Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[Hawk]

Since it was brought. As for Thracian and Illyrian culture, i think Thracians were more advanced, especially if you compare Odrysian Kingdom with Illyrians, Thycidides wrote that Odrysian Kingdom on their time was the richest kingdom in Europe. As for strength, Thucydides favored Scythians as best warriors in Europe and Asia if united.

But, that was his subjective opinion anyway. Scythians had this mounted warfare, probably they used the mounted archer tactics, and could never go deeper in Europe into more mountainous terrains since close combat and infrantry wasn't their thing.

97. The empire of the Odrysae measured by the coast-line reaches from the city of Abdera to the¹⁹⁵ mouth of the Ister in the Euxine. The voyage round can be made by a merchant vessel, if the wind is favourable the whole way, at the quickest in four days and as many nights. Or an expeditious traveller going by land from Abdera to the mouth of the Ister, if he takes the shortest route, will accomplish the journey in eleven days. [2] Such was the extent of the Odrysian empire towards the sea: up the country the land journey from Byzantium to the Laeaeans and to the Strymon, this being the longest line which can be drawn from the sea into the interior, may be accomplished by an expeditious traveller in thirteen days. [3] The tribute which was collected from the Hellenic cities and from all the barbarous nations in the reign of Seuthes, the successor of Sitalces, under whom the amount was greatest, was valued at about four hundred talents of coined money¹⁹⁶, reckoning only gold and silver. Presents of gold and silver equal in value to the tribute, besides stuffs embroidered or plain and other articles, were also brought, not only to the king himself, but to the inferior chiefs and nobles of the Odrysae. [4] For their custom was the opposite of that which prevailed in the Persian kingdom; they were more ready to receive than to give; and he who asked and was refused was not so much discredited as he who refused when he was asked. The same custom prevailed among the other Thracians in a less degree, but among the Odrysae, who were richer, more extensively; nothing could be done without presents. [5] By these means the kingdom became very powerful, and in revenue and general prosperity exceeded all the nations of Europe which lie between the Ionian Sea and the Euxine; in the size and strength of their army being second only, though far inferior, to the Scythians. [6] For if the Scythians were united, there is no nation which could compare with them, or would be capable of resisting them¹⁹⁷; I do not say in Europe, but even in Asia—not that they are at all on a level with other nations in sense, or in that intelligence which uses to advantage the ordinary means of life.

https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0105:book=2

 

[Hawk]

Btw, the Daunian paper which was recently fully published gives an indirect hint that the initial J2b2-L283 might have been more rich in pure CHG (other than with mixed form coming with Yamnaya_Steppe) .

Another signal coming from qpAdm analyses is the apparent excess of CHG ancestry in IAA; however, the predominant contribution of CHG to the Steppe-related ancestry that, by the Iron Age, had already spread to the Mediterranean area makes it hard to properly detect a CHG signature independent from the Steppe wave, possibly brought by pan-Mediterranean influxes. When directly investigated with an f4 framework, IAA shows generally more CHG than Mycenaean, less CHG than contemporary Croatian_EIA and, in some cases (ORD019, SGR002 and the Mediaeval SGR001 with Z-scores higher than 2) more CHG than older Croatian samples (_N=Neolithic and _MN=Middle Neolithic) (Supplementary fig. 8).

https://watermark.silverchair.com/m..._1sxURWEEqaNo5H6qr4LQtJBGPCQqOaX8R8LqgObAsMl8

and they mention Croatia as likely source of Daunian Illyrian component.

It is not clear whether these connections indicate a movement of people or a sharing ofcultural ideas and a conclusive answer to the origin of the Daunians remains elusive. From aparsimony perspective, the genetic results point to an autochthonous origin (e.g. a geneticcontinuity of Daunians with the population that inhabited the area prior to the examined historicalperiod), here mainly marked by the presence of WHG signature, although we cannot excludeadditional influences from Croatia (ancient Illyria), as described by available historical sourcesand by the material remains (De Juliis 1988; Norman 2016).

 

[Archetype0ne]

Btw, the Daunian paper which was recently fully published gives an indirect hint that the initial J2b2-L283 might have been more rich in pure CHG (other than with mixed form coming with Yamnaya_Steppe) .



and they mention Croatia as likely source of Daunian Illyrian component.

Very interesting, Hunters adaptation to Anthony's Caucasus/Yamnaya vector of expansion to L283, indeed fits the narrative.

 

[enter_tain]

They mentioned Croatia because that's all they tested. I feel like these guys are clueless, and the raw data just carries their careers.

Interpretation wise these scholars have given us almost 0. We have to make maps and rely on guys like Hunter to expand on it.

 

[Archetype0ne]

To be fair, that is all they can say I suspect. Given the low resolution of the samples (why is a good questions), and the current lack of auDNA from just across the Adriatic, in Albania and Southern Balkans.

 

[enter_tain]

The issue is we have historians with no knowledge of genetics and linguistics, linguists with no knowledge of archelogy and genetics and here geneticists with no knowledge of history and linguists.

What happens then? Then the amateurs who know all 3 become more reliable, because even though they might not know 100% as the specialists, they know 70% about each field and on average they are more correct. It's better to be 70% in everything, than 100% in 1 field, and 20% in every other field.

 

[Hawk]

There is one culture called Matt-Painted Pottery Culture which migrated from Southern Albania to Southern Italy which was like a connecting dot, but the problem with this culture is that there is no clear connection with Glasinac-Mat, or Posusje and related cultures. Atleast i could not find it.

They are quoting (De Juliis 1988; Norman 2016) to base their assumption from Croatia. I don't know who are they, probably archeologists.

The issue is we have historians with no knowledge of genetics and linguistics, linguists with no knowledge of archelogy and genetics and here geneticists with no knowledge of history and linguists.


What happens then? Then the amateurs who know all 3 become more reliable, because even though they might not know 100% as the specialists, they know 70% about each field and on average they are more correct. It's better to be 70% in everything, than 100% in 1 field, and 20% in every other field.

Do you ever doubt yourself that you might be a victim of your own confirmation bias? Or everyone is a clown to you lol.

 

[Aspurg]

(1) There was no single literary Illyrian language. It was a wide territory inhabited for >2000 years.

Proto-Slavs and Proto-Germanics inhabited much larger territory and there was a single literary language in those cases.

There should be multiple Illyrian dialects/languages, like there are multiple Latin languages (French, Italian, Spanish), Slavic (Russian, Polish, Bulgarian), Germanic, etc... You can still do analysis on these languages, since they are related, but we don't know what dialect/language is related to what, and how the Albanoi dialect related to the rest of the dialects.

This is not about mere dialects, this is about proven phonetic changes in Illyrian and Albanian/Proto-Albanian which must match each other in order for these languages to show any relation one to another..

PIE ḱ turned into s in Illyrian, as attested by the Asamum, by slavicized Osum in Albania, and some toponyms in Montenegro.
PIE ḱ turned into th in Albanian, PAlb. ts


PIE ǵʰ turned into Z in Illyrian. The old attested name of Podgorica, a literal translation of slav. Podgorica - Bersumno, Birziminium. Also in Slavic reflex Brzinje.
PIE ǵʰ turned into d(h) in early Albanian. dz was PAlb.


So "Podgorica" in core Illyrian lands is actually an Illyrian toponym and it doesn't mean anything in Albanian.
What else needs to be said..

These are some early phonetic changes that are different in Albanian and Illyrian and there are more. These reflect fundamental non-relation of these languages.


BTW where is this Illyrian word berz denoting a mountain, related to German Berg. Unlike Mal it didn't enter Albanian. Where is asmon, Illyrian for "stone" in Albanian? I think I remember maybe one such word, very mutated, but the Alb. the word used mostly is guri. Thracian word was also similar or same, Asmon.

Actually there is one toponym attested in 6th century AD which possibly seem to reflect the early Albanian (Late Antiquity) ǵʰ -> d change, but it is not located in Illyria. It is located in an area where other toponyms which are of early Albanian origin developed. Not far from Niš/Nish.

 

[torzio]

Yeah I'm talking about contemporary sources, not foundation myths.
All foundation myths are X is son of Zeus, Y is the daughter of Aphrodite, etc... Illyrus was 1 guy according to Greek mythology that was brothers with Celtus and Gallus.

Illyrus that was brothers with Celts and Gauls .....................they left out the Italic-celtic-illyrian union circa 2200BC

 

[Aspurg]

Are you sure @broder?

How can you explain Piperi tribesmen wearing the same garment? Also same w the Shala in Albania? It just seemed widespread in tribes during that era regardless.

Here, Peshter Kelmendi and other descended people showing pictures of their ancestors sporting this garment. As they arrived there around 310 years ago they must have had it back then.

At 22:55 he asks Shkreli are you Shqiptar or Bosnjak.:awesome: 22:18 did he say "Shqip sprechen(m) sie".

 

[Hawk]

Well, that dude atleast looks like he can put some good jokes. You will not be bored in his company haha.

 

[enter_tain]

Proto-Slavs and Proto-Germanics inhabited much larger territory and there was a single literary language in those cases.



This is not about mere dialects, this is about proven phonetic changes in Illyrian and Albanian/Proto-Albanian which must match each other in order for these languages to show any relation one to another..

PIE ḱ turned into s in Illyrian, as attested by the Asamum, by slavicized Osum in Albania, and some toponyms in Montenegro.
PIE ḱ turned into th in Albanian, PAlb. ts


PIE ǵʰ turned into Z in Illyrian. The old attested name of Podgorica, a literal translation of slav. Podgorica - Bersumno, Birziminium. Also in Slavic reflex Brzinje.
PIE ǵʰ turned into d(h) in early Albanian. dz was PAlb.


So "Podgorica" in core Illyrian lands is actually an Illyrian toponym and it doesn't mean anything in Albanian.
What else needs to be said..

These are some early phonetic changes that are different in Albanian and Illyrian and there are more. These reflect fundamental non-relation of these languages.


BTW where is this Illyrian word berz denoting a mountain, related to German Berg. Unlike Mal it didn't enter Albanian. Where is asmon, Illyrian for "stone" in Albanian? I think I remember maybe one such word, very mutated, but the Alb. the word used mostly is guri. Thracian word was also similar or same, Asmon.

Actually there is one toponym attested in 6th century AD which possibly seem to reflect the early Albanian (Late Antiquity) ǵʰ -> d change, but it is not located in Illyria. It is located in an area where other toponyms which are of early Albanian origin developed. Not far from Niš/Nish.

Albania is tiny, and we have 2 major dialects. a become e, n becomes r. There are MAJOR changes. Why wouldn't there be subdivisions in Illyria that is >1000 km old, and settled what, 2000 BC? It's ridiculous to assume they were all uniform.

Even genetically there is a clear division. Southern Illyrians are Z638. Croatian/Slovenian Illyrians belong to more upstream branches.

You mention Messapian, but Messapian is a clear "upstream" version of Illyrian. If they render the "dz" as "z" than it was likely Bardzyli and Greeks rendered it as Bardyli to match their language.

 

[enter_tain]

Do you ever doubt yourself that you might be a victim of your own confirmation bias? Or everyone is a clown to you lol.

Everything I claim has been backed by multiple authors, new AND old. I don't make up fake facts/populations.

The Albanoi have been recorded in that region for 2500 years. You even had an "Arbaios" last name in Finiq/Phoenice from 200-300 BC. There is 0 evidence of a new population moving in there. All Byzantine sources have tracked that continuity there.

An inscription in ancient Greek in Phoenice, southern Albania related to the liberation act of the slave Nikarchos Nikomachou Arbaios is linked to the Albanoi as Arbaios is an ethnonym which has the same root as that of the Albanoi and hasn't been attested anywhere else.[19] Arbaios is considered to not have been a local of the city, but someone who had been moved there from more northern areas in central Albania.[20] The inscription was excavated in the 1920s by Luigi Ugolini. It dates to the 3rd/2nd century BCE.[1]

 

[broder]

Here, Peshter Kelmendi and other descended people showing pictures of their ancestors sporting this garment. As they arrived there around 310 years ago they must have had it back then.

At 22:55 he asks Shkreli are you Shqiptar or Bosnjak.:awesome: 22:18 did he say "Shqip sprechen(m) sie".

They were super connected to Kosove especially Peje and Rugove prior to WW2, before Serbs decided to cut them off and isolate them.

 

[Hawk]

Everything I claim has been backed by multiple authors, new AND old. I don't make up fake facts/populations.

The Albanoi have been recorded in that region for 2500 years. You even had an "Arbaios" last name in Finiq/Phoenice from 200-300 BC. There is 0 evidence of a new population moving in there. All Byzantine sources have tracked that continuity there.

An inscription in ancient Greek in Phoenice, southern Albania related to the liberation act of the slave Nikarchos Nikomachou Arbaios is linked to the Albanoi as Arbaios is an ethnonym which has the same root as that of the Albanoi and hasn't been attested anywhere else.[19] Arbaios is considered to not have been a local of the city, but someone who had been moved there from more northern areas in central Albania.[20] The inscription was excavated in the 1920s by Luigi Ugolini. It dates to the 3rd/2nd century BCE.[1]

You just want to fit your own narrative, something which no one here gives a f u c k.

 

[Johane Derite]

Noel Malcolm mentions that there were recorded migrations of refugees from Nish and Sofia:

"Refugees from central Balkan towns such as Nis and Sofia fled to the safety of Salonica at first, but many must have gone back home later.

The main towns on the Dalmatian and northern Albanian coastline, too, retained their Latin-speaking populations and stayed under Byzantine rule. (For naval and commercial reasons, Durres was the most important Byzantine possession on the entire Adriatic coast of the Balkans.)

But outside the major cities there are signs of decline and contraction; typical of the seventh to ninth centuries are the remains of small townships based on hill-forts, such as the one at Koman in the mountains of north-central Albania, where a Christian and probably Romanized (Latin-speaking) population must have led a rather limited existence. "

So here we have at least on recorded instance of migrations, and precisely from the regions near Nish and Shtip, this opens up the possibilty that proto-Albanian speakers were also among these migrations.

 

[Johane Derite]

Earlier, we have accounts of around 150,000 Getae, or "trans-Danubaians" being settled in Moesia in the first century AD.

This is particularly important as at this time Dardania was a region in Moesia Superior.

Could proto-Albanian speakers have been among these 150,000?

Or could these "transdanubian" migrants have pushed proto-Albanian shepherds further soutwest?

 

[mount123]

Here, Peshter Kelmendi and other descended people showing pictures of their ancestors sporting this garment. As they arrived there around 310 years ago they must have had it back then.

At 22:55 he asks Shkreli are you Shqiptar or Bosnjak.:awesome: 22:18 did he say "Shqip sprechen(m) sie".

He says: "Shqip sprechen Sie" which is very embarassing.
[FONT=&quot]
Most of the Albanophone population in Rascia was there before. There's never been anything like a Paleo Balkan incursion into „Slavic“ land. (Slavs are not native to that area to begin with)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Watch the documentary about the Nish genocide. In 1877/1878 when Serbs got to enlarge "their country" by 80%, the fact that the population in these territories was Paleo Balkan did not matter to the powers of the time, especially the Ottoman Empire and the Russian Tsarist Empire, the Albanians were brutally massacred and exterminated. There are a lot of Albanians that fled to Kosovo or Ilirida with origin from "Leskovac", Nish or Prokupe.[/FONT]

 

[mount123]

Watch the documentary about the Nish genocide. In 1877/1878 when Serbs got to enlarge "their country" by 80%, the fact that the population in these territories was Paleo Balkan did not matter to the powers of the time, especially the Ottoman Empire and the Russian Tsarist Empire, the Albanians were brutally massacred and exterminated. There are a lot of Albanians that fled to Kosovo or Ilirida with origin from "Leskovac", Nish or Prokupe.

My paternal great great grandmother was from Kotorr she was forced to hand her parents house to Serbs that were settled there from Bosnia. She was lucky enough to survive. We know where her house is and visited Kotorr multiple times. I don't even want to imagine what my ancestors had to go through seeing all of their property and thousands of years of history taken away from them.

 

[Dardapara]

Lol Dardha aka Kamenica is filled with Kastrati and Korbi people. Linking all J2b-L283 in Kosovo to Krasniqi and those Krasniqis in Western Kosovo that integrated into the Gashi tribe is quite pathetic. We have a solid number of represented J2b-L283 tribes in Kosovo: Krasniqi, Kastrat, Hoti, Korbi.

The biggest J2b-L283 tribes in Kosovo are: Krasniqi (mostly Rrafshi Prishtines), Kastrati (mostly Dardha aka Kamenica), Hoti (mostly West Kosovo which is not a surprise) and Korbi (mostly East Kosovo).

The three Gash t'gurit that tested J2b-L283 fall under the Krasniqi clade so most likely integrated into the real Thaqi Tribe being E1b-L241.

That’s not true. Gashi I Gurit is a tribe in itself and has nothing to do with Krasniqi, except for sharing a TMRCA of ~ 900ybp with them and Nikaj. Gashi as an anthroponym has been mentioned since 1485, then in 1634, as a tribe / village in 1636 by Bardhi, in 1651 by Bogdani etc.
Frang Bardhi in the visit of 1634 in the village of Gash, which is supposed to be GegHyseni, says that the first of the Gashi tribe was Pjeter Spani, the ruler of Pult. Based on the latest genetic studies, it seems to be kinda true. According to Elsie, Gashi was the first tribe of Tropoja and lived there long before Krasniqja came. Based on its tribal scheme, but also based on the TMRCA, Krasniqja must have come to Tropoja around the years 1550-1600.
In 1689 we have the letter of the "Krenat e Gashit", addressed to the Pope of Rome, where they asked for priests for their churches.

Right after the letter of the leaders of Gashi, somewhere between 1693 - 1695, the Pasha of Peja, conducted an expedition and destroyed whole Gashi and moved all its inhabitants to the Dukagjini Plain. That was a very big turning point for the Gashi tribe. This tribe that settled in the Dukagjini Plain at that time was still Catholic, and today is scattered throughout Kosovo, in Llap, Gollak, Anamorave, as well as in Drenice and Dukagjini Plain. That tribe was Gashi I Gurit, that is, the real Gashi, the descendants of the noble medieval family of Spani, who has no blood connection with the Bardhet e Gashit(Whites of Gashi) which today live in Tropoje, nor are they "integrated" in the tribe of Krasniqi as you claim. After the settlement of Gashi i Gurit in Kosovo, Krasniqi began to migrate west and populate the old settlements of Gashi in Tropoje.

Bardhet e Gashit on the other hand, multiplied and expanded their settlements, and since mid 1700 until today, are known as synonymous with the Gashi tribe. Today they inhabit all the villages of Gashi of Tropoja, except Luzha which is Gash i Gurit(J2b-L283) and which was formed by the Aga of Botosha sometime after 1700. Bardhet together with Shipshaj, are both E-V13>PH2180. In Kosovo, although there are few tested, most of the Gash are Gash i Gurit (J2b-L283). Normally, there are families that have joined the Gashi tribe in Kosovo as well, but what is more important, so far, no tested Gashi brotherhood of Bardhi or even Shipshan has been encountered yet.

To be frank, Gashi i Gurit is not Krasniqe, nor Krasniqja is Gash i Gurit. Not even Nikaj belong to the Krasniqi tribe. The real Krasniq are those who share a TMRCA of 500ybp and who are the descendants of the Kolmekshaj, Hysenmekshaj and Kolgecaj brotherhood.

The last common ancestor of these three tribes(Gashi i Gurit, Krasniqja and Nikaj) lived about 900 years ago. The paternal line of the Gashi tribe has been separated since then, while the Nikaj and Krasniqe share even closer common ancestors, until about 600-700 years ago. Also in this subclade is an Arberesh of Italy and an Albanian from Syria, who claims to be from the Dukagjini tribe. If this is true, then it once again confirms the origin of Gashi i Gurit from the noble medieval family of Spani (Pjeter Spani, Leke Spani), because according to M.Sufflay, the Spani was the same tribe with Dukagjini.


Long story short, do not mess around with history.