How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

And the archaeology of Chernyakhiv does not support the theory of Dacian peasant movement into Ukraine. As I mentioned the only such discernible is the appearance and subsequent assimilation of the Lypetsk people (a small minority BTW). The work of Boris Mahomedov (published in 2001) has proved conclusively that the Dacian origin components of Chernyakhiv were principally those of Moldova + the small Lypetsk contribution. In any case one must also remember that the "Goths" in the sense of the denizens of Chernyakhiv, moved out massively in the 5th century, and were replaced by Slavs (who assimilated the meager remnants: this too is traceable archaeologically).

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Piatra Neamt is an isolated city surrounded by mountains.
There are 150 Cucuteni-Tripilye sites in the Neamt county.
The ruins of the large Petrodava are just outside the city.
I think that HG I2a1b came in Ukraine as a later expansion from west.
Because there were endless migrations from the east( Kurgan people, Scythians, Sarmatians, Turkic people) in this area.
And they couldn't have this HG.
Some Dacian peasants could be moved to east and northeast by the Goths after the Sarmatians were defetead(the expansion of Chernyakhov culture).
Later migrations and Kievan Rus state spread this HG.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piatra_Neamț

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why do you not mention that Piatra Neamt means German rock and that it is in county named Neamt = Germans

this is perfectly aligned with my assumption that Germanic Scirii were also I2a-Din people...
last mentions of Scirii are in teritory of Romania....

Here are last known locations where Scirii were mentioned in historical accounts...

year 300 AD
http://www.euratlas.net/history/euro...ntity_3837.jpg
year 400 AD
http://www.euratlas.net/history/euro...ntity_3837.jpg
year 500 AD
http://www.euratlas.net/history/euro...ntity_3837.jpg
http://www.euratlas.net/history/euro...tity_3837.html

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Originally Posted by how yes no 2

why do you not mention that Piatra Neamt means German rock and that it is in county named Neamt = Germans

this is perfectly aligned with my assumption that Germanic Scirii were also I2a-Din people...
last mentions of Scirii are in teritory of Romania....

Here are last known locations where Scirii were mentioned in historical accounts...

year 300 AD
http://www.euratlas.net/history/euro...ntity_3837.jpg
year 400 AD
http://www.euratlas.net/history/euro...ntity_3837.jpg
year 500 AD
http://www.euratlas.net/history/euro...ntity_3837.jpg
http://www.euratlas.net/history/euro...tity_3837.html

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Well' Neamt 'term came from the Teutonic knights who build a fortress in this area.
They would soon leave because Hungarian king who was their master didn't like them anymore.
They settled near the Baltic Sea.
I think that Bastarna and Goths much better candidate for your theory than Scirii.

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Originally Posted by Diurpaneus

Well' Neamt 'term came from the Teutonic knights who build a fortress in this area.They would soon leave because Hungarian king who was their master didn't like them anymore.They settled near the Baltic Sea.

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actually there is no single proof for connection between county name and Teutonic knoights...nor that the Teutonic knoights ever were there...it is how some Romanian historians tried to explain name related to Germans... but its just assumption

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Some Romanian historians, including B. P. Haşdeu consider that Târgu Neamţ was probably a Teutonic settlement from the 13th century, when the Teutonic Order made incursions from Transylvania against the Cumanic peoples that were living in Moldavia..

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%A2...%C5%A3#History

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Originally Posted by Diurpaneus

I think that Bastarna and Goths much better candidate for your theory than Scirii.

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well, Goths were not I2a-din carriers - that is clear from lack of it in the countries they invaded and settled..Scirii are pretty good theory because it is very likely tribal name of same origin as Serians, Zeruiani, Scordisci/Serdi, Shedana (Serbonian bog is a lake in Egypt named after them), Sardinia, Sart and location names such as Sard, Serdica, Serrai/Serres......I2a relates locations of all these people in past...I do not say that modern Serbs origin from Scirii (though it is a thought that should not be completely ignored), I say that tribal name and part of its genetics has same distant roots... I say that tribal name is related originally to I2a people..... and that from part of those people many Serbs and Croats origin....and just one small idea that at first may look far fetched: Note that Scirri are paired with Hirri...same language, adjascent locations...some historians considered that Hirri and Scirri are in fact same tribal name in different dialects..this maps exactly to what we have with Serbs and Croats...related tribes in adjascent teritories and with argued by some interchangable Srb/Hrv root of tribal names... same thing is with Helvetti and Scordisci as related Celtic tribes with adjascent teritories... do not you see a pattern there? it was I2a way of giving tribal names.... besides if all group I haplogroups except I2a-Din are Germanic, and if I2a-Din is estimated by leading researcher to have spread from Germany or north Poland (Germanic land in past), why would not it be logical that I2a-Din was originally Germanic...I have shown elsewhere that there are very strong indications that Serians = Cimmerians and Cimmerians are thought to be Gomer = original tribal name of Germans... so for me this is solid theory...it is only question when did ancestors of modern Serbs split from the rest and were they in historic times before mention in history considered Slavic, Sarmatian, Germanic or Celtic, or perhaps even Turkic.. and genetics will show us that, if there is good will to investigate the issue..

Serians = Cimmerians + Scordisci/Serbi/Shedana (Shardana?)/ and so on... Are you sure of the correlations you seam put between these tribes names ? - No offense but it seam to me alike to the links assumed by someones about the Cimbri and Cymru (Combrogi) - I wait more details about the links between all these names and the time they appeared -
for DNA, I don't see Y-I2a1 having a big weight among fully evolved German cultures and tribes (maybe among some of their far 'pre-proto-ancestors'???)

read , goths in ukraine in link, second post, 2 weeks old

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/

David faux noted the goths as east germanic tribe with R1b3 , picked up I haplotype in scandza and gotland sweden, picked up N1c1 in vistula lands of the venedi and aestii , picked up further I haplotype and R1a1 from the germanic Peucini and Bastanae as they went to the black sea.

Who was eliminated from the "world" as tribes after gothic victories, Scrii, venedi, heruli, aestii, peucini and Bastanae from what I read , and there must be more tribes

Gothic strength lay in incorporated conquered people into their ranks.

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Originally Posted by MOESAN

for DNA, I don't see Y-I2a1 having a big weight among fully evolved German cultures and tribes (maybe among some of their far 'pre-proto-ancestors'???)

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Agreed; the most obviously important I subclades in early Germanic peoples, as evidenced by both diversity patterns and modern frequency distributions, were I1 (all subclades except maybe AS4 and P) and I2a2a (especially Cont). The I2a1 subclade that comes closest to the Germanic peoples is probably I2a1c1-Western, and there may have even been some I2a1b2-Isles... but I don't see I2a1 as important as a whole, and certainly not I2a1b1a, unless we're imagining an unexpected bottleneck of it.

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Originally Posted by sparkey

I'm not so sure. Verenich maps the expansion of I2a-Din-N through Romania and into Bulgaria to the Slavs, which matches his observed diversity cline. Certainly, there is no evidence of a West-to-East cline into Ukraine. Rather, Moldavian I2a-Din-N appears contiguous with, and nearly as diverse as, Ukrainian I2a-Din-N, suggesting an expansion into modern Romania from Ukraine shortly after its initial expansion, which actually does not date back so far.

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"R1a" Thracians also Illyrians , Mycenaean Greeks and Macedonians could carry HG I2a1b(1500BC) from Cucuteni-Tripillye area.
"R1b" Thracians would be those from Cotsofeni and Cernavoda-Ezero cultures.

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Originally Posted by how yes no 2

actually there is no single proof for connection between county name and Teutonic knoights...nor that the Teutonic knoights ever were there...it is how some Romanian historians tried to explain name related to Germans... but its just assumptionhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Târgu_Neamţ#Historywell, Goths were not I2a-din carriers - that is clear from lack of it in the countries they invaded and settled..Scirii are pretty good theory because it is very likely tribal name of same origin as Serians, Zeruiani, Scordisci/Serdi, Shedana (Serbonian bog is a lake in Egypt named after them), Sardinia, Sart and location names such as Sard, Serdica, Serrai/Serres......I2a relates locations of all these people in past...I do not say that modern Serbs origin from Scirii (though it is a thought that should not be completely ignored), I say that tribal name and part of its genetics has same distant roots... I say that tribal name is related originally to I2a people..... and that from part of those people many Serbs and Croats origin....and just one small idea that at first may look far fetched: Note that Scirri are paired with Hirri...same language, adjascent locations...some historians considered that Hirri and Scirri are in fact same tribal name in different dialects..this maps exactly to what we have with Serbs and Croats...related tribes in adjascent teritories and with argued by some interchangable Srb/Hrv root of tribal names... same thing is with Helvetti and Scordisci as related Celtic tribes with adjascent teritories... do not you see a pattern there? it was I2a way of giving tribal names.... besides if all group I haplogroups except I2a-Din are Germanic, and if I2a-Din is estimated by leading researcher to have spread from Germany or north Poland (Germanic land in past), why would not it be logical that I2a-Din was originally Germanic...I have shown elsewhere that there are very strong indications that Serians = Cimmerians and Cimmerians are thought to be Gomer = original tribal name of Germans... so for me this is solid theory...it is only question when did ancestors of modern Serbs split from the rest and were they in historic times before mention in history considered Slavic, Sarmatian, Germanic or Celtic, or perhaps even Turkic.. and genetics will show us that, if there is good will to investigate the issue..

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The Transylvanian Saxons were the craftsmen and merchants of Romania in the Middle Ages.
Targu Neamt(town)=German marketplace.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxons_of_Romania

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Originally Posted by Diurpaneus

The Transylvanian Saxons were the craftsmen and merchants of Romania in the Middle Ages.Targu Neamt(town)=German marketplace.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxons_of_Romania

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so now we do not speak of Teutonic knights, but about Saxon craftman...sure there were settlements of Saxon in Transylvania, but neither Targu Neamt, nor Piatra Neamt are in Transylvania (and btw. Transylvania is by far biggest chunk of Romania)compare mapshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piatra_Neam%C8%9Bhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%A2rgu_Neam%C5%A3http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transylvaniain fact link that you gave provide three maps showing: initial Saxon settlements, remaints in 17th century, and population of counties by nationality in year 1930. Neither of those map have any Saxon or German people in Naemt county

Quote:

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Originally Posted by how yes no 2

so now we do not speak of Teutonic knights, but about Saxon craftman...sure there were settlements of Saxon in Transylvania, but neither Targu Neamt, nor Piatra Neamt are in Transylvania (and btw. Transylvania is by far biggest chunk of Romania)compare mapshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piatra_Neamțhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Târgu_N...Transylvaniain fact link that you gave provide three maps showing: initial Saxon settlements, remaints in 17th century, and population of counties by nationality in year 1930. Neither of those map have any Saxon or German people in Naemt county

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about these 'Saxons' workmen there has been a not too old survey about those who claim saxon origins in Romania - this survey concluded that there DNA was close to Germans but also too Belgian people where Y-I2a1b is not very common (even if a litle more common in Bavaria) - nothing to do with the percentages of Pietra Neamt(ç) -
answering to other people on the topic I say that if we speak about late Goths we are no more speaking about genuine previous germanic people and with so a mixture of winners-loosers I believe it 'll not be too easy to link a precise tribe to a precise ancient HG - furthermore, the lineages of Y-I2a was ancient enough yet around the Carpathians highlands, and could concern Illyrians and other I-E(ized) peoples of the region as well - to attribute a well-defined precise cultural identity to the first bearers of Y-I2 'DIn' can be very hard, i believe...

One thing you guys need always to remember is that I2-Din did not exist before c. 300 BCE (when its first Patriarch was born). And other I2's could not be "converted" to it: they had to be genetically produced. So a lot of theories are just plain impossible if Nordvedt and Verenich are right (and so far no one has proven them not to be.) But since Slavs cannot be demonstrated to have existed as a definable cultural and linguistic community before the very beginning of our era, there is a window of opportunity here. The first I2-Din would not have been a Slav. Nor his daddy. The closest cousins today are West Europeans. Which may or may not be significant. I think it is, but I don't yet quite know how in terms of recorded history and archaeology.

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Originally Posted by razor

One thing you guys need always to remember is that I2-Din did not exist before c. 300 BCE (when its first Patriarch was born). And other I2's could not be "converted" to it: they had to be genetically produced. So a lot of theories are just plain impossible if Nordvedt and Verenich are right (and so far no one has proven them not to be.) But since Slavs cannot be demonstrated to have existed as a definable cultural and linguistic community before the very beginning of our era, there is a window of opportunity here. The first I2-Din would not have been a Slav. Nor his daddy. The closest cousins today are West Europeans. Which may or may not be significant. I think it is, but I don't yet quite know how in terms of recorded history and archaeology.

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your are right in some way (even if I find astonishing enough trusting into so precise results in STRs calculations in a so absolute way)
but: the problems are diverse: and arguments can come to confirm or infirm theories
Slavs are older than their historical coming in sight- I agree it says nothing about their carrying of Y-I2a1b 'Din' neither for nor against (in my mind they was Y-R1a for the most and can have known their final cristallization as Slavs including a lot of Y-I2a1 of previous different origin but living in S-Ukraina
- the presence (a scarce one) of 'cousins' in Western Europe don't prove clearly anything - the great age of their ancestor don't prove they are a long time ago in the regions of their present location (Western Europe) -
- different things: the present day localisation of a HG 'X' (more worth than a HT) >< the place of origin of this HG 'X' >< the population where ONE OF THE carriers of an upstream HG 'Y' underwent the mutation that defines the HG 'X'>< the localisation of this last population - when trying to find out the origin and the process of concretion of a culture we can't exclude the problem of the 'mother' population or 'mother' populationS (HG 'Y')...

said this, which and where is the closest upstream HG (SNP) of I2a1b-'Din' (because I'm not sure to be up-to-date about the very last results about that

thank beforehand

Nordvedt has the relevant SNP's here: http://knordvedt.home.bresnan.net Have a look at his haplogroup I tree.

http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net

Sorry for the typo/

I2a-din southhttp://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=ymaphotspots in south Poland and north Poland match exactly locations of Scirii on this map showing situation at 200 ADhttp://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__...rope-200ad.jpghttp://historyatlas.wikia.com/wiki/Europe

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Originally Posted by how yes no 2

I2a-din southhttp://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=ymaphotspots in south Poland and north Poland match exactly locations of Scirii on this map showing situation at 200 ADhttp://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__...rope-200ad.jpghttp://historyatlas.wikia.com/wiki/Europe

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i went into the link, where exactly does it say this as half the links in the link do not work as well as no mention of scirii

No one really knows where the Sciri were between the time of Pliny's informant (Pliny's work came out in ca. 75 CE we don't know when his informant wrote-- it could have been considerably earlier) and the 5th century. The map is just an arbitrary guess.

some interesting notes on this link below and also the internal links. this is for I2a and others

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/20...23108.full.pdf

While reading some notes in regards to KN and the I2a-din, it was noted by others that KN states that I2a-din originated south of Masuria ( mazoria) ( Poland) and migrated to the balkans, some say taken by Illyrians as there original home was central europe ( the area of hungary, Poland )...........I am speaking of the bronze age.

I know this has been brought up about 20 years ago by kruhe and earlier Kalinnos, but with latest testing, I can see that it might fit the scenario very well. Even if we take Tery Robb scenario it still fits,

The question is where the illyrians neighbours of the east-germanics or where they also germanic ( before germanic was born ).

some later notes on celtic and germanic union has Illyrian words
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...ermany&f=false

Needs more study on the matter

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Originally Posted by zanipolo

some later notes on celtic and germanic union has Illyrian words
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...ermany&f=false

Needs more study on the matter

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This is incorrect. The Celtic word for "iron" is not derived from the PIE word for 'metal' (Latin "aes", Sanskrit "ayas"), but from the PIE word for "blood": Latin "aser", Classical Greek "eas", Armenian "aryun" (արյուն), Hittite "esHar", Latvian "asins", Tocharian "ysar" - all which mean blood. The Celtic name almost certainly derives from the color of iron ore. In Antiquity, the Greeks too had the idea too to name iron ore "blood colored" (the Greek word for blood is "haima"), which is where the term "hematite" (the scientific name of iron ore) comes from.

Also, why should the Hallstatt Culture have been Illyrian, as the book suggests? There is absolutely no evidence of Illyrian place names from the former Hallstatt areas in Antiquity.

some interesting maps here

eliznik/East Europe/History/pre-history

http://www.eliznik.co.uk/

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Originally Posted by zanipolo

some interesting notes on this link below and also the internal links. this is for I2a and others

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/20...23108.full.pdf

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The Treilles samples? Those were I2a1a, of course, which is quite distinct from I2a-Din.

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Originally Posted by zanipolo

While reading some notes in regards to KN and the I2a-din, it was noted by others that KN states that I2a-din originated south of Masuria ( mazoria) ( Poland) and migrated to the balkans, some say taken by Illyrians as there original home was central europe ( the area of hungary, Poland )...........I am speaking of the bronze age.

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You're conflating what KN says with what "others" say, and bringing in something (a Bronze Age expansion) that is chronologically well before what KN suggests is possible. Also, a "South of Poland" origin makes a lot of sense for I2a-Din-S, but probably not as much sense for I2a-Din as a whole, per Verenich's more precise analysis, which places it farther east.

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Originally Posted by zanipolo

Needs more study on the matter

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As always. :good_job:

Ken must be take with great caution for his many mistake.

He has before some SNP placed Ht/STR into 'clade' he 'discover' only to later with new SNP find these are not in any such clade but are different SNP.
Also, Ken makes many claims about predict the age of these clades, and these have fallen to the real science the same way his non-clade falled to science advance.

Only were Ken is useful in truth at all is to mimic and repeat fact about mostly the newest I1 SNP because he make himself informed even before these are released. This is not Ken discovered, but only repeated for the gain of others however.

The claims that Ken discover you cannot often have a long wait until they are shown faulty.

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Originally Posted by how yes no 2

this is perfectly aligned with my assumption that Germanic Scirii were also I2a-Din people...last mentions of Scirii are in teritory of Romania....

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You must answer first what you mean by germanic. There is no question it is proven by ancient DNA that I2 is found in ancient sample in what is today modern 'germany'.

The problem is, there is I2 found in EVERY culture of europe, slav/germ/celt/med.

I2 is not like many other Hg that is some way restrict to one arriving land-conquering people, and its samples in Europe are so old (and not joined by ANY I1) that they may predate of arriving slav/germ/celt/med cultures.

I see very clearly that not one culture or ethnic of europe can claim I2 because it is remnants of a aboriginy that live in europe before these modern culture come in or maybe even exist. Some place like in Balkans they are sheiled by mountain and terrain and more manage to survive, but in places with less protective land or no mountain the I2 aboriginy are mistreate and kill by new cultures who come on to rule over the I2 left in europe.

try to place I2 as being the germ/celt/slav/med is not going to work because they are subjected to all these peoples, and today they are found to some degree among the population of all these peoples they manage to adopt into.

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Originally Posted by sparkey

The Treilles samples? Those were I2a1a, of course, which is quite distinct from I2a-Din.



You're conflating what KN says with what "others" say, and bringing in something (a Bronze Age expansion) that is chronologically well before what KN suggests is possible. Also, a "South of Poland" origin makes a lot of sense for I2a-Din-S, but probably not as much sense for I2a-Din as a whole, per Verenich's more precise analysis, which places it farther east.



As always. :good_job:

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I2a -Din is older than germanic or slavic its older than the Unitice culture in which the illyrians where in the centre of.
Historians tells us, that I2a-din is found south of the Galindian people , these people are west-baltic people of modern masuria.
History also says that the first recorded name of illyrian by Greek historians happened only in the 4th century BC.
History also tells us that Illyrians never came from the east (be it the steppes or anatolia)
History tells us that Alexander the great father, Philip was the first to confront the illyrians.

The only conclusion is that I2a-din came from slovak, hungarian and southern polish area and was brought into the balkans by the Illyrians. prior to this the balkans had E1b in the south and J2 in the north ( I am speaking of the major Haplotype).

What year was I2a - 13000 years BC or earlier?

Q- when did these Sythians and Sarmatians become slavic?