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Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

Archetype0ne said:
I do not have access to MTA. What modern populations is this sample closest to?
Click to expand...

I seriously doubt this is remotely correct, but here it is:

1. Algerian_Jewish (18.13)
2. Italian_Jewish (20.13)
3. Maltese (20.31)
4. South_Italian (22.00)
5. Tunisian_Jewish (22.27)
6. West_Sicilian (22.31)
7. Greek_Islands (23.82)
8. Libyan_Jewish (23.95)

This is a very poor fit across the board.
 
Here is a 3D PCA with Dodecad Globe 13 using the samples from this study, and the Clemente et al. 2021 samples:

wSMZlKv.png
 
Dodecad Globe 13 for Mik15 vs available modern populations:

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Mik15[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0700, align: right"]14.79754372[/TD]
[TD]Morocco_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0037, align: right"]16.63085386[/TD]
[TD]Sephardic_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0056, align: right"]17.52413479[/TD]
[TD]Sicilian_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF005F, align: right"]17.78300593[/TD]
[TD]S_Italian_Sicilian_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF008F, align: right"]19.19753370[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0095, align: right"]19.37811394[/TD]
[TD]C_Italian_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0096, align: right"]19.41410055[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazy_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F500FF, align: right"]22.80840415[/TD]
[TD]Tuscan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E300FF, align: right"]23.31169878[/TD]
[TD]TSI30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E200FF, align: right"]23.33840826[/TD]
[TD]Moroccan_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C400FF, align: right"]24.24646985[/TD]
[TD]Greek_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A000FF, align: right"]25.28409184[/TD]
[TD]Cypriots[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #9900FF, align: right"]25.50218226[/TD]
[TD]Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8C00FF, align: right"]25.87959235[/TD]
[TD]Algerian_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #7300FF, align: right"]26.61235240[/TD]
[TD]Canarias_1KG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #6E00FF, align: right"]26.75319233[/TD]
[TD]Mozabite[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #6A00FF, align: right"]26.88983637[/TD]
[TD]North_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #5F00FF, align: right"]27.19590594[/TD]
[TD]Turkish_Cypriot_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #4A00FF, align: right"]27.83072583[/TD]
[TD]O_Italian_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #1E00FF, align: right"]29.10995191[/TD]
[TD]Andalucia_1KG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #1E00FF, align: right"]29.12918296[/TD]
[TD]Moroccans[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #1700FF, align: right"]29.31107811[/TD]
[TD]Murcia_1KG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]30.27208780[/TD]
[TD]N_Italian_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]31.58302234[/TD]
[TD]Baleares_1KG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]31.68168714[/TD]
[TD]Portuguese_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Here is Mik15 vs the other ancient Greek samples:

He is very close to Minoans, which we know are mostly Anatolian_N with about 15% CHG/IN. There is no way Algerian_Jews are composed of that admixture. We can't really compare these samples so much to modern populations, because the inferences made by doing so are bound to be false:

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Mik15[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A1FF00, align: right"]4.73667605[/TD]
[TD]I2937[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C3FF00, align: right"]5.72554801[/TD]
[TD]I9129[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C9FF00, align: right"]5.90445594[/TD]
[TD]I9010[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFC00, align: right"]7.59130424[/TD]
[TD]Pta08[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFB00, align: right"]7.62219785[/TD]
[TD]I9128[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFCC00, align: right"]9.00139989[/TD]
[TD]I9005[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFC000, align: right"]9.35317593[/TD]
[TD]I0074[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFBE00, align: right"]9.42462731[/TD]
[TD]Kou01[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFB100, align: right"]9.80234156[/TD]
[TD]I0071[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8500, align: right"]11.08796194[/TD]
[TD]I0073[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7D00, align: right"]11.33379460[/TD]
[TD]I0070[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7500, align: right"]11.56451901[/TD]
[TD]I9130[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6000, align: right"]12.19090235[/TD]
[TD]I9127[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5600, align: right"]12.45656453[/TD]
[TD]I9131[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4200, align: right"]13.06872985[/TD]
[TD]I9041[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2C00, align: right"]13.70391915[/TD]
[TD]I9006[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1000, align: right"]14.52259274[/TD]
[TD]I9033[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0004, align: right"]15.10968564[/TD]
[TD]Kou03[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF007A, align: right"]18.59169438[/TD]
[TD]I9123[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0088, align: right"]18.99046866[/TD]
[TD]I2495[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00EF, align: right"]22.03010667[/TD]
[TD]I2499[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F000FF, align: right"]22.92758600[/TD]
[TD]I2683[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8D00FF, align: right"]25.84222707[/TD]
[TD]Log02[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]34.33169236[/TD]
[TD]Log04[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Autosomal-wise Mik15 looks like a Minoan, with an additional small amount of Steppe. Again, there is no way Algerian_Jews or Moroccan_Jews look like that in terms of autosomal DNA. This is why we must be careful with these tools:

F2J8PjY.jpg


5Q1W5XG.png
 
Jovialis said:
Dodecad Globe 13 for Mik15 vs available modern populations:

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Mik15[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0700, align: right"]14.79754372[/TD]
[TD]Morocco_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0037, align: right"]16.63085386[/TD]
[TD]Sephardic_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0056, align: right"]17.52413479[/TD]
[TD]Sicilian_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF005F, align: right"]17.78300593[/TD]
[TD]S_Italian_Sicilian_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF008F, align: right"]19.19753370[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0095, align: right"]19.37811394[/TD]
[TD]C_Italian_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0096, align: right"]19.41410055[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazy_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F500FF, align: right"]22.80840415[/TD]
[TD]Tuscan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E300FF, align: right"]23.31169878[/TD]
[TD]TSI30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E200FF, align: right"]23.33840826[/TD]
[TD]Moroccan_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C400FF, align: right"]24.24646985[/TD]
[TD]Greek_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A000FF, align: right"]25.28409184[/TD]
[TD]Cypriots[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #9900FF, align: right"]25.50218226[/TD]
[TD]Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8C00FF, align: right"]25.87959235[/TD]
[TD]Algerian_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #7300FF, align: right"]26.61235240[/TD]
[TD]Canarias_1KG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #6E00FF, align: right"]26.75319233[/TD]
[TD]Mozabite[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #6A00FF, align: right"]26.88983637[/TD]
[TD]North_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #5F00FF, align: right"]27.19590594[/TD]
[TD]Turkish_Cypriot_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #4A00FF, align: right"]27.83072583[/TD]
[TD]O_Italian_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #1E00FF, align: right"]29.10995191[/TD]
[TD]Andalucia_1KG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #1E00FF, align: right"]29.12918296[/TD]
[TD]Moroccans[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #1700FF, align: right"]29.31107811[/TD]
[TD]Murcia_1KG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]30.27208780[/TD]
[TD]N_Italian_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]31.58302234[/TD]
[TD]Baleares_1KG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]31.68168714[/TD]
[TD]Portuguese_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Here is Mik15 vs the other ancient Greek samples:

He is very close to Minoans, which we know are mostly Anatolian_N with about 15% CHG/IN. There is no way Algerian_Jews are composed of that admixture. We can't really compare these samples so much to modern populations, because the inferences made by doing so are bound to be false:

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Mik15[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A1FF00, align: right"]4.73667605[/TD]
[TD]I2937[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C3FF00, align: right"]5.72554801[/TD]
[TD]I9129[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C9FF00, align: right"]5.90445594[/TD]
[TD]I9010[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFC00, align: right"]7.59130424[/TD]
[TD]Pta08[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFB00, align: right"]7.62219785[/TD]
[TD]I9128[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFCC00, align: right"]9.00139989[/TD]
[TD]I9005[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFC000, align: right"]9.35317593[/TD]
[TD]I0074[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFBE00, align: right"]9.42462731[/TD]
[TD]Kou01[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFB100, align: right"]9.80234156[/TD]
[TD]I0071[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8500, align: right"]11.08796194[/TD]
[TD]I0073[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7D00, align: right"]11.33379460[/TD]
[TD]I0070[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7500, align: right"]11.56451901[/TD]
[TD]I9130[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6000, align: right"]12.19090235[/TD]
[TD]I9127[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5600, align: right"]12.45656453[/TD]
[TD]I9131[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4200, align: right"]13.06872985[/TD]
[TD]I9041[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2C00, align: right"]13.70391915[/TD]
[TD]I9006[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1000, align: right"]14.52259274[/TD]
[TD]I9033[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0004, align: right"]15.10968564[/TD]
[TD]Kou03[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF007A, align: right"]18.59169438[/TD]
[TD]I9123[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0088, align: right"]18.99046866[/TD]
[TD]I2495[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00EF, align: right"]22.03010667[/TD]
[TD]I2499[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F000FF, align: right"]22.92758600[/TD]
[TD]I2683[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8D00FF, align: right"]25.84222707[/TD]
[TD]Log02[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]34.33169236[/TD]
[TD]Log04[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Autosomal-wise Mik15 looks like a Minoan, with an additional small amount of Steppe. Again, there is no way Algerian_Jews or Moroccan_Jews look like that in terms of autosomal DNA. This is why we must be careful with these tools:
Click to expand...

Fantastic visualizations Jovialis.

Yes, I think its quite normal when you have such a poor fit to modern populations. Those distances are of course gonna reflect changes in genetic makeup components from the modern populations to the ancient sample. The case still remains, that if any modern population is close (no matter how far), it seems to be some sort of Jewish continuum.

Love the rainbow by the way. Do you think the smooth gradient of ancient samples in itself, with reference to this sample, points out to how heterogeneous the Myceneans, Minoans and Ancient Greeks were?

I think myself these conversations that pop up from time to time about x ancient people was y modern population is a bit ridiculous, also knowing how these PCAs are created in theory.

Take a Portuguese Father, Russian Mother, and the kid pops up German. Might as well give him a German pass*port right?
It gets more accurate when you add more components, two + way calculators etc..., but the flaw still remains that with the same ingredients you can make different dishes that taste quite different.
 
Archetype0ne said:
Fantastic visualizations Jovialis.

Yes, I think its quite normal when you have such a poor fit to modern populations. Those distances are of course gonna reflect changes in genetic makeup components from the modern populations to the ancient sample. The case still remains, that if any modern population is close (no matter how far), it seems to be some sort of Jewish continuum.

Love the rainbow by the way. Do you think the smooth gradient of ancient samples in itself, with reference to this sample, points out to how heterogeneous the Myceneans, Minoans and Ancient Greeks were?

I think myself these conversations that pop up from time to time about x ancient people was y modern population is a bit ridiculous, also knowing how these PCAs are created in theory.

Take a Portuguese Father, Russian Mother, and the kid pops up German. Might as well give him a German pass*port right?
It gets more accurate when you add more components, two + way calculators etc..., but the flaw still remains that with the same ingredients you can make different dishes that taste quite different.
Click to expand...

Indeed, an example I like to use about the possible flaws in using PCAs is the fact that South Asians, and South and Central Americans overlap. Nevertheless, we know that they are radically different in terms of their actual autosomal composition:

bKUtSEL.jpg
 
Jovialis said:
Indeed, an example I like to use about the possible flaws in using PCAs is the fact that South Asians, and South and Central Americans overlap. Nevertheless, we know that they are radically different in terms of their actual autosomal composition:
Click to expand...

Because the variation is multidimensional, and PCA is just a two-dimensional projection along the 2 axes with most variation.
But it is a very easy and fast visual representation.
 
bicicleur 2 said:
Because the variation is multidimensional, and PCA is just a two-dimensional projection along the 2 axes with most variation.
But it is a very easy and fast visual representation.
Click to expand...

Indeed the z-axis on the 3D PCA demonstrates differences better.
 
It's very likely those Middle Bronze Age Helladic were the actual Greek speakers. The Cycladic, Minoan and more Southern Greek were probably non-Proto-Greek Farmer + CHG mix.

I wonder what happened to G2a, during Early Neolithic they became so dominant in Europe, then again during Late Neolithic and then Bronze Age they became a relic of the past.

I was expecting E-V13 to be the dominant Neolithic Y-DNA in Balkans, but yet again G2a was all over the place.
 
Jovialis said:
Dodecad Globe 13 for Mik15 vs available modern populations:

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Mik15[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0700, align: right"]14.79754372[/TD]
[TD]Morocco_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0037, align: right"]16.63085386[/TD]
[TD]Sephardic_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0056, align: right"]17.52413479[/TD]
[TD]Sicilian_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF005F, align: right"]17.78300593[/TD]
[TD]S_Italian_Sicilian_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF008F, align: right"]19.19753370[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0095, align: right"]19.37811394[/TD]
[TD]C_Italian_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0096, align: right"]19.41410055[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazy_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F500FF, align: right"]22.80840415[/TD]
[TD]Tuscan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E300FF, align: right"]23.31169878[/TD]
[TD]TSI30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E200FF, align: right"]23.33840826[/TD]
[TD]Moroccan_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C400FF, align: right"]24.24646985[/TD]
[TD]Greek_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A000FF, align: right"]25.28409184[/TD]
[TD]Cypriots[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #9900FF, align: right"]25.50218226[/TD]
[TD]Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8C00FF, align: right"]25.87959235[/TD]
[TD]Algerian_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #7300FF, align: right"]26.61235240[/TD]
[TD]Canarias_1KG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #6E00FF, align: right"]26.75319233[/TD]
[TD]Mozabite[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #6A00FF, align: right"]26.88983637[/TD]
[TD]North_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #5F00FF, align: right"]27.19590594[/TD]
[TD]Turkish_Cypriot_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #4A00FF, align: right"]27.83072583[/TD]
[TD]O_Italian_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #1E00FF, align: right"]29.10995191[/TD]
[TD]Andalucia_1KG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #1E00FF, align: right"]29.12918296[/TD]
[TD]Moroccans[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #1700FF, align: right"]29.31107811[/TD]
[TD]Murcia_1KG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]30.27208780[/TD]
[TD]N_Italian_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]31.58302234[/TD]
[TD]Baleares_1KG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]31.68168714[/TD]
[TD]Portuguese_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Here is Mik15 vs the other ancient Greek samples:

He is very close to Minoans, which we know are mostly Anatolian_N with about 15% CHG/IN. There is no way Algerian_Jews are composed of that admixture. We can't really compare these samples so much to modern populations, because the inferences made by doing so are bound to be false:

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Mik15[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A1FF00, align: right"]4.73667605[/TD]
[TD]I2937[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C3FF00, align: right"]5.72554801[/TD]
[TD]I9129[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C9FF00, align: right"]5.90445594[/TD]
[TD]I9010[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFC00, align: right"]7.59130424[/TD]
[TD]Pta08[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFB00, align: right"]7.62219785[/TD]
[TD]I9128[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFCC00, align: right"]9.00139989[/TD]
[TD]I9005[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFC000, align: right"]9.35317593[/TD]
[TD]I0074[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFBE00, align: right"]9.42462731[/TD]
[TD]Kou01[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFB100, align: right"]9.80234156[/TD]
[TD]I0071[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8500, align: right"]11.08796194[/TD]
[TD]I0073[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7D00, align: right"]11.33379460[/TD]
[TD]I0070[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7500, align: right"]11.56451901[/TD]
[TD]I9130[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6000, align: right"]12.19090235[/TD]
[TD]I9127[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5600, align: right"]12.45656453[/TD]
[TD]I9131[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4200, align: right"]13.06872985[/TD]
[TD]I9041[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2C00, align: right"]13.70391915[/TD]
[TD]I9006[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1000, align: right"]14.52259274[/TD]
[TD]I9033[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0004, align: right"]15.10968564[/TD]
[TD]Kou03[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF007A, align: right"]18.59169438[/TD]
[TD]I9123[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0088, align: right"]18.99046866[/TD]
[TD]I2495[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00EF, align: right"]22.03010667[/TD]
[TD]I2499[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F000FF, align: right"]22.92758600[/TD]
[TD]I2683[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8D00FF, align: right"]25.84222707[/TD]
[TD]Log02[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]34.33169236[/TD]
[TD]Log04[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Autosomal-wise Mik15 looks like a Minoan, with an additional small amount of Steppe. Again, there is no way Algerian_Jews or Moroccan_Jews look like that in terms of autosomal DNA. This is why we must be careful with these tools:

F2J8PjY.jpg


5Q1W5XG.png
Click to expand...


the fits are bad for everyone so it could be correct. it's maybe just that all other populations are so far away from them now so that jewish populations are closest.
the thing is maybe that the "levantine farmer" ancestry is not differentiated strong enough from anatolian farmer/CHG to pull jewish people, who also have anatolian_N/CHG further away than the other populations who also have different admixtures.
 
Jovialis said:
Dodecad Globe 13 for Mik15 vs available modern populations:

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Mik15[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0700, align: right"]14.79754372[/TD]
[TD]Morocco_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0037, align: right"]16.63085386[/TD]
[TD]Sephardic_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0056, align: right"]17.52413479[/TD]
[TD]Sicilian_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF005F, align: right"]17.78300593[/TD]
[TD]S_Italian_Sicilian_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF008F, align: right"]19.19753370[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0095, align: right"]19.37811394[/TD]
[TD]C_Italian_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0096, align: right"]19.41410055[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazy_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F500FF, align: right"]22.80840415[/TD]
[TD]Tuscan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E300FF, align: right"]23.31169878[/TD]
[TD]TSI30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E200FF, align: right"]23.33840826[/TD]
[TD]Moroccan_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C400FF, align: right"]24.24646985[/TD]
[TD]Greek_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A000FF, align: right"]25.28409184[/TD]
[TD]Cypriots[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #9900FF, align: right"]25.50218226[/TD]
[TD]Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8C00FF, align: right"]25.87959235[/TD]
[TD]Algerian_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #7300FF, align: right"]26.61235240[/TD]
[TD]Canarias_1KG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #6E00FF, align: right"]26.75319233[/TD]
[TD]Mozabite[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #6A00FF, align: right"]26.88983637[/TD]
[TD]North_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #5F00FF, align: right"]27.19590594[/TD]
[TD]Turkish_Cypriot_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #4A00FF, align: right"]27.83072583[/TD]
[TD]O_Italian_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #1E00FF, align: right"]29.10995191[/TD]
[TD]Andalucia_1KG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #1E00FF, align: right"]29.12918296[/TD]
[TD]Moroccans[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #1700FF, align: right"]29.31107811[/TD]
[TD]Murcia_1KG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]30.27208780[/TD]
[TD]N_Italian_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]31.58302234[/TD]
[TD]Baleares_1KG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]31.68168714[/TD]
[TD]Portuguese_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Here is Mik15 vs the other ancient Greek samples:

He is very close to Minoans, which we know are mostly Anatolian_N with about 15% CHG/IN. There is no way Algerian_Jews are composed of that admixture. We can't really compare these samples so much to modern populations, because the inferences made by doing so are bound to be false:

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Mik15[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A1FF00, align: right"]4.73667605[/TD]
[TD]I2937[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C3FF00, align: right"]5.72554801[/TD]
[TD]I9129[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C9FF00, align: right"]5.90445594[/TD]
[TD]I9010[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFC00, align: right"]7.59130424[/TD]
[TD]Pta08[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFB00, align: right"]7.62219785[/TD]
[TD]I9128[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFCC00, align: right"]9.00139989[/TD]
[TD]I9005[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFC000, align: right"]9.35317593[/TD]
[TD]I0074[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFBE00, align: right"]9.42462731[/TD]
[TD]Kou01[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFB100, align: right"]9.80234156[/TD]
[TD]I0071[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8500, align: right"]11.08796194[/TD]
[TD]I0073[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7D00, align: right"]11.33379460[/TD]
[TD]I0070[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7500, align: right"]11.56451901[/TD]
[TD]I9130[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6000, align: right"]12.19090235[/TD]
[TD]I9127[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5600, align: right"]12.45656453[/TD]
[TD]I9131[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4200, align: right"]13.06872985[/TD]
[TD]I9041[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2C00, align: right"]13.70391915[/TD]
[TD]I9006[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1000, align: right"]14.52259274[/TD]
[TD]I9033[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0004, align: right"]15.10968564[/TD]
[TD]Kou03[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF007A, align: right"]18.59169438[/TD]
[TD]I9123[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0088, align: right"]18.99046866[/TD]
[TD]I2495[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00EF, align: right"]22.03010667[/TD]
[TD]I2499[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F000FF, align: right"]22.92758600[/TD]
[TD]I2683[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8D00FF, align: right"]25.84222707[/TD]
[TD]Log02[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]34.33169236[/TD]
[TD]Log04[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Autosomal-wise Mik15 looks like a Minoan, with an additional small amount of Steppe. Again, there is no way Algerian_Jews or Moroccan_Jews look like that in terms of autosomal DNA. This is why we must be careful with these tools:

F2J8PjY.jpg


5Q1W5XG.png
Click to expand...

All Minoan samples yield similar results.

Minoan Moni Odigitira 2000 BC. This is known from 2017, looks reasonable to me considering location and relations over time. I don’t see anything misleading in these cases. Certainly there are other cases that might be misleading, so ingredients should be checked.

Closest Modern.

1. Algerian_Jewish (10.90)
2. Italian_Jewish (12.46)
3. Tunisian_Jewish (13.79)
4. Libyan_Jewish (15.23)
5. South_Italian (16.78)
6. Maltese (17.77)
7. West_Sicilian (18.49)
8. East_Sicilian (19.64)



Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
Last edited:
Do we have ancient Jewish autosomal DNA?
Were they mostly Anatolian_N ? How would they compare to these Minoan samples? What about Phoenician autosomal (they were moving around, and could have been a vector of transmission)?
 
On the other hand, I'm rather inclined to believe that the peoples from which Log02 and Log04 originate are not the true carriers of the ancient Greek language (or that they are secondary). More likely they are the carriers of that portion of steppic DNA that later diluted into the Minoan substrate, giving rise to the Mycenaeans proper a few centuries later.
I'd be more willing to bet that the bulk of the Mycenaean language (and culture) is probably an inheritance that came mainly from Anatolia/Caucasus, perhaps on a par with the language of the Minoans (already several scholars had gone so far as to speculate that there were extremely ancient Caucasian or Anatolian Indo-European languages behind the mysterious Linear A itself). I'm thinking of various statistical and glottochronological models according to which the Greek language, although much later, still remains quite close to that of the Hittites, which at the time is considered the most archaic of the family, and in any case quite distinct from the superclade of other linguistic families carried into continental Europe by the Yamnaya and their Corded-Ware or related heirs.


This may imply, if we want to save the day, that the Indo-Europeanisation of the archaic Greek world is perhaps the result of two combined directions (Eastern Model + Northern Model mentioned by Lazaridis a few years ago), overlapping and alternating over centuries or even millennia, which like a pincer imposed itself and infiltrated the Neolithic and Minoan substrate.


Warning: I'm NOT referring to Renfrew's old hypothesis about the Indo-Europeanisation of the continent through Neolithic expansion, but to an archaic Indo-European proto-component different from the steppic one and initially distinct from the Neolithic farmers - composed mostly of CHG - and located perhaps between the inner Caucasus and Iran that continued to operate and ravage the region in a substantially autonomous way from the steppe peoples (a part of this component in earlier periods joined with the EHG to form the Yamnaya proper).


It is a hypothesis that could hold together the linguistic and genetic data (an Indo-European language showing some important divergences from the other families + ancient Indo-European peoples of the Anatolian and Aegean region who at the time of their peak were characterised by a very modest genetic signal from the steppe)
 
Ailchu said:
the fits are bad for everyone so it could be correct. it's maybe just that all other populations are so far away from them now so that jewish populations are closest.
the thing is maybe that the "levantine farmer" ancestry is not differentiated strong enough from anatolian farmer/CHG to pull jewish people, who also have anatolian_N/CHG further away than the other populations who also have different admixtures.
Click to expand...

I don't have Algerian_Jews, but Moroccan_jews are quite different from minoans in autosomal DNA

Minoans are mostly Anatolian_N with a bit of CHG, as demonstrated by the study of this thread.

Moroccon_Jews are as such:

6B54Hsw.jpg


They are different too, Natufian is very different from CHG as demonstrated by PCA analysis:

sU4ekpj.png


Also there are other exotic admixture in them which make Moroccan_Jews different as well.
 
What makes Natufians different primarily is 27% Talforat-like (Ancient North African) admixture:

QYkCpEO.png
 
Stuvanè said:
On the other hand, I'm rather inclined to believe that the peoples from which Log02 and Log04 originate are not the true carriers of the ancient Greek language (or that they are secondary). More likely they are the carriers of that portion of steppic DNA that later diluted into the Minoan substrate, giving rise to the Mycenaeans proper a few centuries later.
I'd be more willing to bet that the bulk of the Mycenaean language (and culture) is probably an inheritance that came mainly from Anatolia/Caucasus, perhaps on a par with the language of the Minoans (already several scholars had gone so far as to speculate that there were extremely ancient Caucasian or Anatolian Indo-European languages behind the mysterious Linear A itself). I'm thinking of various statistical and glottochronological models according to which the Greek language, although much later, still remains quite close to that of the Hittites, which at the time is considered the most archaic of the family, and in any case quite distinct from the superclade of other linguistic families carried into continental Europe by the Yamnaya and their Corded-Ware or related heirs.


This may imply, if we want to save the day, that the Indo-Europeanisation of the archaic Greek world is perhaps the result of two combined directions (Eastern Model + Northern Model mentioned by Lazaridis a few years ago), overlapping and alternating over centuries or even millennia, which like a pincer imposed itself and infiltrated the Neolithic and Minoan substrate.


Warning: I'm NOT referring to Renfrew's old hypothesis about the Indo-Europeanisation of the continent through Neolithic expansion, but to an archaic Indo-European proto-component different from the steppic one and initially distinct from the Neolithic farmers - composed mostly of CHG - and located perhaps between the inner Caucasus and Iran that continued to operate and ravage the region in a substantially autonomous way from the steppe peoples (a part of this component in earlier periods joined with the EHG to form the Yamnaya proper).


It is a hypothesis that could hold together the linguistic and genetic data (an Indo-European language showing some important divergences from the other families + ancient Indo-European peoples of the Anatolian and Aegean region who at the time of their peak were characterised by a very modest genetic signal from the steppe)
Click to expand...

Check this out Stuvane. https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...vid-Goldstein-Indo-European-Linguistics-V8-I1
 
Stuvanè said:
On the other hand, I'm rather inclined to believe that the peoples from which Log02 and Log04 originate are not the true carriers of the ancient Greek language (or that they are secondary). More likely they are the carriers of that portion of steppic DNA that later diluted into the Minoan substrate, giving rise to the Mycenaeans proper a few centuries later.
I'd be more willing to bet that the bulk of the Mycenaean language (and culture) is probably an inheritance that came mainly from Anatolia/Caucasus, perhaps on a par with the language of the Minoans (already several scholars had gone so far as to speculate that there were extremely ancient Caucasian or Anatolian Indo-European languages behind the mysterious Linear A itself). I'm thinking of various statistical and glottochronological models according to which the Greek language, although much later, still remains quite close to that of the Hittites, which at the time is considered the most archaic of the family, and in any case quite distinct from the superclade of other linguistic families carried into continental Europe by the Yamnaya and their Corded-Ware or related heirs.


This may imply, if we want to save the day, that the Indo-Europeanisation of the archaic Greek world is perhaps the result of two combined directions (Eastern Model + Northern Model mentioned by Lazaridis a few years ago), overlapping and alternating over centuries or even millennia, which like a pincer imposed itself and infiltrated the Neolithic and Minoan substrate.


Warning: I'm NOT referring to Renfrew's old hypothesis about the Indo-Europeanisation of the continent through Neolithic expansion, but to an archaic Indo-European proto-component different from the steppic one and initially distinct from the Neolithic farmers - composed mostly of CHG - and located perhaps between the inner Caucasus and Iran that continued to operate and ravage the region in a substantially autonomous way from the steppe peoples (a part of this component in earlier periods joined with the EHG to form the Yamnaya proper).


It is a hypothesis that could hold together the linguistic and genetic data (an Indo-European language showing some important divergences from the other families + ancient Indo-European peoples of the Anatolian and Aegean region who at the time of their peak were characterised by a very modest genetic signal from the steppe)
Click to expand...

Very well though out post by the way.


Figure 25

MLE tree with bootstrap scores (NJ start tree)
Citation: Indo-European Linguistics 8, 1 (2020) ; 10.1163/22125892-20201000

22125892_008_01_s003_i0086.png



Your theory adds ideas in my mind about possible early Indo European expansions. A not yet published possible l283 sample in Moldova could be as old as 6000 years, since it is speculated it is from the Eneolithic. Which for my own clade changes the whole picture. Albeit we have to wait for them to publish such a paper after 2 years of the leak.

Considering the old basal L283 are found around North Caucasus, next to the steppes, as well as considering L283* is found in a Modern Armenian, and J was around Zargos early on, you theory in my mind has some circumstantial, albeit weak support.
 
Archetype0ne said:
Do we have ancient Jewish autosomal DNA?
Were they mostly Anatolian_N ? How would they compare to these Minoan samples? What about Phoenician autosomal (they were moving around, and could have been a vector of transmission)?
Click to expand...

The study of which this thread is based on has dismissed this possiblity:

[FONT=&quot]Other proposed migrations, such as settlement by Egyptian or Phoenician colonists[/FONT][FONT=&quot]22[/FONT][FONT=&quot] are not discernible in our data, as there is no measurable Levantine or African influence in the Minoans and Myceneans, thus rejecting the hypothesis that the cultures of the Aegean were seeded by migrants from the old civilizations of these regions.

[/FONT]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5565772/
Click to expand...
 
Jovialis said:
The study of which this thread is based on has dismissed this possiblity:
Click to expand...

Which possibility?

Oh I just saw the quote.

Yeah I wasn't talking about that. Was asking what Ancient Jews and Phoenician auDNA composition is.
 
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