How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

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Originally Posted by albanopolis

From 1900 up 1990 maybe 5 to 6 million Greeks left to the new Word . Since I have lived in USA for a while only in USA are about 5 million Greeks. Not to mention Canada, Australia, Brasil, Latin America, EU. it could be twice more Greeks around the World than in Greece. So all the people you are mentioning left to other countries. Had they all been living in Greece today Greece would number 35 million souls. Among this emigres could be Vlahs and arvanites. So my estimate is that in today's Greece only 5 Million are real ethnic Hellenes. Others are of different background. Albania had a census a while ago. Out of 3,2 million Albanians citizens living in the country at the time of census only 2.2 said they were Albanians, Others could be Vlahs, Roma, Greeks Slavs, even Armenians and Bosniaks. Greece is a lot more mixed for many reasons I wish not to mention here.

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WHO SAID THAT?
YOU SHAVE SEEN IN TV?
fantastic,
ALL THAT UNDER WHOS SEARCH? YOURS?
NO LINK, NO DATA, JUST YOUR PERSONAL THOUGHTS.
AND YOU WANT us TO BELIEVE you OF SERIOUS DISCUSS??

naaaaa

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Originally Posted by sparkey

I recall Greek I2a-Din being mainly I2a-Din-N rather than I2a-Din-S, and indeed the Greek DNA Project at FTDNA seems to have a ratio of about 7:1 of I2a-Din-N to I2a-Din-S. That alone is a pretty good argument against the Serbs bringing I2a-Din to Greece. But is it an argument for the Vlachs? I'm not quite convinced... take the fact that Vlachs have at least as much J2 as I2a-Din, but that Northern Greece is actually a low point for J2 in Greece. R1a is also elevated in Northern Greece (18% per Maciamo's table) despite Vlachs having relatively low R1a (10% per Maciamo's table). So we're perhaps looking for an I2a-Din-N group with R1a to spare and not much J2. Perhaps Bulgarians? I'm not sure what their I2a-Din-N to I2a-Din-S ratio is, though.

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Vlachs are smaller groups, not one as somones would like.

for example the |Kutsuk Vlachs are from dismiss of 4rth Legion in PalaioPHarsalos,
Pharsal-os is the same word with Versailles and simmilar the other village names, next to where R1a in Greece has its high 24%
Mengle Vlachs are a group of Vlachs who are called Armanesti their connectiomns with Other Vlachs is limited and seems to be in center of a R1b area, they are consider as latinised locals
Moesio Vlachs, Most of them came until WW1 from Moesia, Rumania Bulgaria or MOLDO-WALLACHIA significant E-V13
Aranto-Vlachs, they are from Moschopolis today Albania, they left their area when Albanians burn it to the groud,they carry J2b among them
Scando or Stranza-Vlachs, they are from SOUTH and East parts of Bulgaria, an area where Scordisci stationed before devastate to minor Asia,
they are nnot connected among them, neither genetically, neither by look

for example ArvantoVlachs have enough dark, while Kutsuk Vlachs have big % of Blonds, and Mengle are very tall in the areas, they live in the areas of Makedonian Lokroi which were considered the tallest among Greeks from antique and are dark brown

we can not combine Arvanto-Vlachs with Kutsuk Vlachs etc etc, the one came from Epirus Nova and the other is from WEST of ALPS Roman Legions

their population of all groups except Kutsuk Vlacchs is limited, you can find them even in Wiki,
their linguistic are tottaly Different,
Moesian Vlachs were billingual, from their early written we find the modern Thracian Idiom, meaning they were connected with Constantinopolis Greek more, than central Greece,
Most of their families have a Hero in the Greek revolt in Danubian principallities and Iasion

generally Vlachs are either kelts from WEST of Alps, other Pannoni Kelts, other latinised local who worked in Roman Villas Villachios Βιλαετια (Villaet)
in WW2 Italians notice that speak a latin language, and they propaganda them to make an indipendent zone, but noone followed

besides there vlachs in each country of Balkans, and most are diffirent communities, except the Moesians, the Wallachs
from Croatia to Greece and from Albania to Bulgaria, in Turkey such community at least as i know does not exist

in Balkans romans dismiss many times legions, as the 4rth the 5tη Cinqueari etc, where a legion was dismissed, land was given, and creation of latinspeakers.

for example there are Vlachs in Montenegro or Bosnia, or Serbia or Croatia, that theymight not even use the termination Vlach

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Originally Posted by kamani

The only arguments I can think of for the Vlachs-hypothesis are: Romanians themselves and the Aromanian-Albanian village "Andon Poci", which was 40% I2a, but that is a very small village, so probably a founder effect. The other Aromanian-Albanian villages did not have as much I2a. But Romanians are definitely old in the Balkans, at least since Roman times and they're not roman soldiers like some of them claim to be. They do speak a language with a lot of words in common with Latin and Albanian. I have even heard a Romanian historian on a documentary say that Italians got Latin from Romanians.

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Vlah language is a Latin language, classified as a Romanian dialect. Its not close to Albanian even though we share about 150 words. It is thought that those words are interchanges from being neighbors.

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Originally Posted by kamani

The only arguments I can think of for the Vlachs-hypothesis are: Romanians themselves and the Aromanian-Albanian village "Andon Poci", which was 40% I2a, but that is a very small village, so probably a founder effect. The other Aromanian-Albanian villages did not have as much I2a. But Romanians are definitely old in the Balkans, at least since Roman times and they're not roman soldiers like some of them claim to be. They do speak a language with a lot of words in common with Latin and Albanian. I have even heard a Romanian historian on a documentary say that Italians got Latin from Romanians.

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In this study of theoritical character, the sight is set on the most typical similtudes between Albanian and Romanian
observed in the entire language subsystems. There turn out to be common features only for these two languages which
are different from overall Balkan features (Balcan shpracbund). This article points out not only the parallelisms
previously noticed by many linguists over centuries during the evolution of these two languages independently of each
other, but also the latest common points recently observed.
Making
clear the origin of these similarities might help resolve the ethnogenesis issue of the two nations and not further blur it.
http://www.mcser.org/journal/index.p...ewFile/203/188

I have even heard a Romanian historian on a documentary say that Italians got Latin from Romanians.

Historian?Wow!

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Originally Posted by sparkey

IPerhaps Bulgarians? I'm not sure what their I2a-Din-N to I2a-Din-S ratio is, though.

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About 85-90% I2a Din N , but we need better samples :)

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Originally Posted by gyms

I have even heard a Romanian historian on a documentary say that Italians got Latin from Romanians.

Historian?Wow!

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that may have a chance of true,
Pannoni Celts, Hungary Serbia ROMANIA
Before or After Latenne-Haalstaat?

surely the time that Celts lived in Pannoni Modern Romania was Geto_Dacian Thracian linguistically

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Originally Posted by Yetos

that may have a chance of true,
Pannoni Celts, Hungary Serbia ROMANIA
Before or After Latenne-Haalstaat?

surely the time that Celts lived in Pannoni Modern Romania was Geto_Dacian Thracian linguistically

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Linguistic research has determined that most of the words shared by Romanian and Albanian are not loans from one tongue to the other but have a common origin in the substratum, before than these two languages began to be distinguished from each other. Romanian terms that are similar to Albanian mainly regard primary elements like body parts, names of animals and plants, and words specifically related with the pastoral life. It is significant that such vocabulary in Romanian is not found in Slavic or any other language spoken in the Balkans but only in Albanian.

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Originally Posted by gyms

Linguistic research has determined that most of the words shared by Romanian and Albanian are not loans from one tongue to the other but have a common origin in the substratum, before than these two languages began to be distinguished from each other. Romanian terms that are similar to Albanian mainly regard primary elements like body parts, names of animals and plants, and words specifically related with the pastoral life. It is significant that such vocabulary in Romanian is not found in Slavic or any other language spoken in the Balkans but only in Albanian.

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Albanians and Romanians were neighbors for thousands of years. Slavs were in Asia central where Mongolia is today. So Romanian-Slav contact was minimal. Maybe few centuries on their way to Balkan. So there is not good reason for Slavs for loanwords.

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Originally Posted by albanopolis

Albanians and Romanians were neighbors for thousands of years. Slavs were in Asia central where Mongolia is today. So Romanian-Slav contact was minimal. Maybe few centuries on their way to Balkan. So there is not good reason for Slavs for loanwords.

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you understand that such statement takes away Illyrian continuity and enters getoThracian or Albocense chance

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Originally Posted by gyms

Linguistic research has determined that most of the words shared by Romanian and Albanian are not loans from one tongue to the other but have a common origin in the substratum, before than these two languages began to be distinguished from each other. Romanian terms that are similar to Albanian mainly regard primary elements like body parts, names of animals and plants, and words specifically related with the pastoral life. It is significant that such vocabulary in Romanian is not found in Slavic or any other language spoken in the Balkans but only in Albanian.

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????
what connection has your post with what I said and Ask?

this site below is now regarded as a celtic burial site in modern Albania/macedonia . Its part of the celtic invasion of the balkans, greece and anatolia after the death of Alexander the great.

http://berberian11.tripod.com/vulich_trebenishte.htm

I will attached the new article as soon as I can buy it.

Question- did the pannonian/danubian celts prior to the invasion of the balkans have any I2 marker

Note: the bryges in the balkans are noted as same tribe of celts in the alps ( some say they are illyrian)
The study of the onomastic data has shown that out of the 50 names found in the Ohrid-Struga region, no more than four can be classified as Illyrian. Some of the personal names can be classified neither as Illyrian, nor ancient Greek, or Thracian. Other names that were formerly considered to be Illyrian have many analogies in Asia Minor, which proves that they should be ascribed to the Bryges

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Originally Posted by Sile

this site below is now regarded as a celtic burial site in modern Albania/macedonia . Its part of the celtic invasion of the balkans, greece and anatolia after the death of Alexander the great.

http://berberian11.tripod.com/vulich_trebenishte.htm

I will attached the new article as soon as I can buy it.

Question- did the pannonian/danubian celts prior to the invasion of the balkans have any I2 marker

Note: the bryges in the balkans are noted as same tribe of celts in the alps ( some say they are illyrian)
The study of the onomastic data has shown that out of the 50 names found in the Ohrid-Struga region, no more than four can be classified as Illyrian. Some of the personal names can be classified neither as Illyrian, nor ancient Greek, or Thracian. Other names that were formerly considered to be Illyrian have many analogies in Asia Minor, which proves that they should be ascribed to the Bryges

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Βρυγες may be connected as Bricandi? or as Burgundi, and why they had a god named Βακχος? BOG?

your question is very good?

did the pannonian/danubian celts prior to the invasion of the balkans have any I2 marker


BUT
<<Four golden burial masks,>>
that is indicator of Varna necropolis culture, a burial ritual that started from Aimos peninsula years before IE and Egypt,
from balkans travel to Egypt,
I wrote about when I wrote about Varna necropolis,
Gold Mettalurgy is not IE, But Vinca Varna Mycenae, and probably was extracted either in Georgia rivers, either in Romania hills.
it is far ancient than arsenic bronze of IE.

in fact only reading that golden masks found is enough to tell you that Bryges indeed were either close to Greek either Thracian, and thats proves to me,
The gold in Tomps and especially the masks is found 6kya in Varna Necropolis much before IE entrance, that is why although I do not arque with arsenic bronze, I arque with kurgans and horse/chariot
it is a pre IE ritual that IE kings accept it,

EXCEPT IF WE FIND IE GENES IN VARNA VINCA MYCENAE BEFORE 3500 BC

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Originally Posted by albanopolis

Albanians and Romanians were neighbors for thousands of years. Slavs were in Asia central where Mongolia is today. So Romanian-Slav contact was minimal. Maybe few centuries on their way to Balkan. So there is not good reason for Slavs for loanwords.

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Actually the closes thing to Romanians in this world is Bulgarians and Serbs and the reason is not only the Thracian blood but also the Slavic ones. They borrowed a lot of words from us which they used to this day. :)

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Originally Posted by Yetos

????
what connection has your post with what I said and Ask?

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Take it easy Yetos!

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Originally Posted by Yaan

Actually the closes thing to Romanians in this world is Bulgarians and Serbs and the reason is not only the Thracian blood but also the Slavic ones. They borrowed a lot of words from us which they used to this day. :)

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Not really.
To South Romanians,those from SE Romania, Bulgarians are closest.
To those Romanians from SW Romania,Serbians are closest.
Same about those from West Romania,like Timisoara.
But for Romanians from Central Romania,from Wallachia/near Bucharest and as you go upward towards North mountains,Ukrainians are looking almost identical.Anyway,a Serb in Romania will be quite impossible to be seen as not native from here,so most closed overall from Romanians are Serbians.
Moldovans,guess they are closed to SW Russians people,but not that closed to Ukrainians.
Maybe those Moldovans from mountains are close again from Ukrainians or Serbians.
North Transylvania,no idea,Croats/Serbs,I think are closest to them.
Maybe you did not knew,but Romania has Ukrainians as most numerous Slavic minority..Is simple Ukrainians migrated from their land,on the mountains Southwards in Romania.
I think actually Romania had an ancient Italic population,a Slavic or Slavic with some Baltic influences language population conquered them.
After a long rule and mixing over this Italic population,which was most related to today Sardinians,these Slavic speakers were conquered by Roman Empire and another linguistic influence appeared.
There were also Iranic tribes,like Sarmatians,which mixed a little with people from Romania,Balkans and even today Ukraine and left some words and some genetics here.

All haplogroups are common in Romania and other Central and Eastern European populations.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults

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Originally Posted by mihaitzateo

Not really.
To South Romanians,those from SE Romania, Bulgarians are closest.
To those Romanians from SW Romania,Serbians are closest.
Same about those from West Romania,like Timisoara.
But for Romanians from Central Romania,from Wallachia/near Bucharest and as you go upward towards North mountains,Ukrainians are looking almost identical.Anyway,a Serb in Romania will be quite impossible to be seen as not native from here,so most closed overall from Romanians are Serbians.
Moldovans,guess they are closed to SW Russians people,but not that closed to Ukrainians.
Maybe those Moldovans from mountains are close again from Ukrainians or Serbians.
North Transylvania,no idea,Croats/Serbs,I think are closest to them.
Maybe you did not knew,but Romania has Ukrainians as most numerous Slavic minority..Is simple Ukrainians migrated from their land,on the mountains Southwards in Romania.
I think actually Romania had an ancient Italic population,a Slavic or Slavic with some Baltic influences language population conquered them.
After a long rule and mixing over this Italic population,which was most related to today Sardinians,these Slavic speakers were conquered by Roman Empire and another linguistic influence appeared.
There were also Iranic tribes,like Sarmatians,which mixed a little with people from Romania,Balkans and even today Ukraine and left some words and some genetics here.

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My friend Romanians are one folk u know, it is not US or something, the closest to Romanians from the West and those from the East etc. Romanians on general are a lot closer to Bulgarians and Serbs then to Ukrainians. I have been to Bukurest, everybody was speaking Romanian to me and majority of people looked really close to us. We are we and u r u, but the closest thing in the world is Romanians/ Moldvian and Yugoslavs and Bulgarians /Macedonians:) The rest is politics, language and culture, I am speaking about genes and looks :)

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Originally Posted by Yetos

you understand that such statement takes away Illyrian continuity and enters getoThracian or Albocense chance

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It does not. Albanian and Illyrian are interchangeable terms. The only people who doubt it are Slavs and there good allies Greeks. Illyrians and Dacians were neighbors for millenia. Slavs are relatively newcomers in the Balkans.

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Originally Posted by albanopolis

It does not. Albanian and Illyrian are interchangeable terms. The only people who doubt it are Slavs and there good allies Greeks. Illyrians and Dacians were neighbors for millenia. Slavs are relatively newcomers in the Balkans.

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Albanian is a nation, Ilyrians are ancient people. Albanians have a lot of Ilyrian blood and they do come from Ilyrians but they are slo a lot, a lot of other things, just like everybody else.

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Originally Posted by albanopolis

It does not. Albanian and Illyrian are interchangeable terms. The only people who doubt it are Slavs and there good allies Greeks. Illyrians and Dacians were neighbors for millenia. Slavs are relatively newcomers in the Balkans.

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I said your statement takes away illyrian continuity, and it does, if continue believe it,
watch carefuuly what you state and said,

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Originally Posted by gyms

Linguistic research has determined that most of the words shared by Romanian and Albanian are not loans from one tongue to the other but have a common origin in the substratum, before than these two languages began to be distinguished from each other. Romanian terms that are similar to Albanian mainly regard primary elements like body parts, names of animals and plants, and words specifically related with the pastoral life. It is significant that such vocabulary in Romanian is not found in Slavic or any other language spoken in the Balkans but only in Albanian.

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That's consistent with Dacian hypothesis, also supported by Kaplan Burovich.

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Originally Posted by albanopolis

It does not. Albanian and Illyrian are interchangeable terms. The only people who doubt it are Slavs and there good allies Greeks. Illyrians and Dacians were neighbors for millenia.

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Let's not get too broad, the opponents are just the ultra-nationalist groups in Serbia and Greece.

http://books.google.se/books?id=RM6M...anians&f=false

by Lucian Boia

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Originally Posted by albanopolis

It does not. Albanian and Illyrian are interchangeable terms. The only people who doubt it are Slavs and there good allies Greeks. Illyrians and Dacians were neighbors for millenia. Slavs are relatively newcomers in the Balkans.

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what the poor Greeks done you?
When you state clear about the GetoDacian connectivity,
What is next? are you gonna tell us that geto-Thracians were Illyrians?

it is MEA CULPA, to your other posts.