To burn or not to burn: LBA/EIA Balkan case

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Riverman said:
Going by the current distribution, it was always clear to me that the Basarabi-Hallstatt connection must be real and Hallstatt (especially Fr�g) into Alpine-Danubian Celts must have lots of E-V13, both from Hallstatt transmission and by assimilating local Daco-Thracian and Pannonian groups.
Click to expand...

To me it's very clear-cut now that Carpathian Urnfield equates to E-V13. The bulk moved South into Balkans attracted by the riches of Mediterranean cultures.
 
Target: I14465_Slovakia_IA_Vekerzug:I14465
Distance: 3.2800% / 0.03280040

58.4TUR_Barcin_N
29.2Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
12.4WHG




Target: I18832_Hungary_IA_LaTene_oEast:I18832
Distance: 2.3133% / 0.02313348

66.6TUR_Barcin_N
32.2Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
1.0WHG
0.2Han



Target: I18527_Hungary_IA_LaTene:I18527
Distance: 3.5353% / 0.03535346

48.8TUR_Barcin_N
36.4Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
14.8WHG




Target: I16272_Czech_IA_LaTene:I16272
Distance: 4.1424% / 0.04142366

48.0Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
33.8TUR_Barcin_N
18.2WHG
 
What's also clear from the paper is the near total uniformity of the J2b cluster from the MBA-Tumulus culture on. They cluster pretty close, being more homogeneous than modern populations and its really concentrated around Croatia in this setting. I think that's a pretty good candidate for the Illyrian core.
 
Riverman said:
What's also clear from the paper is the near total uniformity of the J2b cluster from the MBA-Tumulus culture on. They cluster pretty close, being more homogeneous than modern populations and its really concentrated around Croatia in this setting. I think that's a pretty good candidate for the Illyrian core.
Click to expand...

J2b is from Belotic Bela Ckrva, and before that Mokrin/Maros. MBA-Tumulus, if u read carefully migrated from Southern Germany to Carpathian mountains not Croatia, in Croatia migrated the Koszider hoard during Late Bronze Age, which might very well have been a Hugelgraberkultur + Encrusted Pottery Culture mixture.
 
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Hawk said:
J2b is from Belotic Bela Ckrva, and before that Mokrin/Maros. MBA-Tumulus, if u read carefully migrated from Southern Germany to Carpathian mountains not Croatia, in Croatia migrated the Koszidor hoard during Late Bronze Age, which might very well have been a Hugelgraberkultur + Encrusted Pottery Culture mixture.
Click to expand...

What I read about it, not too much, but what I gathered is that the Koszider hoard horizon is basically a local Tumulus culture variant expansion, probably a fused group, similar to what we can observe later with fused Thraco-Cimmerians or Thraco-Scythians. But clearly, very clearly rleated to the Alpine-Danubian TC nevertheless, basically their expansive, conquering phase in the region. Encrusted pottery got rolled over by both TC and later G?va, but the bulk did evade them and moved down the Danube, which is why even after the TC conquest they could still fuse with G?va later, to create the Psenichevo-Basarabi horizon.
 
Hawk said:
J2b is from Belotic Bela Ckrva, and before that Mokrin/Maros. MBA-Tumulus, if u read carefully migrated from Southern Germany to Carpathian mountains not Croatia, in Croatia migrated the Koszidor hoard during Late Bronze Age, which might very well have been a Hugelgraberkultur + Encrusted Pottery Culture mixture.
Click to expand...

Belotic Bela Crkva is slightly older than Mokrin/Maros. J2b is from Maros. Posušje proto-Illyrian were partially derived from Mokrin anyway before the genetics so it fits nicely.

E-V13 as will Pannonian study clearly indicate is originally most likely from Nyirseg (or Ottomani less likely). And then a big LBA boom with Gava.
 
Riverman said:
What's also clear from the paper is the near total uniformity of the J2b cluster from the MBA-Tumulus culture on. They cluster pretty close, being more homogeneous than modern populations and its really concentrated around Croatia in this setting. I think that's a pretty good candidate for the Illyrian core.
Click to expand...

Though J2b has no relation to Tumulus culture. Tumulus culture were Central Euro MBA R-L51 migrants into Pannonia. J-L283 EBA locals in Eastern Pannonia who massively spread to the Western Balkans in EMBA/MBA, first Dalmatia then Albania.

Based on Pannonian study the strongest forming component of Maros was likely Yamnaya, as there is one very early Maros sample in the Hungarian study with a Yamnaya profile.
 
Aspurg said:
Belotic Bela Crkva is slightly older than Mokrin/Maros. J2b is from Maros. Posušje proto-Illyrian were partially derived from Mokrin anyway before the genetics so it fits nicely.

E-V13 as will Pannonian study clearly indicate is originally most likely from Nyirseg (or Ottomani less likely). And then a big LBA boom with Gava.
Click to expand...

You are right on this one, i just got carried away by some comparisons by Frano Prendi between Belotic Bela Crkva, Glasinac and Matt-Painted Pottery. And probably by this picture-timeline of cultures which puts it during Late EBA and MBA.

xvdmI5b.jpg


Are you sure there is no Belotic-Bela Crkva both during EBA and MBA?
 
Also, i wouldn't belittle the fact that E-V13 was found in different La Tene sites, 3 so far(Western Hungary, Western Slovakia, Central Bohemia, Southern France). And the E-M215 La Tene from Southern France was very likely E-V13 as well. That's too much to be a coincidence. They probably joined the ranks during Late Bronze Age and were a minority among them. Let's see the subclades when the BAM files are ready. But, it's also the Pannonian region.

Well, according to this Hungarian website, before 350 B.C they assign the Sopron region to Illyrian-Pannonians?

According to our knowledge, the first real castles, fortifications of soil appeared in the 6th-4th centuries B.C. (Iron Age). The age is referred to as the religion of Hallstatt-age. The plateau of Várhely (Burgstall, 483m) was a fortified settlement of Illyrians in the Hallstatt-age. Around 350 B.C. the area was occupied by the Celts. The building of fortifications and ditches was continued after the first appearance of the Romans; their final length reached 2000m. Similar fortifications were built at today's Károly-magaslat (Károly-hill). From the 2nd century B.C. onwards these strongholds were also fixed by stonewalls from the outside.

https://www.budapest.com/hungary/cities/sopron/history.en.html
Click to expand...
 
We have no proper designation for these people imho, but they were related to Pannonian Illyrians most likely, which derive from the Middle Danubian Urnfielders plus Channelled Ware Urnfield groups (Kyjatice-G?va) for the most part.
 
Hawk said:
You are right on this one, i just got carried away by some comparisons by Frano Prendi between Belotic Bela Crkva, Glasinac and Matt-Painted Pottery. And probably by this picture-timeline of cultures which puts it during Late EBA and MBA.

Are you sure there is no Belotic-Bela Crkva both during EBA and MBA?
Click to expand...

Belotic Bela Crkva might have existed also in some very early MBA. It existed throughout the entire EBA I believe. It had connections to various groups, Nagyrev, Maros, Glina III, maybe most with Vinkovci culture.

There are samples from all of these bar Glina III , except there are some Glina III cousin culture finds from an upcoming Bulgarian study, that might be an indication for Glina, Vinkovci being in this upcoming Hungarian study.
 
I would say the evidence so far points just as the nomenclature defines the Middle-Danube Urnfield Cultures: Caka, Maho, Gava. E-V13 was scattered around these cultures, at some more at some less.

Romania/Moldavia/Ukraine didn't have any E-V13 before LBA, nor inner Balkans.
 
This female sample from Slovakian Hallstatt Vekerzug is my closest ancient sample. She has a mtDNA H1

Distance to:Hawk_scaled
0.02996871SVK_IA_Vekerzug:I12105
0.03299762HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ43
0.03397282HUN_IA_Syrmian_SremGroup:I18259
0.03438320IND_Roopkund_B:I6936
0.03482785HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ36
0.03561805HUN_La_Tene:I18493
0.03569511GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02
0.03749184DEU_MA_Alemannic_o1:NIEcap3b
0.03756047HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ37
0.03811515HRV_Pop_CA:pOP39
0.03823018HRV_EIA:I23904
0.03832633ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR55
0.03939553IND_Roopkund_B:I3404
0.03943402Scythian_MDA:scy192
0.03964654ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR33
0.03980929HRV_EIA:I26742
0.04000153GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log04
0.04000693SVK_IA_Vekerzug:I12098
0.04003507SRB_Mokrin_EBA_Maros:I23205
0.04018759ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR36
0.04023831SRB_Mokrin_EBA_Maros_oAegean:MOK17A
0.04031992Scythian_MDA:scy197
0.04048246ITA_Tarquinia_EMA:TAQ022
0.04074609HUN_LBA_EIA:I11683
0.04081200SVK_IA_Vekerzug:I11721
0.04085139DEU_MA_ACD_Baiuvaric:NW_54
0.04117742ITA_Etruscan:RMPR474b
0.04135765ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance:RMPR970
0.04174284HRV_MBA:I4331
0.04206426HUN_BA:I7043
0.04220230DEU_MA_Alemannic_o2:NIEcap3c
0.04226506VK2020_ITA_Foggia_MA:VK538
0.04232969HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ28
0.04239937ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR1287
0.04252108ITA_Proto-Villanovan:RMPR1
0.04253080UKR_Cimmerian_o:MJ12
0.04253610SRB_Mokrin_EBA_Maros:I23208
0.04254209Levant_LBN_MA_o4:SI-53
0.04254560HRV_LIA_La_Tene:I26735
0.04255467HUN_La_Tene:I18491
0.04281506HUN_IA_La_Tene_oEast:I18832
0.04297053HRV_EBA:I3499
0.04324516HRV_EIA:I24882
0.04341950HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ32
0.04353485HUN_IA_La_Tene:I18529
0.04374269ITA_Chiusi_EMA:ETR007
0.04392579Scythian_MDA:scy305
0.04399249DEU_MA_ACD_Nordic:STR_310
0.04406290HUN_IA_La_Tene_o:I4998
0.04423490HRV_IA:I3313



Target: Hawk_scaled
Distance: 2.7935% / 0.02793452
49.2TUR_Barcin_N
38.0Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
11.8TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
1.0WHG



Target: SVK_IA_Vekerzug:I12105
Distance: 2.9510% / 0.02950952
38.2TUR_Barcin_N
37.2Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
21.6TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
3.0WHG
 
Interesting.

Distance to:SVK_IA_Vekerzug:I12105
0.03197551DEU_MA_Alemannic_o1:NIEcap3b
0.03289225GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02
0.03588961VK2020_ITA_Foggia_MA:VK538
0.03606130ITA_Proto-Villanovan:RMPR1
0.03702759GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log04
0.03713559Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I5017
0.03744101HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ37
0.03763850HRV_MBA:I4331
0.03839663HRV_IA:I3313
0.03842446HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ36
0.03848363IND_Roopkund_B:I6936
0.03871577ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR55
0.03877038HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ43
0.03932423DEU_MA_ACD_Nordic:STR_310
0.03940208HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ28
0.04035895ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR61
0.04076426IND_Roopkund_B:I3404
0.04101105ITA_Chiusi_EMA:ETR007
0.04102651Scythian_MDA:scy192
0.04124017HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ32
0.04153653ITA_Collegno_MA:CL36
0.04185326BGR_EBA:I2165
0.04216936DEU_MA_Alemannic_o2:NIEcap3c
0.04233774ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR33
0.04253173SRB_Mokrin_EBA_Maros_oAegean:MOK17A
0.04285562ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR36
0.04318517ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR1287
0.04356558HRV_Pop_CA:pOP39
0.04359026ITA_Etruscan:RMPR474b
0.04377833Scythian_MDA:scy197
0.04395528ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR105
0.04407008HUN_BA:I7043
0.04412002Scythian_MDA:scy305
0.04495946Scythian_MDA:scy300
0.04535238Scythian_HUN:DA195
0.04543427ITA_Collegno_MA:CL23
0.04550404HRV_EBA:I3499
0.04602326Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I5524
0.04610942ITA_PoggioPelliccia_EMA:pOP001
0.04654003ITA_Tarquinia_EMA:TAQ022
0.04657406ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR111
0.04725015ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance:RMPR970
0.04741879ITA_Tarquinia_EMA:TAQ011
0.04752087DEU_MA_ACD_Baiuvaric:NW_54
0.04760093Levant_LBN_MA_o4:SI-53
0.04766521Scythian_HUN:DA198
0.04790926SRB_Mokrin_EBA_Maros:MOK20
0.04791195Bell_Beaker_CZE_late:pRU001.A0101
0.04827428HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ27
0.04839195HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ18

 
Hawk said:
I would say the evidence so far points just as the nomenclature defines the Middle-Danube Urnfield Cultures: Caka, Maho, Gava. E-V13 was scattered around these cultures, at some more at some less.

Romania/Moldavia/Ukraine didn't have any E-V13 before LBA, nor inner Balkans.
Click to expand...

Romania surely had, the question is which part, like only the Banat region close to the Danube, or the Upper Tisza area like suggested with a G?va origin. Moldova was early conquered/transformed by G?va and Transcarpathia was a secondary core zone. From these Eastern groups a large fraction of the Fluted Ware Southern groups seems to descend from, so these Psenichevo Thracian E-V13 could come both from Belegis II-G?va in Southern Romania-Northern Serbia or the Carpathian-Moldovan group. Some authors give one more importance for Bulgaria, the other prefer the opposite.
For such a huge scale, rapid expansion, with massive group founder effects, not just of single individuals, but whole groups of clans, you always need an ethnic replacement event. And the primary group for that is G?va/Channelled Ware and Psenichevo-Basarabi, which are basically just different shapes of the same (Daco-Thracian) theme. By the way, G?va was considered Daco-Thracian/Proto-Thracian in the past already, E-V13 might just serve as a mean to prove it.

The Vekerzugs are autosomally mostly Basarabi-Pannonian mixed derived I'd say.
 
Riverman said:
Romania surely had, the question is which part, like only the Banat region close to the Danube, or the Upper Tisza area like suggested with a G�va origin. Moldova was early conquered/transformed by G�va and Transcarpathia was a secondary core zone. From these Eastern groups a large fraction of the Fluted Ware Southern groups seems to descend from, so these Psenichevo Thracian E-V13 could come both from Belegis II-G�va in Southern Romania-Northern Serbia or the Carpathian-Moldovan group. Some authors give one more importance for Bulgaria, the other prefer the opposite.
For such a huge scale, rapid expansion, with massive group founder effects, not just of single individuals, but whole groups of clans, you always need an ethnic replacement event. And the primary group for that is G�va/Channelled Ware and Psenichevo-Basarabi, which are basically just different shapes of the same (Daco-Thracian) theme. By the way, G�va was considered Daco-Thracian/Proto-Thracian in the past already, E-V13 might just serve as a mean to prove it.

The Vekerzugs are autosomally mostly Basarabi-Pannonian mixed derived I'd say.
Click to expand...

Jeez, Riverman. I am talking about Transdanubia, Western Hungary. Historically it was called Pannonia. During historical times there was no Daco-Thracian in Central Bohemia or Southern France where E-V13 was sctretching in La Tene. For me it's a clear-cut, obvious thing already that Daco-Thracians were exclusively E-V13, i am trying to find out if E-V13 was present at other ancient nations as well.

To me, it means E-V13 was roaming somewhere between East Alps and Western Carpathians, i cannot pinpoint exactly where, for Romania North-Western part for sure, but not that east, not really.

In addition, Matzinger in his 2021 book of Illyrians puts Proto-Illyrians in Eastern Alps which spread into Western Balkans probably during Middle Bronze Age, that gives us a hint the original Proto-Illyrians were really Hugelgraberkultur/Tumulus-grave people who incorporated on their way J2b2-L283 which chances are already spoke some form of Indo-European.


Matzinger says that Thracian, Greek, Albanian and Messapian do not have common IE origin with Illyrian. This leaves a lot of things open for discussion.
 
E-V13 migrants during the IA and LBA seem always "identical" with the people they have admixed with. Like in Greece and in Northern Illyria, both of those groups overlap with their Bronze Age predecessors, genetically. I feel like this hypothesis is pretty much going down.
 
ihype02 said:
E-V13 migrants during the IA and LBA seem always "identical" with the people they have admixed with. Like in Greece and in Northern Illyria, both of those groups overlap with their Bronze Age predecessors, genetically. I feel like this hypothesis is pretty much going down.
Click to expand...

Can you elaborate more, because i didn't understood what was the hypothesis originally and what is your observation now?
 
Hawk said:
Can you elaborate more, because i didn't understood what was the hypothesis originally and what is your observation now?
Click to expand...

Iron Age Illyrians and Iron Age Greeks overlap with Bronze Age Illyrians and Bronze Age Greek.
So E-V13 being spread during the LBA would mean that E-V13 people that migrated to those zones were identical genetically for both of them, which is why I found this hypothesis a little odd.
 
ihype02 said:
Iron Age Illyrians and Iron Age Greeks overlap with Bronze Age Illyrians and Bronze Age Greek.
So E-V13 being spread during the LBA would mean that E-V13 people that migrated to those zones were identical genetically for both of them, which is why I found this hypothesis a little odd.
Click to expand...

Calculators like G25 will of course not spot any difference, since by Middle Bronze Age the whole South-East Europe would more or less have similar autosomal components, similar percentages with marginal differences with some more WHG in the North/West and more CHG in the South/East.
 
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