Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[Excine]

Stop with the cope. Its been posted countless times now on this thread, he says Messapic is not of the East Alpine Block but of the Balkan IE group, Illyrian is East Alpine Block

You're the one coping and acting as if Matzinger has ever said that Albanian or Messapic are unrelated to Illyrian when in fact he has said the opposite. Matzinger literally has written that Albanian is closely related to Illyrian and yet you're trying to ignore that and act as if Illyrian is ... close to Italic and far away from Albanian.

The weirdest part is that you're trying to deny something which we already know: Messapians were a group of Illyrians and just like Illyrians they carried the same haplogroups. I believe that E-V13 will eventually be found there too just like it was found among Roman Illyrians, but it's very weird that you try to deny such an obvious and proven relationship. It really shows extreme bias and dishonesty about what scholarship has to say.

All papers one after another have distanced Albanian from Thrace and you're still posting the same fringe stuff. It's just pointless at this point.

 

[enter_tain]

Messapic is really the missing link between Illyrian and Albanian since we have no written records of Illyrians.

We know Messapians have genetic/archeological links to Illyrians, and also linguistic links to modern Albanian. I've been advocating for a Messapo-Illyrian group (which these guys call "Illyric" for a while).

 

[Johane Derite]

In his new book, Matzinger argues that from a linguistic perspective:

1. Messapic is not an Italic language and has no relation to Latino-Faliscan or Sabellic languages.

2. Messapic relation to Illyrian should be rejected

3. Messapic is a typical language of Balkan IE origin

 

[Johane Derite]

"Messapic also shows no agreement with Ancient Illyrian"

 

[Johane Derite]

Consequently, Albanian cannot be regarded as an offspring of Illyrian or even Thracian but must be considered to be a modern continuation of some other undocumented Indo-European Balkan idiom..

Yes, the key part of your quote being:

Consequently, Albanian cannot be regarded as an offspring of Illyrian or even Thracian

 

[Excine]

In his new book, Matzinger argues that from a linguistic perspective:
1. Messapic is not an Italic language and has no relation to Latino-Faliscan or Sabellic languages.
2. Messapic relation to Illyrian should be rejected
3. Messapic is a typical language of Balkan IE origin

You're misleading your audience again. Matzinger says that Messapic as a dialect of Illyrian can't be held as a theory for reasons he states above and because there is too little to compare Illyrian with Messapic. He's neither the first, nor the last to claim so and this is a very common and undestandable statement but nobody would deny the connection between the two.

The simple fact which genetics showed is that Messapians were an Illyrian people who carried the same haplogroups.

You simply can't connect Albanian to Messapic without Illyrians.

What's clear to everyone in the field is that Albanian has nothing to do with Thracian.

 

[Johane Derite]

You're misleading your audience again. Matzinger says that Messapic as a dialect of Illyrian can't be held as a theory for reasons he states above and because there is too little to compare Illyrian with Messapic.

The simple fact which genetics showed is that Messapians were an Illyrian people who carried the same haplogroups.

You simply can't connect Albanian to Messapic without Illyrians.

What's clear to everyone in the field is that Albanian has nothing to do with Thracian.

Im telling the truth. Your trying to launder quotes from 2018 against the authors updated views, and trying to launder quotes where he explicitly says albanian is neither illyrian or thracian as somehow arguing for illyrian. Keep up the cope.

 

[Excine]

Im telling the truth. Your trying to launder quotes from 2018 against the authors updated views, and trying to launder quotes where he explicitly says albanian is neither illyrian or thracian as somehow arguing for illyrian. Keep up the cope.

"I'm telling the truth" is not a very good argument. You're consciously misleading your audience into believing that authors who are writing the Albanian is closely related to Illyrian are saying the opposite and then trying to pretend that Messapic a language spoken by people of the same haplogroup and even clades as Illyrians has nothing to do with them.

 

[Johane Derite]

"I'm telling the truth" is not a very good argument when. You're consciously misleading your audience into believing that authors who are writing the Albanian is closely related to Illyrian are saying the opposite and then trying to pretend that Messapic a language spoken by people of the same haplogroup and even clades as Illyrians has nothing to do with them.

Im sharing the authors direct quotes from 2022, their latest publications, where they outright say Albanian is not descended from Illyrian. Its stated clearly. Everything else is cope, trying to launder an opposing cope opinion into his work. I sleep with a clean conscience. I source everything with page numbers and screenshots, theres no space for me to "mislead" when the authors literal quotes are right there.

 

[enter_tain]

Messapics and Illyrians have been linked for a long time archeologically, and after that latest study, now they're linked genetically. I don't really give a shit what Matzinger wrote, but denying any links between the two on "linguistic" grounds, means that Matzinger sucks at linguistics.

There are no doubts about these links anymore. Messapics represent an Illyrian migration into east Italy, and the Albanian language is clearly related to Messapic.

 

[Pashai Janinës]

Paske qenë shumë hajvan o njeri. Si mund të flasësh për etnogjenezën e një populli dhe të mos përdorësh asnjë burim ose fakt historik? Si mund të marrësh për të mirëqëna sofizmat e një sharlatani? Ku është prova, fakti? ZERO! Nuk e marr vesh këtë dashuri kaq të madhe që të ka hipur mbas këtij Matzigerit.

Çështja e birërisë, e filacionit, d.m.th. e rrjedhjes së një populli të sotëm prej një të lashti, të një gjuhe të re e të njohur prej një gjuhë të vjetër e të zhdukur, paraqitet mjaft e lehtë kur prej popullit të lashtë e prej gjuhës së tij kemi njohuri relativisht të sakta. Po në lidhje me shqiptarët e me shqipen, kjo çështje, si u tha, mbetet veçanërisht e vështirë. Gjuhët e lashta të Ballkanit, për mungesë shkrimesh të tyre, mund të thuhet se njihen pak e aspak. Prej gjuhës së trakasve ka disa pak mbishkrime, prej gjuhës së ilirëve të Ballkanit nuk është gjetur gjer më sot asnjë mbishkrim. Mbishkrimet e mesapëve të Italisë Jugore lexohen, porse interpretimi i tyre ka mbetur gjer sot i pasigurtë. Prej të dyja gjuhëvet, ilirishtes dhe trakishtes, kanë mbetur disa të ashtuquajtura glosa, d.m.th. disa fjalë të tyre të dëshmuara prej autorësh grekë e romakë bashkë me kuptimet e tyre të dhëna greqisht a latinisht. Ka edhe një numër mjaft të madh me emra vendesh e personash, të gdhendur nëpër gurë a të dëshmuar nëpër tekste të autorëve klasikë; emra shumica me interpretim gjuhësor-kuptimor të dyshimtë dhe ku dijetarët modernë kanë gjetur prandaj një fushë të lirë për gjykime shpeshherë arbitrare. Kështu dy gjuhët në fjalë mbeten thuajse të panjohura për ne. Ne nuk ua dimë strukturën gjuhësore, as sistemin gramatikor, as fjalorin e tyre. Në këto rrethana mjetet e krahasimit mungojnë: mungon çelësi për të krahasuar materialin e shqipes me atë të dy gjuhëve në fjalë.
Duke qenë gjendja kështu, kriteri i gjuhës duhet të vështrohet së bashku me gjendjen gjeografike e historike. Në pikëpamje të gjeografisë historike dihet se shqiptarët e sotëm banojnë në ato vise ku në kohën antike banonin fise ilire. Në pikëpamje historike është vënë re me të drejtë, që sot e dy shekuj më parë, që nuk ka asnjë të dhënë, asnjë kumt historik që shqiptarët të jenë ardhës, që të kenë zënë vend në këto troje në një periodë historike të caktuar, si bie fjala aty nga mbarimi i kohës antike, ose në mesjetën e hershme. Në këto kushte vetë arsyeja e thjeshtë shtyn të pranohet që populli shqiptar është vendës, autokton në këto anë, në mos qysh prej periodave të mugëta parahistorike, së paku që prej kohës antike e këtej. Këto dy arsye, arsyeja e banimit në teritorin e dikurshëm ilir dhe arsyeja e autoktonisë, shpien vetvetiu në mendimin që shqiptarët e sotëm janë stërnipët e fiseve ilire të jugut dhe që shqipja është vazhdimi i njërit nga dialektet e vjetra ilire.

Burimi: https://peizazhe.com/2014/02/23/cabej-mbi-tezen-ilire-e-pellazge/

 

[torzio]

Messapics and Illyrians have been linked for a long time archeologically, and after that latest study, now they're linked genetically. I don't really give a shit what Matzinger wrote, but denying any links between the two on "linguistic" grounds, means that Matzinger sucks at linguistics.

There are no doubts about these links anymore. Messapics represent an Illyrian migration into east Italy, and the Albanian language is clearly related to Messapic.

Messapics arrived in Italy as part of the Daunians arrival from modern north croatia circa 1000BC

the messapic language was involved with trade with the Epirotes not before 400BC

don't you know the history of Messapics?

They never owned Taranto.......this was Greek owned , mostly spartan owned and before the Greeks it was owned by the Brutti people a sub-branch of the samnites

 

[blevins13]

Albanian is closest to Messapic and then the Illyric branch is closest to the Greco-Phrygian branch than other branches, but Albanian isn't equally close to Greek, Phrygian and Messapic.

More bullshit. Hahahaha


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

 

[Johane Derite]

From the long awaited newest publication on Indo-European phylogeny, Hyllested & Joseph argue that Albanian is closest to Greek, Armenian, Phrygian, & Mesapic and furthest from Italic, Celtic, and Indo-Iranian.


They construct a hypothetical Graeco-Albanian branch that split into Graeco-Phrygian and "Illyric".

It's interesting that this was the paper which everybody was waiting for to bring new proof or arguments that Albanian is "Illyric" and in the end the paper literally just cites Matzinger 2005 to argue that Albanian and Messapic are close, and this is somehow an argument?

Now this camp is reduced to trying to use Matzinger 2005 against Matzinger 2022.

Very sad, and very misleading how this paper was hyped up and misrepresented by Bruzmi for months as if it was going to bring forth some new data about Albanian - Illyrian relations.

But of course what else would you expect since he is nothing but a misinformation expert and spin doctor. He just got my acc banned on anthrogenica , what a loser.

 

[Hawk]

According to this models i have a feeling Albanian, Greek, Armenian might have been Early Yamnaya derived, while Illyric and Thracian Bell-Beaker/Corded-Ware related.

But Albanian is still debatable whether it's Early Yamnaya or Bell-Beaker/Corded-Ware IMO.

 

[Johane Derite]

From this quote from Diodorus Siculus, we see that there seem to have been at least territorial conquests between Calabrians and Daunians, so we need samples from each of these regions to see a clear picture

"Cannae is a plainland of Apulia, where Diomedes founded the city of Argyrippa, that is, in the Greek tongue, Argos Hippeion.

This plain has belonged to the Daunians, thereafter to the Iapygians, then to the Sallentians, and now to the people whom all men call Calabrians; it was furthermore at the boundary between Calabrians and Lombards that the great battle between them broke forth."

§ 25.19.2
Diodorus Siculus, Library 8-40

Here we have another interesting reference to the Daunians going to war against the Messapians:

"After the capture of Troy, Diomedes arrived in Argos and denounced his wife Aegialia for her behaviour when she was stirred by Aphrodite. He went to Calydon in Aitolia where he made away with Agrius and his sons. He handed over the rule of the place to his grandfather Oineus. He then sailed for Argos but was swept into the Ionian Sea by a storm. When Daunius, king of the Daunians, saw who it was that had arrived, he begged him for help in warring against the Messapians, for a share of the land and marriage to his daughter. Diomedes agreed to the proposal, drew up his men and routed the Messapians, He took his land which he assigned to the Dorians, his followers. The daughter of Daunius gave him two sons, Diomedes and Amphinomus. He died of old age in the lands of the Daunians and the Dorians buried him with honours on the isle which they called Diomedia after him."

ANTONINUS LIBERALIS, METAMORPHOSES

 

[torzio]

Here we have another interesting reference to the Daunians going to war against the Messapians:
"After the capture of Troy, Diomedes arrived in Argos and denounced his wife Aegialia for her behaviour when she was stirred by Aphrodite. He went to Calydon in Aitolia where he made away with Agrius and his sons. He handed over the rule of the place to his grandfather Oineus. He then sailed for Argos but was swept into the Ionian Sea by a storm. When Daunius, king of the Daunians, saw who it was that had arrived, he begged him for help in warring against the Messapians, for a share of the land and marriage to his daughter. Diomedes agreed to the proposal, drew up his men and routed the Messapians, He took his land which he assigned to the Dorians, his followers. The daughter of Daunius gave him two sons, Diomedes and Amphinomus. He died of old age in the lands of the Daunians and the Dorians buried him with honours on the isle which they called Diomedia after him."
ANTONINUS LIBERALIS, METAMORPHOSES

if this is correct .............and we definitely know from 30 years of archeological digs, that the Trojan war ( against Troy 6 ) was dated at 1085BC ................then the Daunians where in Italy before 1000BC as some have stated

This also reflects the very old story that Dorians lived in modern south-albania ( north of the epirotes ) as they needed to be near the sea and have a fleet to attack the greek islands.......crete, rhodes etc etc

 

[Excine]

It's interesting that this was the paper which everybody was waiting for to bring new proof or arguments that Albanian is "Illyric" and in the end the paper literally just cites Matzinger 2005 to argue that Albanian and Messapic are close, and this is somehow an argument?

Now this camp is reduced to trying to use Matzinger 2005 against Matzinger 2022.

Very sad, and very misleading how this paper was hyped up and misrepresented by Bruzmi for months as if it was going to bring forth some new data about Albanian - Illyrian relations.

But of course what else would you expect since he is nothing but a misinformation expert and spin doctor. He just got my acc banned on anthrogenica , what a loser.

I saw that your newest sock account was blocked on anthrogenica, but what did you expect the admins to do? You have been banned since 2021 and you're trying to sneak in a site which has banned you for not following its code of conduct.

This paper was supposed to bring new information about Albanian-Illyrian relations? Nobody expected it to do such a thing but it did provide validation for a common Albanian-Messapic ("Illyric") branch.

It framed Albanian as linked with Messapic and in doing so it dismantled the fringe theories which you have been exclusively promoting about Thracian, Cimmerian and everything else from the eastern Balkans and it throwed into the trash bin all ludicrous theories about connections of Albanian to Balto-Slavic.

Since the people who brought Messapic to Italy definitely had J-L283 as a major lineage, it shows once more without a single doubt that J-L283 itself was part of Proto-Albanians. It means that Albanian couldn't have been spoken during the Iron Age anywhere in the eastern Balkans and that J-L283 is one of the haplogroups which connect all Illyrian peoples.

For now we can just wait to see which other haplogroups connected them all and which differentiated them (if any). Our R1b branches and E-V13 will probably be part of the same equation.

That's the biggest problem that you have and the reason why you try to downplay the significance of the study. Albanian has nothing to do with Thracians and the eastern Balkans. If you want to believe that your E-V13 clade was "Thracian" continue believing whatever you want to and wait for the studies which will show what is true and what isn't , but you can't tie your preferences to an entire ethnic group which has nothing to do with Thrace and Dacia. This is over.

 

[Hawk]

E-V13 IMO had a widespread Pan-Balkanic impact, but moreso wherever Eastern Urnfield impact reached archaeologically in Balkans there you will find E-V13 and these are the group of people who introduced the cremation on a pyre deep in Balkans where we mostly find it in Early Iron Age. For example, the Early Iron Age E-V13 Psenicevo came from ritual pit, those E-V13 were either criminals or religious sacrifices, the common people were cremated.

Hyllested put "Illyric" in quotation marks because he is not really sure if Illyrians were a compact group speaking a coherent and similar group of languages or not. It's simply that he doesn't know and he is not sure of.

As for Messapians, the Daunians were tested not Messapians. We need proper results for Messapi to check what kind of Y-DNA combinations they had. Whether they were similar to Daunians or not.

As for Derite's subclade and mine which is the same, FGC33621 is not so frequent as some E-V13 S2979 subclades, but it can be found in several different locations and based on modern distribution it's hard to pinpoint, but this lineage is very likely Middle-Danubian Urnfield lineage considering some split in Central Europe and others in Balkans. And the center was Carpathian Mountains. I guess FGC33621 will be found among South-West Thracians/Ancient Macedonians, Dardanians because some Macedonian Greeks, South Bulgarians have it. Also, of course Berisha and Sopi among Albanians.

 

[enter_tain]

Here come the EV-13 trolls. So desperate for an identity they come up with fake tales of "EV-13" people.

"No you don't understand. EV-13 are the east Urnfield west Yamnaya south cup holders of the east Channelled Ware Daco-Thracians."