How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

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Originally Posted by sparkey

Not yet. CTS11030 is phyloequivalent to M423 in modern populations, so it's shared by the Isles, Disles, and Dinaric branches. According to Nordtvedt's estimates, CTS11030 is somewhere between 12000 and 20000 years old, while Nordtvedt estimates I2a-Din at closer to 2500 years old.

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Thank you!

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Originally Posted by clintCG

I2a Dinaric is most likely from Slavic or Gothic sources.

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I2a is not Gothic. No serious source considers it.

Of course, Goths can be R1a or R1b (different sources), not only I1. But probability that the Goths were dominantly or significantly I2a carriers is in the minimum.

You can check your hypothetical idea with Sparkey, he is expert for haplogroup I2a.

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Originally Posted by Tomenable

So I1 haplogroup clearly originally migrated into Scandinavia, and not from Scandinavia - contrary to what Garrick suggested.

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I only gave one map for movement of Goths. You can look it:

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Originally Posted by Garrick

In pdf file authors give one of maps where you can track the movement of Goths

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It was only purpose that map (this is not a Stone Age period), you can follow the movement of the Goths from north of Europe to Iberian peninsula.

I had no intention to elaborate movements carriers of I haplogroup in general, and it is not a theme in this post.

Great, keep supporting outdated Paleolithic continuity "trusted sources".
There is more than enough evidence that it is Gothic. Far more enough than Illyrian/Thracian.
Writings of Eupedia administrators were made when Paleolithic continuity theory was popular- but now it is outdated

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Originally Posted by Besa

If i2a is illyrian explain why its lower in Serbia area while peaking in Croatia and bosnia? allot of those tribes were not even illyrians, like the liburnians. there lived illyrians in south serbia too, how come lower i2a there? how come so low i2a around dardania? if its thracian/illyrian? how come so many slavic countries exist and all are high i2a and r1a? but at the same time they have EV-13 and j2?

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There where nearly no illyrians in southern Serbia, Serbia was the home of the Triballi Thracian tribe, they clashed with Auturiates "illyrian " tribe from northern Serbia. The Triballi thracians where one of the major tribes, along with Dacian, Getae , Moesian and Odyssian

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I already showed you the document Albanian-Romanian-Aromanian-Dacian connection, allot of those words are thrako-illyrian too. scroll down, you'll see most words are from dacian/thracian. does south slavic have these connections? These are not coincidence. Both you and garrick are just making excuses. How it of loaned from Romanian? the origin is dacian, that means albanians were neighbors of dacians if they loaned, and we all know thracians and dacians were the same people, living next to related illyrians, in dardania there lived illyrians, thracians, and celts... all majorly kosovar albanian haplogrups, r1b, ev-13, j2...the proto serbs and proto croats is a historical fact recorded even by the Romans. its already been posted. Even most scholars agree Albanian language is either from Illyrian or Thracian-Dacian.

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Albanians came via the southern Carpathian mountains of northern Romania, they fled from the advancement of central asian tribes moving west. The moved into Roman lands ( with the help of the Romans ) and resettled in the mountains of modern Albania...........that is why the Romans never recorded any Albanians in their lands until 150AD............I doubt very much that they where of any great number of people. A very small vocabulary , which is why the albanians have so many Romanain and Latin words.

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Actually genetics say i2adin came to the balkans ca, 2000-1400 years ago with the 2nd slavic immgiration. thats why this thread exists, there is historical proof.. while some insist it's illyrian/Thracian, which its not, or else Albanians would be higher. every other south slavic nation is high i2a and r1a except for Albanians because they fled these immigrations. The romanians and vlachs are high i2a because they came in contact with people around the carpathian mountains carrying i2a, other than that there is not much difference between Albanians and other people, except they less of slavic associated genes.

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who says this?

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Not thracian-dacian not illyrian... you tell me where Albanians came from? Even Albanian mythology is close to thracian and illyrian, and both of these are close to ancient greek, same is Albanian. Same is allot of costumes and culture that Albanians share with ancient greeks. everyone knows illyrians and thracians lived next to greeks.

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look above to previous comment

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Its like you're trying to make up a non-balkanic origin of Albanians when they are more ancient than south slavs, there is a reason why you speak slavic. Albanians have more to do with the balkans. there are two languages today considered ancient balkanic, its albanian and greek.. only connection i see with south slavs is the claim of i2a, and some pyramid in bosnia, probably created by proto-albanians.... so all dacians, thracians, illyrians carried i2a? illyrians only carried i2a? then i2a would be much higher all around balkans, even albanians.. its non existent in Gegs, both i2a and r1a, slavic associated genes, so where did Gegs come from? Mars? Jupiter? some avoided these immigrations, while many were asimilated around montenegro area, where E is high.. Please stop lying to yourself and admit the truth. its highest peak is in croatia and bosnia where proto serbs and croat settled and in carpathian mountains, the spread of i2a across balkans comes from slavic immigrations and the serbian empire.

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Albanians are non-balkanic ..............if they where there at the times of the Romans , the Roman historians would have noted the Albanians. The Romans sent surveys to every part of their empire looking for minerals and noting the populace.

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The split between Gegs and Tosks preceeds the slavic immigrations, so they lived in the same area... meaning they don't have different ''origin''... the higher i2a in some comes from slavic immigrations/Serbian empire.

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One of the groups is ancient macedonian and some are resettled thracian and "illyrian" that fled into the areas, and other group are dardani and some are epirotes. You also will see ancient Dorians who lived in albania in the bronze age and moved into Greece around 1000BC, the dorians of greece formed corinthians or spartans etc etc. The Corinthians retook and re-established themselves in southern albania at the same time they threw the liburnians out of Corfu circa 700BC

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Originally Posted by Tomenable

The map of dispersal of I1 posted by Garrick is already outdated, because we know that I1 was not present in prehistoric Scandinavia.

Already in 2014 it was discovered that I1 was present in Neolithic Central Europe, in LBKT culture (Linear Pottery in Transdanubia):

Check I1 M253 Balatonszemes-Bagódomb [individual BAB6] here: http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/eur...ithicdna.shtml

Map (the place where Neolithic I1 was found is marked as 8 - note that this I1 is about as old as the TMRCA age of I1 haplogroup):

http://s18.postimg.org/f6g88wkvr/LBKT_I1.png

And here is my map showing the distribution of types of Y-DNA discovered so far in Stone Age burials in Europe:

The oldest I1 (and the only one from Stone Ages) comes from that archaeological site of the LBKT culture:

http://s12.postimg.org/c79ohwcjx/R1a_R1b_Russia.png

Eupedia says:



So I1 haplogroup clearly originally migrated into Scandinavia, and not from Scandinavia - contrary to what Garrick suggested.

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I found this map

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...E.kfoCf5XA8Lgw

If I am not mistaken , was a sample in Hungaria a J2 ?

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Originally Posted by Besa

Who are these they are related to? How did they get J2 and E? they differ from Alb because of higher i2a and r1a. my point is Illyrians and Thracians carried EV-13 and J2. proto-Romanians are from Dacians.

I don't really care about your feelings or how you feel about muslims or about man made fairytales.. History is history and it doesn't really change, facts are facts. I'm not calling Albanians - Aromanians or Romanians or vice versa, because there is too much i2a and r1a. The way I see it, Albanians are the surviving Thraco-Illyrians, while Aromanians and Romanians, and greeks are mixed with slavs (Not offending) and you complain about muslims? The Slavs who immigrated, the first wave, killed people, the Serbian empire killed people.... I'm just establishing a linguistical and historical point, about the illyrians, thracians and dacians and their relation to EV-13 and J2. I can see people in this forum have problems, it's like talking to walls.. but hey, you cannot steal history and other peoples identity. I'm not islamic, I'm an atheist. You would convert to if they killed your family, raped women before killing them, made you pay money you don't have: there are more muslims of slavic origin, they split because of different religion, why you think Pomaks exist? Gorani? Bosniak Muslims etc? although maybe Bosniak muslims might of been catholics before.. there are million greek muslims, Albanians didn't really split despite of religion. Christians yugoslav and greek authorities deported muslims to turkey,, because someone converted to islam doesnt mean they were ottoman collaborates, people converted to be left alone. you should study some Albanian history.. ALbanians have dozzens of heroes who fought against ottomans. The ottomans were like islamic state. they killed millions of people. they kidnapped kids, greeks, albanians, serbs, bosniaks, trained them and many of the leaders and soldiers were from these people...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomaks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Muslims
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosniaks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorani
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croat_Muslims
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_Muslims
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_Muslims
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslims_(nationality)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Albania



The same in Kosovo.

You're religious nuts, not everyone cares about man made fairytales.. the way I see it. Christians in the balkans are bigger problem than muslims, who are victims of deportation.

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I already told you that Dacians and Thracians could not have carried E-V13.
This was brought by Neolithic people.
Or another clade of E was brought and E-V13 appeared in Balkans,from E.
As for J2,I think was brought by more people,once by Neolithic farmers but also Thracians carried J2.
Anyway,Thracians should have carried mostly R1A and R1B.
Is quite logic,there is some R1B branch that is at high rates in Albania,in Armenia and also extends in other parts of Europe.
Armenians are also speakers of Satem IE language,so is quite clear those people who brought Albanian,were Satem speakers.
Since Albanian is also Satem language.
That haplogroup is called R1b-L23 (HT35) and is present in significant numbers in Albania,Greece,Romania and so on.
Quite clear that Dacians,Thracians were carrying such HG.
I also think Thracians were not speaking a single language,but a group of languages.
And that were not only R1B-L23 carriers,they also carried R1A clades and so on.
Ancestors of the Slavs should have been also included in the Thracians and got their language after Germanic migrations.
But those who brought today Slavic language moved around 600 AD.
Not possible that at 600 Ad I2-din was not already present in high percentages in Romania and Balkans.
Also,R1A should have already been in Romania and Balkans from Thracians when Slavs moved at 600 AD.
I have no idea why some people believe that I2-din just came,with a migration and that were not more people carrying this HG.
Is very simple,people with I2-din were in the area from before Thracians or Slavs moved,so both these people assimilated I2-din people and carried with them,after.
In Romania plenty of Slavs settled but mostly in the plains.Maybe 90% of the Slavs settled in the plains,maybe even more. Slavic speakers were not pastoralists,but were practicing agriculture and raising pigs.
Let me give another clear thing,about how many Slavs settled in Romania,we also have as traditional the welcoming of someone with bread and salt.
Albania do not have such a thing.
And if these Slavic speakers would have been carried lots of I2-din than in the plains we should have a higher concentration of I2-din that in the mountains,in Romania.
However,is not like that,in the mountains there is more I2-din that in the plains.
And in the plains we have more R1A.
Which means Slavic speakers were not carrying too much I2-din.
So,can you please with something more logic at this thread and stop with anti-Slavic propaganda?
The Slavs that settled in Romania,and got assimilated to Romanian language are great citizens of Romania,they are more Romanian than city settlers,especially those city settlers from Muntenia/Wallachia which got Turkish influences.
Slavs are an essential part of the forming of the Romanian people.
So would be interested to make genetic testing of the average Romanian peasant and average Romanian shepherd.
I suppose average Romanian shepherd will have plenty of I2 and few J2 and E-V13,same about R1A,but also a decent percentage of R1B-l23,while average Romanian peasant is a mix of Neolithic and Slavic people,having 20% or more R1A,E-V13,J-2 in higher percentages.
Offtopic:
You will not get from me any sympathy for the independence of Kosovo,we have already two muslim states in Europe,Albania and Bosnia we do not need a third one.
Albania and Bosnia should not be received in EU until they do not sign they will not try to implement Muslim rules in their countries.
If they start to implement Muslim rules,they should leave EU.

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Originally Posted by Besa

haplogroup E came from africa. EV-13 is a sub, it originated in the balkans.

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You are correct, to be more precise E-M78 were E-V13 that was mutated maybe some 18,000 BP probably mutated in Egypt. E-V13 was mutated some8/10,000 BP later. in Middle east, Anatolia or Balkans proper like Garrik stated.

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Originally Posted by Mihaitzateo

Besa , this is a serious forum, not an "Aryan propaganda"board.
Egypt if you search in history was thousands of years ahead of Indo-Europeans as civilization.
From ancient Egypt E-V13 came. Or E people came and they suffered a mutation to E-V13.

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This is about dna historical migratory correctness. E-M78 (were later E-V13 stems from) was mutated some 18/20,000 years BP in Egypt but well before the classic Egyptian era. Its much more likely that E-V13 was mutated in a completely different region outside Egypt considering the time gap. Present E-V13 (2%) in Egypt is very probable to Greek settlements (Alexandria was founded by Alexander the great and taken his name) and Greek settlement is well documented.

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Originally Posted by Garrik

There are three assumptions:
(1) E-V13 originated in the Middle East
(2) E-V13 originated in Anatolia
(3) E-V13 originated in Balkans.

Of course, E-V13 is subclade of E-M78, which is Northern African (Egypt) haplogroup.

My opinion is when early farmers (mostly E-V13 and J-M12) came to the Balkans, haplogroup E-V13 has already was formed. Probably it originated from Middle East, but and Anatolia can be country of origin. There are opinions that early farmers moved to the Caucasus and over the coast of the Black sea, and today's areas of Ukraine, Moldavia and Romania came to the Balkans, but I think probability of this assumption is less.

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Totally agree. I dont want to hijack this thread with E-V13 origins. If anyone is interested in contributing here is a dedicated thread.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...-V13-originate

Here a picture of some Bosnian-Herzogovian shepherds:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...k%29_group.jpg
They are looking typical Vlach.
Another very shocking resemblance,two races of shepherd dogs,one from Bukovina,one from Bosnia&Herzegovina and Croatia:
The Romanian variant:
http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciob%C4...sc_de_Bucovina
The Bosnia&Herzegovina variant:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tornjak
I2-din originated in current day Moldavia,this mutation.
The theory with I2-din South (which Serbians got most) moving from South Germany is pure non-sense,there is not any trace of I2-din South in Germany,neither South of Danube,where is very few.
According to Romanian historians,Slavic migration was a peaceful move of a large mass of peasants.
EDIT:
Is really lol mode that so many people are wasting so much energy to prove I2-din is not from Romania and Balkans but that came here 1400 years ago.
It does not really matter what you say,this is not changing the history.

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Originally Posted by Garrick

I only gave one map for movement of Goths. You can look it:



It was only purpose that map (this is not a Stone Age period), you can follow the movement of the Goths from north of Europe to Iberian peninsula.

I had no intention to elaborate movements carriers of I haplogroup in general, and it is not a theme in this post.

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According to Yamnaya samples closest resemblance to Norwegian people,I1 people were in Scandinavia before IE people came.
No I1 was found in Yamnaya people.
However,IE Germanic assimilated I1 people from Scandinavia,but they did not mixed almost at all to Sami people.
Which is suggesting that besides Finns and Sami people,which are sharing N1C,was another cultural group in Scandinavia,before Germanic speakers came and conquered them.And this group of people,mostly carrying I1 mixed with Germanic speakers and gave the Norse Germanic cultural group.
After,Germans started to move from Scandinavia and spread I1 in Europe.
See that Viking raids did not brought almost any N1C in Great Britain,however they brought R1A and I1 and other HGs.

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Originally Posted by clintCG

Great, keep supporting outdated Paleolithic continuity "trusted sources".
There is more than enough evidence that it is Gothic. Far more enough than Illyrian/Thracian.
Writings of Eupedia administrators were made when Paleolithic continuity theory was popular- but now it is outdated

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We speak about migration period from about 376 to 800 AD. It is important because different times make confusion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migration_Period

The Migration Period, also known as the Völkerwanderung^[1] ("migration of peoples" in German) or Barbarian Invasions, was a period of intensified human migration in Europe often defined, from the period when it seriously impacted the Roman world, as running from about 376 to 800 AD^[2][3] during the transition from Late Antiquity to the Early Middle Ages. This period was marked by profound changes both within the Roman Empire and beyond its "barbarian frontier". The migrants who came first were Germanic tribes such as the Goths, Vandals, Angles, Saxons, Lombards, Suebi, Frisii, Jutes and Franks; they were later pushed westwards by the Huns, Avars, Slavs, Bulgars and Alans.^[4] Later migrations (such as the Arab conquest and Viking, Norman, Hungarian, Moorish, Turkic, and Mongol invasions) also had significant effects (especially in North Africa, the Iberian peninsula, Anatolia and Central and Eastern Europe); however, they are outside the scope of the Migration Period.
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According different sources Goths can be I1, R1b and R1a carriers. I would not about percentages. Of course they could have other haplogroups. However probability that they were significant I2a-Din-S carriers is minimal.

When the Goths and Slavs arrived to Balkans, Balkan population had I2a haplogroup. Slavs couldn't change it significantly. And R1a existed in Balkans when Slavs arrived. Slavs could significantly change the situation only in the Pannonian Plain.

And I2a is probably older than Ken Nordtvedt suggest. Of course Thracians and Illyrians had this haplogroup, probability would be small in opposite case. Slavs didn't overpopulate mountain ares in Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia...

I2a is very significant haplogroup for Balkan, South Slavs and Romanians (division is linguistic-cultural, closeness according to haplogroups is obvious), even in Greece there is significant percentage I2a carriers (North Greece 16%, South Greece 9%!). And this is not due to Slavs (and had nothing to do with the Goths).

And only Geg Albanians (not Tosk Albanians!) in the Balkan are I2a carriers in very small extent, and it distinguish them from the rest of Balkan population. And they probably came the latest in the Balkans, probably from North-East (probably they were non-Balkan population before Christ).

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What is interesting. I think that I2a (and generally I) carriers, had own language once, it had to be pre-IE language! It couldn't be language of R1 carriers. Where we can search this extincit language? In the Balkan? I don't believe in this moment. Maybe we can try others tracks, for example Nuragic language (extinct too, but knowledge exists) in Sardinia.

Here is a genetic study about Aromanians:
Lowest Y DNA I they have is 17%:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromanians#Genetic_studies
Highest I they got is 42%.
Also,they got plenty of J2 and plenty of R1b.
Also,they have low R1A,some group of Aromanians even have 0% R1A.
So guess again what Y DNA mostly brought the Slavic speakers that moved around 600 AD.
I think it is R1A clades.

Sample population	Sample size	R1b	R1a	I	E1b1b	E1b1a	J	G	N	T	L
Aromanians from Dukasi, Albania[62]	39	2.6	2.6	17.9	17.9	0.0	48.7	10.3	0.0	0.0	0.0
Aromanians from Andon Poci, Albania[62]	19	36.8	0.0	42.1	15.8	0.0	5.3	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0
Aromanians from Kruševo, Macedonia[62]	43	27.9	11.6	20.9	20.9	0.0	11.6	7.0	0.0	0.0	0.0
Aromanians from Štip, Macedonia[62]	65	23.1	21.5	16.9	18.5	0.0	20.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0
Aromanians in Romania[62]	42	23.8	2.4	19.0	7.1	0.0	33.3	0.0	—	—	—

(the link to the study :
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...5.00251.x/epdf - Romanians in this study are also high on I1 and R1B but not that high in R1A)
Please note that Aromanians that have highest R1A are those living in Macedonia/FYROM.
Quite clear from where they got the R1A,from Slavic males there.

From:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...-Balkans/page7

Current names:

http://oi60.tinypic.com/i57omp.jpg

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People should really start naming clades after SNPs

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Originally Posted by Garrick

We speak about migration period from about 376 to 800 AD. It is important because different times make confusion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migration_Period

The Migration Period, also known as the Völkerwanderung^[1] ("migration of peoples" in German) or Barbarian Invasions, was a period of intensified human migration in Europe often defined, from the period when it seriously impacted the Roman world, as running from about 376 to 800 AD^[2][3] during the transition from Late Antiquity to the Early Middle Ages. This period was marked by profound changes both within the Roman Empire and beyond its "barbarian frontier". The migrants who came first were Germanic tribes such as the Goths, Vandals, Angles, Saxons, Lombards, Suebi, Frisii, Jutes and Franks; they were later pushed westwards by the Huns, Avars, Slavs, Bulgars and Alans.^[4] Later migrations (such as the Arab conquest and Viking, Norman, Hungarian, Moorish, Turkic, and Mongol invasions) also had significant effects (especially in North Africa, the Iberian peninsula, Anatolia and Central and Eastern Europe); however, they are outside the scope of the Migration Period.
...

According different sources Goths can be I1, R1b and R1a carriers. I would not about percentages. Of course they could have other haplogroups. However probability that they were significant I2a-Din-S carriers is minimal.

When the Goths and Slavs arrived to Balkans, Balkan population had I2a haplogroup. Slavs couldn't change it significantly. And R1a existed in Balkans when Slavs arrived. Slavs could significantly change the situation only in the Pannonian Plain.

And I2a is probably older than Ken Nordtvedt suggest. Of course Thracians and Illyrians had this haplogroup, probability would be small in opposite case. Slavs didn't overpopulate mountain ares in Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia...

I2a is very significant haplogroup for Balkan, South Slavs and Romanians (division is linguistic-cultural, closeness according to haplogroups is obvious), even in Greece there is significant percentage I2a carriers (North Greece 16%, South Greece 9%!). And this is not due to Slavs (and had nothing to do with the Goths).

And only Geg Albanians (not Tosk Albanians!) in the Balkan are I2a carriers in very small extent, and it distinguish them from the rest of Balkan population. And they probably came the latest in the Balkans, probably from North-East (probably they were non-Balkan population before Christ).

...
What is interesting. I think that I2a (and generally I) carriers, had own language once, it had to be pre-IE language! It couldn't be language of R1 carriers. Where we can search this extincit language? In the Balkan? I don't believe in this moment. Maybe we can try others tracks, for example Nuragic language (extinct too, but knowledge exists) in Sardinia.

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Yes,look at Aromanians document,Romanians from near Ploiesti have lower I overall than those from Constanta,same about R1A,same about R1B.
So,I think,a part of I is I1 and was brought by Goths,a part of R1B is from Goths and also a part of R1A.
Talking about this document:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...5.00251.x/epdf
Constanta is near sea side,in South Eastern Romania,Ploiesti,at 30km or less from Mountains,in Central Romania.
I am wondering,how is possible that no Aromanians have E-V13 over 20%?
If what some Albanians are saying that Aromanians and Albanians are almost same people,well that is not supported by Y DNA of Aromanians.
They (Aromanians) were quite hermetic people,marrying only with other Aromanians.
And there is some Aromanians have 41.9% I - from which I guess at least 36% is I2-din.
And they also have a lot of R1b - from which I guess most is R1b-L23.
So,the theory with I2-din coming to Balkans with Slavs is not supported by Aromanian genetics.
Aromanians = Some Romanian dialect speakers,that were living mostly in Albania.

P. Heather, "Empires and Barbarians", in chapter 5. "Huns on the Run" claims that in 488 AD ca. 100,000 Goths settled in Italy.

This contradicts the claim that Goths didn't settle there.

There should be a genetic trace of that migration as 100 thousand people = ca. 2% of the population of Italy at that time.

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Originally Posted by Tomenable

P. Heather, "Empires and Barbarians", in chapter 5. "Huns on the Run" claims that in 488 AD ca. 100,000 Goths settled in Italy.

This contradicts the claim that Goths didn't settle there.

There should be a genetic trace of that migration as 100 thousand people = ca. 2% of the population of Italy at that time.

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The goths settled mostly in Northern Italy ............and later these goths where pushed out of the central part of northern italy and replaced by the Lombards. so, North-eat Italy retained most of the goths in Itlay with north-west Italy coming second.

dalmatia, croatia and slovenia in regards to goths settlement is another story

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Originally Posted by mihaitzateo

According to Romanian historians, Slavic migration was a peaceful move

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P. Heather in his "Empires and Barbarians" in chapter 8. "The Creation of Slavic Europe" strongly disagrees with such a notion.

One of my Hungarian friends says that Croatians are intermixed with Gothic Germans. Don't know how accurate this claim is; but I wonder if it explains the presence of haplogroup Q in the Balkans:

Attachment 7167

How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?- Well, that would depend on the definition of Paleolithic continuity - because either Slavs, Illyrians or other Indo-European peoples could have picked up I2a indigenous men and migrated there.

I voted for Paleolithic continuity; though. It is not to say it is indigenous to the region, though. But that is only one possibility. Indo-Europeans could have picked up I2 men and migrated there. That's the second possibility.

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Originally Posted by mihaitzateo

I already told you that Dacians and Thracians could not have carried E-V13.
This was brought by Neolithic people.
Or another clade of E was brought and E-V13 appeared in Balkans,from E.
As for J2,I think was brought by more people,once by Neolithic farmers but also Thracians carried J2.
Anyway,Thracians should have carried mostly R1A and R1B.
Is quite logic,there is some R1B branch that is at high rates in Albania,in Armenia and also extends in other parts of Europe.
Armenians are also speakers of Satem IE language,so is quite clear those people who brought Albanian,were Satem speakers.
Since Albanian is also Satem language.
That haplogroup is called R1b-L23 (HT35) and is present in significant numbers in Albania,Greece,Romania and so on.
Quite clear that Dacians,Thracians were carrying such HG.
I also think Thracians were not speaking a single language,but a group of languages.
And that were not only R1B-L23 carriers,they also carried R1A clades and so on.
Ancestors of the Slavs should have been also included in the Thracians and got their language after Germanic migrations.
But those who brought today Slavic language moved around 600 AD.
Not possible that at 600 Ad I2-din was not already present in high percentages in Romania and Balkans.
Also,R1A should have already been in Romania and Balkans from Thracians when Slavs moved at 600 AD.
I have no idea why some people believe that I2-din just came,with a migration and that were not more people carrying this HG.
Is very simple,people with I2-din were in the area from before Thracians or Slavs moved,so both these people assimilated I2-din people and carried with them,after.
In Romania plenty of Slavs settled but mostly in the plains.Maybe 90% of the Slavs settled in the plains,maybe even more. Slavic speakers were not pastoralists,but were practicing agriculture and raising pigs.
Let me give another clear thing,about how many Slavs settled in Romania,we also have as traditional the welcoming of someone with bread and salt.
Albania do not have such a thing.
And if these Slavic speakers would have been carried lots of I2-din than in the plains we should have a higher concentration of I2-din that in the mountains,in Romania.
However,is not like that,in the mountains there is more I2-din that in the plains.
And in the plains we have more R1A.
Which means Slavic speakers were not carrying too much I2-din.
So,can you please with something more logic at this thread and stop with anti-Slavic propaganda?
The Slavs that settled in Romania,and got assimilated to Romanian language are great citizens of Romania,they are more Romanian than city settlers,especially those city settlers from Muntenia/Wallachia which got Turkish influences.
Slavs are an essential part of the forming of the Romanian people.
So would be interested to make genetic testing of the average Romanian peasant and average Romanian shepherd.
I suppose average Romanian shepherd will have plenty of I2 and few J2 and E-V13,same about R1A,but also a decent percentage of R1B-l23,while average Romanian peasant is a mix of Neolithic and Slavic people,having 20% or more R1A,E-V13,J-2 in higher percentages.
Offtopic:
You will not get from me any sympathy for the independence of Kosovo,we have already two muslim states in Europe,Albania and Bosnia we do not need a third one.
Albania and Bosnia should not be received in EU until they do not sign they will not try to implement Muslim rules in their countries.
If they start to implement Muslim rules,they should leave EU.

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Actually mihaitzateo might be right here; in the Albanian populations R1b and J2b (Bronze Age immigrants) make up almost half of the Albanian population alone; while Y-DNA E-V13 makes up most of the other half. E-V13 is a Neolithic Y-DNA; which means the original E-V13 people may have not been the proto-Albanian Indo-European speakers. The E-V13 men may have merely assimilated into the Indo-European language brought by the R1b and J2b men.

E-V13 men may have originally spoken a non-IE Neolithic language that later went extinct; being replaced by proto-Albanian speaking Bronze Age Indo-Europeans.

The real origins of the Albanians may lie in MtDNA (female) sources rather than Y-DNA (male) sources. We need to know the most common mtdna haplogroups in the Albanian population; and compare them with other Balkanic and European populations.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Melancon

Actually mihaitzateo might be right here; in the Albanian populations R1b and J2b (Bronze Age immigrants) make up almost half of the Albanian population alone; while Y-DNA E-V13 makes up most of the other half. E-V13 is a Neolithic Y-DNA; which means the original E-V13 people may have not been the proto-Albanian Indo-European speakers. The E-V13 men may have merely assimilated into the Indo-European language brought by the R1b and J2b men.

E-V13 men may have originally spoken a non-IE Neolithic language that later went extinct; being replaced by proto-Albanian speaking Bronze Age Indo-Europeans.

The real origins of the Albanians may lie in MtDNA (female) sources rather than Y-DNA (male) sources. We need to know the most common mtdna haplogroups in the Albanian population; and compare them with other Balkanic and European populations.

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Can you elaborate a bit more what you mean with your last paragraph?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skerdilaidas

Can you elaborate a bit more what you mean with your last paragraph?

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The maternal (female) DNA of Albanians may hold the clues to their origins; rather than studying the Y-DNA (male) DNA.

Because indigenous women are usually taken by male invaders; and the indigenous men are usually killed or assimilated. Since Albanians share Neolithic as well as Bronze Age Y-DNA; this suggests (according to theory) that Albanians were originally a Neolithic population that may have been assimilated into a Bronze Age culture. (Indo-European invasion)

If we compare the mtdna haplogroups of Albanian women with those of other Balkanic and European populations; we may better understand who the Albanians are, or where they originated from. For example; if Albanians share mtdna with their Bosnian and Croatian neighbors; as well as Italians or Sardinians (ancient populations) then that would suggest that Albanians are most likely Illyrians or related. If they share more mtdna in common with Romanians and Bulgarians and other Eastern Europeans; then they are most likely of Thracian extraction or related.

Unfortunately; it seems that Maciamo did not give us a good enough sample to make comparisons. I need deeper, more specific mtdna subclades.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skerdilaidas

Can you elaborate a bit more what you mean with your last paragraph?

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He wants to tell you that if E-V13 are remnants of Neolitic continuity, there is no way Albanians as IE people can be derived directly from them.
Once we would dismiss that option, the next one to analyze would be mathernal continuity.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Melancon

The maternal (female) DNA of Albanians may hold the clues to their origins; rather than studying the Y-DNA (male) DNA.

Because indigenous women are usually taken by male invaders; and the indigenous men are usually killed or assimilated. Since Albanians share Neolithic as well as Bronze Age Y-DNA; this suggests (according to theory) that Albanians were originally a Neolithic population that may have been assimilated into a Bronze Age culture. (Indo-European invasion)

If we compare the mtdna haplogroups of Albanian women with those of other Balkanic and European populations; we may better understand who the Albanians are, or where they originated from. For example; if Albanians share mtdna with their Bosnian and Croatian neighbors; as well as Italians or Sardinians (ancient populations) then that would suggest that Albanians are most likely Illyrians or related. If they share more mtdna in common with Romanians and Bulgarians and other Eastern Europeans; then they are most likely of Thracian extraction or related.

Unfortunately; it seems that Maciamo did not give us a good enough sample to make comparisons. I need deeper, more specific mtdna subclades.

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I see. I haven't really seen any study done on our mtDNA so far, but I think we sort of are in between just like with y-dna, but lot more diverse. With people I share on 23andme, this is what they have for mtDNA: H, H5a, H7, H9a, H11a, H12, H13a2, J1c, J1c3, J1c2, U5a1a, U4c1, U1a3,, W, W1. I share with another fella that has R0a1a, and I was told that this subclade peaks on Tuscany, Italy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ike

He wants to tell you that if E-V13 are remnants of Neolitic continuity, there is no way Albanians as IE people can be derived directly from them.
Once we would dismiss that option, the next one to analyze would be mathernal continuity.

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E-V13 are indigenous Balkan folk, call them Pelasgians or whatever you like, that got absorbed by the Indo-Europeans that brought the Albanian language to the peninsula, that much I think even the elementary school children know by now. So E-V13 is most definitely their marker, and today it peaks on us, but that doesn't mean much, since most definitely the proto Albanian came into the peninsula during late bronze age. Plenty of time for things to shift or a certain y-dna to expand and dominate when one takes in consideration our strict paternal Fis (Clan) traditions, also why we are not as diverse on y-dna, specifically the rural Ghegs.