• Don't want to see ads? Install an adblocker like uBlock Origin or use a Europe-based privacy-friendly browser like Vivaldi or Mullvad.

To burn or not to burn: LBA/EIA Balkan case

Status
Not open for further replies.
It is indeed a nice thread. You'll find a good amount of valuable posts here with links to scientific papers and the normal chitchat about upcoming papers with leaks and personal bets. Here and there you will see a certain type of people posting here that clearly have absolutely no foreknowledge in neither prehistoric Balkan archeology nor population genetics. Some cheeky remarks just make it a bit more embarrassing for them.
Αnd you will definitely see a certain type of People spreading nationalistic driven hilarious nonsense about imaginary empires of people that left nothing behind.
But as you perfectly say that certain type of people have absolutely zero foreknowledge about prehistoric Balkan archeology or genetics.
 
Last edited:
Αnd you will definitely see a certain type of People spreading nationalistic driven utter nonsense about imaginary empires of people almost lost in Human memory


Portraying Illyrians as an empire is inconsequential imo, doesn't really hurt anyone. And they were maritime nation that could project itself much further. Would love to read more about their decline, I know Rome was harsh towards subjected subjects coupled with Justinianic plague, Germanic, Slavic invasions would want to know what caused most of their decline in Croatia, Bosnia, same with the rest of pre-Slavic population.
 
the Illyrians where finished by 10AD after the Great Illyrian revolt ...........they basically did not exist as a true identity from this time ..............besides, genetically the illyians are closest to Italians and nobody else...........
and let us not bring up any slavic or ostrogoths union with these Illyrians
 
Cetina_Culture_Expansion_Map.png

Cetina is pre illyrians, how many years did this empire last?
 
It is indeed a nice thread. You'll find a good amount of valuable posts here with links to scientific papers and the normal chitchat about upcoming papers with leaks and personal bets. Here and there you will see a certain type of people posting here that clearly have absolutely no foreknowledge in neither prehistoric Balkan archeology nor population genetics. Some cheeky remarks just make it a bit more embarrassing for them.

Archaeogenetics is developing field, you guys here are doing great job don't get discouraged.
Yeah there is a sort of a limbo due to ongoing papers and people cheering on their own theories, but probably in less than a decade we will get the whole truth.

I mean 5 years ago lots people disputed I2-Din being slavic haplogroup.
 
Portraying Illyrians as an empire is inconsequential imo, doesn't really hurt anyone. And they were maritime nation that could project itself much further. Would love to read more about their decline, I know Rome was harsh towards subjected subjects coupled with Justinianic plague, Germanic, Slavic invasions would want to know what caused most of their decline in Croatia, Bosnia, same with the rest of pre-Slavic population.
Imaginary stuff shouldn't hurt anyone sane enough
 
Archaeogenetics is developing field, you guys here are doing great job don't get discouraged.
Yeah there is a sort of a limbo due to ongoing papers and people cheering on their own theories, but probably in less than a decade we will get the whole truth.

I mean 5 years ago lots people disputed I2-Din being slavic haplogroup.
I don't think most reasonable and knowledgeable people here pay that much attention to some snarky remarks, it's a bit annoying when the thread gets flooded with them but that's it.

*I-Y3120 is the correct nomenclature and actually it was quite obvious early on due to its phylogeny and further attestation. I do recall having seen some older Slavic autochthonist theories though that got published in 2nd/3d class journals. Slavic autochonist theories usually only persist in some fringes of anthrofora and above all on social media plattforms such as Twitter/X, Instagram and Facebook.
 
The upcoming samples, 1 from Romania and 5 from Hungary are interesting from historical background. Dacians were conquered by the Romans and Rome followed up with a hard fought campaign to bring the Sarmatians in Hungary under Roman rule and link up the Dacian province directly with Pannonia. This campaign failed but it must have brought the free Dacians in common cause with Sarmatians, and among the 5 new E-V13 samples in Hungary, all of them are likely to be of Dacian stock, and it's even possible one or two would be free of Sarmatian admixture.
Are you basically saying that Dacians were the proto-Albanians?
 
I don't think most reasonable and knowledgeable people here pay that much attention to some snarky remarks, it's a bit annoying when the thread gets flooded with them but that's it.

*I-Y3120 is the correct nomenclature and actually it was quite obvious early on due to its phylogeny and further attestation. I do recall having seen some older Slavic autochthonist theories though that got published in 2nd/3d class journals. Slavic autochonist theories usually only persist in some fringes of anthrofora and above all on social media plattforms such as Twitter/X, Instagram and Facebook.

What do you think of cts10228? - https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228/
 
Are you basically saying that Dacians were the proto-Albanians?

We can hope, Dacians were more difficult for Romans to conquer than illyrians. But anyway if Dacians didn't have r-z2103 they cannot be proto albanians
 
We can hope, Dacians were more difficult for Romans to conquer than illyrians. But anyway if Dacians didn't have r-z2103 they cannot be proto albanians

I still think that Dardanians are the best candidate for ancestral Albanians. They are an ideal fit for E-V13 also, because Albanians have old Balkan branches and new E-Z5018-Z5017, I rather associate with Dacians-North Thracians.

The first the Dardanians acquired when conquering local Thracian tribes to their East, expanding their territory, but quite obviously while mixing with these Thracians. The second in the Roman period, when the tribal borderlines became blurred and many people were resettled or fled to the South.
In this blurred boundaries situation the Proto-Vlachs acquired Pre-Albanian lineages and vice versa too, in my opinion.

However, any position South of the Dardanians is in my opinion untenable.
 
I still think that Dardanians are the best candidate for ancestral Albanians. They are an ideal fit for E-V13 also, because Albanians have old Balkan branches and new E-Z5018-Z5017, I rather associate with Dacians-North Thracians.

The first the Dardanians acquired when conquering local Thracian tribes to their East, expanding their territory, but quite obviously while mixing with these Thracians. The second in the Roman period, when the tribal borderlines became blurred and many people were resettled or fled to the South.
In this blurred boundaries situation the Proto-Vlachs acquired Pre-Albanian lineages and vice versa too, in my opinion.

However, any position South of the Dardanians is in my opinion untenable.

Dardanians are usually labelled as illyrians so they would have been heavy on j2b l283, not as much as Dalmatians but probably 50%+

I think proto albanians were more south and were heavy on r1b z2103, I would say 30%+
 
the Illyrians where finished by 10AD after the Great Illyrian revolt ...........they basically did not exist as a true identity from this time ..............besides, genetically the illyians are closest to Italians and nobody else...........
and let us not bring up any slavic or ostrogoths union with these Illyrians

How much do Italians share the paternal ancestry with Illyrians?

The whole thing is completely out of context, because broken JavaScript code from Dodecad and Vahaduo which form extremely basic statistical models cannot be taken as the only parameter on defining ancestry. Where is IBD sharing, Y-DNA, archaeological formations, deep autosomal models etc, etc, etc...

The reality is more complex. I would say Albanians are way more Illyrian than Italians, if you want to put it like that. And i would add that Pre-Communist Albanian scholars were right, Albanians are mainly Thraco-Illyrian population.
 
Last edited:
I still think that Dardanians are the best candidate for ancestral Albanians. They are an ideal fit for E-V13 also, because Albanians have old Balkan branches and new E-Z5018-Z5017, I rather associate with Dacians-North Thracians.

The first the Dardanians acquired when conquering local Thracian tribes to their East, expanding their territory, but quite obviously while mixing with these Thracians. The second in the Roman period, when the tribal borderlines became blurred and many people were resettled or fled to the South.
In this blurred boundaries situation the Proto-Vlachs acquired Pre-Albanian lineages and vice versa too, in my opinion.

However, any position South of the Dardanians is in my opinion untenable.

Look at the very own name of Dardanians, they were considered as Illyrian in antuiquity but the name itself Dardanian is attested more among Thracians like placenames Dardapara, like Dacian soldier Diourdanos like a similar variant to Dardanos, another Dacian name Dardiolai. Dardanian king Monunious name is attested nowhere else among Illyrians, it's attested as a personal name of an Odrysian prince.

Now, we shall see how things wrap each other(maybe they were Illyrian, or non-Illyrian/non-Thracian or a mix of them all), but i am surprised how you always dodge and cherry-pick archaeological facts. Like the very own fact that Yugoslav archaeologist herself Draga Garasanin considered that the Mediana Culture where latter Dardanians thrived had very close ties to Psenicevo people.
 
Are you basically saying that Dacians were the proto-Albanians?
You sound like that Olti guy. What I wrote is straight forward. The E-V13 in Sarmatian sites will likely be Dacian. Do you speak English or are you using google translator?
 
You sound like that Olti guy. What I wrote is straight forward. The E-V13 in Sarmatian sites will likely be Dacian. Do you speak English or are you using google translator?

I think that Brumi got into the AI-stuff (crypto-bro fashion), and is using ChatGPT to clone bot accounts to support his theories lol.
 
Look at the very own name of Dardanians, they were considered as Illyrian in antuiquity but the name itself Dardanian is attested more among Thracians like placenames Dardapara, like Dacian soldier Diourdanos like a similar variant to Dardanos, another Dacian name Dardiolai. Dardanian king Monunious name is attested nowhere else among Illyrians, it's attested as a personal name of an Odrysian prince.

Now, we shall see how things wrap each other(maybe they were Illyrian, or non-Illyrian/non-Thracian or a mix of them all), but i am surprised how you always dodge and cherry-pick archaeological facts. Like the very own fact that Yugoslav archaeologist herself Draga Garasanin considered that the Mediana Culture where latter Dardanians thrived had very close ties to Psenicevo people.

I don't even have a disagreement with you on most issues. Also, I often wrote (just search for it) about:
- Stamped Pottery horizon
- Southern kantharoi zone
- Psenichevo-Basarabi

It is clear to me that after the unified Channelled Ware horizon was broken up, there were 3 block (Northern Late Gáva, Mezocsat-Gáva and Stamped Pottery).

Psenichevo and Basarabi are in the Southern block, but clearly they won't be the same, because the Psenichevo group had much closer ties to the Aegean-Anatolian sphere, even relatives over the Bosphorus, from which I think a lot moved-married back.

Look at the debate about Belegis II-Gáva: There is no author which denies the close relationship with Gáva, but how the relationship being interpreted, like how close Gáva-Holigrady and Belegis II-Gáva really were, is an ongoing debate.
Same for Knobbed Ware: Closer to Belegis or Gáva-Holigrady? Babadag - how do they fit in between Gáva-related and Noua-Coslogeni?

That's one of the big reasons I'm going for ancient DNA: I think that's the only way to really solve those issues. Archaeological interpreations and opinions are, while highly important to consider, not as reliable as ancient DNA in combination with archaeological results.

Close ties? Basarabi had close ties to Psenichevo too, even to Frög in Austria. They formed a network after the Channelled Ware expansion - its only because of the Cimmerians that the North wasn't fully integrated any more, because they formed like a wedge. Comparable to what Hungarians did to the Slavs: West-East Slavs vs. South Slavs would look, probably, quite different without Hungarians and Vlachs-Romanians obviously. The wedge caused a separation which would have been much less pronounced otherwise.

Same with the various steppe people which invaded the Carpathian basin after Channelled Ware.
 
I think that Brumi got into the AI-stuff (crypto-bro fashion), and is using ChatGPT to clone bot accounts to support his theories lol.
Well speaking about brumi. On the Genarchvist forum right now he is adamantly saying dacians can't have e v 13
 
How much do Italians share the paternal ancestry with Illyrians?

The whole thing is completely out of context, because broken JavaScript code from Dodecad and Vahaduo which form extremely basic statistical models cannot be taken as the only parameter on defining ancestry. Where is IBD sharing, Y-DNA, archaeological formations, deep autosomal models etc, etc, etc...

The reality is more complex. I would say Albanians are way more Illyrian than Italians, if you want to put it like that. And i would add that Pre-Communist Albanian scholars were right, Albanians are mainly Thraco-Illyrian population.
Its about 40 % plus ..................in many different testing sites.

Albanians have less than 10% illyrian

I hope you are not one of these people that exclude Liburnians, Japodes , Catuli and other northern Balkan people as Illyrian
 
Its about 40 % plus ..................in many different testing sites.

Albanians have less than 10% illyrian

I hope you are not one of these people that exclude Liburnians, Japodes , Catuli and other northern Balkan people as Illyrian

Which parts of Italy have 40%+ j2b l283?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top