Genomic History of Neolithic to Bronze Age Anatolia, N.Levant & S. Caucasus

[Anfänger]

Maybe because Iran_Chalcolithic, particularly as far from the "core" of Iran as Hajji Firuz (which is really almost Transcaucasia), was already far too mixed to indicate adequately how much the local genetic makeup was changed by the influx of "INF proper" ancestry?

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[TD="class: multisources"]GEO_CHG[/TD]
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[TD="class: multiresult, bgcolor: #446AA5, align: right"]23.6[/TD]

Yes could be because it is too mixed but they could have mentioned it at least. This ancestry is key to everything related to DNA in the Middle East. I disagree that this is Transcaucasian because this northern Iran(very much like other IranChalcolithics) and/or likely unsampled northern Mesopotamian Chalcolithic ancestry penetrates as far north as Maykop(30-40%) while there is no relevant gene flow from Transcaucasia south. It is like talking about Yamnaya ancestry but only in terms of EHG and CHG. Btw, it even reaches Italy and Greece.

 

[Ygorcs]

Interesting, i think the eastern route hypothesis for IE Anatolian languages is dead. One R1b-V1636 sample without steppe ancestry is a very weak argument for the eastern route. I don't know about the western route but in some of my models even BMAC picks up steppe-like ancestry. I don't know what this means. Was there maybe a migration from the eneolithic steppe to BMAC ? If there was where are the relevant steppe Y-Haplogroups in BMAC ?

Yes, I also get non-negligible Progress_Eneolithic-like admixture in models, even using some CHG and Iran_N-rich samples, for aDNA samples from Chalcolithic Armenia all the way to Chalcolithic and Bronze Age South-Central Asia, including Bronze Age Hajji Firuz and Chalcolithic Tepe Hissar (northeastern Iran). I don't know if that really means something, but it should be more investigated, because earlier samples from Iran do not have that. Considering the very archaic and divergent nature of Anatolian IE, my expectation is that we'll find its source in a very ancient migration out of the steppe to some place that was far enough for Early PIE to evolved in total independence from other PIE dialects, leading to the weird child that is Anatolian IE.

I got them from "G25 datasheed ancient scaled". "He" is very fast in converting the BAM files into easy accessible format.

Wow already? That was REALLY fast. I confess I have to thank "him" for this work, even though I often take different conclusions when I do my own models. :-D

 

[Angela]

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arslantepe

from the paper :

We observe the
most common male lineages J1a, J2a, J2b, and G2a in all spatiotemporal
groups of the region. Alongside the less frequent lineages
H2 and T1a, these all form part of the genetic legacy that
dates to the Neolithic or was already present in the region during
the Upper Paleolithic (Wang et al., 2019; Lazaridis et al., 2016;
Jones et al., 2015; Feldman et al., 2019; Broushaki et al.,
2016). A few notable exceptions provide rather anecdotal but
nonetheless important evidence for long distance mobility and
extended Y-haplogroup diversity. For example, individual
ART038 carries Y-haplotype R1b-V1636 (R1b1a2), which is a
rare clade related to other early R1b-lineages, such as R1b-
V88 that was found in low frequency in Neolithic Europe (e.g.,
Haak et al., 2015) and R1b-Z2103—the main Y-lineage that is
associated with the spread of ‘‘steppe ancestry’’ across West
Eurasia during the early Bronze Age. However, R1b-V1636 and
R1b-Z2103 lineages split long before (17 kya) and therefore
there is no direct evidence for an early incursion from the
Pontic steppe during the main era of Arslantepe

As I thought; thanks, kingjohn. There's no evidence in any of these new papers for early steppe incursion into the Near East.

I was thinking of the Balkans route, but that doesn't show up either in early periods.

 

[Angela]

No, sorry I wasn't specific, I was talking about the Barcin_Chalcolithic sample, so Northwestern Anatolia. That wasn't R1b AFAIK. This is a model I've done:

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IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N​

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MAR_EN​

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RUS_Kolyma_Meso​

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0,0331234​

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58,8​

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6,4​

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20,4​

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8,6​

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I just meant that it's interesting that the R1b-V1636 found in Chalcolithic Armenia and Chalcolithic Pontic-Caspian steppe just north of the North Caucasus was also found as far south as Southern Anatolia, and that even in northwestern Anatolia some ammount of steppe-related ancestry may have already been present that early (of course, as Angela says, it might have arrived there not directly, but indirectly via populations that had some of that kind of ancestry - in fact, that's exactly my present view about the arrival of Anatolian IE in Anatolia proper, just a people that descended partly, perhaps even minoritatily, from a Chalcolithic Steppe group).

By the way, where did you get the coordinates for this Arslantepe sample and others like it? I'd really like to "play" with some models on them. :-D

Do you have the precise date for this sample quickly to hand?

 

[Angela]

Yes, I also get non-negligible Progress_Eneolithic-like admixture in models, even using some CHG and Iran_N-rich samples, for aDNA samples from Chalcolithic Armenia all the way to Chalcolithic and Bronze Age South-Central Asia, including Bronze Age Hajji Firuz and Chalcolithic Tepe Hissar (northeastern Iran). I don't know if that really means something, but it should be more investigated, because earlier samples from Iran do not have that. Considering the very archaic and divergent nature of Anatolian IE, my expectation is that we'll find its source in a very ancient migration out of the steppe to some place that was far enough for Early PIE to evolved in total independence from other PIE dialects, leading to the weird child that is Anatolian IE.



:-D

And huge chunks of Anatolia wound up speaking Anatolian IE languages with the only genetic trace in Anatolia being this small percent of ancestry in one sample? I mean, I know there's not much "Hun" in Hungarians, but it would still be pretty extraordinary.

 

[kingdavid]

As I thought; thanks, kingjohn. There's no evidence in any of these new papers for early steppe incursion into the Near East.

I was thinking of the Balkans route, but that doesn't show up either in early periods.

indeed
the obsession with the steppe is amazing
like there can't be civilized culture without steppe admixture .....

 

[Angela]

indeed
the obsession with the steppe is amazing
like there can't be civilized culture without steppe admixture .....

Civilized and steppe is a bit of an oxymoron, isn't it?

"Civilization" means a very specific thing in the history of the world, which many of the people in this "hobby" seem not to have read about.

The first agriculture, the first irrigation systems, the first domesticated animals (other than the horse), the first metallurgy, especially bronze metallurgy, the first actual cities, the first writing, the first empires, all are from the Near East, with some perhaps from the Neolithic societies of southeastern Europe.

The "civilized" aspects of Indo-European culture were learned from others. I'll give them the domestication of the horse, but I think even the cart came from Europe.

I say this as the daughter of a U-152 man and a U2e2 mother, and as someone with a respectable amount of "steppe" autosomal ancestry myself. Facts are facts, however.

 

[Ygorcs]

indeed
the obsession with the steppe is amazing
like there can't be civilized culture without steppe admixture .....

Nonsense. That sounds a bit paranoid to be honest. The thing is that Anatolia SPOKE Indo-European languages as early as the Middle Bronze Age, and the IE languages spoken there happen to have been the most divergent and arguably archaic of all IE language groups, which suggests a migration that took place before that of the ancestors of other, less deeply diverged IE groups. So, there is obviously a search for some kind of connection to the steppe because all the other IE branches can be linked to the arrival of steppe admixture in the regions where they are spoken.

This matter has nothing to do with civilization, it's all about linguistics. You don't see people looking for evidences of steppe admixture in the Levant, Egypt or the China, because there is simply no evidence those areas spoke mainly IE languages at some time in the Bronze Age.

 

[Ygorcs]

Do you have the precise date for this sample quickly to hand?

Unfortunately I don't. I also wish someone knew it.

 

[Ygorcs]

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arslantepe

from the paper :

We observe the
most common male lineages J1a, J2a, J2b, and G2a in all spatiotemporal
groups of the region. Alongside the less frequent lineages
H2 and T1a, these all form part of the genetic legacy that
dates to the Neolithic or was already present in the region during
the Upper Paleolithic (Wang et al., 2019; Lazaridis et al., 2016;
Jones et al., 2015; Feldman et al., 2019; Broushaki et al.,
2016). A few notable exceptions provide rather anecdotal but
nonetheless important evidence for long distance mobility and
extended Y-haplogroup diversity. For example, individual
ART038 carries Y-haplotype R1b-V1636 (R1b1a2), which is a
rare clade related to other early R1b-lineages, such as R1b-
V88 that was found in low frequency in Neolithic Europe (e.g.,
Haak et al., 2015) and R1b-Z2103—the main Y-lineage that is
associated with the spread of ‘‘steppe ancestry’’ across West
Eurasia during the early Bronze Age. However, R1b-V1636 and
R1b-Z2103 lineages split long before (17 kya) and therefore
there is no direct evidence for an early incursion from the
Pontic steppe during the main era of Arslantepe

Well, I think they got it a bit wrong that R1b-Z2103 is "the main Y-lineage that is associated with the spread of 'steppe ancestry' across West Eurasia during the early Bronze Age". Much of that expansion accompanied the spread of R1a-M417 and R1b-L51, not Z2103, though that was indeed the main lineage found in the mature phase of Yamnaya.

Strange that they would miss that...

I'm not sure if these data have been confirmed or corrected later, but according to this haplogroup assignment of aDNA samples from that Greater Caucasus paper (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...0U-WrhyTBWlwCVdK6AMQFCfIaw/edit#gid=202340943), R1b-V1636 was the Y-lineage of the two individuals from the Progress archaeological site in the Eneolithic Pontic-Caspian steppe as well as the Y-lineage of an individual from the Yamnaya culture in the piedmont of the Caucasus, i.e. broadly the same region of the earlier Eneolithic Steppe people.

The spread of a population with a higher CHG:EHG ratio in comparison with the Khvalynsk and Sredny Stog further north is almost certain to have occurred between the Eneolithic and the EBA of the Yamnaya culture, and it fits really well the spread of a population pretty similar (autosomally) to the Progress Eneolithic Steppe people. And, apparently, R1b-V1636 was present in people who were genetically similar to them.

Finally it is true the divergence between Z2103 and V1636 is really old, but the LMRCA of V1636 actually dates to the Late Neolithic/Early Chalcolithic, i.e. 6600 YBP, only a few centuries before V1636 was in Progress in the southernmost part of the Pontic-Caspian steppe.

 

[Olympus Mons]

I told you Shulaveri Shomu will be too late to be the source of the southern component in the Steppe. They have plenty of Iran Hajji-Firuz Chalcolithic. This ancestry spreads all over the Middle East.

Hi. You mean that, like I fought for months and got mocked for, hajji firuz chalc, ie the "steppe" R1b Z2103 from 5300 bc, ie the other guy apart from shulaveri making wine... Was a Shulaveri (or Shares Lots of ancestry) teaching winemaking in iran?

Does anyone have access to BAM for this sample?

 

[Olympus Mons]

wait a minute ... So in the sample from shulaveri there’s also the mtdna h15 ... In other words .. My mtdna ahha
h15 from georgia , caucasus so....

Ahhh, yes indeed.

 

[Angela]

Nonsense. That sounds a bit paranoid to be honest. The thing is that Anatolia SPOKE Indo-European languages as early as the Middle Bronze Age, and the IE languages spoken there happen to have been the most divergent and arguably archaic of all IE language groups, which suggests a migration that took place before that of the ancestors of other, less deeply diverged IE groups. So, there is obviously a search for some kind of connection to the steppe because all the other IE branches can be linked to the arrival of steppe admixture in the regions where they are spoken.

This matter has nothing to do with civilization, it's all about linguistics. You don't see people looking for evidences of steppe admixture in the Levant, Egypt or the China, because there is simply no evidence those areas spoke mainly IE languages at some time in the Bronze Age.

Sorry, I'm with kingjohn on this one.

Obsession is the right word. I'm interested in the Indo-Europeans too but, I'm equally interested in the population genetics of other peoples and periods of history, and more interested in history itself. I'm also passionately interested in, and post about, music and art and theater and language etc. I'm not obsessed with the population genetics of any group, not even Italians, and I only get emotional when someone is t-rolling my people, and that includes both Italians and Americans.

What else to call it but obsession when grown men spend what sometimes seems like every waking moment trying to get every nuance of the origin, spread, genetics, yDna etc. etc. right? Why does it matter so much? Why is it such an emotional issue for some people whether they went to the Near East or not?

I beg to differ too that they're only interested in steppe in Anatolia because they're just interested in linguistics. You can't be that naive, Ygorcs. They want the Mitanni to have brought steppe to other areas of the Near East too, and they used to make it much more clear that the reason was to claim the accomplishments of all those people for their own ancestors. Some idiot once told me the Sumerians were probably Indo-Europeans, a well-respected idiot by others, btw. Why do you think tens of thousands of posts were written trying to prove that the ancient Greeks and Romans were Nordics? Maybe you weren't around then?

Scratch the surface of obsessions and you usually find something emotional or some agenda or something really sinister. I spent a chunk of my professional life looking at the dark underbelly in human beings and I'm telling you it's true. In the case of this issue, it's usually something racist imo, no matter whether it's a Pole or an Italian. They hide it on some sites, but on others, with others of their kind, they let it rip. What they write on the dark net must be completely and utterly insane. I'm glad I don't go there. It might disturb my sleep more than Covid.

I remember R1a/R1b wars over who was "more" or "less" Indo-European. I remember, before it became politically incorrect, the boasting about the "superior" Indo-Europeans, the Conan the Barbarians of pre-history who killed all the men in their path and stole all the women, the celebration of the "blonde-blue-eyed cowboys" of the steppes conquering dark peoples and on and on. As I said, maybe you weren't around, but I was. If it weren't so pathetic it would be laughable. Adolescent fantasies of weak men with a less than adequate manhood usually, like those of Hitler and the maimed and diminutive Goebels, fantasies designed to redress the feelings of ostracism, perhaps, of personal or ethnic humiliation? Who knows.

I've been reading the writings of people like this for ten years, and that's my conclusion. You're welcome to your own opinion.

As to the specifics of these papers, if I'm getting the facts straight, we have an R1b1a2 in southern Anatolia with no steppe, a Barcin Chalcolithic sample in whom your model shows 6% of something found on the steppe, and some Central Asian admixed person or people, who may or may not have been Mitanni, with barely any steppe. As to the latter, given they may have come from BMAC and the Reich Lab paper on India said there was no admixture there, why would they have it?

If that's it, I don't think it's enough to prove an incursion down through the Caucasus from the steppe. It may have happened, or it may not; I don't really care. If it did happen it left nothing behind, not even the language eventually. The "Huns" at least left that, although their other impact was as negligible as that of the steppe in the Near East. All the cultural accomplishments, the "civilization", which is the only important thing, went in the other direction. That's what it has to do with "civilization", that and the fact that for the worst of these kinds of people it's always been about cultural appropriation of the worst kind. Anyway, since you posted your opinion, I thought I'd post mine.

Live and let live, and we'll see what future ancient dna tells us.

 

[Ygorcs]

Sorry, I'm with kingjohn on this one.

Obsession is the right word. I'm interested in the Indo-Europeans too but, I'm equally interested in the population genetics of other peoples and periods of history, and more interested in history itself. I'm also passionately interested in, and post about, music and art and theater and language etc. I'm not obsessed with the population genetics of any group, not even Italians, and I only get emotional when someone is t-rolling my people, and that includes both Italians and Americans.

What else to call it but obsession when grown men spend what sometimes seems like every waking moment trying to get every nuance of the origin, spread, genetics, yDna etc. etc. right? Why does it matter so much? Why is it such an emotional issue for some people whether they went to the Near East or not?

Well, I was replying to kingjohn about me, since he was clearly commenting about my post. I honestly don't even want to be a spokesperson for anyone else, let alone those who are truly obsessed not about population genetics and genetic history as whole, but specifically and almost exclusively about the Indo-European question. I do know the underlying and sometimes inconfessable motives behind that utter fascination with the history of the steppe migrations and of the spread of the IE language family... but I also think it's really unfair to assume a priori that everyone who proposes some genetic or archaeological link between the PC steppe and/or the Indo-Europeans and some ancient population or region is some kind of "supremacist", particularly when it is a region that is known for a fact to have had indeed some kind of link to Indo-European (after all, Anatolian IE didn't arrive there with online language courses).

Adolescent fantasies of weak men with a less than adequate manhood usually, like those of Hitler and the maimed and diminutive Goebels, fantasies designed to redress the feelings of ostracism, perhaps, of personal or ethnic humiliation? Who knows.

I've usually found that that is almost always the reason when you finally get to see a supremacist or a something-centrist of some kind, or even more broadly anyone who gets too radical about an idea. They have deeply personal psychological and social issues that are still ill solved for them, and they pretend they have overcome it all by creating a strong sense of belonging and of purpose to some group (even if it's a group that's long dead). But in my experience Nordicists weren't the only guilty of that (though probably the most vicious), Afrocentrists are now even more loud (perhaps because it's not seen as a politically incorrect tance yet), and there are even a few people I've met online who are perhaps way too proud of their Mediterranean and Near Eastern ancestors' civilizational achievements.

 

[Anfänger]

Hi. You mean that, like I fought for months and got mocked for, hajji firuz chalc, ie the "steppe" R1b Z2103 from 5300 bc, ie the other guy apart from shulaveri making wine... Was a Shulaveri (or Shares Lots of ancestry) teaching winemaking in iran?
Does anyone have access to BAM for this sample?

Hey, welcome back. You mean the former Chalcolithic R1b-Z2103? He is dated to the Iron Age now. Probably an IE Iranian. He is very close to modern Iranians.

There are 3 new huge papers about the Near East, with dozen of new samples and so much information but people talk about a sample with barely any steppe being a "Mitanni" woman thrown into a well.
Yep, pop gen community has an obsession with IE people.

 

[Olympus Mons]

Hey, welcome back. You mean the former Chalcolithic R1b-Z2103? He is dated to the Iron Age now. Probably an IE Iranian. He is very close to modern Iranians.
.

Hi. I thought they couldn't get enough collagen for proper dating. When and where is his new dating?
PS: that sample was perfectly stratified and his strada well dated. So, what changed?

EDIT: Yes, I do remember it was then published as IA.

 

[Olympus Mons]

One of the things this paper did is destroy (partly)my conspiracy theory against Reich and Krauser. Now I know why they had published everyone around them, everyone before and after them (sort of) ---- because the french have them!!! And sure enough, nobody expects a french to share those, does it? well poor Shulaveri, got short hand stick.

In the paper they explain:

"Extensive genetic characterization of the Late Neolithic population of Mentesh Tepe is being conducted by CNRS UMR 7206/MNHN USM 104. Here, we analyzed one individual from the Late Neolithic collective burial of Mentesh Tepe which producedgenome-wide data and was included in the genetic analyses."

- So, one day... maybe, peut-être un jour, we will get a paper regarding Shulaveri.

CNRS in Paris already had, in 2014, the two samples of the shulaveri couple buried, I think in Aruklho, handed by berteille Lyonnet to them for DNA extraction. For a while I was expectant.... Now we know they have the rest, which are the 30 inhumation of Mentesh tepe. I don't think there are many more, apart from the 3 samples from the Aratashen group that Ashot Margaryan used for is paper. well, at least he told me that those 3 samples are being used for a paper that is trying to extract nuclear DNA. I Just prey it wasn't this one (Skourtanioti) and they could't get any nuclear data...

Anyways, just for reference, Mentesh tepe is the most eastern bounders of Shulaveri-Shomu, so the ones connecting to the azerbaijan steppe, where exchanges with Iran neolithic were seem very early. and the youngster Krause and Skourtanioti used here was the last one to be buried of the 30 in the big pit burial. So the population had been in there for 500 years in the exchange route prior to his death. Maybe the other (if the french ever publish) will be just like him or a bit different set up. Anyways it will be interesting.

 

[Angela]

Well, I was replying to kingjohn about me, since he was clearly commenting about my post. I honestly don't even want to be a spokesperson for anyone else, let alone those who are truly obsessed not about population genetics and genetic history as whole, but specifically and almost exclusively about the Indo-European question. I do know the underlying and sometimes inconfessable motives behind that utter fascination with the history of the steppe migrations and of the spread of the IE language family... but I also think it's really unfair to assume a priori that everyone who proposes some genetic or archaeological link between the PC steppe and/or the Indo-Europeans and some ancient population or region is some kind of "supremacist", particularly when it is a region that is known for a fact to have had indeed some kind of link to Indo-European (after all, Anatolian IE didn't arrive there with online language courses).



I've usually found that that is almost always the reason when you finally get to see a supremacist or a something-centrist of some kind, or even more broadly anyone who gets too radical about an idea. They have deeply personal psychological and social issues that are still ill solved for them, and they pretend they have overcome it all by creating a strong sense of belonging and of purpose to some group (even if it's a group that's long dead). But in my experience Nordicists weren't the only guilty of that (though probably the most vicious), Afrocentrists are now even more loud (perhaps because it's not seen as a politically incorrect tance yet), and there are even a few people I've met online who are perhaps way too proud of their Mediterranean and Near Eastern ancestors' civilizational achievements. [/FONT][/COLOR]

I certainly don't think and didn't mean to imply that everyone who discusses the issue is a closet supremacist and racist. I will say that it's sometimes difficult to tell given all this cloaking of identity from one site to the next. Certain players are a bit more honest. At least they haven't changed their names.

I'd also say that pride in the accomplishments of one's people doesn't necessarily have anything to do with believing they're genetically superior to all others, perfect in every way, entitled to different treatment etc.

In the people we're discussing, part of the absurdity is that this sense of superiority applies not to their actual people, but to the proportion of ancestry they inherit from tribal people who lived 5,000 and more years ago. In a European context, that means the more than absurdity, the insanity, of thinking one is superior because one has 50 or 60% of steppe rather than 25 or 30%, or 15% of "Iran Neo" or 25%, or "GOD FORBID", anything that could be called "LEVANTINE".

There's a dark underbelly to the "hobby" of population genetics, including a good deal of anti-semitism, and it does no good to deny it, imo. Fresh air and the light of day kills more than just viruses.

Now, back to the papers.

In that regard, if I were a betting woman, given that the "Anatolian" IE languages are in western Anatolia, I would look for any traces of steppe there, perhaps in the far northwestern corner, despite the fact that I've never seen convincing evidence in the archaeology of any mass take over.

Who knows, maybe it was the relatively rare Hungarian model after all: very few people, perhaps only men, maybe mercenaries of some kind, who introduced a new language, but who had no lasting effect on the genetics or culture, partly because they were not entering a de-populated environment, but a thriving and more civilized one.

 

[Olympus Mons]

Part II.
Adding to my previous post regarding the Shulaveri Sample ,MTT001, its revealing that:
a. the Youngster had Mtdna U7, which is a very Iranian one, when compared to the Other shulaveri samples from Aratashen that have H2+152, H15a and I1. Ie he/she had an iranian mother that is not seen later in steppe, but the others Shulaveri mtdna (H15, H2 and I1) are also seen later in steppe (as well as H13 which is the other South caucasus LN sample from Polutepe).

b. so, if anything the Shulaveri "triangle" is sort of isolated in the PCA pulling to Iran_C but also to Armenia samples, EBA and Chal that in the past our good guru tried to convince us were proof or indicative of Steppe migration into south caucasus.

Armenia_ChL
Armenia_EBA_I1658 0.862±0.050
Sredny_Stog_I6561 0.138±0.050
chisq 17.038
tail prob 0.148174


Armenia_ChL_I1634
Armenia_EBA_I1658 0.836±0.065
Sredny_Stog_I6561 0.164±0.065
chisq 13.813
tail prob 0.312808


It just tell us that with one sample its always dangerous to draw conclusions...

 

[bicicleur 2]

fwiw

https://indo-european.eu/2020/05/de...pWGmXHJQgw-lBBY2MiJg22HcuUW1ftaB1_9x8XTe6rk3E