contaminated by the present tense of the finite verb, stringo, (cf Vegl stratbut Rum strimt).

Other loans, ascribable to the eastern or Dacian strain, are luftë fight' < *lucta (cf Lat luctätio*wrestling match' and Rum luptä'a war) and kofshé 'hip' < Lat coxa (cf Rum coapsä).

The most western illyrians would have been more pressured to become romanised first, and until 200 years ago there were still Dalmatian speakers. I dont doubt at all that under their latin, the substrate of Dalmatian
would have been Albanoid.

1

2

 

[gidai]

Languages, or also boundaries, politics, religions... are human products and can change from one generation to the next. It is very complicated, if not impossible to know exactly what was the situation 100-1000 generations ago... We waste time and wake up arguing in vain.

 

[markod]

Except it does not explain the presence of Albanian in Alcmans works (1), it doesn't explain albanoid words in ancient pre-phillip Macedonia and Epirus (2). These falsify such a late entry, and from north east solely.

The Dardanians and other Illyrian like people in the Moesia region would also have been Albanoid speaking, and them being pushed down and contributing more "moesian" spectrum like
features to Albanian does not indicate that Illyria was a terra desserta. Its just a poor argument, that is invalidated by having western romance features at all:

Accentual Stratification of Ancient Greek Loanwords in Albanian by Martin Huld

"It is well known that Albanian possesses two strata of Romance loans clearly distinguished by the treatment of the consonant groups ct and x. 1) Due to the large number of Romance loans in Albanian, the data are abundant and well-documented (eg Meyer-Lübke 1904—06; 1054—55). A western or Dalmatian strain is attested by i drejtë 'straight, right-handed' < Lat diréctum (cf Vegliotic drat but Rum dreapt 'on the right side) and i shtrenjté (Gheg shtréjt with a nasalized vowel) dear, expensive' < *strinctum < Lat strictum, contaminated by the present tense of the finite verb, stringo, (cf Vegl stratbut Rum strimt).

Other loans, ascribable to the eastern or Dacian strain, are luftë fight' < *lucta (cf Lat luctätio*wrestling match' and Rum luptä'a war) and kofshé 'hip' < Lat coxa (cf Rum coapsä).

The most western illyrians would have been more pressured to become romanised first, and until 200 years ago there were still Dalmatian speakers. I dont doubt at all that under their latin, the substrate of Dalmatian
would have been Albanoid.

1

2

Those seem like quite obscure researchers, and I wouldn't give too much credence to loans considering that the Albanian vocabulary underwent so many changes. It just seems dishonest to accuse Lazaridis of having an agenda when he's just voicing the consensus also supported by Orel and other authoritative researchers. The consensus might well turn out to be wrong, but that's what it looks like at the moment.

 

[Johane Derite]

Those seem like quite obscure researchers, and I wouldn't give too much credence to loans considering that the Albanian vocabulary underwent so many changes. It just seems dishonest to accuse Lazaridis of having an agenda when he's just voicing the consensus also supported by Orel and other authoritative researchers. The consensus might well turn out to be wrong, but that's what it looks like at the moment.

Obscure researchers? First off, who are you to even have a say in this. The saddest thing in the world is that no matter WHO Albanians are from of the Paleo-Balkan peoples, they are still Paleo-Balkan, unlike serbs.

So if Albanians are from Moesians, Triballians, Dacians, Bessi, whatever desperate proxy population serbs try find for Albanians, Albanians will always have been in Dardania before serbs by thousands of years.

Kosovo will never ever "be serbia". This will sadly always be true, and this kills serbs inside for some reason. Get over it.

Secondly,

Martin Huld studied even the Prishtina Dialect of Albanian, and is not some obscure researcher. Martin Huld is a scholar of Albanian beyond Orel's dreams. You are nobody to call Huld an "obscure" researcher.

Orel's work is basically a compilation, 90 percent referencing other linguists work before him but trying to put his Russian Pan Slav spin on it.

Linguists are well aware to be weary of Orels etymologies because they are aggressively Slavo centric. Not the best reputation to have is it?

As for Krzysztof Tomasz Witczak, that is cutting edge linguists work. Its from 2016. Go ahead and debunk it?

Polish and Croats for some reason, dont seem to have the same pathologies that other Slavs have against Albanians.

A lot of Polish albanologists are fair and don't constantly lie (unlike serb "academia").

 

[markod]

Obscure researchers? First off, who are you to even have a say in this. The saddest thing in the world is that no matter WHO Albanians are from of the Paleo-Balkan peoples, they are still Paleo-Balkan, unlike serbs.

So if Albanians are from Moesians, Triballians, Dacians, Bessi, whatever desperate proxy population serbs try find for Albanians, Albanians will always have been in Dardania before serbs by thousands of years.

Kosovo will never ever "be serbia". This will sadly always be true, and this kills serbs inside for some reason. Get over it.

Secondly,

Martin Huld studied even the Prishtina Dialect of Albanian, and is not some obscure researcher. Martin Huld is a scholar of Albanian beyond Orel's dreams. You are nobody to call Huld an "obscure" researcher.

Orel's work is basically a compilation, 90 percent referencing other linguists work before him but trying to put his Russian Pan Slav spin on it.

Linguists are well aware to be weary of Orels etymologies because they are aggressively Slavo centric. Not the best reputation to have is it?

As for Krzysztof Tomasz Witczak, that is cutting edge linguists work. Its from 2016. Go ahead and debunk it?

Polish and Croats for some reason, dont seem to have the same pathologies that other Slavs have against Albanians.

A lot of Polish albanologists are fair and don't constantly lie (unlike serb "academia").

I mean we're talking about a Greek quoting Austrian researchers here :indifferent:

If somebody were the write a paper and address their systematic review of the evidence that would be great. Imputations of conspiracies won't help our understanding.

 

[Angela]

I mean we're talking about a Greek quoting Austrian researchers here :indifferent:

If somebody were the write a paper and address their systematic review of the evidence that would be great. Imputations of conspiracies won't help our understanding.

Thank you for introducing a little sanity here. If a Greek dares to agree with the academic consensus, it's because of an agenda? Then the scholars who arrived at the consensus all also have an anti-Albanian agenda? These Austrian linguists at the University of Vienna are perhaps secretly Greek, or at least have an anti-Albanian agenda?

By the way, their main point is that Albanian affected other Balkan languages. Is that such a bad thing?

https://www.fwf.ac.at/en/research-i...ld-albanian-living-legacy-of-a-dead-language/

 

[Johane Derite]

I mean we're talking about a Greek quoting Austrian researchers here :indifferent:

If somebody were the write a paper and address their systematic review of the evidence that would be great. Imputations of conspiracies won't help our understanding.

We are talking about one of the leading archeogenetecists on earth endorsing a shoddy balkaninsight article with extremely bizarre claims in it like communism forcing all albanians to take illyrian names.

Not only did his post reflect either his lack of awareness of Albanian, or malicious propaganda towards the subject, but it also spread it as having the same "prestige" that his work that is published from Harvard
has.

If Lazaridis shared it, it must be true right? How come 7th Century BC Spartan had Albanian loanwords? That falsifies entirely any medieval Albanian immgration.

Its ridiculous honestly. If it were a hundred years or two, fine, but upwards of a thousand years? His post got likes from many powerful figures in this field, who are not exposed to the latest literature or any counter opinions.
Spencer Wells, for example, liked his post. He is CEO of Insitome, the company and related to the podcast. He also works at the National Geographic Genographic project. Thats just 1 of the likes on the post.

Who knows how much silent reach it got. Please lets not be coy as if endorsement doesn't matter.

There are just honestly too many problems with the article which is now years old to even count. "Illyrian and Albanian polar opposites" ok, citations? Can we see the evidence for this? Like honestly its such an absolute joke and would not be tolerated in any other field to just make a statement like that.

THERE IS NOT A SINGLE ILLYRIAN TEXT. ITS ALL ONOMASTICS.

I would love a systematic review. Firstly though someone has to be accountable for that article. They just make all sorts of false assertions, and assertions without any sourcing or citing.

And also, right winger Austrians are entirely anti-Albanian. Their right wingers support Serbia in the Kosovo-Serbia issue. Likewise their archeologists don't want Albanians anywhere near the Hallstatt area.
Also, the "muslim" perception of Albanian heavily skews even the most basic biases.

 

[Johane Derite]

Thank you for introducing a little sanity here. If a Greek dares to agree with the academic consensus, it's because of an agenda?

I did not say its an agenda. I said, if its not an agenda, then he is extremely incompetent.

I am just baffled if he is that incompetent at the level he is. Its shocking.

Imagine David Reich using Daily Mail articles to argue that Indo Europeans must come from here or there.

By the way, their main point is that Albanian affected other Balkan languages. Is that such a bad thing?

https://www.fwf.ac.at/en/research-i...ld-albanian-living-legacy-of-a-dead-language/

Thats not their main point. Their main point in the article ist hese bizarre statements about "its a completely opposite language".

Its already known that the "Albanoid" spectrum must have affected a lot of the Balkan languages.

For a long time, there has been the possibility that there were more than a couple of languages in the "Illyrian" territory. So for example there could have been groups that were speaking italoid or celtod languages, alongside Albanoid languages.

Now, if then a linguist or some linguists name only the celtoid or the italoid languages as "Illyrian" despite all having been called "Illyrians" by ancient ethnographers, and having been in the same territories in the past, then there is obviously a problem here.

Martin Huld and Krzyzstof are just TWO linguists that have ample evidence that Albanoid languages were spoken on the western balkans, and would have most likely been called "Illyrians" by ancient ethnographers. Why is that not in the article? And let alone the countless other albanologists that have argued this for more than one can count.

The worst thing is the lack of transparancy behind the article. They say all these things without providing any justification behind them. Most of their scientific articles aren't public.

I just saw this thread as a response to him:

https://twitter.com/AlbHistory/status/1080835140081852416




I know that when it comes to eurogenes, all the tricks of spin and manipulation are obvious to you, yet when greeks do the same manouvres i see a blind eye turned. Thats fine. Life goes on.

One thing I will say though. The Italians are not like the Greeks. The Arbereshe in Italy were left to be themsleves and not bothered by Italy, they weren't pyschologically tortured into hating themselves, and the intelligentsia wasnt
mobilized to erase them from the historical record or assimilate them like Greeks did and continue to do with Arvanites.

So maybe you don't understand the suspicion Albanians have towards greeks and serbs since you guys don't operate the same way.


This is the biggest Arvanite group on Facebook. One of the immediate causes for being banned is if you "deny the greek origin of Arvanites".

These type of pathologies where Arvanites have to trick themselves into believing they are greek, while simultaneously acknowledging they are Arvanite and yearning for the Albanian language and culture, these
weird mental pathologies dont happen in the Arbereshe of italy. This is a common pathology that Arvanites have in Greece unfortunately (as you can see 11k members)



Here is a poem that Francesco Crispi wrote in Albanian and Italian. He called himself "Nik Krie-Shpisë" in Albanian which is a play of words.:

http://www.radiandradi.com/nje-poezi-ne-shqip-prej-nje-kryeministri-te-italise-nga-agim-morina/

 

[markod]

We are talking about one of the leading archeogenetecists on earth endorsing a shoddy balkaninsight article with extremely bizarre claims in it like communism forcing all albanians to take illyrian names.

Not only did his post reflect either his lack of awareness of Albanian, or malicious propaganda towards the subject, but it also spread it as having the same "prestige" that his work that is published from Harvard
has.

If Lazaridis shared it, it must be true right? How come 7th Century BC Spartan had Albanian loanwords? That falsifies entirely any medieval Albanian immgration.

Its ridiculous honestly. If it were a hundred years or two, fine, but upwards of a thousand years? His post got likes from many powerful figures in this field, who are not exposed to the latest literature or any counter opinions.
Spencer Wells, for example, liked his post. He is CEO of Insitome, the company and related to the podcast. He also works at the National Geographic Genographic project. Thats just 1 of the likes on the post.

Who knows how much silent reach it got. Please lets not be coy as if endorsement doesn't matter.

There are just honestly too many problems with the article which is now years old to even count. "Illyrian and Albanian polar opposites" ok, citations? Can we see the evidence for this? Like honestly its such an absolute joke and would not be tolerated in any other field to just make a statement like that.

THERE IS NOT A SINGLE ILLYRIAN TEXT. ITS ALL ONOMASTICS.

I would love a systematic review. Firstly though someone has to be accountable for that article. They just make all sorts of false assertions, and assertions without any sourcing or citing.

And also, right winger Austrians are entirely anti-Albanian. Their right wingers support Serbia in the Kosovo-Serbia issue. Likewise their archeologists don't want Albanians anywhere near the Hallstatt area.
Also, the "muslim" perception of Albanian heavily skews even the most basic biases.

Again, he's merely citing the position that thus far has the best arguments to support it. Take other fora for example, the first result on the history forum of reddit cites Orel's version (which differs from the Austrians' hypothesis only in time frame):

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistori...y_does_the_albanian_language_have_no_ties_to/

It might turn out to be wrong, but it's the consensus and it's dishonest to attack Lazaridis over this.

Since we're talking about history, it has always been my belief that culturally and linguistically the Illyrians didn't survive long after the brutal crackdowns at the hands of the Romans in the Bellum Batonianum.

 

[Johane Derite]

Again, he's merely citing the position that thus far has the best arguments to support it. Take other fora for example, the first result on the history forum of reddit cites Orel's version (which differs from the Austrians' hypothesis only in time frame):

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistori...y_does_the_albanian_language_have_no_ties_to/

It might turn out to be wrong, but it's the consensus and it's dishonest to attack Lazaridis over this.

Since we're talking about history, it has always been my belief that culturally and linguistically the Illyrians didn't survive long after the brutal crackdowns at the hands of the Romans in the Bellum Batonianum.

Reddit is not Harvard. Genetics already does not support the Beskids theory of Orels.


Lazaridis represents the cutting edge of academia, not reddit forums. You honestly cannot hold him to the standard of reddit.

If i was to hold him to the standard of a redditor or eupedia forum user, then fine I wouldnt be reacting with this much fervour

But i am angry because he represents the elite of archeogenetics today. He himself in the comments said the low fst to Myceneans in Albanians. The Y-Dna in Mathieson 2018 places majority of Albanians
male ancestors on the croatian coast, so I dont get where he is coming from. Is it honest lack of exposure to better more updated work, or malicious agenda. I dont know, i didnt say that its necesary the malicious agenda.

 

[Ownstyler]

Lazaridis is wrong and I actually don't think it's an honest mistake.

First of all, there is no consensus on the issue of Illyrian-Albanian continuity. Are we joking here? There isn't even a consensus on whether Illyrian was a single language. Be serious. He is only citing one point of view. A point of view, which, to my best knowledge has not produced scientific publications until today. That doesn't mean it's less deserving but he could have chosen an academic paper instead of a newspaper article with a series of exaggerations and inaccuracies.

Second, let's assume Albanian didn't come from any Illyrian languages. How does that mean Albanians came from the North? What about Paionian, Macedonian, Epirote or other tribes of uncertain ethnic and linguistic affiliations? All of these all lived even further South than the Illyrians. There is a huge leap here, and coming from a person of his intelligence, to me, it means he is consciously or subconsciously pushing an agenda. It's quite clear.

 

[Yetos]

PLZ all here,

the map is correct,

simmilar to many shearchers who had published such maps,

the work is smerdaleos is huge,
these are only 4 paragraphs,

the main problem is not linguistic, neither genetic,
as we see the main problem is the same old argue,


to end,

@ Derite,

the word Buk = bread in Albanian is simmilar to Brygian Bekos, Serbian Pekara,
the Greek loans in Albanian language, is another case, as also the Albanian loans in Greek,

PLZ start understanding this,

I suggest all read his part about linguisic evolution about the river Cem in Albanian, Slavic Cijevna, also found as Sina, in Greek as Kina/Hina (compare Κενον)

to end,
I suggest find Katicic, Georgiev, Ramon, Pokome etc etc maps,

 

[markod]

Lazaridis is wrong and I actually don't think it's an honest mistake.

First of all, there is no consensus on the issue of Illyrian-Albanian continuity. Are we joking here? There isn't even a consensus on whether Illyrian was a single language. Be serious people. So he is only citing one point of view. A point of view, which, to my best knowledge has not produced scientific publications until today. That doesn't mean it's less deserving but he could have chosen an academic paper instead of a newspaper article with a series of exaggerations and inaccuracies.

Second, let's assume Albanian didn't come from any Illyrian languages. How does that mean Albanians came from the North? What about Paionian, Macedonian, Epirote or other tribes of uncertain ethnic and linguistic affiliations? All of these all lived even further South than the Illyrians. There is a huge leap here, and coming from a person of his intelligence, to me, it means he is consciously or subconsciously pushing an agenda. It's quite clear.

It's been published, apparently there's no international interest hence no translation yet:

https://www.albanologie.uni-muenche...matzinger_nov_2016/muenchen_2_ethnogenese.pdf
https://www.albanologie.uni-muenche...inger_nov_2016/matzinger-mu_nchen30112016.pdf

 

[LABERIA]

Thank you for introducing a little sanity here. If a Greek dares to agree with the academic consensus, it's because of an agenda? Then the scholars who arrived at the consensus all also have an anti-Albanian agenda? These Austrian linguists at the University of Vienna are perhaps secretly Greek, or at least have an anti-Albanian agenda?

By the way, their main point is that Albanian affected other Balkan languages. Is that such a bad thing?

https://www.fwf.ac.at/en/research-i...ld-albanian-living-legacy-of-a-dead-language/

Yeah, exactly:

Those seem like quite obscure researchers,

 

[LABERIA]

Those seem like quite obscure researchers, and I wouldn't give too much credence to loans considering that the Albanian vocabulary underwent so many changes. It just seems dishonest to accuse Lazaridis of having an agenda when he's just voicing the consensus also supported by Orel and other authoritative researchers. The consensus might well turn out to be wrong, but that's what it looks like at the moment.

I am curious, why you call them obscure researchers?

 

[Yetos]

Lazaridis is wrong and I actually don't think it's an honest mistake.

First of all, there is no consensus on the issue of Illyrian-Albanian continuity. Are we joking here? There isn't even a consensus on whether Illyrian was a single language. Be serious people. So he is only citing one point of view. A point of view, which, to my best knowledge has not produced scientific publications until today. That doesn't mean it's less deserving but he could have chosen an academic paper instead of a newspaper article with a series of exaggerations and inaccuracies.

Second, let's assume Albanian didn't come from any Illyrian languages. How does that mean Albanians came from the North? What about Paionian, Macedonian, Epirote or other tribes of uncertain ethnic and linguistic affiliations? All of these all lived even further South than the Illyrians. There is a huge leap here, and coming from a person of his intelligence, to me, it means he is consciously or subconsciously pushing an agenda. It's quite clear.

you are wrong ownstyler,

the map of smerdaleos is simmilar to maps of Katicic, Pokome, Georgiev, Ramon, etc,
the only question is if Brygian was Satem 1, satem 2, or Centum with Satem pronounce,

if you read the text, he mentions many many publications,