https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...498v1.full.pdf
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...07.30.454498v1
for Salento
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thanks for sharing:good_job:
y dna ( again no e1b1b not even european e-v13 )
ORD004- r1b-m269
ORD011-r1b-p312
SGR002-r1b-m269
ORD014-j2b2 -L283
SAL001-J2B -M241
SAL010-J2B M241
ORD019-I2D-Z2093
SAL011-I2D-M223
SGR001-I1-M253
regions of samples :
https://i.imgur.com/qcE4MDR.png
Great two Illyrian samples.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingjohn
Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
Yeah, very interesting, so it looks the original Daunians/Messapians/Iapyges were J2b2-L283 and R1b-M269.
As for E-V13 not being found, it's more and more clear it's related with the cremation burials introduction in Balkans, so partial Illyrians who practiced cremation on a pyre, Thracians, and probably many of those E-V13 Z5018 in Apuglia is of Greek origin with some being recent Albanian migration.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawk
very likely
at the moment
the source in modern south italy must be anicent greek colonies :smile:
p.s
let us wait for the anicent campanian dna paper i predict there would be some
e-v13 but i might be wrong
:)
Very much in line with the rumored North Albania samples.
...
I hope Parapoitikos is not having a seizure trying to fit these new facts into his idiotheories.
The Matt-Painted Pottery Culture was older than Late Bronze Age in South-East Italy and those were the assimilated people by Daunians/Messapians/Iapyges, so Illyrians didn't bring Matt-Painted Pottery Culture and didn't come via South Albania, probably the J2b2-L283 came via Dalmatia considering that Iapodes living in North Adriatic have very similar name to Iapyges. But then again this is the confusing part, Iapodes used cremation urns something which Iapyges never did.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingjohn
Burial customs comparisons are the most robust way of comparing ancient cultures since they will be last thing a culture will change. Remember, the only reason we saw E-V13 in Iron Age Bulgaria was that the ritual pits were secondary burials, and those were either human sacrifices or criminals otherwise the Psenicevo-Babadag Culture used cremation as primary burial?!(not 100% sure about this though, need to check).
Earliest Messapic inscriptions in italy begin in 7th century BC.
Some amazing results. Fantastic to have L283 and R1b-M269 confirmed.
I now hope for a paper like this of Apulia, where the epicentre of Messapic language inscriptions is
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ez4wkQxW...jpg&name=large
Glasinac-Mat Culture: J2b2-L283
Trebeniste Culture (not Matt-Painted Pottery Culture): E-V13
i guess. Let's see.
Nice Find Torzio. Very interesting paper.Quote:
Originally Posted by torzio
Salento might find some relatives among the sample.
thanks Torzio :)Quote:
Originally Posted by torzio
It’s very possible :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani
… the Dauni are geographically closer to Jovialis, … I’m from the Messapii area of Puglia, though the Iapygians (Dauni, Peucetii and Messapi) all spoke Messapico (supposedly).
Apulia has been inhabited for over 20,000 years (even earlier if we add Neanderthal).
… keep that in mind when theorizing admixtures and haplogroups provenance.
Fascinating! Thanks for sharing this, I look forward to the samples.
Ok, thanks for that information. Looking at the geographic sites, they are all from Ordono, Salapia and San Giovanni Rotondo closer to Campania border rather than Salento part of Apulia on Southern Heel. Makes sense, thanks for making note of that. So Jovialis could be the one more likely to find some ancient relatives.Quote:
Originally Posted by Salento
One of the samples from Salapia (SAL011) is Y-DNA I-M223 (I2d-M223) so that is kind of interesting to me on a personal note, although beyond being I-M223, Don't know much more about my subclade (eventually will have to do Big-Y).
Thanks again, PT
I think it is possible this is where my paternal-lineage comes from.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingjohn
Quote:
Originally Posted by Salento
As I have been saying for many year ...........Daunians and the other messapic linguistic tribes come from the north-adriatic
Within the described Pan Mediterranean landscape, the IAA/Daunians show a compelling 264
heterogeneity, and the highest genetic affinity to Republican Romans and Iron Age Croatians,
ironage croatians are the Liburnians
Italian historians always stated Liburnians colonised the Picene and Corfu , they where not sure if the colonignised Foggia with the Daunians or these Daunians being a branch of Iapygians/Iapjodes or where in the Liburnian league and lived in the hinterland of Liburnia
what historians say
https://i.postimg.cc/XYfzcvHS/daun.png
liburnian samples
https://i.postimg.cc/85PTqXDn/liburnain-samples.png
what the ancients say about the Liburnians
LIBURNI
Eth. LIBURNI (Λιβυρνοί, Scyl. p. 7; Strab. vi. p.269, vii. p. 317; Appian, App. Ill. 12; Steph. B. sub voce Schol. ad Nicand. 607: Pomp. Mela, 2.3.12; Plin. iii,. 25; Flor. 2.5), a people who occupied the N. part of Illyricum, or the district called LIBURNIA (Λιβυρνὶς χώρα, Scyl. p. 7; Λιβουρνία, Ptol. 2.16.8, 8.7.7; Plin.3.6, 23, 26; Peut. Tab.; Orelli, Inscr. n. 664). The Liburnians were an ancient people, who, together with the Siculians, had occupied the opposite coast of Picenum; they had a city there, Truentum, which had continued in existence amid all the changes of the population (Plin. Nat. 3.18). Niebuhr (Hist. of Rome, vol. i. p. 50, trans.) has conjectured that they were a Pelasgian race. However this may be, it is certain that at the time when the historical accounts of these coasts begin they were very extensively diffused. Corcyra, before the Greeks took possession of it, was peopled by them. (Strab. vi. p.269.) So was Issa and the neighbouring islands. (Schol. ad Apollon. 4.564.) They were also considerably extended to the N., for Noricum, it is evident, had been previously in. habited by Liburnian tribes; for the Vindelicians were Liburnians (Serv. ad Viry. Aen. 1.243), and Strabo (iv. p.206) makes a distinction between them and the Breuni and Genauni, whom he calls Illyrians. The words of Virgil (l.c.), too, seem distinctly to term the Veneti Liburnians, for the “innermost realm of the Liburnians” must have been the goal at which Antenor is said to have arrived.
Driven out from the countries between Pannonia and the Veneti by the Gallic invasion, they were compressed within the district from the Titius to the Arsia, which assumed the title of Liburnia. A wild and piratical race (Liv. 10.2), they used privateers ( “lembi,” “naves Liburnicae” ) with one very large lateen sail, which, adopted by the Romans in their struggle with Carthage (Eutrop. 2.22) and in the Second Macedonian War (Liv. 42.48), supplanted gradually the high-bulwarked galleys which had formerly been in use. (Caes. B.C. 3.5; Hor. Epod. 1.1.) Liburnia was afterwards incorporated with the province of Dalmatia, and IADERA its capital, was made a Roman colony.
I have never seen notes on Dalmatians prior to 500BC ....but have seen notes on Liburnians from 1100Bc ..................Are the dalmatians a branch of Liburnians or did they come from a branch of Pannonians
and Liburnian diet is land based, which further emphasies the large lands they owned
https://i.postimg.cc/dQgWmX09/liburnian-food.png
Interesting, so basically modern Apulia is eastern-shifted from the IA Iapygian; much like the way modern Balkanites, and Greeks are eastern shifted from their IA and BA ancestors. As for Imperial Romans, it seems modern Puglia overlaps with the C6 Mediterranean cluster. Maybe this was the population at large (C6), outside of Iapygian dominion? The people that were there before them? As well as southern Italian IA Greeks? Perhaps these earlier groups harbored the higher amount of CHG.
https://i.imgur.com/J32aoHC.png
https://i.imgur.com/9PrZLOH.jpg
Seems like ancient Daunians should be C7 and as they moved further south into the heel absorbed Italic tribes who where C6 ..............only explanation unless you want to say the paper is wrongQuote:
Originally Posted by Jovialis
They are west of Central and Southern Italy according to the PCA, and southwest of North Italy. Between C6 and C7. Also, I was talking about modern Puglia, not IA.Quote:
Originally Posted by torzio
https://i.imgur.com/3Rp8SKk.pngQuote:
Originally Posted by Jovialis
The paper says affinity with iron-age Croatians ..................it does not say affinity with iron-age Bosnians or MontenegriansQuote:
Originally Posted by Jovialis
I think we should check sample R1 and see if she , who was born in Liburnia and died in Picene Marche is linked with any of these samples
I am just going by the PCA of the paper, where does Croatian IA plot? I don't see it in the PCA.Quote:
Originally Posted by torzio
I think E-V13 has nothing to do with Illyrians after this.
It's likely Thracian and possibly Greek marker. I think it should match well the spread of cremation burials in Balkans during Late Bronze Age to Iron Age.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawk
you have some E-V13 in these croatian ( liburnian -dalmatian areas )
R1a-M17 ... 31%
I2a-Y3120 ... 25%
R1b ... 16%
J2 ... 12%
G2a-P15 ... 7%
E1b-V13 ... 4%
and other 4% is T, L, N and I1
@Torzio,
Could you cite the part of the paper that says they have an affinity to Croatian IA as well? I have only had a chance to skim through it. Don't mean to be lazy, but I have a lot of personal tasks to do at the moment. I mean to read the paper in full later tonight.
On the PCA they appear to be south of Iberians, and west of Central and Southern Italy.
https://i.imgur.com/3Rp8SKk.png
see post #18Quote:
Originally Posted by Jovialis
How it can be Greek if expanded in Iron Age from Danubian Basin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawk
Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
Thanks for that, looks like they are genetically "south" of Italy_IA_Republic (highlighted inside the purple square). Indeed, they have an affinity to them, as well as Croatia_IA, but they are still to the direct "west: of Central and Southern Italy. In fact, together, both Italy_IA_Republic, and IA Apulia span the Italian peninsula, genetically form North to South, however, they are to the "West" of the modern population.Quote:
Originally Posted by torzio
R1 is the one I circled to the east of Italy_IA_Republic, it is considered a so-called outlier here.
In fact, some of the more southern IA apulian samples would fit right in with the so-call Latin outlier, R437.
https://i.imgur.com/CDyp1pS.png
Checking the citation here 22 and 24, it is clear that Levant (Sea People) was reference to the Philistine ASH068, who clusters with Mycenaeans, as well as some of the more southernly IA_Apulians.Quote:
257 The new genomic sequences Daunian samples reveal that Iron Age (pre-Imperial)
258 Southern Italy (Apulia) can be placed within a Pan-Mediterranean genetic continuum that stretches
from Crete (Minoans25) and the Levant (Sea People22,24 259 ) to the Republican Rome and the Iberian
Peninsula6
260 , mainly composed by AN and IN/CHG genetic features with the addition of WHG and
261 Steppe-related influences in Continental Italy. P
This is basically what I am saying above. The Apulian_IA is between the IA_Latins & Etruscans, Minoans, Philistines, etc. Which is genetically "west" of modern Italy from North to South. This is what is meant by "Pan-Mediterranean genetic continuum"
thanksQuote:
Originally Posted by Jovialis
The paper does say
we know that they were
mainly farmers, animal breeders, horsemen and maritime traders with an established trade network
extending across the sea with Illyrian tribes8–10. A fascinating aspect of this population, as opposed
to their neighbours in Apulia, was their tenacious resistance to external influences. For instance,
they did not acquire either social or cultural Hellenic elements and no Greek alphabet inscriptions
We extracted DNA from 34 human skeletal remains
sequencing runs were merged resulting in 16 individuals for genome-wide analysis:
Out of those 16 individuals,we selected 10 individuals based on their proximity within the
principal component analysis (PCA) space (Figure1C) for radiocarbon dating and estimated their
age between 1157 and 275 calBCE with a median date of 521 calBCE
.............................
Here I circled the location of R437 and R850, the two Latin "outliers".
R437 plots right next to the IA Apulian ORDO01
https://i.imgur.com/bgGHqFW.png
as of 2 years ago Israeli archeologists state Philistines originate from Eastern Crete ................they are not from the LevantQuote:
Originally Posted by Jovialis
this paper says
A fascinating aspect of this population, as opposed
to their neighbours in Apulia, was their tenacious resistance to external influences. For instance,
they did not acquire either social or cultural Hellenic elements and no Greek alphabet inscriptions
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jovialis
is VK538 .....from Foggia ...L1a13ba Ydna close to any of these?
https://i.imgur.com/LjOgNZQ.png
Here are the Imperial samples used in the PCA. The clear overlap of modern Apulia with C6, is evident. Considering, R437 another Iron Age sample, clusters closely with ORD001, reasserts the notion that this kind of ancestry existed in Italy prior to the arrival of Imperial era immigrants.
Indeed, ASH068 was the only true Philistine (Sea People), who clustered with Myceneans. The others were hybrids, or subjugated Levantines.Quote:
Originally Posted by torzio
https://i.imgur.com/4nL6aDE.pngQuote:
Originally Posted by Jovialis
Considering that they resisted outside influences also makes me wonder if the Imperial era C6 cohort was more representative of the neighboring people. Once the Romans came in, these Daunians were probably mixed out of existence by other native people and Greek colonists, who were representative of C6.