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MBA to Classical/Early Roman era Mainland Greeks PCA

Any ideas why the Roman Mainland Greece samples score less Ancient Greek than the West Anatolian Byzantium samples?

image.png


Model:

Code: 
Ancient_Greek:Amm_Epi_LBA_1,0.122929,0.1635,0.013199,-0.047804,0.029236,-0.01506,0.003055,0.001615,0.010431,0.047564,0.001786,0.003597,-0.02111,-0.00289,-0.020222,-0.015513,-0.004694,0.00266,0.013701,-0.009755,-0.012478,0.011129,-0.003081,0.000723,-0.00491
Ancient_Greek:Amm_Epi_LBA_2,0.126344,0.160454,0.004525,-0.049419,0.028313,-0.023985,-0.00329,-0.005077,0.009817,0.048657,-0.001137,0.013788,-0.015015,-0.000826,-0.015744,-0.007823,0.017211,-0.006208,0.009427,-0.003377,-0.008984,0.006677,-0.002835,0.001687,-0.007185
Ancient_Greek:Amv_Epi_Arch,0.117238,0.167562,-0.005657,-0.059432,0.026159,-0.026495,0.005875,-0.005538,0.006545,0.03098,0.001461,0.002698,-0.021258,-0.001651,-0.017101,-0.003978,0.011735,-0.010895,0.001634,-0.000375,-0.022336,0.003091,0.001849,-0.001205,-0.009101
Ancient_Greek:Amv_Epi_Arch_1,0.121791,0.160454,-0.008674,-0.06137,0.02739,-0.028726,-0.00235,-0.004846,0.005727,0.035901,0.001949,0.01094,-0.014123,0.001239,-0.024022,-0.022142,0.00013,0.003927,0.01345,-0.015132,-0.008859,0.003462,0.005916,-0.00253,-0.002275
Ancient_Greek:Amv_Epi_Arch_2,0.101303,0.15436,0.013576,-0.054587,0.029852,-0.018128,-0.00329,0.008538,0.007976,0.041003,-0.000487,0.012139,-0.013082,-0.003441,-0.015608,0,0.018384,0.003167,0.013701,-0.007504,-0.008111,0.008037,-0.00419,0.010845,-0.008023
Ancient_Greek:Amv_Epi_Arch_3,0.119514,0.148267,-0.001508,-0.054587,0.028005,-0.011992,0.0047,-0.001385,0.007976,0.047199,0.005684,0.008992,-0.015609,0.005643,-0.024973,-0.026253,-0.007953,-0.00076,0.022751,-0.012506,-0.006489,-0.005688,0.003328,0.006868,0.001317
Ancient_Greek:Amv_Epi_Cl_1,0.122929,0.155376,0.001508,-0.064277,0.018157,-0.015897,-0.00423,-0.008769,0.011044,0.045923,-0.003735,0.013638,-0.01442,0,-0.016694,-0.004641,0.011213,0.002407,0.012696,-0.007754,-0.015847,0.002349,0.003081,0.001687,-0.00455
Ancient_Greek:Amv_Epi_Cl_2,0.119514,0.157407,0.010559,-0.047804,0.022158,-0.030399,0.0094,-0.006461,0.002863,0.04319,0.005521,0.007943,-0.009663,0.00234,-0.02253,0.000398,0.021774,-0.007095,0.000628,-0.007003,-0.01123,-0.006925,0.01023,0.016388,-0.002155
Ancient_Greek:Amv_Epi_Cl_4,0.118376,0.156392,-0.001508,-0.05168,0.020311,-0.022869,0.00846,-0.002077,0.002045,0.031709,0.003085,0.008842,-0.02111,-0.004266,-0.025108,-0.001326,0.014733,-0.001014,0.00264,-0.008129,-0.015098,0.006677,0.000493,0.006145,-0.012095
Ancient_Greek:Amv_Epi_Cl_5,0.127482,0.161469,-0.000377,-0.049742,0.030775,-0.013387,0.00094,-0.004846,0.007772,0.038087,0.007632,0.007943,-0.008325,-0.00578,-0.027144,-0.001061,0.018645,0.000887,0.006159,-0.007504,-0.015473,-0.000989,-0.00037,0.00482,0.010658
Ancient_Greek:Amv_Epi_Cl_6,0.124067,0.164516,-0.00264,-0.057171,0.033545,-0.018965,-0.005875,-0.008538,0.009613,0.041003,-0.002598,0.009292,-0.013379,0.003303,-0.023072,-0.00411,0.00691,0.005828,0.014581,-0.018134,-0.008984,-0.001607,-0.000493,0.007591,-0.002155
Ancient_Greek:Amv_Epi_Hel_1,0.104717,0.157407,0.000377,-0.041667,0.021235,-0.022869,-0.009165,-0.009692,0.0045,0.043372,-0.000325,0.006444,-0.012487,0.012386,-0.016015,0.001591,-0.013951,0.008488,0.013827,-0.013131,-0.008735,0.009769,-0.003574,0.001566,-0.004071
Ancient_Greek:Amv_Epi_Hel_4,0.119514,0.162485,0.004148,-0.057494,0.035391,-0.022869,-0.00188,-0.000462,0.01084,0.048293,0.011854,0.006294,-0.018137,-0.009634,-0.017644,-0.007955,0.005085,0.003927,0.001885,-0.017258,-0.019216,0.002226,-0.010723,-0.004699,-0.001557
Ancient_Greek:Amv_Epi_Hel_5,0.118376,0.161469,0.000754,-0.067507,0.027697,-0.01004,0.00376,-0.007384,0.012067,0.030798,0.00341,-0.001649,-0.019326,-0.003303,-0.016558,-0.001061,0.015516,-0.005194,0.000628,-0.020635,-0.0141,-0.008656,0.017255,-0.00253,-0.010658
Ancient_Greek:I13514,0.119514,0.161469,-0.000377,-0.054264,0.029544,-0.026774,-0.00987,-0.009,0.011862,0.045923,0.011042,-3.00E-04,-0.01442,0.003853,-0.016829,-0.012331,0.002868,-0.002914,0.008547,-0.011506,-0.005116,0.001237,0.001849,0.003735,-0.005987
Ancient_Greek:I13518,0.118376,0.155376,-0.010936,-0.057817,0.01908,-0.028726,-0.00423,-0.00923,0.01309,0.048657,0.005196,0.006894,-0.022596,0.002202,-0.027551,-0.006364,0.016168,0.005321,0.009553,-0.004752,-0.015847,0.007666,0.004683,-0.001084,-0.001676
Ancient_Greek:I13577,0.130897,0.164516,0.00792,-0.051357,0.028621,-0.025658,-0.003995,-0.003923,0.007976,0.027335,0.010393,0.01079,-0.025124,-0.00289,-0.018865,-0.002254,0.021122,-0.004307,0.011439,-0.00075,-0.012852,-0.007914,0.007272,0.002289,-0.002754
Ancient_Greek:I13578,0.133173,0.166547,-0.001508,-0.05814,0.042162,-0.037929,-0.013161,-0.010384,0.018203,0.052302,0.018837,0.007943,-0.008622,-0.007432,-0.014794,-0.005304,0.021253,0.00114,0.00817,0.007879,-0.015348,0.002226,0.002958,-0.003615,0.011017
Ancient_Greek:I13579,0.103579,0.1635,0.000754,-0.072675,0.028928,-0.02761,0.011516,-0.001846,0.02127,0.043008,0.001137,0.013638,-0.018434,0.014038,-0.016422,-0.023203,-0.003781,-0.004434,0.015587,-0.018509,-0.007362,-0.000124,-0.003328,0.003735,-0.00491
Ancient_Greek:I13580,0.127482,0.168578,-0.000377,-0.050065,0.025235,-0.017012,0.009165,0,0.026588,0.050115,0.007957,0.008093,-0.01888,0.002615,-0.016422,0.000398,0.019427,0.007981,0.01898,-0.016758,-0.009234,0.006554,-0.001109,0.017593,-0.001197
Ancient_Greek:I15571,0.122929,0.162485,-0.012068,-0.065892,0.022773,-0.027331,0.00564,-0.010384,0.006749,0.04647,0.005034,0.01109,-0.012933,0.000413,-0.015744,-0.006895,0.010561,0.003041,0.010559,-0.01063,-0.009858,0.012984,-0.005669,0.003856,-0.001796
Ancient_Greek:I15582,0.110408,0.173656,-0.013199,-0.062339,0.026466,-0.026774,0.00705,-0.011076,0.005522,0.043008,0.009743,0.002548,-0.01665,-0.007019,-0.025923,0.006232,0.02725,-0.001774,-0.003017,0.006253,-0.009234,0.011005,-0.011092,-0.004699,0.001796
Ancient_Greek:I16709,0.127482,0.176702,-0.003771,-0.056202,0.025543,-0.025937,0.009165,-0.004154,0.004704,0.038999,0.004384,0.024129,-0.018285,0.013762,-0.03583,-0.023601,-0.006389,0.0019,0.003394,-0.007379,-0.014849,0.011252,-0.002711,0.001687,-0.002155
Ancient_Greek:I17962,0.119514,0.161469,-0.009051,-0.057817,0.02462,-0.031794,-0.009165,-0.010384,0.01493,0.038087,0.000974,0.008542,-0.017839,-0.003853,-0.022258,0.007823,0.023208,0.00114,0.009176,0.00075,-0.02009,0.00643,-0.005176,0.014219,0.002634
Ancient_Greek:I19364_in.preparation,0.114961,0.157407,-0.00792,-0.067184,0.038161,-0.02259,-0.00611,-0.003,0.009817,0.060138,0.008931,0.007493,-0.03107,0.00055,-0.021308,-0.019225,-0.002477,-0.004181,0.012947,-0.023136,-0.003743,0.000247,0.004314,0.013737,-0.009939
Ancient_Greek:I19366,0.121791,0.156392,-0.013199,-0.065569,0.02185,-0.013945,-0.001645,-0.001846,0.005522,0.036812,0.002273,0.015436,-0.018583,0.002477,-0.016558,-0.006762,0.010691,0.003421,0.011941,0.00025,-0.001872,0.000495,-0.002095,-0.00482,0.004071
Ancient_Greek:I19368,0.106994,0.160454,0,-0.039083,0.01908,-0.019522,-0.007285,0.014307,-0.011044,0.027882,0.01494,0.018434,-0.011893,-0.000688,-0.008958,-0.013657,0.007562,-0.009375,0.018603,-0.006128,0.009109,-0.00779,-0.00419,0.006386,-0.00491
Ancient_Greek:I9006,0.119514,0.160454,-0.006788,-0.068476,0.014464,-0.03514,-0.003055,-0.006923,-0.002863,0.050115,0.004384,0.015137,-0.009366,0.00289,-0.019815,-0.005304,0.024643,0.007601,0.020992,-0.000375,-0.007487,-0.012365,-0.010969,-0.000602,-0.001796
Ancient_Greek:I9010,0.110408,0.160454,-0.015462,-0.071383,0.029544,-0.038487,-0.003525,0.004154,0.013499,0.056129,0.018025,0.017235,-0.00223,-0.00234,-0.023208,-0.005038,0.031553,0.003421,0.005908,-0.004002,-0.006613,0.003215,-0.016145,-0.007109,-0.003113
Ancient_Greek:I9033,0.091058,0.150298,-0.004148,-0.050388,0.022773,-0.013387,0.007285,-0.006692,0.003068,0.041003,-0.003573,0.019333,-0.020218,0.005505,-0.006515,-0.026518,0.00678,-0.003167,0.012193,-0.008629,-0.002995,-0.006306,-0.000616,0.005904,0.006945
Ancient_Greek:I9041,0.110408,0.15436,-0.006034,-0.068476,0.020004,-0.021475,-0.00282,0.000923,0.007976,0.042097,0.003248,0.016036,-0.019326,-0.008533,-0.016015,-0.002387,0.021122,0.006588,0.010182,-0.002876,-0.006364,0.016199,0.001356,0.006386,-0.00491
Ancient_Greek:Ten_Pel_Arch_1,0.113823,0.1635,0.004148,-0.068476,0.034776,-0.023427,-0.00705,0,0.007363,0.042461,0.007795,0.009741,-0.015163,-0.002615,-0.021308,-0.029037,-0.002347,0.003547,-0.001131,-0.014882,-0.012478,-0.003462,0.00456,0.004097,-0.001676
Ancient_Greek:Ten_Pel_Arch_2,0.118376,0.165531,0.003017,-0.052972,0.025543,-0.018686,-0.002585,-0.004154,0.005113,0.036265,0.006171,0.006294,-0.012636,0.003441,-0.017644,-0.02254,-0.007302,-0.004181,0.001885,-0.011506,-0.018218,0.001237,0.001849,0.002771,0.003233
Ancient_Greek:Ten_Pel_Hel_1,0.118376,0.160454,-0.012445,-0.059755,0.012925,-0.021475,0.007755,0,-0.004909,0.032438,-0.002111,0.012439,-0.014569,-0.00523,-0.016015,-0.007425,0.005998,-0.004434,0.005154,-0.007629,-0.00549,0.003833,0.003821,0.008194,0.000718
Ancient_Greek:Ten_Pel_LH,0.126344,0.168578,0.013576,-0.037791,0.033237,-0.020917,-0.00141,-0.006923,0.005318,0.039363,0.007307,0.011989,-0.019475,0.003028,-0.025787,-0.003978,0.002738,-0.001394,0.009679,-0.003001,-0.013975,0.010016,0.005176,0.00012,-0.00946
Paeonian:I10390,0.129758,0.15436,0.02753,-0.024225,0.028928,-0.005578,-0.00376,-0.005769,0.007567,0.025878,0.003248,0.01139,-0.015758,0.004129,-0.006515,-0.0118,-0.007171,-0.004814,0.001383,-0.015507,-0.00836,0.004946,0.001602,0.006266,-0.004311
Paeonian:I10391,0.121791,0.159438,0.018102,-0.025517,0.027697,-0.01757,-0.007755,-0.007154,0.010226,0.032074,0,0.007194,-0.007582,0.008945,-0.015336,-0.014054,-0.007432,0.005574,0.009427,-0.01113,-0.014849,0.001855,-0.002835,0.00241,-0.000359
West_Asian:Armenia_Beniamin_Achaemenid_Artaxiad_Hellenistic_Roman_possible.SG:R11651.SG,0.105855,0.139128,-0.05506,-0.060401,-0.029852,-0.024263,0.005875,-0.009461,-0.032315,-0.013485,0.002273,0.005245,-0.010109,0.007156,0.001221,-0.016043,-0.010561,0.0019,0.005908,-0.006503,0.001747,-0.006925,0.008258,0.000241,0.003113
West_Asian:Armenia_Beniamin_Achaemenid_Artaxiad_Hellenistic_Roman_possible.SG:R11653.SG,0.100164,0.145221,-0.056945,-0.050711,-0.037238,-0.012271,0.00893,-0.005538,-0.032519,-0.005467,0.005359,0.005095,-0.002527,0.004542,-0.004343,-0.001193,0.013299,-0.005448,-0.003268,0.002876,0.000125,0.00371,0.001232,-0.003615,0.003592
West_Asian:Armenia_Beniamin_Achaemenid_Artaxiad_Hellenistic_Roman_possible.SG:R11678.SG,0.102441,0.132019,-0.055437,-0.062016,-0.031698,-0.023706,-0.00188,-0.011538,-0.035792,-0.013303,0.000162,0.009442,-0.008771,0.006881,-0.0057,-0.007292,-0.015385,0.009375,0,-0.003502,0.007612,0.002226,0.003944,-0.004097,-0.003233
West_Asian:Armenia_Beniamin_Achaemenid_Artaxiad_Hellenistic_Roman_possible.SG:R11713.SG,0.103579,0.142174,-0.056945,-0.062662,-0.029852,-0.018407,0.008225,-0.006692,-0.033951,-0.003098,-0.001624,0.009591,-0.00892,0.010046,0,-0.012729,-0.001565,0.006461,-0.004148,-0.002376,0.002496,-0.004575,-0.002095,0.006868,-0.005269
West_Asian:Armenia_Beniamin_Achaemenid_Artaxiad_Hellenistic_Roman_possible.SG:R11714.SG,0.102441,0.135065,-0.060339,-0.055233,-0.03139,-0.019243,0.007285,-0.004615,-0.024747,-0.000547,0.004222,0.002698,-0.010852,0.00289,-0.005429,-0.001193,0.008605,-0.004307,0.00264,-0.003752,0.006114,0.003215,0.002095,-0.006507,0.00491
West_Asian:Armenia_Beniamin_Artaxiad_Roman_possible.SG:R11541.SG,0.09675,0.136081,-0.054682,-0.05814,-0.028621,-0.018128,0.003995,-0.006461,-0.032315,-0.001093,0.001299,0.00045,-0.010704,0.000275,0.005022,0.012861,0.02725,0.003547,-0.00264,0.003252,0.010606,-0.000989,-0.003697,0.000361,-0.002994
West_Asian:Armenia_Beniamin_Hellenistic.SG:R11546.SG,0.104717,0.13405,-0.056945,-0.052326,-0.033852,-0.008925,0.0094,-0.004846,-0.027611,-0.01385,0.001461,-0.00015,0.003271,-0.000138,-0.014929,0.015115,0.018254,-0.008108,-0.001634,0.001126,-0.002995,-0.002473,-0.000863,-0.003735,-0.005868
West_Asian:Armenia_LateHellenistic:I1636,0.102441,0.137096,-0.064488,-0.05814,-0.034776,-0.008088,0.00329,-0.004384,-0.028838,-0.016948,0.008769,-0.001199,0.001784,-0.000963,-0.000679,-0.004906,-0.00691,-0.000887,-0.002388,-0.005253,0.002371,-0.004822,-0.002835,-0.006386,-0.001437
West_Asian:Armenia_LateHellenistic:I1639,0.101303,0.135065,-0.05506,-0.053941,-0.035391,-0.018407,0.007755,-0.006923,-0.032928,-0.002551,0.004222,-0.008243,-0.002825,-0.000688,-0.007329,-0.019358,-0.016298,-0.001267,0.011061,-0.002251,0.001248,0.004451,-0.007395,0.000723,0.007065
West_Asian:Lebanon_Hellenistic.SG,0.062603,0.145221,-0.059962,-0.090117,-0.011079,-0.033746,-0.001645,-0.019384,0.004909,0.006743,0.004872,-0.005095,0.021556,-0.00523,-0.0076,0.002254,-0.007041,0.005194,0.005154,-5.00E-04,0.00025,0.00779,-0.00419,-0.007471,-0.002155
West_Asian:Lebanon_Roman.SG:QED-12_noUDG.SG,0.085367,0.149283,-0.05242,-0.08721,-0.004616,-0.032072,-0.00329,-0.004846,0.017385,0.024602,0.006333,-0.01169,0.019623,0.000138,-0.007736,-0.009016,0.004172,0.00228,-0.006788,0.013882,-0.002745,0.00272,-0.003944,0.004338,-0.012454
West_Asian:Lebanon_Roman.SG:QED-2_noUDG.SG,0.085367,0.145221,-0.047894,-0.088179,-0.004308,-0.026495,-0.00799,-0.004384,0.01084,0.005103,0,-0.012139,0.00892,-0.006193,-0.008279,0.012066,0.004694,-0.000633,0.000503,0.000625,-0.00025,0.006677,-0.003328,-0.002651,-0.008981
West_Asian:Lebanon_Roman.SG:QED-4_noUDG.SG,0.091058,0.145221,-0.057322,-0.085272,-0.017234,-0.031515,-0.00752,-0.007846,0.010022,0.022597,0.002923,-0.015886,0.009514,0.00055,-0.017915,0.020949,0.011343,-0.000253,0.003645,0.001626,0.001622,0.006677,0.00493,0.002289,-0.002275
West_Asian:Lebanon_Roman.SG:QED-7_noUDG.SG,0.087644,0.148267,-0.067882,-0.088179,-0.013541,-0.025937,-0.00752,-0.012692,-0.002659,0.01057,-0.00065,-0.003747,0.010852,0.005092,-0.005429,0.014452,-0.008996,-0.005194,0.007668,-0.000625,0.003494,0.002349,-0.006409,-0.013496,0
 
What i have noticed so far is that the greeks during Hellenistic times and onwards didn't just become more west anatolian but they seem to have absorbed some east anatolian /mesopotamian like ancestry plus some additional logkas ancestry.I run some models by using archaic and classical era greeks from the tenea study and they have some extra steppe compared to LBA greeks.
Jovialis said:
If this is based on G25, I’d be cautious about overinterpreting it. G25 is serviceable as a broad PCA-distance heuristic, but it is not the same thing as modeling polymorphic SNP data against informative outgroups. Historically, some degree of admixture between Greeks and eastern populations during the Hellenistic period is plausible. But for mainland Greeks, the clearest signal I see in Roman-era Tenea is Anatolian-related input, not a demonstrable East Anatolian or Mesopotamian shift. More broadly, the pattern may be better understood as Anatolians becoming more Greek-like over time, rather than mainland Greeks acquiring substantial Mesopotamian-like ancestry. Lazaridis demonstrated the shift of Anatolians becoming more Greek-like overtime.
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Yeah you are right maybe im overinterprenting it when modeling with g25 the roman tenea greeks it creates a better fit using something like the batman Turkey sample who seems to have a pull towards mesopotamia but then again g25 is an amateurs tool and should not be taken to seriously
 
Jovialis said:
FWIW, I can model myself as 80% LBA Greek with additional Steppe. But I maintain it is truly more attrbuted to Southern Italian BA + Steppe-rich Balkan influence that was re-enforced by later Greek enrichment,

At any rate, let us get back on topic.

View attachment 19453
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This is interesting, Logkas (02 and 04) using the same model:

1774868964751.png
 
Bill7 said:
What i have noticed so far is that the greeks during Hellenistic times and onwards didn't just become more west anatolian but they seem to have absorbed some east anatolian /mesopotamian like ancestry plus some additional logkas ancestry.I run some models by using archaic and classical era greeks from the tenea study and they have some extra steppe compared to LBA greeks.

Yeah you are right maybe im overinterprenting it when modeling with g25 the roman tenea greeks it creates a better fit using something like the batman Turkey sample who seems to have a pull towards mesopotamia but then again g25 is an amateurs tool and should not be taken to seriously
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Even qpAdm can be misinterpreted, or misused (i.e. conditioning outgroups with proximal sources with overlap). But qpAdm has specific guardrails that helps make it more rigorous. Such as standard error and Z value. At any rate, multiple tools are necessary academic quality conclusions.
 
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Jovialis said:
Even qpAdm can be misinterpreted, or misused (i.e. conditioning outgroups with proximal sources with overlap). But qpAdm has specific guardrails that helps make it more rigorous. Such as standard error and Z value. At any rate, multiple tools are necessary academic quality conclusions.
Click to expand...
Wait, global25 is based on PCA and qpAdm goes deeper and actually looks at your genetic profile? I know PCAs don’t give the whole story, you can have people plot together but they can have way different structures. Like a half British half Saudi plotting with Sicilians, modelling Sicily with a British and a Saudi is total insanity as you’re comparing a heavy EEF/CHG/steppe population (Sicilians) with a sample that gets dragged down by the heavy natufian from the Saudi side and dragged up by the heavy whg/steppe of the British side.
 
davef said:
Wait, global25 is based on PCA and qpAdm goes deeper and actually looks at your genetic profile? I know PCAs don’t give the whole story, you can have people plot together but they can have way different structures. Like a half British half Saudi plotting with Sicilians, modelling Sicily with a British and a Saudi is total insanity as you’re comparing a heavy EEF/CHG/steppe population (Sicilians) with a sample that gets dragged down by the heavy natufian from the Saudi side and dragged up by the heavy whg/steppe of the British side.
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Yeah, it measures the genetic distance based on PCA distance, which is based on Davidski's hand picked 25 populations that flatten complex genetic into values. Instead of analyzing hundreds of thousands of polymorphic SNPs that actually fit. When I was on X, and I asked actual geneticists about G25, many haven't even heard of it. It goes to show how invisible this type of analysis is to people who actually matter.

When you actually test Sicilians as English and Saudi, you can see that it fails spectacularly with an extremely low p-value. (0.05 to 1 is passing)

1774897428680.png


Moving forward, I would like for this thread to remain specifically about mainland Greeks, from the BA to the Early Roman period. If you would like to learn more about qpAdm, there's many topics in the autosomal DNA sub-forum.
 
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Jovialis said:
Yeah, it measures the genetic distance based on PCA distance, which is based on Davidski's hand picked 25 populations that flatten complex genetic into values. Instead of analyzing hundreds of thousands of polymorphic SNPs that actually fit. When I was on X, and I asked actual geneticists about G25, many haven't even heard of it. It goes to show how invisible this type of analysis is to people who actually matter.

When you actually test Sicilians as English and Saudi, you can see that it fails spectacularly with an extremely low p-value. (0.05 to 1 is passing)

View attachment 19459

Moving forward, I would like for this thread to remain specifically about mainland Greeks, from the BA to the Early Roman period. If you would like to learn more about qpAdm, there's many topics in the autosomal DNA sub-forum.
Click to expand...
True, can’t wait to see more of those 58 samples bill has with him.
 
Very interesting how Ancient Greeks can be modeled as Upper Paleolithic Caucasians, and how they cluster with them...

1775158470455.png


1775158504694.png
 
lockdownboredom said:
Any ideas why the Roman Mainland Greece samples score less Ancient Greek than the West Anatolian Byzantium samples?

image.png


Model:

Code: 
Ancient_Greek:Amm_Epi_LBA_1,0.122929,0.1635,0.013199,-0.047804,0.029236,-0.01506,0.003055,0.001615,0.010431,0.047564,0.001786,0.003597,-0.02111,-0.00289,-0.020222,-0.015513,-0.004694,0.00266,0.013701,-0.009755,-0.012478,0.011129,-0.003081,0.000723,-0.00491
Ancient_Greek:Amm_Epi_LBA_2,0.126344,0.160454,0.004525,-0.049419,0.028313,-0.023985,-0.00329,-0.005077,0.009817,0.048657,-0.001137,0.013788,-0.015015,-0.000826,-0.015744,-0.007823,0.017211,-0.006208,0.009427,-0.003377,-0.008984,0.006677,-0.002835,0.001687,-0.007185
Ancient_Greek:Amv_Epi_Arch,0.117238,0.167562,-0.005657,-0.059432,0.026159,-0.026495,0.005875,-0.005538,0.006545,0.03098,0.001461,0.002698,-0.021258,-0.001651,-0.017101,-0.003978,0.011735,-0.010895,0.001634,-0.000375,-0.022336,0.003091,0.001849,-0.001205,-0.009101
Ancient_Greek:Amv_Epi_Arch_1,0.121791,0.160454,-0.008674,-0.06137,0.02739,-0.028726,-0.00235,-0.004846,0.005727,0.035901,0.001949,0.01094,-0.014123,0.001239,-0.024022,-0.022142,0.00013,0.003927,0.01345,-0.015132,-0.008859,0.003462,0.005916,-0.00253,-0.002275
Ancient_Greek:Amv_Epi_Arch_2,0.101303,0.15436,0.013576,-0.054587,0.029852,-0.018128,-0.00329,0.008538,0.007976,0.041003,-0.000487,0.012139,-0.013082,-0.003441,-0.015608,0,0.018384,0.003167,0.013701,-0.007504,-0.008111,0.008037,-0.00419,0.010845,-0.008023
Ancient_Greek:Amv_Epi_Arch_3,0.119514,0.148267,-0.001508,-0.054587,0.028005,-0.011992,0.0047,-0.001385,0.007976,0.047199,0.005684,0.008992,-0.015609,0.005643,-0.024973,-0.026253,-0.007953,-0.00076,0.022751,-0.012506,-0.006489,-0.005688,0.003328,0.006868,0.001317
Ancient_Greek:Amv_Epi_Cl_1,0.122929,0.155376,0.001508,-0.064277,0.018157,-0.015897,-0.00423,-0.008769,0.011044,0.045923,-0.003735,0.013638,-0.01442,0,-0.016694,-0.004641,0.011213,0.002407,0.012696,-0.007754,-0.015847,0.002349,0.003081,0.001687,-0.00455
Ancient_Greek:Amv_Epi_Cl_2,0.119514,0.157407,0.010559,-0.047804,0.022158,-0.030399,0.0094,-0.006461,0.002863,0.04319,0.005521,0.007943,-0.009663,0.00234,-0.02253,0.000398,0.021774,-0.007095,0.000628,-0.007003,-0.01123,-0.006925,0.01023,0.016388,-0.002155
Ancient_Greek:Amv_Epi_Cl_4,0.118376,0.156392,-0.001508,-0.05168,0.020311,-0.022869,0.00846,-0.002077,0.002045,0.031709,0.003085,0.008842,-0.02111,-0.004266,-0.025108,-0.001326,0.014733,-0.001014,0.00264,-0.008129,-0.015098,0.006677,0.000493,0.006145,-0.012095
Ancient_Greek:Amv_Epi_Cl_5,0.127482,0.161469,-0.000377,-0.049742,0.030775,-0.013387,0.00094,-0.004846,0.007772,0.038087,0.007632,0.007943,-0.008325,-0.00578,-0.027144,-0.001061,0.018645,0.000887,0.006159,-0.007504,-0.015473,-0.000989,-0.00037,0.00482,0.010658
Ancient_Greek:Amv_Epi_Cl_6,0.124067,0.164516,-0.00264,-0.057171,0.033545,-0.018965,-0.005875,-0.008538,0.009613,0.041003,-0.002598,0.009292,-0.013379,0.003303,-0.023072,-0.00411,0.00691,0.005828,0.014581,-0.018134,-0.008984,-0.001607,-0.000493,0.007591,-0.002155
Ancient_Greek:Amv_Epi_Hel_1,0.104717,0.157407,0.000377,-0.041667,0.021235,-0.022869,-0.009165,-0.009692,0.0045,0.043372,-0.000325,0.006444,-0.012487,0.012386,-0.016015,0.001591,-0.013951,0.008488,0.013827,-0.013131,-0.008735,0.009769,-0.003574,0.001566,-0.004071
Ancient_Greek:Amv_Epi_Hel_4,0.119514,0.162485,0.004148,-0.057494,0.035391,-0.022869,-0.00188,-0.000462,0.01084,0.048293,0.011854,0.006294,-0.018137,-0.009634,-0.017644,-0.007955,0.005085,0.003927,0.001885,-0.017258,-0.019216,0.002226,-0.010723,-0.004699,-0.001557
Ancient_Greek:Amv_Epi_Hel_5,0.118376,0.161469,0.000754,-0.067507,0.027697,-0.01004,0.00376,-0.007384,0.012067,0.030798,0.00341,-0.001649,-0.019326,-0.003303,-0.016558,-0.001061,0.015516,-0.005194,0.000628,-0.020635,-0.0141,-0.008656,0.017255,-0.00253,-0.010658
Ancient_Greek:I13514,0.119514,0.161469,-0.000377,-0.054264,0.029544,-0.026774,-0.00987,-0.009,0.011862,0.045923,0.011042,-3.00E-04,-0.01442,0.003853,-0.016829,-0.012331,0.002868,-0.002914,0.008547,-0.011506,-0.005116,0.001237,0.001849,0.003735,-0.005987
Ancient_Greek:I13518,0.118376,0.155376,-0.010936,-0.057817,0.01908,-0.028726,-0.00423,-0.00923,0.01309,0.048657,0.005196,0.006894,-0.022596,0.002202,-0.027551,-0.006364,0.016168,0.005321,0.009553,-0.004752,-0.015847,0.007666,0.004683,-0.001084,-0.001676
Ancient_Greek:I13577,0.130897,0.164516,0.00792,-0.051357,0.028621,-0.025658,-0.003995,-0.003923,0.007976,0.027335,0.010393,0.01079,-0.025124,-0.00289,-0.018865,-0.002254,0.021122,-0.004307,0.011439,-0.00075,-0.012852,-0.007914,0.007272,0.002289,-0.002754
Ancient_Greek:I13578,0.133173,0.166547,-0.001508,-0.05814,0.042162,-0.037929,-0.013161,-0.010384,0.018203,0.052302,0.018837,0.007943,-0.008622,-0.007432,-0.014794,-0.005304,0.021253,0.00114,0.00817,0.007879,-0.015348,0.002226,0.002958,-0.003615,0.011017
Ancient_Greek:I13579,0.103579,0.1635,0.000754,-0.072675,0.028928,-0.02761,0.011516,-0.001846,0.02127,0.043008,0.001137,0.013638,-0.018434,0.014038,-0.016422,-0.023203,-0.003781,-0.004434,0.015587,-0.018509,-0.007362,-0.000124,-0.003328,0.003735,-0.00491
Ancient_Greek:I13580,0.127482,0.168578,-0.000377,-0.050065,0.025235,-0.017012,0.009165,0,0.026588,0.050115,0.007957,0.008093,-0.01888,0.002615,-0.016422,0.000398,0.019427,0.007981,0.01898,-0.016758,-0.009234,0.006554,-0.001109,0.017593,-0.001197
Ancient_Greek:I15571,0.122929,0.162485,-0.012068,-0.065892,0.022773,-0.027331,0.00564,-0.010384,0.006749,0.04647,0.005034,0.01109,-0.012933,0.000413,-0.015744,-0.006895,0.010561,0.003041,0.010559,-0.01063,-0.009858,0.012984,-0.005669,0.003856,-0.001796
Ancient_Greek:I15582,0.110408,0.173656,-0.013199,-0.062339,0.026466,-0.026774,0.00705,-0.011076,0.005522,0.043008,0.009743,0.002548,-0.01665,-0.007019,-0.025923,0.006232,0.02725,-0.001774,-0.003017,0.006253,-0.009234,0.011005,-0.011092,-0.004699,0.001796
Ancient_Greek:I16709,0.127482,0.176702,-0.003771,-0.056202,0.025543,-0.025937,0.009165,-0.004154,0.004704,0.038999,0.004384,0.024129,-0.018285,0.013762,-0.03583,-0.023601,-0.006389,0.0019,0.003394,-0.007379,-0.014849,0.011252,-0.002711,0.001687,-0.002155
Ancient_Greek:I17962,0.119514,0.161469,-0.009051,-0.057817,0.02462,-0.031794,-0.009165,-0.010384,0.01493,0.038087,0.000974,0.008542,-0.017839,-0.003853,-0.022258,0.007823,0.023208,0.00114,0.009176,0.00075,-0.02009,0.00643,-0.005176,0.014219,0.002634
Ancient_Greek:I19364_in.preparation,0.114961,0.157407,-0.00792,-0.067184,0.038161,-0.02259,-0.00611,-0.003,0.009817,0.060138,0.008931,0.007493,-0.03107,0.00055,-0.021308,-0.019225,-0.002477,-0.004181,0.012947,-0.023136,-0.003743,0.000247,0.004314,0.013737,-0.009939
Ancient_Greek:I19366,0.121791,0.156392,-0.013199,-0.065569,0.02185,-0.013945,-0.001645,-0.001846,0.005522,0.036812,0.002273,0.015436,-0.018583,0.002477,-0.016558,-0.006762,0.010691,0.003421,0.011941,0.00025,-0.001872,0.000495,-0.002095,-0.00482,0.004071
Ancient_Greek:I19368,0.106994,0.160454,0,-0.039083,0.01908,-0.019522,-0.007285,0.014307,-0.011044,0.027882,0.01494,0.018434,-0.011893,-0.000688,-0.008958,-0.013657,0.007562,-0.009375,0.018603,-0.006128,0.009109,-0.00779,-0.00419,0.006386,-0.00491
Ancient_Greek:I9006,0.119514,0.160454,-0.006788,-0.068476,0.014464,-0.03514,-0.003055,-0.006923,-0.002863,0.050115,0.004384,0.015137,-0.009366,0.00289,-0.019815,-0.005304,0.024643,0.007601,0.020992,-0.000375,-0.007487,-0.012365,-0.010969,-0.000602,-0.001796
Ancient_Greek:I9010,0.110408,0.160454,-0.015462,-0.071383,0.029544,-0.038487,-0.003525,0.004154,0.013499,0.056129,0.018025,0.017235,-0.00223,-0.00234,-0.023208,-0.005038,0.031553,0.003421,0.005908,-0.004002,-0.006613,0.003215,-0.016145,-0.007109,-0.003113
Ancient_Greek:I9033,0.091058,0.150298,-0.004148,-0.050388,0.022773,-0.013387,0.007285,-0.006692,0.003068,0.041003,-0.003573,0.019333,-0.020218,0.005505,-0.006515,-0.026518,0.00678,-0.003167,0.012193,-0.008629,-0.002995,-0.006306,-0.000616,0.005904,0.006945
Ancient_Greek:I9041,0.110408,0.15436,-0.006034,-0.068476,0.020004,-0.021475,-0.00282,0.000923,0.007976,0.042097,0.003248,0.016036,-0.019326,-0.008533,-0.016015,-0.002387,0.021122,0.006588,0.010182,-0.002876,-0.006364,0.016199,0.001356,0.006386,-0.00491
Ancient_Greek:Ten_Pel_Arch_1,0.113823,0.1635,0.004148,-0.068476,0.034776,-0.023427,-0.00705,0,0.007363,0.042461,0.007795,0.009741,-0.015163,-0.002615,-0.021308,-0.029037,-0.002347,0.003547,-0.001131,-0.014882,-0.012478,-0.003462,0.00456,0.004097,-0.001676
Ancient_Greek:Ten_Pel_Arch_2,0.118376,0.165531,0.003017,-0.052972,0.025543,-0.018686,-0.002585,-0.004154,0.005113,0.036265,0.006171,0.006294,-0.012636,0.003441,-0.017644,-0.02254,-0.007302,-0.004181,0.001885,-0.011506,-0.018218,0.001237,0.001849,0.002771,0.003233
Ancient_Greek:Ten_Pel_Hel_1,0.118376,0.160454,-0.012445,-0.059755,0.012925,-0.021475,0.007755,0,-0.004909,0.032438,-0.002111,0.012439,-0.014569,-0.00523,-0.016015,-0.007425,0.005998,-0.004434,0.005154,-0.007629,-0.00549,0.003833,0.003821,0.008194,0.000718
Ancient_Greek:Ten_Pel_LH,0.126344,0.168578,0.013576,-0.037791,0.033237,-0.020917,-0.00141,-0.006923,0.005318,0.039363,0.007307,0.011989,-0.019475,0.003028,-0.025787,-0.003978,0.002738,-0.001394,0.009679,-0.003001,-0.013975,0.010016,0.005176,0.00012,-0.00946
Paeonian:I10390,0.129758,0.15436,0.02753,-0.024225,0.028928,-0.005578,-0.00376,-0.005769,0.007567,0.025878,0.003248,0.01139,-0.015758,0.004129,-0.006515,-0.0118,-0.007171,-0.004814,0.001383,-0.015507,-0.00836,0.004946,0.001602,0.006266,-0.004311
Paeonian:I10391,0.121791,0.159438,0.018102,-0.025517,0.027697,-0.01757,-0.007755,-0.007154,0.010226,0.032074,0,0.007194,-0.007582,0.008945,-0.015336,-0.014054,-0.007432,0.005574,0.009427,-0.01113,-0.014849,0.001855,-0.002835,0.00241,-0.000359
West_Asian:Armenia_Beniamin_Achaemenid_Artaxiad_Hellenistic_Roman_possible.SG:R11651.SG,0.105855,0.139128,-0.05506,-0.060401,-0.029852,-0.024263,0.005875,-0.009461,-0.032315,-0.013485,0.002273,0.005245,-0.010109,0.007156,0.001221,-0.016043,-0.010561,0.0019,0.005908,-0.006503,0.001747,-0.006925,0.008258,0.000241,0.003113
West_Asian:Armenia_Beniamin_Achaemenid_Artaxiad_Hellenistic_Roman_possible.SG:R11653.SG,0.100164,0.145221,-0.056945,-0.050711,-0.037238,-0.012271,0.00893,-0.005538,-0.032519,-0.005467,0.005359,0.005095,-0.002527,0.004542,-0.004343,-0.001193,0.013299,-0.005448,-0.003268,0.002876,0.000125,0.00371,0.001232,-0.003615,0.003592
West_Asian:Armenia_Beniamin_Achaemenid_Artaxiad_Hellenistic_Roman_possible.SG:R11678.SG,0.102441,0.132019,-0.055437,-0.062016,-0.031698,-0.023706,-0.00188,-0.011538,-0.035792,-0.013303,0.000162,0.009442,-0.008771,0.006881,-0.0057,-0.007292,-0.015385,0.009375,0,-0.003502,0.007612,0.002226,0.003944,-0.004097,-0.003233
West_Asian:Armenia_Beniamin_Achaemenid_Artaxiad_Hellenistic_Roman_possible.SG:R11713.SG,0.103579,0.142174,-0.056945,-0.062662,-0.029852,-0.018407,0.008225,-0.006692,-0.033951,-0.003098,-0.001624,0.009591,-0.00892,0.010046,0,-0.012729,-0.001565,0.006461,-0.004148,-0.002376,0.002496,-0.004575,-0.002095,0.006868,-0.005269
West_Asian:Armenia_Beniamin_Achaemenid_Artaxiad_Hellenistic_Roman_possible.SG:R11714.SG,0.102441,0.135065,-0.060339,-0.055233,-0.03139,-0.019243,0.007285,-0.004615,-0.024747,-0.000547,0.004222,0.002698,-0.010852,0.00289,-0.005429,-0.001193,0.008605,-0.004307,0.00264,-0.003752,0.006114,0.003215,0.002095,-0.006507,0.00491
West_Asian:Armenia_Beniamin_Artaxiad_Roman_possible.SG:R11541.SG,0.09675,0.136081,-0.054682,-0.05814,-0.028621,-0.018128,0.003995,-0.006461,-0.032315,-0.001093,0.001299,0.00045,-0.010704,0.000275,0.005022,0.012861,0.02725,0.003547,-0.00264,0.003252,0.010606,-0.000989,-0.003697,0.000361,-0.002994
West_Asian:Armenia_Beniamin_Hellenistic.SG:R11546.SG,0.104717,0.13405,-0.056945,-0.052326,-0.033852,-0.008925,0.0094,-0.004846,-0.027611,-0.01385,0.001461,-0.00015,0.003271,-0.000138,-0.014929,0.015115,0.018254,-0.008108,-0.001634,0.001126,-0.002995,-0.002473,-0.000863,-0.003735,-0.005868
West_Asian:Armenia_LateHellenistic:I1636,0.102441,0.137096,-0.064488,-0.05814,-0.034776,-0.008088,0.00329,-0.004384,-0.028838,-0.016948,0.008769,-0.001199,0.001784,-0.000963,-0.000679,-0.004906,-0.00691,-0.000887,-0.002388,-0.005253,0.002371,-0.004822,-0.002835,-0.006386,-0.001437
West_Asian:Armenia_LateHellenistic:I1639,0.101303,0.135065,-0.05506,-0.053941,-0.035391,-0.018407,0.007755,-0.006923,-0.032928,-0.002551,0.004222,-0.008243,-0.002825,-0.000688,-0.007329,-0.019358,-0.016298,-0.001267,0.011061,-0.002251,0.001248,0.004451,-0.007395,0.000723,0.007065
West_Asian:Lebanon_Hellenistic.SG,0.062603,0.145221,-0.059962,-0.090117,-0.011079,-0.033746,-0.001645,-0.019384,0.004909,0.006743,0.004872,-0.005095,0.021556,-0.00523,-0.0076,0.002254,-0.007041,0.005194,0.005154,-5.00E-04,0.00025,0.00779,-0.00419,-0.007471,-0.002155
West_Asian:Lebanon_Roman.SG:QED-12_noUDG.SG,0.085367,0.149283,-0.05242,-0.08721,-0.004616,-0.032072,-0.00329,-0.004846,0.017385,0.024602,0.006333,-0.01169,0.019623,0.000138,-0.007736,-0.009016,0.004172,0.00228,-0.006788,0.013882,-0.002745,0.00272,-0.003944,0.004338,-0.012454
West_Asian:Lebanon_Roman.SG:QED-2_noUDG.SG,0.085367,0.145221,-0.047894,-0.088179,-0.004308,-0.026495,-0.00799,-0.004384,0.01084,0.005103,0,-0.012139,0.00892,-0.006193,-0.008279,0.012066,0.004694,-0.000633,0.000503,0.000625,-0.00025,0.006677,-0.003328,-0.002651,-0.008981
West_Asian:Lebanon_Roman.SG:QED-4_noUDG.SG,0.091058,0.145221,-0.057322,-0.085272,-0.017234,-0.031515,-0.00752,-0.007846,0.010022,0.022597,0.002923,-0.015886,0.009514,0.00055,-0.017915,0.020949,0.011343,-0.000253,0.003645,0.001626,0.001622,0.006677,0.00493,0.002289,-0.002275
West_Asian:Lebanon_Roman.SG:QED-7_noUDG.SG,0.087644,0.148267,-0.067882,-0.088179,-0.013541,-0.025937,-0.00752,-0.012692,-0.002659,0.01057,-0.00065,-0.003747,0.010852,0.005092,-0.005429,0.014452,-0.008996,-0.005194,0.007668,-0.000625,0.003494,0.002349,-0.006409,-0.013496,0
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Could they be recent immigrants from west anatolia?
 
How does the Georgian end up there? It has no anatolian farmer, whereas everyone else in that area has at least 55 pct anatolian neolithic. I would've expected closer to Iranians

www.exploreyourdna.com

KK1 - Ancient DNA Sample - Genetic Ancestry Analysis

Ancient DNA sample KK1 from Georgia. Georgia_Kotias_Mesolithic
www.exploreyourdna.com www.exploreyourdna.com
 
davef said:
How does the Georgian end up there? It has no anatolian farmer, whereas everyone else in that area has at least 55 pct anatolian neolithic. I would've expected closer to Iranians

www.exploreyourdna.com

KK1 - Ancient DNA Sample - Genetic Ancestry Analysis

Ancient DNA sample KK1 from Georgia. Georgia_Kotias_Mesolithic
www.exploreyourdna.com www.exploreyourdna.com
Click to expand...
That is not the same sample, that is from Allentoft et al. 2024

It is a completely different sample than what you are talking about. NEO283 not KK1

NEO283 is Upper Paleolithic, and KK1 is Mesolithic.

1775159283407.png
 
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Dianatomia said:
Just note, the Logkas sample was found inland. A mountainous area isolated from the Sea. This might be a factor since Cycladic and Cretan sea fairing civilisations had a very long time to put their genetic mark on all coastal areas of the Aegean. As such, Paeonian and Logkas could be a good proxy for inland Greek tribes. Not North Greek tribes overall.
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Both Logkas samples actually seem to have a bit of Minoan/Cycladic-like ancestry. Both have CHG/Iran iirc. From Clemente's paper
 
Bill7 said:
So these are the 58 samples most of them seem to have a mycaenean profile but there are 3 outliers among them. 144054 who seems to be a west anatolian the 143949 who clusters closely with the mygdalia samples so therotically he coulb be a northern ancient greek or an illyrian and lastly 143997who clusters with iron age sicillians
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probably not, Illyrians had around 40% yamnaya-like and little to no chg/iran
 
That Anatolia-Levant clustering looks interesting, I guess as you move south/east you come across people with less Anatolian farmer but more natufian and chg so they’re probably avg half n half Anatolia Bronze Age and Levantine. It would make sense as turkey forms somewhat of a bridge from Europe to the Levant or dead east into Iran
 
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