Italy - GOES BUST!

Today Italian yield on 10-year government bonds went over 7%.

7% is regarded as the line after which a country can no longer afford to service it's debts.

Can the EU afford to bailout Italy now, what cost has Italian pantomine political culture cost Europe?
Are we looking at the end of the EU and a period of political and economic meltdown?

Spain's yield will now go up as France's is already moving up, Spain will be bust before Christmas guaranteed. Banks will be falling like donimos as countries default on their debts, is inevitable depression ahead for Europe?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15652708

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/1...7A83AK20111109

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/b...usconi-resigns

Frankly, I already saw it coming. There is no other alternative than going back to the old national currencies. But as joining the Euro is irrevocable, this can only be done by leaving the European Union.

In very far future I could imagine a restart with something like a "Northern European Union" including Germany, Austria, Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden and Finland, and a "Southern European Union" including, well... whatever! UK will probably have learned enough not to join neither nor.


Edit: Typical sentences that you will hear in about 50 years from people like us when asked by our grandchildren:

"We had no other choice, dear!"
"I was in the resistance right from the beginning!"
"We didn't know anything!"
"You don't know how good you have it today, sweety!"
"Well actually, not everything was bad..."

Hard to see where we go from here?
People are waiting for the ECB to step in but as I understand its currently illegal under the existing EU law.
Also the German government has up to now resisted the ECB stepping in as its basically German tax payers underwriting Italian government spending.

If it is a break up as you suggest then we are looking at defaults, meaning banks going bust all over, pensions disappearing desposits lost. Recession quite likely a depression, we can already see the increase of violence around the world since the 2008 financial collapse. I wouldn't rules out serious civil break-down.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by edao

Hard to see where we go from here?
People are waiting for the ECB to step in but as I understand its currently illegal under the existing EU law.
Also the German government has up to now resisted the ECB stepping in as its basically German tax payers underwriting Italian government spending.

If it is a break up as you suggest then we are looking at defaults, meaning banks going bust all over, pensions disappearing desposits lost. Recession quite likely a depression, we can already see the increase of violence around the world since the 2008 financial collapse. I wouldn't rules out serious civil break-down.

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Just to inform you
Europe has problem of cash

I was reading parts of a Banking report in Greece
from 2008 600 Billion E where redrowed from Banks
the majorit moved to other states,
but the last year people take them and not deposit somewhere
the month August in Greece 60 bill mainly middle class money deposits were taken from the Banks with out deposit somewhere,

same is in Europe,
seems like Indignados are revenging the Bankers and the states,
Problem will grow bigger since in 2-3 months the ECB must cut currency cause the existed will not be in circulation , or plastic money will run the market,

the more the people redrow their deposits, the more the money vultures feeling their death,

Economists say italy can stustain a spred superior also to 8-9%, but i have my doubts we will bust too, because the leftist parties and pdl traitors today reached their mission: the government fall, and berlusconi dimissions, which will highen the spred maybe up to 9%... in this case we and the other euro nations can thank italy communists... as always they want the worst for italy... they don't have the mind to understand our situation.

people in italy and surprisingly in other eu nations like to bash Berlusconi... yet i have to see what the left is capable off... i bet that if lefts win wi will plunge more and more.. they even understand less about economy... for sure the will high taxes, instead of cutting public spending, and public work...

one we can thanks is this dickhead, and shitman
Fini
the first traitor, that wanted the governemt to fall
he sits in the italian parlament since 1983...28 YEARS.. and guess what he has never worked for real in real life... What does he represent for italians?... he wants to tell us we have to work, but he never really worked.
There are many like him in the italian parlament, people who sits there since 30 years and more ago.. people who never worked... the shit of society that represent us...
http://gaetanosaya.org/wp-content/up...OCAINOMANE.jpg

Exclusive: French, Germans explore idea of core euro zone

"French President Nicolas Sarkozy gave some flavour of his thinking during an address to students in the eastern French city of Strasbourg on Tuesday, when he said a two-speed Europe -- the euro zone moving ahead more rapidly than all 27 countries in the EU -- was the only model for the future."

Looks like a plan is already in place to break up the euro!

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...7A85VV20111109

Interest rates required for interest payments to reach 20% of government revenues in 2015

Attachment 5335
source: guardian

According to that chart Italy threshold is just under 8%. But you have to wonder what is going to bring the interest rate back down, another crisis summit. Papend**ckhead showed everyone how pointless they are.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by edao

Exclusive: French, Germans explore idea of core euro zone

"French President Nicolas Sarkozy gave some flavour of his thinking during an address to students in the eastern French city of Strasbourg on Tuesday, when he said a two-speed Europe -- the euro zone moving ahead more rapidly than all 27 countries in the EU -- was the only model for the future."

Looks like a plan is already in place to break up the euro!

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...7A85VV20111109

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Well when I was saying that we must kick Germany away from Euro (and maybe France)
and create a more flexible E = 1 $ someones laugh,

that is nothing new
in Greece that solution was proposed 8 months before by PHD's

a currency for Lowlands and Germany and Euro for the rest with France choosing were want to be

Italy's political policies is not like the USA, Italy can change leader without changing the government ( like australia, canada, NZ and others ) , they can place Mr. Alfano as leader ( something the LegaNord want ) of the PDL and then to become leader of Italy.
Mr. Fini is a traitor due to the fact he was fooled by Silvio in merging his party with Silvio and then being a branded a nobody ...........vendetta is an italian word.

The problem with Italy is that Politicians have a say in Government even after they retired from politics ( a say for life) a salary for life.

If LegaNord policy of Fiscal Federalism ( regions manager their own monies, same as Australia and USA to name a few )was implemented , all these problems would not happen.

These are seriously scary times.

The idea of a "2 speed" Europe existed 20 years ago, when leaders knew most southern countries would not keep up the pace of northern European countries growth. But because the left was in charge everywhere, it was discarded as a discriminative measure and a pact of solidarity was agreed for all members. We now pay the bill for the lack of balls of these leaders. Thanks to them and their politically correct "Fantasyland" vision, this beautiful idea, a common Europe where we can all travel and work an be free, is hitting the wall...
We had a chance to fix the problem in 2008 after the first recession started, nothing has been done, now we all sink together, but it is not as the taxpayer had a chance to vote and inverse the gravity that pulls us straight into the abyss...

You have to wonder how moronic the Italian politicians are?

"Italy's cost of borrowing has risen again to the 7% danger level, putting the new PM Mario Monti under pressure as he tries to form a government." source

What don't they get about the fact that they are on the verge of going bankrupt? They are going to spend all week in a power struggle over the make-up of the interim government!?!? This should have been sorted out last week! I thought on Sunday Belusconi was leaving political life but instead he remains party leader and is mearly stepping down as PM. What is it going to take to get the message to these people that its game over...

Just got The Economist this morning, the editorial is pretty rotten, they're settling scores with Berlusconi, but more important, they reckon the payment rates are unsustainable and Italy will go down, just a matter of time. They also hint at a scission of the Eurozone more or less as I described it in my previous post. The French PM announced new austerity measures (bet on street demonstrations, French national pastime...) cause "France has been overspending for 30 years".
Seems the party is over and the guests have to pay their bill. The coming years will have that heavy hangover feeling...

It seems things have to get worse before they can get better. The politicians are trying to let the air of of the balloon slowly but it just keeps getting bigger and bigger, it's getting close to popping. Reuters has claimed another 4 week deadline before the pop, another EZ summit maybe:rolleyes2:?

I find it hard to listen to people related to the financial industry they are remarkably cynical about everything, they predict the collapse of society every hour of every day. They have been betting on the collapse of the Euro for decades, still they may be proven right... I'm sure it won't be the last EZ crisis meeting we'll see.

Latest news out of Italy is that the northern regions will not pay more than 26% of the debt of Italy, as this is their share of the burden. If they are forced to pay more, then a push for seccession from Italy based on what Czechoslavakia got granted ( similar austerity issue) , will be enacted.
The wait is on Lombardy province as all the rest of the northern regions have agreed.

The term Padania, some say facricated, same say historical , means people from the Po ( river) areas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padania

http://www.euronews.net/2011/12/04/i...divorce-again/

There are far more articles in Italian which I d not thinkis needed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zanipolo

Latest news out of Italy is that the northern regions will not pay more than 26% of the debt of Italy, as this is their share of the burden. If they are forced to pay more, then a push for seccession from Italy based on what Czechoslavakia got granted ( similar austerity issue) , will be enacted.
The wait is on Lombardy province as all the rest of the northern regions have agreed.

The term Padania, some say facricated, same say historical , means people from the Po ( river) areas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padania

http://www.euronews.net/2011/12/04/i...divorce-again/

There are far more articles in Italian which I d not thinkis needed.

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It looks like the Po river has changed its flow to a bit more southwards cause Lega Nord claims this territory:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ap_Padania.png

Bankrupt companies not countries.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Franco

It looks like the Po river has changed its flow to a bit more southwards cause Lega Nord claims this territory:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ap_Padania.png

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as long as Rome is not included, it looks good

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zanipolo

as long as Rome is not included, it looks good

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Indeed those claimed by lega nord are all the efficient and productive regions of italy, those with troubles (mafia, non existing industrialization and low employment) are unwanted

THey are not actually able to gather enough votes for seccession, are they?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by clark85

THey are not actually able to gather enough votes for seccession, are they?

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rumour is that Brussles and the EU want the northern italian regions in Europe , but not all of Italy. Brussels has asked for an "ambassador" from Padania to visit. The rumour is that Tremonti will go

What I have found interesting is that at the start of January borrowing costs for Italy and Spain fell, then almost immediately followed the down grade from the rating agency. The rating agencies are financed by the large investment banks and it is not in the interest of the investment banks for government to get low low interest rates on bond sales, record high borrowing costs are good news for banks and investors (just means more return for their money). Nothing like raiding the public purse.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zanipolo

rumour is that Brussles and the EU want the northern italian regions in Europe , but not all of Italy. Brussels has asked for an "ambassador" from Padania to visit. The rumour is that Tremonti will go

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This is an absurdity if true. Lega Nord complain about Southern wastes, they say they are an "anti-system"-party, while they have been in the government for years wasting a lot of public money, encouraging familiarism and clientelism more than (almost) any other party (just look at Bossi's son, called "the Trout" for his stupidity. And he works in the regional council of Lombardia). All in all starting to claim "Padania"'s independence again, since they are no more in the government. Everybody in Italy should notice what LN really is, some people started to do so, other people still believe in them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by julia90

Economists say italy can stustain a spred superior also to 8-9%, but i have my doubts we will bust too, because the leftist parties and pdl traitors today reached their mission: the government fall, and berlusconi dimissions, which will highen the spred maybe up to 9%... in this case we and the other euro nations can thank italy communists... as always they want the worst for italy... they don't have the mind to understand our situation.

people in italy and surprisingly in other eu nations like to bash Berlusconi... yet i have to see what the left is capable off... i bet that if lefts win wi will plunge more and more.. they even understand less about economy... for sure the will high taxes, instead of cutting public spending, and public work...

one we can thanks is this dickhead, and shitman
Fini
the first traitor, that wanted the governemt to fall
he sits in the italian parlament since 1983...28 YEARS.. and guess what he has never worked for real in real life... What does he represent for italians?... he wants to tell us we have to work, but he never really worked.
There are many like him in the italian parlament, people who sits there since 30 years and more ago.. people who never worked... the shit of society that represent us...
http://gaetanosaya.org/wp-content/up...OCAINOMANE.jpg

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The ex government like a victim...Sorry but this is a totally partisan analysis Julia, just to specify that this doesn't coincide with the opinion of many many many Italians.

You have to wonder if there isn't a conflict of interest in drawing a line under the bailout of Italy and Spain. Any money to be brought to the table is likely to come from Germany, but with borrowing costs rocketing for countires like Italy and Spain, investors are flocking to perceived safer bonds of Germany and the UK, this inturn is a great deal for Germany as they get to finance the country at record low levels of interest. Resolving the ongoing crisis would only make Germany's borrowing more expensive if the investor felt safe about Italy and Spain. Obviously a default would be a bit of a headache, but allowing the alarm bells to ring (keeping German borrowing cost low) and then stepping in every 6 months with a pantomine EU intervention to announce measures that already exist (stoping a crisis turing into a disaster). Seems to be working quite well so far in Germany's favour.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by edao

You have to wonder if there isn't a conflict of interest in drawing a line under the bailout of Italy and Spain. Any money to be brought to the table is likely to come from Germany, but with borrowing costs rocketing for countires like Italy and Spain, investors are flocking to perceived safer bonds of Germany and the UK, this inturn is a great deal for Germany as they get to finance the country at record low levels of interest. Resolving the ongoing crisis would only make Germany's borrowing more expensive if the investor felt safe about Italy and Spain. Obviously a default would be a bit of a headache, but allowing the alarm bells to ring (keeping German borrowing cost low) and then stepping in every 6 months with a pantomine EU intervention to announce measures that already exist (stoping a crisis turing into a disaster). Seems to be working quite well so far in Germany's favour.

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I read somewhere that South Tyrol is about to Buy its Independence.
lets see. my personal feeling is that fiscal Union will not be in whole Europe, or Europe will collapse under the dictatorship of bankers,