The genomic history of the Aegean palatial civilizations.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Angela

I never said anything like that. I think there is a possibility that there was an error in the determination of ancestral versus derived snps or in the inputting of the data into the algorithm.

The only way to find out is to ask.

Anyway, as the pictures from the Hirisplex site shows, dark is not very dark, and even if the prediction was "very dark" some gradations in the skin sample don't look that dark to me.

---

I'll try to contact the authors and hope they'll reply. But how likely is it, that professional genetics/researchers make a mistake in the determination of ancestral versus derived snps or in the inputting of the data into the algorithm? This paper was peer reviewed. The authors's claim though, that modern Greeks descend up to 90% from these steppe-admixed samples, is false. In addition to that, most people who read genetic studies don't look up the supplementary data, tables or the Hirisplex site, etc. Hence, what will stuck is that Ancient Greeks were very dark or black, and people will not think of Hirisplex very dark to black category, but they'll believe that Ancient Greeks looked like SSAs in terms of their complexion.

(…)
Finally, SNPs SLC24A5 rs1426654 and SLC45A2 rs16891982 were associated with fair skin, eyes, and hair and with melanoma. SLC24A5 rs1426654 (p.Thr111Ala) was first described in zebrafish as responsible for the golden phenotype due to a delay in melanin production during embryonic development [34]. In melanocyte cultures, homozygous GG leads to an increase in SLC24A5 gene transcripts and a consequent increase in tyrosinase activity and melanin production [35]. The decrease of G allele frequency is gradual from Africa to Europe, indicating that a selection pressure in favor of the A allele acted on the determination of fair skin in places where the intensity of UV radiation is lower [36, 37]. Evidence of natural selection makes this SNP a frequent component of ancestral and forensic informative panels [38]. In our study, we confirmed the association of the AA genotype with fair skin and light eyes. and we identified allelic frequencies consistent with those observed in European populations [3] and in previous studies of Brazilians from other regions [39]. Likewise, SNP SLC45A2 rs16891982 is also widely studied regarding its relationship with ***mentation in different populations. SLC45A2 encodes the membrane-associated transporter protein carrier involved in melanin synthesis, and experimental studies in zebrafish. Mice and yeast have clearly demonstrated that the presence of the missense variant rs16891982 (p.Phe374Leu) results in decreased protein activity [40]. This SNP is also considered an ancestry informative marker (AIM), since it is able to differentiate European populations due to G allele frequency. Which is similar to the rs1426654 A allele [41]. These findings are aligned with the theory of vitamin D synthesis. Which proposes that light skin is a feature selected to compensate for the lower solar incidence in populations living far from the Equator [42] and with increased ability of the skin to respond to ultra violet (UV) radiation [43].
(…)

This is an extract from these paper:

• Research article
• Open Access
• Published: 09 November 2020

Skin ***mentation polymorphisms associated with increased risk of melanoma in a case-control sample from southern Brazil

• Larissa B. Reis,
• Renato M. Bakos,
• […]
• Patricia Ashton-ProllaBMC Cancer volume 20, Article number: 1069 (2020)Cite this article
  
  
  • 603 Accesses
    
  • Metrics details
  
  
  Abstract
  
  Background
  
  Melanoma is the most aggressive type of skin cancer and is associated with environmental and genetic risk factors. It originates in melanocytes, the ***ment-producing cells. Single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) in ***mentation genes have been described in melanoma risk modulation, but knowledge in the field is still limited.
  Methods
  
  In a case-control approach (107 cases and 119 controls), we investigated the effect of four ***mentation gene SNPs (TYR rs1126809, HERC2 rs1129038, SLC24A5 rs1426654, and SLC45A2 rs16891982) on melanoma risk in individuals from southern Brazil using a multivariate logistic regression model and multifactor dimensionality reduction (MDR) analysis.
  Results
  
  Two SNPs were associated with an increased risk of melanoma in a dominant model: rs1129038AA and rs1426654AA [OR = 2.094 (95% CI: 1.106–3.966), P = 2.3 10− 2 and OR = 7.126 (95% CI: 1.873–27.110), P = 4.0 10− 3, respectively]. SNP rs16891982CC was associated with a lower risk to melanoma development in a log-additive model when the allele C was inherited [OR = 0.081 (95% CI: 0.008–0.782), P = 3 10− 2]. In addition, MDR analysis showed that the combination of the rs1426654AA and rs16891982GG genotypes was associated with a higher risk for melanoma (P = 3 10− 3), with a redundant effect.
  Conclusions
  
  These results contribute to the current knowledge and indicate that epistatic interaction of these SNPs, with an additive or correlational effect, may be involved in modulating the risk of melanoma in individuals from a geographic region with a high incidence of the disease.
  
  
  
  

PS:
I usually look white in the day-by-day of my homeland, but when I stay in Rio de Janeiro for about 2 weeks I return to my homeland in BH with the color of a Tuareg. My wife and son are unable to achieve this feat (stay tanned). They turn pink and have to use a daily sun blocker ‘protection factor 50+. The family dermatologist, Dr. Ana, always tells me that I should do the same, but my answer to her is always the same: Showing her my forearm, I tell her that there is no need because I am not white. This is the moment when she tells me to take my shirt off and She takes the chance to reprimand me in a short sermon. Than, I remember Mr. Michael Jackson. Black or White. In my case, none of the two cases, I think.

Me:

Gene SLC45A2

rs16891982

CG

Gene SLC24A5

rs1426654

AA

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gaska

Does anybody have any explanation for the absence of R1b-M269 in Greece (Neolithic, Chalcolithic or Bronze Age) and yet Greek is an Indo-European language?

---

Well both of the Middle Bronze Age samples were women, and we only have one male sample from the Mycenaean period. So that's not much to go on.

i am going to tell something
this is a leak .....
r1b was found in early bronze age north albania (i saw it in serbian dna forum )
i don't know the details when i will know more i will post it ...
2 samples from bronze age north albania :
early bronze age r1b
middle bronze age j2b


Добио сам прелиминарне резултате једног истраживања старе ДНК на простору Албаније. Немам детаљнијих информација (лабораторија, датум објављивања студије и сл). Зна се само да је прва тура са севера Албаније, док ће друга бити са југа.

Неки од резултата

Северна Албанија, Рано бронзано доба: R1b-PF7563

Северна Албанија, Средње бронзано доба/Касно бронзано доба: J2b2-M241



I received preliminary results from an old DNA study in Albania. I do not have more detailed information (laboratory, date of publication of the study, etc.). It is only known that the first tour is from the north of Albania, while the second will be from the south.


Some of the results


Northern Albania, Early Bronze Age: R1b-PF7563


Northern Albania, Middle Bronze Age / Late Bronze Age: J2b2-M241

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kingjohn

i am going to tell something
this is a leak .....
r1b was found in early bronze age north albania (i saw it in serbian dna forum )
i don't know the details when i will know more i will post it ...
2 samples from bronze age north albania :
early bronze age r1b
middle bronze age j2b


Добио сам прелиминарне резултате једног истраживања старе ДНК на простору Албаније. Немам детаљнијих информација (лабораторија, датум објављивања студије и сл). Зна се само да је прва тура са севера Албаније, док ће друга бити са југа.

Неки од резултата

Северна Албанија, Рано бронзано доба: R1b-PF7563

Северна Албанија, Средње бронзано доба/Касно бронзано доба: J2b2-M241



I received preliminary results from an old DNA study in Albania. I do not have more detailed information (laboratory, date of publication of the study, etc.). It is only known that the first tour is from the north of Albania, while the second will be from the south.


Some of the results


Northern Albania, Early Bronze Age: R1b-PF7563


Northern Albania, Middle Bronze Age / Late Bronze Age: J2b2-M241

---

Thanks for sharing.

R1b-PF7563 https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-PF7563/


J2b2-M241 https://yfull.com/tree/J-M241/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Philjames100

Well both of the Middle Bronze Age samples were women, and we only have one male sample from the Mycenaean period. So that's not much to go on.

---

We already have many samples from the Greek Neolithic and at the moment R1b-M269 (both R1b-Z2103 and L51 are missing). Regarding the chalcolithic and the bronze age we have some samples and there is no R1b-M269.

Pta08 (2.735 BC)-Petras, Crete-Minoan Culture-EBA-HapY-G2a2b-L30-Mit-H
Kou01 (2.407 BC)-Koufonisi, Greece, Cycladic-EBA-HapY-J2a1a-L26-Mit-K1a2/c
I9130 (2.400 BC)-Moni Odigitria, Heraklion, Crete-HapY-G2a2b/2-Mit-U3b3
I0070 (1.850 BC)-Hagios Charambolos Cave, Lasithi, Crete-HapY-J2a1d-Mit-H13a1
I0073 (1.850 BC)-Hagios Charambolos Cave, Lasithi, Crete- HapY-J2a1-Mit-H
I9041 (1.450 BC)-Galatas Apatheia, Mycenean Culture-HapY-J2a1a-Z6057-Mit-X2-

Anatolia,

MA2212 (2.500 BC)- Ovaören-Topakhöyük HapY-J2a-M410-Mit-W5
MA2205 (1.875 BC)- Kaman-Kalehöyük-HapY-J2a1-L26-Mit-J2b1
MA2208-09 (1.875 BC)- Kaman-Kalehöyük-HapY-G2a2b/1-G-M406-Mit-H6a1/b2e
MA2200-01 (1.625 BC)- Kaman-Kalehöyü[email protected]

It is true that we do not have many samples, but they could be enough to give us an idea of ​​what is happening because we have the two regions where the first written IE languages ​​(Greek and Hittite) have been found linked to a J2a and not r1b-M269. Perhaps the steppe theory as explained by Harvard is wrong? Maybe some other male marker participated? Maybe the origin of IE is not in the steppes?

Of course I do not have the solution and since my mother tongue is not Indo-European It is not a matter that worries me much, but while those prestigious researchers could not prove the link of R1b-M269 (whatever the subclade involved) with the different IE languages, I I will always think that at the moment it is only a fairy tale.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Angela

I have no idea why you are fixated on two rare mummies compared to all the others, and not to the way the Egyptians depicted themselves. It's illogical. You don't make judgments about an entire population based on 5%, if even that, of the samples.

If you want to make a big deal of it, it's your prerogative. Imo it is completely illogical and I will not discuss it further.

As for the skin tone of Italians, I have every skin de***mentation allele in the book, and as a result am predicted to be very fair. It's true; can't tan, burn, get sun poisoning, have to wear the lightest skin foundation on the market.

THAT is NOT common even in my part of Italy, far less so in the south. Southern Italians very, very rarely have "pink" undertones. A large percentage have olive undertones, as I showed above, even if they're much "fairer" in the winter.

ONE factor, among others, is that there hasn't been a total sweep for derived SLC45A2 yet.
Ihttps://i.imgur.com/1kLElNh.png

https://i.imgur.com/ktUe5fx.png

This all bears out my experience of these people. I've seen some quite dark Portuguese for example.

Keep in mind, however, that this is one snp, not the multiple snps used in the subject paper. OCA2, for example, which is not that common in Southern Europe, affects skin as well as eye color.

Thracians were not Greeks. Period. The ***mentation of one is not the ***mentation of others.

---

Actually it is the first time I reply in this thread, and because I had the impression that there is some mistaken, vague idea about southern Europeans' ***mentation from the part of a user from Germany, which is comprehensible because I've noticed online that the "seasonability" of our skin tone can confuse some people that usually don't experience such variability. I've seen it even from scholars from America that interpreted some characters, Odysseus himself and Eurybates, from the Odissey as "black" because the word used to describe their skin is "μελανόχροος", which in my Italian version is translated as "bruno", an adjective meaning "brown" but when used to refer to persons' skin means "leathery tanned", presumably because those scholars had in mind their social realities, that is attaching "fair-skinned" to northwest Europeans and "dark-skinned" to afro-americans, while both adjectives attached to Greeks would mean more something close "on the lighter type of spectrum" and "tanned" in most cases, at least if referred to men. Also, call it a reason by analogy, but I hold that the evidence so far makes it the most plausible opinion to hold that Thracians' ***mentation would have been the same as that of the Greeks.

Unfortunately, the thing with talking about skin tone is that the terms are very vague, so here it is how I use them: by "pinkish" I refer to a skin that is naturally, when untanned, like that of Federica Lazzara's, miss Sicilia, and virtually it is the same skin I've seen in all the women I've seen in my life, and given I've always lived in Sicily, I think I am in a good position to make the statement. The undertone is something different from the tone or ***mentation, which is what I referred to (in the chart it would be between "pale" and "intermediate", as the majority of Sardinians themselves resulted[P.S. "as the majority of Sardinians..." refers to "intermediate"]), and I would mean by "olive skin" a tone that is brown/light-brown untanned
.https://external-content.duckduckgo....jpg&f=1&nofb=1
Returning to the point of discussion, I agree that it is pointless to talk about it because the two plausible options are that either the analysis is wrong or if genuine it would mean that light skin was being under selection during that period, and there's no way one could add anything of meaning to settle the question.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kingjohn

i am going to tell something
this is a leak .....
r1b was found in early bronze age north albania (i saw it in serbian dna forum )
i don't know the details when i will know more i will post it ...
2 samples from bronze age north albania :
early bronze age r1b
middle bronze age j2b


Добио сам прелиминарне резултате једног истраживања старе ДНК на простору Албаније. Немам детаљнијих информација (лабораторија, датум објављивања студије и сл). Зна се само да је прва тура са севера Албаније, док ће друга бити са југа.

Неки од резултата

Северна Албанија, Рано бронзано доба: R1b-PF7563

Северна Албанија, Средње бронзано доба/Касно бронзано доба: J2b2-M241



I received preliminary results from an old DNA study in Albania. I do not have more detailed information (laboratory, date of publication of the study, etc.). It is only known that the first tour is from the north of Albania, while the second will be from the south.


Some of the results


Northern Albania, Early Bronze Age: R1b-PF7563


Northern Albania, Middle Bronze Age / Late Bronze Age: J2b2-M241

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gjergj

The Rrenjet Project in fact has over 1,100 results thus far :) and around 800 of them are exclusively members only at Rrenjet and processed in companies FTDNA, YSEQ and Dantelabs. A similar database is also being put together of Mitochondrial lines in Albania, its only around 150 results thus far.
It seems that people are giving opinion on the origin of Albanians without basing their arguments on actual data.
Albanians have very good diversity of both E-v13, J2b2 and R1b-PF7563. It is clear based on the data that there is a continuation of bronze and IA male lines despite the fact that there is a strong genetic bottleneck that fits with the fall of the roman empire and slavic migration to the balkans.
There are now two projects from the Albanian archeologists in partnership with western counterparts on testing ancient remains from archeological sites in Albania. Preliminary results from one of these projects confirm this bronze age continuity for PF7563 and J2b2. Later this year or next year they will publish results.

---

Bit unfair you attributing this leak to a Serbian forum when Gjergj posted this 1-2 weeks ago in a thread that you commented yourself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gaska

We already have many samples from the Greek Neolithic and at the moment R1b-M269 (both R1b-Z2103 and L51 are missing). Regarding the chalcolithic and the bronze age we have some samples and there is no R1b-M269.

Pta08 (2.735 BC)-Petras, Crete-Minoan Culture-EBA-HapY-G2a2b-L30-Mit-H
Kou01 (2.407 BC)-Koufonisi, Greece, Cycladic-EBA-HapY-J2a1a-L26-Mit-K1a2/c
I9130 (2.400 BC)-Moni Odigitria, Heraklion, Crete-HapY-G2a2b/2-Mit-U3b3
I0070 (1.850 BC)-Hagios Charambolos Cave, Lasithi, Crete-HapY-J2a1d-Mit-H13a1
I0073 (1.850 BC)-Hagios Charambolos Cave, Lasithi, Crete- HapY-J2a1-Mit-H
I9041 (1.450 BC)-Galatas Apatheia, Mycenean Culture-HapY-J2a1a-Z6057-Mit-X2-

---

I don't know anyone who's arguing that Greek speakers arrived in the Neolithic with R1b-M269, or that the Minoans were R1b-M269-carrying Indo-Europeans, so what you posted isn't really relevant.

The main theories as far as I'm aware are that Greek speakers arrived c.2200-2000 BC or c.1700 BC.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Archetype0ne

Bit unfair you attributing this leak to a Serbian forum when Gjergj posted this 1-2 weeks ago in a thread that you commented yourself.

---

Sorry do you forgive me .
....
I guess i didnt thought they are the same results
That 2 different persons from 2 different forums talk about ( albanian and a serb )


P.s
Do you think e-v13 will be found in bronze age south albania ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kingjohn

Sorry do you forgive me .
....
I guess i didnt thought they are the same results
That 2 different persons from 2 different forums talk about ( albanian and a serb )
P.s
Do you think e-v13 will be found in bronze age south albania ?

---

No need for apology. I just found it confusing cause I remembered you were in that thread :laughing::embarassed:.

I do not know to be honest about V13. For one, Gjergj did not mention it along the R1b and J2b2 in the comment I quoted, so who knows(?). But also Gjergj mentioned two sites, so maybe even if it is not found in this one, there is a chance it is found in the other.

Either way, it would be really surprising if V-13 is not found in Albania in that period. Considering how widely present it was in Bulgaria based on the leak from the Bulgaria paper, the timing, and how widely spread it is across the whole Balkans.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Archetype0ne

No need for apology. I just found it confusing cause I remembered you were in that thread :laughing::embarassed:.

I do not know to be honest about V13. For one, Gjergj did not mention it along the R1b and J2b2 in the comment I quoted, so who knows(?). But also Gjergj mentioned two sites, so maybe even if it is not found in this one, there is a chance it is found in the other.

Either way, it would be really surprising if V-13 is not found in Albania in that period. Considering how widely present it was in Bulgaria based on the leak from the Bulgaria paper, the timing, and how widely spread it is across the whole Balkans.

---

Yes you are correct, so far E-V13 has not been found in Albania during BA


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by blevins13

Yes you are correct, so far E-V13 has not been found in Albania during BA


Sent from my ****** using Eupedia Forum

---

Is it known or public what is the number of individuals analyzed/being analyzed?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Archetype0ne

Is it known or public what is the number of individuals analyzed/being analyzed?

---

I have no clue how many, I asked Gjergj a week ago, and as far as I remember E-V13 has not been found so far. The bones came from prior escavations of the Albanian Institute of Archeology.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gaska

Autosomically some Mycenaeans from Lazaridis paper can be modeled with some African blood, and this study has shown that there could be migrants or slaves of African origin in the Balkans BA (hence they have reported a case of Mit-L3). Therefore it does not surprise me that some of them cannot be classified as fair skinned, although I believe that other samples will be, because in the Bronze Age the phenotypes in Europe were as varied as they are today. (I have given the example of two cases from the Bronze Age in Iberia, one blonde in Asturias and other with brown hair in Argar culture)- Then we have people with blue eyes or brown eyes all over Europe both in prehistory and today. That is why I have not given too much importance to swarthy Mycenaeans

---

Greeks seemed to have believed there was a movement from Egypt. Herodotus who is more extreme says even that the kings of the Dorians were ''Egyptians".

I had tried to understand how that would work. The most probable scenario is there was a real migration, these people became part of the elites but they where Hyksos related and not Egyptians proper. The trend today is to consider the Hyksos to have been Semetic, which is possible but not necessarily correct.

(If they were Hyksos related the date of potential movements should be around 1550BC, provided that the dates by Egyptologists are correct.)

Either way, in Avaris which was the "seat of the power" of the Hyksos, there have been found artifacts like this fragment of a ''Minoan'' fresco
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...o_avaris_2.png

So, it is also possible there was a back migration of a BA Greek related population and I think that is what Aeschylus in Suppliants implies.

So, any exotic admixture -if real, personally I don't really care- can be explainable that way even.

(I am not talking about earlier samples or any specific samples in particular. I am just stating what is possible based on what Greeks believed about themselves.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou

Greeks seemed to have believed there was a movement from Egypt. Herodotus who is more extreme says even that the kings of the Dorians were ''Egyptians".

I had tried to understand how that would work. The most probable scenario is there was a real migration, these people became part of the elites but they where Hyksos related and not Egyptians proper. The trend today is to consider the Hyksos to have been Semetic, which is possible but not necessarily correct.

(If they were Hyksos related the date of potential movements should be around 1550BC, provided that the dates by Egyptologists are correct.)

Either way, in Avaris which was the "seat of the power" of the Hyksos, there have been found artifacts like this fragment of a ''Minoan'' fresco
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...o_avaris_2.png

So, it is also possible there was a back migration of a BA Greek related population and I think that is what Aeschylus in Suppliants implies.

So, any exotic admixture -if real, personally I don't really care- can be explainable that way even.

(I am not talking about earlier samples or any specific samples in particular. I am just stating what is possible based on what Greeks believed about themselves.)

---

We are not at Dorians yet, data comes before 1,200 BC. For Dorian times I would speculate plenty of E-V13


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Archetype0ne

Wait... Did I miss something? Which one of the samples is African :O ?

---

None of them do, I believe this person is t-rolling, and if he continues, I will be forced to do something about it.

Quote:

---

Other proposed migrations, such as settlement by Egyptian or Phoenician colonists22, are not discernible in our data, as there is no measurable Levantine or African influence in the Minoans and Mycenaeans, thus rejecting the hypothesis that the cultures of the Aegean were seeded by migrants from the old civilizations of these regions.

Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans (harvard.edu)

---

@Gaska, STOP T-ROLLING

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jovialis

None of them do, I believe this person is t-rolling, and if he continues, I will be forced to do something about it.

---

I mean I have seen so much wild stuff in anthropology forums I would not be surprised if he isn't trolling. Probably a bit confused. He is putting a lot of efforts in his posts by looking at it, not sure about the output.

Either way. We can all agree that no one with genuine research mindset would care if these ancient individuals were dark skinned, or even Ethiopian. So no need to be defensive (edit: on his part).
The whole point is discussing the research. And so far we know the paper says they were of dark complexion, but we are not entirely certain how, or convinced, unless the author/s themselves verify what they meant. On the other hand, not sure I saw anything regarding Africa in this? Do not know what he meant by that... Maybe he thinks you need to be African or of that heritage to have dark skin.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Archetype0ne

I mean I have seen much wild stuff in anthropology forums I would not be surprised if he isn't trolling. Probably a bit confused. He is putting a lot of efforts in his posts by looking at it, not sure about the output.

Either way. We can all agree that no one with genuine research mindset would care if these ancient individuals were dark skinned, or even Ethiopian. So no need to be defensive.
The whole point is discussing the research. And so far we know the paper says they were of dark complexion, but we are not entirely certain how, or convinced, unless the author/s themselves verify what they meant. On the other hand, not sure I saw anything regarding Africa in this? So not sure what he meant... Maybe he think you need to be African or of that heritage to have dark skin.

---

Frankly, I don't care, we are not here to spread disinformation. Now, people are either going to read the papers, or they are going to not pontificate nonsense. Also, I don't appreciate you undermining moderation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jovialis

Frankly, I don't care, we are not here to spread disinformation. Now, people are either going to read the papers, or they are going to not pontificate nonsense. Also, I don't appreciate you undermining moderation.

---

Not sure what gave you the impression I undermined anything you said? Just stated that people can get really confused, since I don't think anyone would spend that much energy to t-roll.

Either way... :13:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Archetype0ne

Not sure what gave you the impression I undermined anything you said? Just stated that people can get really confused, since I don't think anyone would spend that much energy to t-roll.

Either way... :13:

---

I've been a moderator on this website for several years now, you haven't seen what I have. You would be surprised the lengths some people go to. Nevertheless, no punitive actions have even been taken yet, unless he continues. At any rate, let us get back on topic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Philjames100

I don't know anyone who's arguing that Greek speakers arrived in the Neolithic with R1b-M269, or that the Minoans were R1b-M269-carrying Indo-Europeans, so what you posted isn't really relevant.

The main theories as far as I'm aware are that Greek speakers arrived c.2200-2000 BC or c.1700 BC.

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Anyway you don't have R1b-M269>L23 in the Bronze Age in Greece either, so either find it, or look for another theory to explain the Indo-European languages in Greece and Anatolia.

Manika is one of the first urban cities of the Early Helladic period (EH) (3,000-2,600 BCE) (Tab. i) in Greece and the Aegean. It is located 5 km to the north of Chalkis on the island of Euboea. The settlement extends to an area of at least 100 acres, though a large portion of this is now submerged under the sea. In 1955, surface reconnaissance in Euboea, Theocharis (1959) confirmed the existence of a small important prehistoric settlement (sector III). The enormous extent of the EH settlement remained unknown till 1982, thus the archaeological site continued to suffer destruction from cultivation

The Manika tombs belong to chamber-tombs consisting of a “dromos” (a corridor) and usually of one chamber, similar to the Mycenaean chamber-tombs

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Originally Posted by Gaska

Anyway you don't have R1b-M269>L23 in the Bronze Age in Greece either, so either find it, or look for another theory to explain the Indo-European languages in Greece and Anatolia.

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Concerning R1b-M269 and related (including lost) subclades they could have had some short of networks, so some subclades could have been expanding and rexpanding over them.
The prescence of L754 in Oman 5500 years ago likely shows that before the timeframe of IE migrations some R1b groups would have existed in Central Asia (the Kelteminar culture could have had R1b imho), or the Persian Golf etc. These groups did not make big demographic impact but that doesn't mean they did not exist. So if someone finds R1b e.g. in the Levant they should consider the possibility that it arrived from the east too (even though the ultimate origin is in Europe Villabruna, Iron Gates, Lepenski Vir etc.). I think, for example, the M269(xL51) sample in Askhelon (ASH 067) had more 'Iran Chalcolithic' related than non R1b samples in the same area. (?) That may point to an arrival from the east, even though in the relevant study they grouped ASH_IA1 samples together and modeled them as 43% ''Minoan".

https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/...ure.png?x26656

So, even if someone finds R1b in Greece during the BA, they should also consider where it came from and where his ancestors were from. Was it Bulgaria, Armenia, Ukraine, Italy, the Levant, Albania? And does the place of origin work? Is it from a subclade that ever existed in the 'steppes' etc?