Nope, none of it is biased selection. It is also broken into different regional averages of people who form their own clusters which is far more reliable than adding a bunch of people into one average. What is weird is that G25 Davidski average.
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Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]
- Thread starter Johane Derite
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Nope, none of it is biased selection. It is also broken into different regional averages of people who form their own clusters which is far more reliable than adding a bunch of people into one average. What is weird is that G25 Davidski average.
Since when is central Balkans different from western balkans ? Samples from Macedonia and Nish overlap with samples from Albania etc. Stop making up clusters and people like those low IQ autists on TheApricity do. Stick to the facts, Illyrians inhabited also inland Balkans as far as Nish and Shkup, it is really simple, stop creating your own pseudo intellectual history. Nobody gives a rats ass if they are Illyrian or not anyway since nothing suggests V13 was proto-Albanian at this point, it is really simple.
One of them is almost identical with an Albanian Cinamak sample = "Slightly inclined"You goofs. Even Aspar is coping hard.
These are clear Messapics. On G25 they plot identical to Daunians/Messapics who are mostly Illyrian + some Italian.
And this is also a sampling problem because a lot of Messapians come from Devoll. We have very little sampling from southern Albania.
Some of these E-V13 samples looks to me like they cluster close to some Northern Albanians. I ran them on G25 and they don't look mixed at all but have typical Illyrian profiles
[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_2:I10950
Distance: 2.6945% / 0.02694510[/TH]
[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]61.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Barcin_N[/TD]
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[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]31.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Yamnaya_RUS_Samara[/TD]
[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]
[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]6.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]WHG[/TD]
[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]
[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]0.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Han[/TD]
[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_2:I10946
Distance: 4.1002% / 0.04100170[/TH]
[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]60.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Barcin_N[/TD]
[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]
[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]32.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Yamnaya_RUS_Samara[/TD]
[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]
[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]6.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]WHG[/TD]
[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]
[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]0.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]BRA_LapaDoSanto_9600BP[/TD]
[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_2:I10950
Distance: 2.6945% / 0.02694510[/TH]
[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]61.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Barcin_N[/TD]
[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]
[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]31.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Yamnaya_RUS_Samara[/TD]
[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]
[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]6.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]WHG[/TD]
[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]
[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]0.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Han[/TD]
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They're identical to Messapians of Illyrian origin. The Messapians allied with the Greeks to attacks Syracuse. I made a note that historians usually give this between 415 BC to 413 BC, not 480 BC. So someone has to be off here by a few decades.
During the Second Peloponnesian War between Athens and Sparta, the Mesapii were allies of Athens. They provided archers for Athens' massive expeditionary force sent to attack Syracuse in Sicily (415–13 BC). The expedition was a disaster and the entire force was destroyed.
I was watching an Albanian documentary on Messapians, and the Italian archeologists they interviewed said a lot of these were linked to a region in the southern Albanian city of Devoll. They called this "Devoll Ware" or "Devoll Valley".
Maybe there was a higher concentration of E-V13 in the south, given that there was a Macedonian E-V13 sample.
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There's a 2007 paper on the Greek colonisation of Italy, but mostly focuses on Tarento. They do mention this though
"There is also a variety of imports among thepottery finds. To the first phase of occupationbelong fragments of Corinthian type A amphorae, and even a piece of ‘Devoll ware’ (fig. 47c) thatwas imported from what is now Albania. Otherimports originate from eastern Greece" - Greek colonists and indigenous populations at L'Amastuola, southern Italy (2007; with G.J. Burgers)
"There is also a variety of imports among thepottery finds. To the first phase of occupationbelong fragments of Corinthian type A amphorae, and even a piece of ‘Devoll ware’ (fig. 47c) thatwas imported from what is now Albania. Otherimports originate from eastern Greece" - Greek colonists and indigenous populations at L'Amastuola, southern Italy (2007; with G.J. Burgers)
Byzantine Albania was Latinized so I would think that E-V13 was brought by proto-Albanians as it is not there.
Byzantine Albania was most certainly never entirely Latinized nor is there any evidence for it, there are a bunch of placenames / toponyms there also that clearly derive from Albanian as does the Illyrian name Albanoi / Abroi. Albanian also shows strong Latin influence so it wouldn't contradict such claims either way. Dardania was also largely Latinized as was many parts of the Western and Central Balkans which were under Roman occupation for the longest period. Many Thracians in Bulgaria were Hellenized etc. So what is your point ? And no E-V13 most definitely was not brought by any kind of proto-Albanian population, this is like saying E-V13 was brought in Greece by proto-Greeks or E-V13 in Croatia by proto-Croats since it was not there. Nothing suggests some pure E-V13 was part of any kind of proto population or R1b+EV13 for that matter. It is nothing but a fringe theory that has no evidence.
Who cares if it is there or not, nothing at this point suggests it was part of proto-Albanians. Just some Y-DNA that seemed to of spread out later and this happened in every Balkan population but some how claim now proto-Albanians carried it .....
Notice his ''arguments'' about Albania being Latinized or whatever when Latiniziation happened all across the Western/Central Balkans and explains why Albanian has exactly such strong Latin vocabulary. That isn't sufficient argumenet to argue someone must of come from somewhere else. Especially not when many of the pre-Slavic toponyms in Albania clearly derive from Albanian. If we apply this dudes logic, I guess proto-Albanians must of come from Mars.
I am not sure why you people simply cannot learn to accept the truth.
Thracian/Dacian language does not match Albanian , this is something that has already been demonstrated by countless people here and other forums I have seen. The OP tried to make an argument against this but he totally failed. This pretty much only leaves Illyrian as a possible candidate.
''In the Middle Ages, the names Albanoi and Arbanitai/Albanitai referred to medieval Albanians as an ethnic group. The equivalent terms in Latin are Albanenses/Arbanenses, in Slavic Arbanasi and later in Turkish Arnaut. These names reflect the Albanian ethnic endonym Arbëreshë/Arbëneshë, which itself derives from the Albanoi. In the archaeological record, the Albanoi are mentioned on a funeral inscription in Stobi and Albanopolis is mentioned on another funeral inscription near Scupi. Another ethnonym, Arbaios found in Phoenice is likely linked to them.''
1. E-V13 was part of proto-Albanians as minor branch and later became more widespread
2. E-V13 was not part of proto-Albanians but was picked up later.
You can of course pick which one you like the most.
Western Dardania was mostly Illyrian. Thracian names mainly dominated the Eastern parts.
Thracian/Dacian language does not match Albanian , this is something that has already been demonstrated by countless people here and other forums I have seen. The OP tried to make an argument against this but he totally failed. This pretty much only leaves Illyrian as a possible candidate.
''In the Middle Ages, the names Albanoi and Arbanitai/Albanitai referred to medieval Albanians as an ethnic group. The equivalent terms in Latin are Albanenses/Arbanenses, in Slavic Arbanasi and later in Turkish Arnaut. These names reflect the Albanian ethnic endonym Arbëreshë/Arbëneshë, which itself derives from the Albanoi. In the archaeological record, the Albanoi are mentioned on a funeral inscription in Stobi and Albanopolis is mentioned on another funeral inscription near Scupi. Another ethnonym, Arbaios found in Phoenice is likely linked to them.''
1. E-V13 was part of proto-Albanians as minor branch and later became more widespread
2. E-V13 was not part of proto-Albanians but was picked up later.
You can of course pick which one you like the most.
Western Dardania was mostly Illyrian. Thracian names mainly dominated the Eastern parts.
PaleoRevenge
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A tablet from Skopkje/Shkupi refers to some inhabitants from Albanapolis, and they had Thracian names. This is from the Roman imperial period. There should be some E-V13 that could have established themselves, they are not expected to be the majority.
The real tell-tale is the assimilated Albanian tribes in Montenegro and Herzegovina. These are pastoral communities that established themselves in the Middle Ages. Mataruga, Mataguzi, Bytadosi, Palbardhi, Rogami, Bushati, Bukmiri, Burmazi, etc... all these brotherhoods on the Serbian project have tested for either E-V13 or R1b-Z2103. There's no J2b-L283 in any of them. In fact it is so bad that J2b-L283 is only 2% among Montenegrin men. These odds and patterns are impossible if J2b-L283 was part of the Albanian package from the beginning. All points to J2b-L283 being a sedentary population in northern Albania, and the best candidate for J2b-L283 is the Kruja-Komani culture.
We see the exact same pattern for the southern vector of Albanian migrations. The Arberesh unique Albanian component is solely linked to E-V13 and R1b-Z2103, J2b-L283 is practically non-existent. One has to pervert the facts, the data and ignore the patterns to make a Illyrian model work.
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For the last time, we have Thracian inscriptions. They have nothing to do with Albanian. We have Messapic inscriptions, and they are clearly linked.
Example of Thracian inscriptions
"Rolisteneas Nerenea tiltean esko Arazea domean Tilezupta mie erazilta"
Messapic inscriptions clearly show a relation to Albanian, even in basic words like son/daughter
Biri -> Bili
Bija -> Bilia
There are no modern mainstream academics who've made an actual case out of Thracian -> Albanian.
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Seriously, what is going on in this guy's brain?
We have an Illyric dialect like Messapic linked to Albanian. Thracian is not related linguistically.
We have PCA plots of Illyrians that plot right next to Albanians. Thracians clearly plot far away.
Please stfu with this "E-V13" bullshit as it's quite clear this Y-DNA experienced a Roman-era spread. It's not an Albanian-only phenomenon. Plenty of countries have lots of E-V13 and their language has nothing to do with "Thracian".
Not even ******* Bulgarians have a developed Thracian lexicon, let alone Albanians.
We have an Illyric dialect like Messapic linked to Albanian. Thracian is not related linguistically.
We have PCA plots of Illyrians that plot right next to Albanians. Thracians clearly plot far away.
Please stfu with this "E-V13" bullshit as it's quite clear this Y-DNA experienced a Roman-era spread. It's not an Albanian-only phenomenon. Plenty of countries have lots of E-V13 and their language has nothing to do with "Thracian".
Not even ******* Bulgarians have a developed Thracian lexicon, let alone Albanians.
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Mate, there was 0 E-V13 in either Medieval or Post-Medieval Albania. Stop making up dumb theories every chance you get. You don't even have enough of a sample size to represent modern Albanians, let alone ancient ones.
Most haplogroups had a primary vector with which they spread, an ethnolinguistic group with which they could expand. For E-V13, its at least 90 % plus Thracians, Daco-Thracians initially in the LBA-EIA.
Later on, they mixed into many different people, spreading with the LBA Urnfield and EIA Thracian and Eastern Hallstatt groups. That's just a fact which is now beyond doubt. The question is rather where those Thracian core had its ethnogenesis exactly (Upper Tisza-K?r?s vs. Moldavia-Eastern Romania-Dobrugea vs. Eastern Serbia vs. Lower Danube-Thrace etc.).
The correlation is minimum as strong as the one of J-L283 with Illyrians, if not stronger and stricter.
But then again, that's the LBA-EIA transition, soon afterwards, it was pretty spread out, into other ethnocultural formations outside of the Thracian sphere in its narrower sense.
The Roman era spread, if true, will be seen primarily in Albanians, whereas other people were E-V13 rich before. So either E-V13 was in the Proto-Albanian sphere much earlier (LBA? EIA-MIA?) or came later. But E-V13 as a whole was big already in the LBA, the data is absolutely clear about it. There was not even any sort of big expansion in the Roman era, even on the contrary, the E-V13 modern data shows a contraction or at least stagnation in that period.
Interestingly a lot of the Albanian E-V13 lineages show a Pannonian-Danubian connection, which however has little phylogenetic history and overlaps to work with. So they could have come from the Pannnonian-Danubian sphere at any point in time between about 1.000 BC and 600 AD. That's really up to new data points, to decide that. And it might not be the same date for every subclade, because some might have been in the vicinity of Albania by 1000 BC and others came as late as in the Slavic era.
Nope, Albanoi were mentioned as an Illyrian tribe in Northern and Central Albania where they were mentioned as 'Abroi' 'Arboi' also etc. and related to the Taulantii tribe, Enchelei etc, nothing suggests this tribe was Thracian and I am pretty convinced proto-Albanians came from this tribe in that similar area we also have two of the most common Albanian Y-DNA. Inscriptions in Skopje mainly shows part of this tribe moved into Dardania , The Inscription mentions a 'Delus Mucati' etc
'Posis Mestylu, son of Flavia Delus, daughter of Mucat, who comes from Albanopolis'
Some dude now pulled a theory out of his ass that these must all be Thracian names
They made Albanoi a Thracian tribe now E-V13 has not been found in Thracians as much as J2b2 in Illyrians , among those Thracians were found a bunch of other Y-DNA and there are even Thracian samples found years ago that demonstrate this from the Bronze Age. Mostly Iron Age Thracian samples are more Southern but there is a clear continuity in Y-DNA. E-V13 is also a Y-DNA that is more widespread compared to J2b2, really nothing that makes E-V13 specifically Thracian and one could find J2b2 outside Illyrian sphere too.
Iron Age Thracians are more Eastern and Southern compared to Bronze Age samples from Bulgaria. Sure that E-V13 was common among Thracians so far but that Thracians are the main source of it I highly doubt but of course I am willing to change my opinion. To me it simply seems E-V13 is a general Y-DNA that hit the boom, it happened earlier among Thracians and then later among the rest of Europe and Balkans.
J2b2 hit a bottle neck effect already during Cetina this does not mean that J2b2 did not exist outside Illyrian sphere , the correlation with J2b2 and Illyrian however I believe is stronger than E-V13 and Thracian. Let's not forget none of these Y-DNA ever came from the steppes most likely so Steppe people were R1b
J2b2 hit a bottle neck effect already during Cetina this does not mean that J2b2 did not exist outside Illyrian sphere , the correlation with J2b2 and Illyrian however I believe is stronger than E-V13 and Thracian. Let's not forget none of these Y-DNA ever came from the steppes most likely so Steppe people were R1b
That's a very good point too.