Ancient balkan states Y-DNA

[enter_tain]

Btw, here is some mentions of Iapodyes, which were some of the "Illyrian" samples.

Their culture is largely nebulous due to the lack of material evidence. The Iapydes are believed to have been an Illyrian subgroup or mixed^[1][2] nation of Celts and Pannonian^[3]Illyrians with a strong Venetic element.^[4]

At the end of the day "Illyrian" are just what the Greeks and Romans called. They ultimately define what is and isn't. These tribes probably didn't even use those names.

 

[torzio]

Btw, here is some mentions of Iapodyes, which were some of the "Illyrian" samples.

Their culture is largely nebulous due to the lack of material evidence. The Iapydes are believed to have been an Illyrian subgroup or mixed^[1][2] nation of Celts and Pannonian^[3]Illyrians with a strong Venetic element.^[4]

At the end of the day "Illyrian" are just what the Greeks and Romans called. They ultimately define what is and isn't. These tribes probably didn't even use those names.

The tribes never called themselves illyrian and neither did the romans call them illyiran

The romans used a term called illyricum as an area to govern and not based on tribal names

 

[enter_tain]

The tribes never called themselves illyrian and neither did the romans call them illyiran
The romans used a term called illyricum as an area to govern and not based on tribal names

You're confusing the Roman province of Illyricum with the actual ethnicity of Illyrian. The Romans did use the term Illyrian to designate an ethnic group. It wasn't just a province name.

 

[Fustan]

He identifies as "Kosovan" like some of these other Albanian youth from Kosove, who act like we are two different ethnicities.

A lot of Kosovo Albanians have become mentally ill from the war. It is a sad state of affairs.

 

[Archetype0ne]

This is ridiculous. Someone makes a bait post and that is all it takes for you guys to be at each others throats.

Also Fustan that is a horrible thing to say. I know there are idiotic statements in here, but that is no reason for you to make an even bigger mess of it.

In my book Kosovars are among the coolest Albanians.
If someone like mount123 feels like calling himself Kosovan, by all means its his right. Pretending otherwise only has the opposite effect.

Am just defending mounts right here, cause otherwise for someone being trained in STEM he sure turns out incoherent at times.
There are some idiotic theories going around on this forum from otherwise rational sounding people. Illyrians and Albanians ethnos being historically mutually exclusive one of the more moronic ones.


Am not sure if its the need to stand out and be cool, have unique theories, or what... but new members pop up sounding rational, one week later they go on a tangents following wild rabbitholes.

 

[Fustan]

Also Fustan that is a horrible thing to say. I know there are idiotic statements in here, but that is no reason for you to make an even bigger mess of it.

How is it a horrible thing to say? It's completely true. I'm not saying all Kosovars are like that but it's just what happened from the war unfortunately, almost every Kosovar knows that and brings it up at some point, especially us in the diaspora who migrated earlier before the war.

It's really the only explanation anyway for someone like him to completely undermine and insult our Albanian ethnicity. If you want to respect a person like that you might as well respect a chetnik or something. Respect has to be earned and I simply do not tolerate people who attack my people, it's really that simple.

 

[1337]

This is ridiculous. Someone makes a bait post and that is all it takes for you guys to be at each others throats.

Also Fustan that is a horrible thing to say. I know there are idiotic statements in here, but that is no reason for you to make an even bigger mess of it.

In my book Kosovars are among the coolest Albanians.
If someone like mount123 feels like calling himself Kosovan, by all means its his right. Pretending otherwise only has the opposite effect.

Am just defending mounts right here, cause otherwise for someone being trained in STEM he sure turns out incoherent at times.
There are some idiotic theories going around on this forum from otherwise rational sounding people. Illyrians and Albanians ethnos being historically mutually exclusive one of the more moronic ones.


Am not sure if its the need to stand out and be cool, have unique theories, or what... but new members pop up sounding rational, one week later they go on a tangents following wild rabbitholes.

You have to be totally delusional to deny your Albanian ancestors and claim some artificial ethnicity like ''Kosovan'' . Sure you are have the right to identify and believe in whatever you want in my opinion but to actually try and even deny historical and genetic facts without any basis...

 

[Archetype0ne]

I would re read my comment guys. There are some subtle statements in there. You seem to think I disagree with your opinions. I thought the not so subtle "moronic" part of my comment would have made it clear what my opinions on the various theories being thrown around are.

 

[kl1ki]

Kind of reminds me of the situation of Albanians in Montenegro, where some Albanians prefer to identify as Montenegrin or Muslim.

 

[Dibran]

How is it a horrible thing to say? It's completely true. I'm not saying all Kosovars are like that but it's just what happened from the war unfortunately, almost every Kosovar knows that and brings it up at some point, especially us in the diaspora who migrated earlier before the war.

It's really the only explanation anyway for someone like him to completely undermine and insult our Albanian ethnicity. If you want to respect a person like that you might as well respect a chetnik or something. Respect has to be earned and I simply do not tolerate people who attack my people, it's really that simple.

I agree. It also undermines the struggle, both past and present of Albanians in Kosove. Sure we can reference tribal identities and geographic idioms like Kosovar, Dibran, etc. But, trying to champion some non-existent identity as "Kosovan" whilst pretending Albanians and the Albanian language is somehow different from those in Kosove is to help every Cetniks dream of driving a bigger wedge between our people.

Adem Jashari and the countless others who gave their lives in the war would not have taken kindly to this nonsensical stuff.

 

[Dibran]

Kind of reminds me of the situation of Albanians in Montenegro, where some Albanians prefer to identify as Montenegrin or Muslim.

Yea, I see it with some from there as well. More often than not though, it's those who have been mixing for generations and have some sort of dual-identity now. However, mount is a full blown Albanian from Kosove. The fact he actually tries to distinguish the two as separate races, and waves his Kosovan identity like it is an entirely different ethnic group from Albanians is concerning.

 

[enter_tain]

Their theory is dumb and makes no sense. Southern Albanians have the least amount of J2B2. So if these "EV-13 Dardanian Proto-Albanians" came into Albania from the north, why would southern Albania have less "Illyrian J2B2" and more EV-13? Shouldn't it be the other way around?

Not everything that comes out of Albania is propaganda/lies. Was it also propaganda that we're native to the Balkans? Just because they might use something for nationalism it doesn't automatically make it wrong, including the Illyrian/Albanian theory. There are dozens of western historians, archeologists, linguists that support Illyrian-Albanian continuity. It's the main/default theory, and with Messapian linguistic studies it's become even more evident.

While I do think the original proto-Illyrians 4000 years ago or something in Central Europe were J2B2-heavy, it doesn't mean southern Illyrians living on the border with Greece in 500 AD, were exactly the same. It's like comparing Neolithic steppe people to modern IE people. Given the autosomal profiles of modern Albanians being almost identical to Greeks, and proximity to ancient Greeks, we can see that they're rooted in the southern Balkans genetically. Samples like Bulgarian IA/Croatian IA are different and not ancestral even if their Y-DNA is similar.

 

[1337]

There is no evidence that Dardanians were EV-13 or pred. EV-13. It's just some nonsense theory using some modern Kosovar Albanians and some Kosovo Serbs. I wouldn't be surprised if IA samples from Kosovo turned out to be J2b2-L283.

 

[1337]

Samples from Croatia obviously represent a wave of the same populations that settled Albania etc. While they don't cluster like Albanians modern Albanians do have some of their autosomal DNA. And some of them come out like 70% similar to Albanians or many Albanians get the similar autosomal profile + something else which makes them differ at the same time. Also Greece has been settled by many different people. Many Albanians cluster more north than Greeks. While it's possible Illyrian samples from Albania close to the Greek border will cluster like Greeks. It's also possible for other regions such as Dardania. The IA in Bulgaria was very southern.
Albania was also composed of many Illyrian tribes. And these people lived in the Balkans for thousands of years and were occupied by the Romans for hundreds of years. It seems also delusional to claim that proto-Albanians only lived in Albania. How can you be sure of that ? There were also many Vlachs that were assimilated. There could also be other ancestral populations or tribes that contributed.

 

[1337]

I personally do not cluster like a Greek for example while I have seen many Albanians do. I am closer to Northern Italians.

 

[torzio]

I personally do not cluster like a Greek for example while I have seen many Albanians do. I am closer to Northern Italians.

Interesting .............the only Northern-Italian rule over any parts of Albania was by the republic of Venice from 1392 to 1501 in one town only called Durres................that one town sat in with all the coastal montenegrian towns that Venice held under the zone name Albania Veneta
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venet...ian_seaside_properties_in_Montenegro_1448.png
The Montenegro part stayed under Venice until 1797 , never conquered by the Ottomans
Are you from originally from Northern Albania or further north ?

 

[torzio]

Samples from Croatia obviously represent a wave of the same populations that settled Albania etc. While they don't cluster like Albanians modern Albanians do have some of their autosomal DNA. And some of them come out like 70% similar to Albanians or many Albanians get the similar autosomal profile + something else which makes them differ at the same time. Also Greece has been settled by many different people. Many Albanians cluster more north than Greeks. While it's possible Illyrian samples from Albania close to the Greek border will cluster like Greeks. It's also possible for other regions such as Dardania. The IA in Bulgaria was very southern.
Albania was also composed of many Illyrian tribes. And these people lived in the Balkans for thousands of years and were occupied by the Romans for hundreds of years. It seems also delusional to claim that proto-Albanians only lived in Albania. How can you be sure of that ? There were also many Vlachs that were assimilated. There could also be other ancestral populations or tribes that contributed.

Which Illyrian tribes ? ............I only know of 2 and they came from Budva area of Montengro originally

 

[torzio]

For example, the Taulantii, an Illyrian tribe in modern Albania are said to of allied with the Dardani




I certainly wouldn't take the description of all these supposed ancient authors very serious. Although the name Illyrian came to be applied to all the people of the Western Balkans by Greek authors during the transition period into the Roman period.

yes allied to the Dardani after they where pushed out of Budva Montenegro by other illyrian tribes coming south...........the taulantii replaced the Bryges/phryrians in current Albania

Phrygians were initially dwelling in the southern Balkans – according to Herodotus – under the name of Bryges (Briges)

 

[1337]

Greek-like or Albanian-like samples can even be found in Romania before the Slavic period and were even found in Hungary for example.

Ancient Greek samples don't cluster like modern Greeks anyway, they were extremely Southern. And the one more north in Greece was closer to Kosovo Albanian rather than other Albanians. There is also variation in plotting among Albanian populations with some Southern Albanians almost being Sicilian like and not Greek like, they are even more southern than some mainland Greece. In Greece there is also some Slavic influence depending on the region, some areas of the Peloponnese have the least Slavic influence, there were also Vlachs that settled Greece, Bulgarians, Arvanite. Those samples in Croatia don't cluster like Albanians but saying that they are not ancestral is nonsense maybe not ancestral as in recently but it obviously represents the same wave of Indo European settlers or whatever they were, and in some cases some of this autosomal DNA doesn't seem to of been entirely washed out, some of it was inherited like 50%-77%. They clustered like Italians but some samples in Montenegro, close to the border with Albania, clustered like Iberians actually. Also the Iron Age in Bulgaria was very southern. I wouldn't be surprised if samples from the Republic of Macedonia turned out to be Greek like or Tuscan like for example or samples from Kosovo. Or maybe even southern than that like the IA Bulgarian. Neither would I be surprised if they clustered like Italians.

There is also the question of the origin of the Romanian/Aromanian language and their native Balkan ancestry actually seems to be similar to Albanians or almost Greek-like, Tuscan like etc depending on the person. Slavic Macedonians also seem Albanian-like in a lot of cases, it could also be due to intermixing.

And Albanian language has very little Greek influence except for some Ancient Greek loan words, and Greek mythology. It obviously suggests that Albanians did live close to Ancient Greeks at one point but during the Roman period were more influenced by Latin while not being Latinized. The Mat region had the least Latin influence and was at the border of the Jirecek line. Nothing suggests an origin more Southern than that yet you also have Albanians who believe in the whole ''Epirote'' theory. While the Albanian homeland was not too far away from the Epirote in this case and Albania was referred to as Epirus by the Romans.

There is also mention of ''Albanos'' and Albanoi in Macedonia. And they are mentioned in Southern Albania. The question is more where did the language itself survive, or the people that came to be known as Albanians, rather than where did the proto-Albanians live since they could of lived anywhere, then I agree that the language might of survived somewhere in Northern/Central Albania where also the Gheg-Tosk split happened. Or between the Mat and Shkumbin river. It's possible the Illyrian population that lived in these areas were indeed like modern Albanians that live there today.

 

[torzio]

Yea, I see it with some from there as well. More often than not though, it's those who have been mixing for generations and have some sort of dual-identity now. However, mount is a full blown Albanian from Kosove. The fact he actually tries to distinguish the two as separate races, and waves his Kosovan identity like it is an entirely different ethnic group from Albanians is concerning.

Interesting is that Kosovo will get EU membership in 2025 and Albania will not

Albania has been focused overwhelmingly on trying to join the EU, which does not accept the idea of Albanian national unification with Kosovo