Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[torzio]

We still don't really know who spoke an Illyrian-related language first. We know that the "proper Illyrians" being the East Adriatic J-L283 people we're talked about. But we don't know whether they were the first or only ones who spoke a related language. Actually, that is rather unlikely, that they were "alone".

But this relates to the debate where Proto-Illyrian as a language group was coming from in the first place. I say Bell Beakers, which would embed them within the Bell Beaker/R-L51 networks, but others might say different, like from earlier Yamnaya or whatever. Even if they spoke a related language, there was some ethnocultural barrier obviously, the inhumation vs. cremation rite is telling us that. Urnfield really stopped at the borderline, by and large.

As for Thracians, well, they were closer than some think. Its just we don't have that many because they cremated, for the most part, and the relevant cultures being not sampled yet.

I'm really disappointed that we have zero Basarabi and Babadag samples. I think that a lot of the E-V13 which relates to the Albanians will be found rather in Basarabi-related Western Thracian-Dacian groups, rather than the Eastern Psenichevo-related ones. But we don't know without results, especially from Basarabi.

Basarabi was as huge and very influential phenomenon, important for Eastern Hallstatt as a whole even, with Fr�g as its intermediary centre. They were one of the few Thracian/Channelled Ware groups with some subgroups with regional inhumation preference. Therefore they can be tested, but we have ZERO, ZERO samples from them as of yet.

I do not recall any J-L283 in "illyrian proper"

see below....black = Illyrian proper

the green part is where the majority of J-L283 have been found

 

[enter_tain]

I made a map to show the modern distribution of EV13. Light pink is <= 15%, the purple is ~25%. It's in only Kosova where EV-13 goes >= 35%.

These theories have been reduced to a bunch of Kosovar trolls, who want to create their own "alternate facts", or the usual Albanian haters.

Anyone with eyes can see this haplogroup experienced a resurgence during Ottoman times, not just by northern Albanian clans moving into Kosova (especially Fushe-Kosove), but also Greeks. This Thracian/Dacian horsecrap makes no sense when you bring in Greeks into the play.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

What the actual f am I seeing here?

Most Albanian samples fall south of that line. What is your solution, 50% Slavic admixture + some unknown quantity?

Modern Albanians are right next to Iron Age Albanians, and this guy wants to draw up "Illuminati Confirmed" graphs.

The lines are for simplicity. If you expose the average Illyrian population to Anatolian-levant mixtures, the Illyrian cluster would have to shift in a linear fashion along the brown line. If you expose the average Thracian to early Slavic mixture, the cluster would have to shift along the yellow line.

The assumptions are, the people that made this graph know what they are doing, that they can accurately map autosomal DNA between populations, and represent that distance between populations correctly. If the chart can't be used to draw relationships correctly than the chart is useless, and the people that engage in this have no idea how to accurately map the DNA results.

If we are to trust them, based on spacial distance of the plots, and simplifying factors to Slavic mixture and Anatolian-Levant mixture as the only players post 500 AD, than this how Albanian can get to it's modern cluster if we start out as Illyrians:Albanians received 15% Anatolian-Levant and 12% Slavic mixture.

73%	Illyrian
15%	ME
12%	Slav

If we start as a perfect(50/50) Thracian-Illyrian hybrid population, than this early Albanian population needs 11% Anatolian-Levant and 17% Slavic admixture.

36%	Thracian
36%	Illyrian
11%	ME
17%	Slav

If we start as pure Thracian population, than this early Albanian population needs 7% Anatolian-Levant and 22% Slavic admixture.

71%	Thracian
7%	ME
22%	Slav

So there, if these graphs are any good and can be used, than Albanians need to start as a Thracian heavy people to reach the expected 18-20% Slavic mixture. So either the graph is useless, or Illyrian theory can't work. 60-80% Thracian and 20-40% Illyrian ratio as the starting early Albanian mixture works well. Otherwise Slavic mixture is too low and Anatolian-Levant too high.

 

[enter_tain]

The lines are for simplicity. If you expose the average Illyrian population to Anatolian-levant mixtures, the Illyrian cluster would have to shift in a linear fashion along the brown line. If you expose the average Thracian to early Slavic mixture, the cluster would have to shift along the yellow line.

The assumptions are, the people that made this graph know what they are doing, that they can accurately map autosomal DNA between populations, and represent that distance between populations correctly. If the chart can't be used to draw relationships correctly than the chart is useless, and the people that engage in this have no idea how to accurately map the DNA results.

If we are to trust them, based on spacial distance of the plots, and simplifying factors to Slavic mixture and Anatolian-Levant mixture as the only players post 500 AD, than this how Albanian can get to it's modern cluster if we start out as Illyrians:Albanians received 15% Anatolian-Levant and 12% Slavic mixture.

73%	Illyrian
15%	ME
12%	Slav

If we start as a perfect(50/50) Thracian-Illyrian hybrid population, than this early Albanian population needs 11% Anatolian-Levant and 17% Slavic admixture.

36%	Thracian
36%	Illyrian
11%	ME
17%	Slav

If we start as pure Thracian population, than this early Albanian population needs 7% Anatolian-Levant and 22% Slavic admixture.

71%	Thracian
7%	ME
22%	Slav

So there, if these graphs are any good and can be used, than Albanians need to start as a Thracian heavy people to reach the expected 18-20% Slavic mixture. So either the graph is useless, or Illyrian theory can't work. 60-80% Thracian and 20-40% Illyrian ratio as the starting early Albanian mixture works well. Otherwise Slavic mixture is too low and Anatolian-Levant too high.

There is nothing simple about your pathetic attempts to be an incendiary troll. Slavs are a broad group of people, and we have no idea who the original Slavs were. Albanian Slavic admixture most likely came from Bulgaria when it was under the Bulgarian Empire, not Croatia.

You picking whatever the **** you want for "Aegean" and "Slavic", and then making a "60-80% Thracian admixture" in Byzantine-controlled Illyria is laughable to say the least. Illyrians were in control of Albania when the Geg/Tosk dialect split in 400-500 AD as the Byzantine Emperor Anastasius came from an Illyrian family in Durres.

"Yeah but if you imagine these people in the middle of Roman Illyria are 60-80% Thracian, it works out."

 

[Hawk]

I made a map to show the modern distribution of EV13. Light pink is <= 15%, the purple is ~25%. It's in only Kosova where EV-13 goes >= 35%.

These theories have been reduced to a bunch of Kosovar trolls, who want to create their own "alternate facts", or the usual Albanian haters.

Anyone with eyes can see this haplogroup experienced a resurgence during Ottoman times, not just by northern Albanian clans moving into Kosova (especially Fushe-Kosove), but also Greeks. This Thracian/Dacian horsecrap makes no sense when you bring in Greeks into the play.

Go watch Dragon Ball, Pokemon or Digimon, this is a heavy sport for you, the emotions have taken the best out of you and now you repeat the same nonsense yourself in every single post.

 

[enter_tain]

now you repeat the same nonsense yourself in every single post.

You've written 40,000 essays about EV13 Gava/Channelled Ware garbage and I repeat the same nonsense?

Here you go. I checked the dating of those Early Albanian Medieval samples dated. 700 to 1000 AD. Perfectly modelled as Illyrian + East Med, vastly far away from Thracians.

Go cry in your sleep now about EV13 being historically irrelevant until a bunch of Berishas decided to have 17 kids. It'll have no major relevance anywhere historically.

 

[Hawk]

You've written 40,000 essays about EV13 Gava/Channelled Ware garbage and I repeat the same nonsense?

Here you go. I checked the dating of those Early Albanian Medieval samples dated. 700 to 1000 AD. Perfectly modelled as Illyrian + East Med, vastly far away from Thracians.

Go cry in your sleep now about EV13 being historically irrelevant until a bunch of Berishas decided to have 17 kids. It'll have no major relevance anywhere historically.

Daco-Thracians (E-V13) were a bigger population than Illyrians, and certainly as a whole far more powerful. (since you brought relevance versus irrelevance to the table).

To me you seem to be the kind of extreme hater, jealous who doesn't even want to admit the white color is white, but insists is black. Go get an ice coffee and calm down yourself.

 

[enter_tain]

Daco-Thracians (E-V13) were a bigger population than Illyrians, and certainly as a whole far more powerful.

To me you seem to be the kind of extreme hater, jealous who doesn't even want to admit the white color is white, but insists is black. Go get an ice coffee and calm down yourself.

I'm a hater because EV13 is nowhere to be found in Albania or Greece up until Ottoman times? These are the powerful Daco-Thracians.

You Kosovars have a clear identity crisis. Go sort it out before talking shit about Albanian history. It's becoming embarassing.

 

[Hawk]

I'm a hater because EV13 is nowhere to be found in Albania or Greece up until Ottoman times? These are the powerful Daco-Thracians.

You Kosovars have a clear identity crisis. Go sort it out before talking shit about Albanian history. It's becoming embarassing.

You act like this because your ego got hurt. Certainly, you keep barking from the screen because couple of good slapping in your face will bring you to the right place. How can you decide from 3 samples, 2 of them which seem to be Slavic in origin lol.

You are a Kosovar/Gash by origin, stop lying you are from Albania. Your other sock-puppet accounts like 1337, Thraco-Illyrian, Dardapara and some dozens are yours.

 

[eupator]

I don't understand what the argument is about and why people are angry so much in relation to the findings on Thracian E-V13, honest question.

 

[Johane Derite]

Kosovo area, especially Rrafshi i Dukagjinit / Western Kosovo (where there lived historically an Albanian population and which is actually the area that gained an Albanian majority first during the Ottoman period) was without a doubt Glasinac-Mati culture and similar to the population in North-Eastern Albania just some KM away. Names can come and go. Doesn't prove the Dardani were some Thracian tribe.

Dardania in Anatolia could be the result of Balkan migration there. Dardapara was a Thracian area in Dardania https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardapara , and it could be a Paleo-Balkan word or common Thracian-Illyrian word. suffix 'Para' is not used in Illyrian placenames like it is in Thracian. Or it could be Thracian influence. Western Dardania totally lacks these placenames in suffix 'Para' , they are mainly found at the Dacian/Thracian border AFAIK.

This problem is multifaceted.

Firstly, channeled ware apears in west Kosova and east kosova, as well as in Mat. So already, the "Drin" and "Mat" region of the Glasinac-Mat area becomes a bit mixed after the Iron age transition, and we are trying to
pinpoint which group gave which language/names.

Secondly, there is no Glasinac culture showing up in Troy/Anatolia, so we have to explain how the Dard- name was taken to Anatolia.

Thirdly, it is not being argued by me that Dardanian is a Thracian language, I am exploring the possibility that Dardanian is neither Illyrian nor Thracian, but a Balkan IE language like Paeonian, Brygian, Macedonian, etc.

Papazoglu and others have explored this possibility before me.

Fourthly, this entire saga started because linguists like Matzinger, Shumacher, and so on and so on, argue for an admigration of proto-Albanians into the regions of the Albanoi in the post-Roman era.

They argue that the toponyms Nish and Shtip show proto-Albanian mediation into Slavic and so this region is a minimal starting point for seeking out proto-Albanian communities, since Illyrian supporters also accept Nish & Shtip, it is a fair common ground.

Now, the region around Shtip and Nish is the easternmost region of Dardania, on the borders with Macedonia and Thrace. So again, if the proto-Albanians come from these "Dardanians", then maybe Rrafshi i Dukagjinit is not as relevant as Brnjica, Channelled Ware, and Dented Ware.

Here is the map, "kanellure" simply means "channelled" in French:

Here is a map of channelled ware in the eastern side of Dardanian territory, (the blue stars on the left map):

 

[mount123]

I don't understand what the argument is about and why people are angry so much in relation to the findings on Thracian E-V13, honest question.

Good question. Neither do I or many others understand it. These posters have essentially a problem with it because they want an ancient group of people to have had all existing haplogroups (some even want the Slavic ones ) present in modern day Albanians. On top of that they want an autosomal and parental continuity for Albanians stemming from one ancient people.

The aDNA disagrees since we can trace our ancestry to different groups of people. Nonetheless I think the Central/Southern Balkans will surely be the place where all of these groups fused into a multiethnic society. There are different groups of ancient people that make up the equation of forming Albanians that's for sure especially when you have two extrema as Illyrians and Thracians and not forgetting all those in the Central/Southern Balkans e. g. Paeonians etc.

 

[enter_tain]

You act like this because your ego got hurt. Certainly, you keep barking from the screen because couple of good slapping in your face will bring you to the right place. How can you decide from 3 samples, 2 of them which seem to be Slavic in origin lol.

You are a Kosovar/Gash by origin, stop lying you are from Albania. Your other sock-puppet accounts like 1337, Thraco-Illyrian, Dardapara and some dozens are yours.

Did you actually read the paper? Look how close Medieval Albos are to modern Albos/Iron Age Illyrians. Look how far Thracians are. Just add some Roman Imperial to those samples and you move them south east.

This is 700 to 1000 AD in case you can't read. Those are your "Thracians".

 

[enter_tain]

On top of that they want an autosomal and parental continuity for Albanians stemming from one ancient people.

Yes it's some "posters" that can read. We have

(1) Middle/Late Bronze Age

(2) Iron Age

(3) Antiquity

(4) Medieval

(5) Post-Medieval

(6) Modern

and there's no major shifts in DNA. The paper outright told you from the Middle Bronze Age there's been little autosomal change in Albanians.

You and your horde of deranged detractors

"They're 20% Slavic, 20% East Med, 50% Thracian, 10% Illyrian", but somehow there's almost no change in all those periods from MBA to Antiquity to Early Medieval to Post Medieval.

 

[Hawk]

The E-V13 were present in La Tene Celts, Pannonians (we already have some samples from them and one is E-V13), Thracians heavily and very likely the Dardanians, the E-V13 in Naissus isn't exactly like the Kapitan Andreevo E-V13 samples, in fact he looks close to HRV_IA samples. They were male clans and were taking women wherever they settled down.

As for Mycenae, we all agreed E-V13 will not be there, it's rather after the Late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age turbulences we expect to find. 1 Ancient Macedonian site has already 1 E-V13, 2 E-V13 brothers appeared in Ancient Greek Byzantine city of Nicaea.

 

[enter_tain]

From G25

I messed up that Iron Age label a bit with MKD, but close enough

 

[Olti27]

With the proofs at hand, the only way we can prove that the ethnogenesys of albanians is Thracian is for Illyrians to have never existed!

 

[Johane Derite]

The only dissonance is from you, I'm only trying to share and update the discourse with what the top academics in these fields are saying, and you are spazzing out. I've posted for years all the possible pro-Illyrian arguments that exist, and as we get close to solving it, and as I have learnt more along the way, I am only trying to push it further forward.

"The Albanian case that the Komani-Kruja cemeteries represent a continuity of Illyrians rests on several arguments, notably the Illyrian character of the ornaments and the shapes of some grave-goods, hemispherical buttons, biconical beads, bracelets, the bronze hanging-lringes recalling lllyrian ornaments from the Mat valley.

These comparisons are certainly valid, but the Albanian case is weakened by a highly improbable reconstruction of lllyrian history in this period.

This makes theIllyrians recover their lost independence during the collapse ofthe later Roman Empire and reassert their ethnic identity through liberation from Greco-Roman dominance in material culture.

This view regards the new fortifications in the area as measures against the independent Illyrians.

Out of this population came the Arberi of the tenth and eleventh centuries, represented by an early tumulus culture in southern Albania.

The weakness of these arguments for an area where historical sources are non-existent seems obvious.

There can surely be nodoubt that the Komani-Kruja cemeteries indicate the survival of a non-Slav population between the sixth and ninth centuries, and their most likely identification seems to be with a Romanized population of lllyrian origin driven out by Slav settlementsfurther north, the 'Romanoi" mentioned by Constantine Porphyrogenitus (c32).

This interpretation is supported by the concentration of Latin place-names around the Lake ofShkoder, in the Drin and Fan valleys and along the road from Lissus to Ulpiana in Kosovo, with some in the Black Drin and Mat valleys, a distribution limited on the south by the line of the Via Egnatia."

So, there was a Latinised Illyrian population living around the Lake of Shkoder, Drin and Fan valleys, and from Lezhe to Ulpiana, as well as some in Mat and Black Drin. These people left placenames like "Valbona" all the way up in the Albanian mountains (Beautiful valley in Latin).

What did the Proto-Albanian shepherds do with these Romanised Illyrians? Did they kill them, or integrate them linguistically as the Latins had before them? I don't know yet. If they assimilated them, we should expect higher percentages of this ancestry in those areas (Gegë) that were mentioned.


Lets check the percentages from Rrenjet that were posted the other day.

Taken with a grain of salt but nonetheless if we look at the Slavic haplogroups (I2a-Y3120 + R1a-M417) the total percentage comes to:

13.4%

This is quite close to J2b-l283 which shows up here as 15.3%

Should we then conclude that the Albanian language descends from these Slavic haplogroups?

If higher altitude shepherding proto-Albanians slowly assimilated the Dalmatian speaking Romanoi of the Komani-Kruja culture, then how would we test this hypothesis?

What will this look like in autosomal results and haplo results before the proto-Albanians absorbed the latinised illyrians and after?

 

[broder]

Autosomal results will be almost useless if we are talking about people moving from regions like Dardania or Paeonia west. For starters we need to excavate and test proper early Komani - Kruja remains. Not some Gypsies from Barc or medieval Slavic burials because they won’t get us anywhere.

 

[Hawk]

Some of the E-V13 subclades among Albanians might have been mediated through Pannonians, let's not forget that the more we approach Pannonians the more E-V13 start to pop out. It doesn't have to mean they were the more dominant.

We already have one E-V13 sample from La Tene Celts, but the archaeological site is classified by Hungarian archaeologists as Pannonian-Illyrian. Now, i cannot explain what happened after Late Bronze Age to these people, were the Encrusted Pottery People annihilated? I don't know. They were quite conservative cremating groups, perhaps, some samples right after Roman conquest and Christianity appears when inhumation gets adopted might shed light.

As far as the autosomal of Kapitan Andreevo and some Thracians, they seem to be quite EEF, that's quite a paradox, but who knows, some Carpathian/Transylvanian mountain groups might have been quite isolated and living in high altitude unmixed. (The other option connecting the Balkan-Carpathian Complex is Vatin Culture. Because this culture affected both in the North and South of it).

Look at this Thracian horsemen depiction from burials: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...rzug-Scythians?p=638561&viewfull=1#post638561

They seem to look quite EEF, especially the 2nd dude. One R1a-Z93 sample was found among them, i guess he might be what we call the Pre-Proto Thracian (and i might as well hint that the Pre-Proto-Thracians might have been distant cousins of Indo-Iranians), the Noua-Sabatinovska group who were equestrian and met the tough shepherds of Transylvanian mountains and admixed with them. An EEF-rich group with EEF Y-DNA being renowned as horse-lovers/tamers of horses, that's your paradox of history there.

But then you also have a look like Odrysian King Seuthes, he looks like he was some sort of Dinaric-Med.