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It cannot be ruled out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demetrios
As the geography would be relevant for the chronology of the events, where would you say the Goths picked it up and assimilated it ?
Or do you think that it was an original gothic lineage ?
Update is not finished. Most tnrca fluctuations are a bug according to yfull. Several ancients are older than the new formation date for example.Quote:
Originally Posted by Illyri
Something similar happened last time. Last time it was fixed a few weeks after the update.
Haven't really dwelt deep into the Gothic hypothesis other than finding it rational both from a geographical and chronological aspect, if we do eventually narrow down to approximately 1800 ybp (let's wait for the end of the update to be sure). But let me try and provide a framework now that i think about it. First of all, i don't think it would be a Gothic original line. I am still of the opinion that I-Y3120 would have ended up in eastern Europe via the Bastarnae or some other Celtic/Gallic proper tribe, centuries earlier (per the current formation date of I-Y3120 and the distribution of its samples). It could have been assimilated by Goths as they were expanding in eastern Europe around the 2nd-3rd centuries CE, but it isn't required for them to have assimilated the line in order for it to have ended up in the southern Balkans through the Gothic invasions. I assume that other neighboring people would have also taken part in the Gothic invasions of the southern Balkans in the 3rd century CE, and could have also carried the line instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Illyri
The Wielbark culture, located in Poland, is seen as the first cultural area of the Goths after their migration from Scandza (?). Let me include a relative Wikipedia segment for what followed:
Movement towards the Black Sea
Beginning in the middle 2nd century, the Wielbark culture shifted southeast towards the Black Sea. During this time the Wielbark culture is believed to have ejected and partially absorbed peoples of the Przeworsk culture. This was part of a wider southward movement of eastern Germanic tribes, which was probably caused by massive population growth. As a result, other tribes were pushed towards the Roman Empire, contributing to the beginning of the Marcomannic Wars. By 200 AD, Wielbark Goths were probably being recruited into the Roman army.
According to Jordanes, the Goths entered Oium, part of Scythia, under the king Filimer, where they defeated the Spali. The name Spali may mean "the giants" in Slavic, and the Spali were thus probably not Slavs. In the early 3rd century AD, western Scythia was inhabited by the agricultural Zarubintsy culture and the nomadic Sarmatians. Prior to the Sarmatians the area had been settled by the Bastarnae, who are believed to have carried out a migration similar to the Goths in the 3rd century BC. Peter Heather considers the Filimer story to be at least partially derived from Gothic oral tradition. The fact that the expanding Goths appear to have preserved their Gothic language during their migration, suggests that their movement involved a fairly large number of people.
By the mid 3rd century AD, the Wielbark culture had contributed to the formation of the Chernyakhov culture in Scythia. This strikingly uniform culture came to stretch from the Danube in the west to the Don in the east. It is believed to have been dominated by the Goths and other Germanic groups such as the Heruli. It nevertheless also included Iranian, Dacian, Roman and probably Slavic elements as well.
The Chernyakhov culture flourished between the 2nd and 5th centuries CE, in a wide area of eastern Europe, specifically in what is now Ukraine, Romania, Moldova and parts of Belarus. It is thought to be the result of a multiethnic cultural mix of the Sarmatian, Slavic, Gothic, and Geto-Dacian (including Romanized Daco-Romans) populations of the area. This can easily be seen as corroboration for either the adoption of the line by the Goths, or the accompanying of different people carrying the line as the Goths made their way towards the southern Balkans, since the environment was multiethnic after all. Here is also a map to give you some geographical perspective. Red area shows the extent of the Wielbark culture and the orange area shows the extent of the Chernyakhov culture.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...yakhov.svg.png
And of course the Bastarnae that i have mentioned in many of my previous posts, were also present in the area prior of them. Furthermore, Goths absorbing people of the Przeworsk culture is very crucial, because the Przeworsk culture, along with its Germanic elements, has also been linked to the proto-Slavs, whose descends certainly contributed to the expansion of the line some centuries later. Another interesting note is that the Goths of the Wielbark culture were being recruited as soldiers in the Roman Army by 200 CE, although i doubt those recruits had anything to do with the expansion of the line south.
Let me close by sharing a couple of maps showing the Gothic invasions south. Again, this is just a hypothesis, and its weight can only be measured safely as we collect additional data in the future.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...n_Empire_1.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...rd_century.jpg
The position of the subclades in YFull's YTree seem to have returned back to normal. Also, the following note has been posted concerning the dates:
• An important message about ages •
• An important message •
We were looking forward to the new version of the YTree, but unfortunately, many ages in this release of the YTree are incorrect due to an error during the update. Since we are continually improving our algorithms, it is difficult to avoid mistakes completely. Now we have localized the problem and will be fixing it. It was the largest release in terms of the number of added subclades and new SNPs, and the number of added ancient samples was over 400! These facts also influenced the time taken to prepare the YTree release recalculation. We expect the release of the revised version of the YTree within 10-15 days. Thank you for your patience and your support. We hope for your understanding.
Best regards, YFull Team
12.21.2020
All of the dates have been taken out of the YTree for the time being.
Yes, that's it. Up to now, this is the information that appears in my Yfull account:Quote:
Originally Posted by Demetrios
https://i.imgur.com/OlxRgXC.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/GMBeTZs.jpg
Some "written" history on south slavs in Greece which may (at least partially) explain why so much i2a-din in Greece -
"Byzantine literary accounts (i.e., John of Ephesus, etc.) mention the Slavs raiding areas of Greece during the 580s. According to later sources such as The Miracles of Saint Demetrius, the Drougoubitai, Sagoudatai, Belegezitai, Baiounetai, and Berzetai laid siege to Thessaloniki in 614–616.[37] However, this particular event was actually of local significance.[38] A combined effort of the Avars and Slavs two years later also failed to take the city. In 626, a combined Avar, Bulgar and Slav army besieged Constantinople. The siege was broken, which had repercussions upon the power and prestige of the Avar khanate. Slavic pressure on Thessaloniki ebbed after 617/618, until the Siege of Thessalonica (676–678) by a coalition of Rynchinoi, Sagoudatai, Drougoubitai and Stroumanoi attacked. This time, the Belegezites also known as the Velegeziti did not participate and in fact supplied the besieged citizens of Thessaloniki with grain. It seems that the Slavs settled on places of earlier settlements and probably merged later with the local populations of Greek descent to form mixed Byzantine-Slavic communities. The process was stimulated by the conversion of the Slavic tribes to Orthodox Christianity on the Balkans, during the same period.[39]
A number of medieval sources attest to the presence of Slavs in Greece. While en route to the Holy Land in 732, Willibald "reached the city of Monemvasia, in the land of Slavinia". This particular passage from the Vita Willibaldi is interpreted as an indication of a Slavic presence in the hinterland of the Peloponnese.[40] In reference to the plague of 744–747, Constantine VII wrote during the 10th century that "the entire country [of the Peloponnese] was Slavonized"
A lot more on this here - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sclaveni
A weird painting there too which shows various groups - the Gallia look darker tonned than other groups?? South slavs darker than Roma, these surely can't be the same Roma people that are discriminated today in europe?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...f_Otto_III.jpg
Happy new year everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet
I wouldn't describe I2a-Din as that much of an important line in Greece. For example, in Eupedia's Y-DNA haplogroups frequency by country webpage I2*/I2a (pertaining to the broader haplogroup) is listed as 9.5%, with the "South" designation which stands for "Peloponnese, Attica, and Athens" being at 9%. Furthermore, if i had to make a guess based on what i have seen i would say that half of that belongs to the pre-Slavic I-Y18331 branch.
As for the painting, it's not from Greece or anywhere close to it. This is a painting (an example of Ottonian art) from the Gospels of Otto III (Holy Roman Emperor from 996 until his early death in 1002). It shows four women approaching him, who represent the four provinces of his empire (Germany, France, northern Italy, and the Slavic east) and are reminiscent of Christ being approached by the three Biblical Magi. Despite that, artistic pieces don't always strive for realism.
Do you have a database of Greek dna I can look at because have been told that i2a din is actually more than 10% in Greece without including Y18331Quote:
Originally Posted by Demetrios
I know the painting isn't from Greece, it's a painting to show roughly what each group looked like at that time - the German is accurate so not sure why the rest shouldn't be. What do they mean by Roma there? Surely not Romani people and I assume people of Rome instead
YFull's Y-Tree and FTDNA's database would actually provide a nice approximation, but i am not aware of any such frequency table that has collected all of the results, other than Eupedia's "Distribution of European Y-chromosome DNA (Y-DNA) haplogroups by country in percentage" webpage that i already shared, which is based on a number of genetic studies which you can read here, under "Italy & Greece".Quote:
Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet
I don't think that the artist of the aforementioned painting attempted to realistically represent the people that are mentioned. He probably only introduced the darker-toned figures in order to provide some realism to the parallelization of the Biblical Magi (who would have looked Middle-Eastern) with that of Otto III's representation of provinces. The names of the painting are written in Latin, and thus "Roma" pertains to Italy's Rome, or from a broader perspective, the northern Italian province of the Holy Roman Empire.
The results on there aren't accurate, it is skewed due to lack of data. Surely there is a database of Greek dna somewhere on the internetQuote:
Originally Posted by Demetrios
Why is the German clearly accurate? It is true that they intentionally misportrayed biblical figures to suit an agenda such as jesus but can also be forgiven as they painted him hundred years later with little knowledge of his appearance. However, not sure why they should need to innacurrately portray these groups of people at such a time only 1000 years ago when they were living amongst them for hundreds of years already!
And the 3 magi were sometimes portrayed in a similar tone - https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/...magi-gifts.jpg
Inaccurate is a misnomer. It is simply a statistical approximation which also happens to include subdivisions. Such approximations naturally strive for accuracy, and the more larger and diverse the database, the better the accuracy hypothetically. But objectively the only way to claim actual accuracy would be if we had a database of all the Greek samples throughout the world, which isn't happening anytime soon. Other than that, i quickly went through FTDNA's "Greek DNA Project"'s results (as seen in its chart), and out of the 279 samples that are listed without counting the Ungrouped and XXother or unknown originXX divisions, we get 39 samples or 13.98% downstream of I2-P37, 26 samples or 9.32% downstream of I-CTS10228 (I2a-Din), with 10 samples or 3.58% under the pre-Slavic I-Y18331 and 13 samples or 4.66% under the Slavic branches of I-S17250, I-Y4460, and I-Z17855. There are 3 remaining samples or 1.08% under I-CTS10228, which could end up under any of the two aforementioned I2a-Din subgroups (i doubt they could belong to an unidentified branch).Quote:
Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet
Mate you give too much weight on an artistic representation. I shared my opinion of the artist probably wanting to make some parallelization to the three Biblical Magi who would have had a darker skin tone (the new image you shared is a nice example). Hence probably why the presented sequence of the four figures alternates between two pairs of lighter and darker skin tones; in a way trying to merge his society with that of the Holy Land's. Another hypothesis is that he might wanted to represent all the seemingly possible combinations of the physical characteristics of the citizenry under the Holy Roman Empire, even if the representation is disproportionate realistically. For example, observe that he included two darker skin toned figures with lighter and darker hair, and two lighter skin toned figures with lighter and darker hair. Alternatively and less likely, the artist might have projected "Sclavinia" (Slavic areas) and "Gallia" (France) with darker skin tones subjectively. Who knows, maybe he had Scandinavian characteristics and was surrounded by a society with predominantly Scandinavian-type features, with even the slightest difference appearing more intense to his eyes. I say less likely because both the Slavic and French provinces of the Holy Roman Empire would have had people with predominantly light features likewise. These are of course hypotheses. Again, artists don't always strive for realism, and even when they do it is subjective.
Dear Dimitrios or everyone who knows,
Regarding the figure you have in your post from 13-08-20, 09 : 43. I 've taken the 23andme DNA test. Can you propose a deep YDNA test that could find these subclades? Is there any or are these found only in research and not by commercial companies?
Regards
Hello mate and welcome to the forum. The test provided by 23andMe is primarily an autosomal (also known as atDNA) test, namely its results pertain to the ancestry you inherited from the sum of all your ancestors. It also includes Y-DNA and mtDNA minor information, but in order to learn more, additional analysis is required. You have a number of options which i will describe below. Before that, as a side note, Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups/clades/subclades pertain to your patrilineal and matrilineal origin respectively, and are basically genetic trivial information that can help you identify historical populations and understand their movements better, for a personal and collective educational benefit. Here is also a simple image to help you understand the differences between the three terms, https://i.ibb.co/sKGWrcY/Overview-DNA-en-DNA.png. Now let me share the options you have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rum
First and foremost, you have some free options that can give you some additional information and these are Y-DNA subclade predictors, such as the one by Chris Morley (https://ytree.morleydna.com/extractFromAutosomal) and the one by YSEQ (https://cladefinder.yseq.net/). Personally i liked YSEQ's more, since it provided slightly more depth for my case, but try both of them. You have to download your 23andMe raw data and then upload it on the aforementioned websites and you will receive a prediction within a minute or so. Now that is very useful, because when you get this information you can filter through YSEQ's list of single (singleton) and panel SNP tests, focusing on specific downstream analysis. This route is what i personally chose, and essentially saved me a lot of money that would otherwise be spent on tests that provide similar or identical depth.
But this process also has its limitations, because it tries to assign your sample on the already existing Y-tree (part of which is shown on the image you referenced), and isn't focusing on finding your actual terminal SNP. For this you would have to pay more, via an NGS (Next Generation Sequencing) test. There are two types of NGS tests, such as the Big Y of FTDNA or the YElite of FGC, which focus on the genealogically relevant regions of the Y chromosome, and the WGS (Whole Genome Sequencing) tests which as the name suggests read the whole genome, including all of the mtDNA and autosomal DNA. FGC and YSEQ both offer WGS tests, among their other products. Personally i haven't done an NGS test due to my small budget, therefore my knowledge on them is limited.
The MRCA estimate dates are back up at YFull. They have Y18331 and its major subclades forming 2,200 years ago. Weren’t they supposed to shorten these dates? Accurate MRCA dates can point to which historical migration/invasion brought Y18331 to Greece and other south Balkan areas.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y18331/
Yeah, i also saw it days ago. I believe they changed on the 4th, and the note was taken out on the 5th, namely after the limit of 15 days had passed. As for your question, regardless of if this calculation is right or wrong, we should all take note that it isn't meant to be accurate. It is just an estimation, similar to the previous ones. That's why we shouldn't be that much granular in terms of what are just average dates of estimations in the end of the day. If anything, we should be focusing more on the ranges established by these estimations. For example, current estimations give us a range of 1784-2375 ybp for the TMRCA of I-Y3120, while for I-Y18331 a range of 1502-2274 ybp, in order to work out and consider certain hypotheses. The current average estimation for the TMRCA of I-Y18331 is taken from one of its subclades, namely I-A10959 (that also happens to have most of the members under I-Y18331) which has an estimated range of 1675-2676 ybp and an average of 2175 ybp (or through YFull's rounding of numbers, 2200 ybp), and through the rational basis that the father can't be younger than the child this downstream estimation is adopted for all of I-Y18331. Without this approach, the current average of I-Y18331 stands at 1912 ybp, which in any case is also 100 years older than the old average of it being at 1818 ybp. So yes, estimations were pushed back with the new update by some 100 years. Unfortunately the age estimation for the Polish I-Y18331* wasn't published and accounted with the new update.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy
The dates will likely go down once more I-Y23115- and I-A10959- samples get on YFull. The increase did not come from new data, but because the YFull team decided to take into account the number of samples for every branch, giving more weight to branches with more samples. This new approach generally makes sense but for I-Y18331 it further accentuates the impact of the outlier branch on TMRCA calculations. Nonetheless, this skewing effect should only be temporary as data from new samples will balance it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy
[QUOTE=Demetrios;617578]Hello mate and welcome to the forum.
Dear Demetrios, I am aware of the differences between atDNA and YDNA or mtDNA. But your answer is a full answer useful for everybody, I really appreciate it. I was not aware of the free services you mentioned and I thought that deeper YDNA testing was more about STR testing and this information could not be derived from SNP testing. So my question could've been which is the best option for a YDNA STR test, and indeed it seems that FTDNA is a very good option for that!
Thank you once again, a really great answer!
Regards
Thank you. Yes, i haven't done any STR analysis but from what i have seen FTDNA's products are considered the most popular out there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rum
I-Y18331* mutation probable show that source of that mutation is in Poland(based on a new sample from Poland), while brotherly mutation is in Ukraine. Given that White Croats do not bring this mutation in migration to the Balkans it is apparently the earlier departure of part of the tribe from the area of southern Poland towards Ukraine and from these areas, whether in the migrations of the Slavs or earlier through the Greek colonies on the Black Sea, they migrate towards the Greece.
That Polish sample is not that new. We have already touched upon it in this thread some two months ago. He could very well be descended from an Ashkenazim Jewish family for all we know, and thus be related with the hypothesized south-to-north migration of Jewish I-Y23115, though part of a different unidentified subclade of I-Y18331. If in the future we see other Polish Slavic samples sharing this subclade with him, and with an early TMRCA (very important), then it would suggest that it is indeed a local subclade and would further give credit to the hypothesis of I-Y18331 having been formed in Poland before migrating south and east, again possibly with the Celtic, Bastarnae, or Gothic migrations (depending on the actual TMRCA of I-Y18331). If on the other hand we have a good amount of Jewish samples within this subclade, it would suggest that even the supposed Slavs could likely be Slavicized Jews. It's still too early to know for sure. Τake note that Zielinski (the Polish sample's surname) is also a common surname among the Jews of Poland, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zieli%C5%84ski. Right now we only know that there appear to be four subclades under I-Y18331, two of them I-Y18331* (one from Greece, one from Poland), one largely Greek-Jewish, and one Greek-Ukrainian (1150 ybp TMRCA - making the Greek colonies of the Black Sea a highly unlikely source for the spread of the line to the southern Balkans; not only because of its TMRCA, but also due to the lack of Ukrainian samples in I-Y18331 as a whole).Quote:
Originally Posted by hrvat22
You require a high TMRCA Polish clade to deem it "local", but insist on calling I-Y18331 pre-Slavic although though not one of the existing Balkan/Greek subclades predate the Slavic migration.
The Celtic migration 2200-2300 ybp is pretty much out of question with current data, unless you would like to provide a better estimation method than the YFull one. Later migrations, Slavic or pre-Slavic, are among the more plausible possibilities.
An unlikely theory -
Ancient Greece being an old civilisation may have had contact from cucuteni or vinca people, they may have carried this branch of proto i2a-din. Some experts expect i2a to appear in these and many years later become the proto south slavs after mixing with r1a
"The Dispilio Tablet, discovered in 1994 in Dispilio, Kastoria regional unit, Greece."
You refer to further downstream clades that are either exclusively Greek or exclusively southern-Balkan, yet i am referring to the basal subclades of I-Y18331 which i mentioned in my prior post. I-A2512 for example might not be exclusively Greek (aside of the Greek variance within it) but it is almost exclusively southern European. With the notable exception of one Chuvash Turkic family, the rest are either southern Balkan or Ashkenazim Jewish, both of whom have a southern-European/Mediterranean autosomal profile. The serious lack of actual northern Slavic samples within it, in conjunction with the TMRCA shared by its members and their southern profile, suggest that this subclade must have migrated rather quickly to the south where it diversified. Again, it's not only a matter of TMRCA, but its combination with geographic distribution, sample frequency and sample variance. Yes, i would need to wait and see how that Polish I-Y18331* evolves to get a better picture, such as which other samples share the subclade with him, what are their TMRCA, etc..Quote:
Originally Posted by Çerç
Furthermore, I-Y18331 doesn't have to be southern Balkan or Greek in origin (obviously it's not) in order for it to be pre-Slavic (nor did i mention anything about it being local in the context of the southern Balkans). Any of either the Celtic, Bastarnae, Gothic, and other non-Slavic eastern European tribes having it and spreading it, would deem it pre-Slavic.
The Celtic reference that was suggested in my prior post doesn't only pertain to the southern migration of I-Y18331, but also to any possible eastern migration that would explain the few non-Jewish samples of eastern Europe. And aside of that, of course i also mentioned it as a hypothesis for the southern migration of I-Y18331 as well, per the age estimation range (not average) of Y-Full. Just because i mention it doesn't mean that i adopt it. I am also supportive of later migrations, such as the Bastarnae (for some time now) and Gothic (more recently).
Mate, Cucuteni-Trypillia and Vinča people lived in the Neolithic/Eneolithic period, approximately 7700-4750 ybp, and obviously are unrelated to I-Y3120 that formed approximately 3400 ybp and its members share a TMRCA of approximately 2200 ybp. Furthermore, its I-Y81696 sister clade and other upstream clades above I-CTS10228 suggest that I-Y3120 migrated to eastern Europe some time during the Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age, something that is also visible in SNP tracker models that were shared in the past, such as this following one from http://scaledinnovation.com/gg/snpTracker.html, https://i.ibb.co/DC5MZWq/y-DNA-Path-to-I-Y3120-or-I-S20602.png (I-Y3120 and I-S20602 are the same thing, also don't view it as a literal migrational route but just to give you an approximate idea, based on sample distribution and their age estimations).Quote:
Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet
That's not totally accurate. Indeed the Neolithic Balkans were predominantly G2a (some 57%), but we also had some minor I2a presence, though certainly not I-Y3120 which came later. You can see some interesting pie charts in these following Eupedia articles, about Europe in general:Quote:
Originally Posted by toteu
https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/starcevo_culture.shtml
https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/linear_pottery_culture.shtml
https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/megalithic_culture.shtml
https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/funnelbeaker_culture.shtml
Not surprisingly, the Megalithic cultures in western Europe were almost exclusively I (84 samples), while they also had very few H2 (3 samples). I suppose you meant to write, present in central, further west and north-west Europe.
How do we explain the elavated g2 levels in South Italy/Greece/Turkey compared to other regions? Is it possible ancient greeks carried g2 alongside j2a? G2 looks to be wiped out in most of Europe but these regions sometimes have up to 10%Quote:
Originally Posted by Demetrios
They certainly carried G2a, being the predominant haplogroup of the Neolithic farmers who are also responsible for much of their autosomal profile. In terms of samples, we have the Neolithic sample from Kleitos in Kozani being G2a and dated to 4230-3995 BCE. Also, the Minoan from Odigitria in Phaestos being G2a and dated to 2210-1680 BCE. Last, a lesser known one, a medieval Cretan sample from Heraklion being G and dated to the 11th century CE.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet
Did they test yet any examples from ancient Athens, Sparta or Macedonia, I'm referring to the classical Greek period ? I've found articles about Minoan and Mycenaean findings, and that remains of hoplites from Marathon battle have been found but I didn't find anything on y chromosome test for classical Greece. And are there any remains of Spartan warriors ? I'd love to know if they were any different from Perioikoi and Homoios, my educated guess is that it would've been the same but ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Demetrios
No, we don't have samples from Archaic/Classical/Hellenistic Athens, Sparta, or Macedon yet. We do have samples though from the Phocaean Greek colony of Empúries (Spain), published in "The genomic history of the Iberian Peninsula over the past 8000 years (2019)", which included an Aegean cluster (designated as Empúries2) composed of five samples and dated to the Classical (x1), Hellenistic (x2), and Roman (x2) periods. 3/3 males belonged to haplogroup J; namely:Quote:
Originally Posted by Denis87
I8215 - NE_Iberia_Greek (Empúries2) = Female
I8205 - NE_Iberia_Hel (Empúries2) = Y-DNA J
I8208 - NE_Iberia_Hel (Empúries2) = Y-DNA J
I8216 - NE_Iberia_RomP (Empúries2) = Y-DNA J
I8338 - NE_Iberia_RomP (Empúries2) = Female
Furthermore, a lesser known case which i have discussed again in this forum and also includes the aforementioned medieval Cretan sample from Heraklion, is a preliminary presentation that was shown on February 16th 2018 by Nikolaos Psonis. It also included Classical samples (478-430 BCE) from the city of Ambracia, with one male sample being read sufficiently to give us a Y-DNA of R1b1b. You can see it at 15:15 of the presentation. Later on, at 23:52 he shares some details of a future publication which will include additional analysis of the Ambracian samples already shown (since these were just preliminary results), but also analysis of Archaic and/or Classical Corinthian samples. I contacted Psonis in early 2020 asking him for more details of when we can expect the study, and he gave me an approximate range of 2-3 years (back then). So, probably within 2022 we will have it.
Last, there are probably thousands of ancient Greek skeletal remains that are found and stored not just in Greece but abroad as well. Aside of that though, there is also the aspect of quality, with many remains of ancient people lacking a number of alleles, rendering their analysis either difficult, deficient, or impossible. Then there is also the matter of funding and bureaucracy.
Very nice. Looking very forward to the future results and glad to see R1b in ancient Greece.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demetrios
I checked to see the genes of medieval Poles and saw one study, but it didn’t have an aDNA analysis where we could compare modern Greeks to medieval Poles, since Poland may have an important role in the migration of Y3120 subclades. We know Greeks are genetically distant from modern Poles. No I-CTS10228 clades were found in the medieval study, but it was from a limited geographical area and so might have missed them. The study said there was input into medieval Poland from the east.
Let me also remind you of two rumored Mycenaean samples supposedly belonging to R1b. They were first mentioned in Anthrogenica by Ryukendo and Eurogenes (Generalissimo). But again, these are just rumors for the time being, not facts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy
Yeah, it would be nice to have a more elaborate study on the haplogroups of the different periods of Poland (mostly interested about the Iron Age, not really Medieval), with a hefty sample size and from a broad geographical area as you pointed out.
That's not totally accurate either. Regarding the Balkans during ~8000-3000 BCE, i am aware of the following I2a:Quote:
Originally Posted by toteu
I2529 - Bulgaria - 5726-5575 BCE - I2a1b (I-M436)
I2165 - Bulgaria - 3020-2895 BCE - I2a1b1a2a2 (I-Y5606)
Bul4 - Bulgaria - 3012-2900 BCE - I2a1b1a2a2 (I-Y5606)
Bul6 - Bulgaria - 3400-1600 BCE - I2a1b (I-M436)
Bul8 - Bulgaria - 3400-1600 BCE - I2 (I-P215)
I2175 - Bulgaria - 3328-3015 BCE - I2a1b1a2a (I-L701)
I2176 - Bulgaria - 3338-3025 BCE - I2a1b1a2 (I-CTS10057)
I4607 - Serbia/Romania (Iron Gates) - 7340-6640 BCE - I2a (I-S2599)
I4914 - Serbia/Romania (Iron Gates) - 6355-5990 BCE - I2a1b1a2b (I-Z161)
I4915 - Serbia/Romania (Iron Gates) - 6340-5990 BCE - I2a1b (I-M436)
I5401 - Serbia/Romania (Iron Gates) - 7076-6699 BCE - I2a1b2 (I-S2555)
I5402 - Serbia/Romania (Iron Gates) - 6361-6050 BCE - I2a1b1a2 (I-CTS10057)
I5771 - Serbia/Romania (Iron Gates) - 6500-6250 BCE - I2a (I-P37)
I4878 - Serbia/Romania (Iron Gates) - 5995-5710 BCE - I2a1b1 (I-M223)
I5773 - Serbia/Romania (Iron Gates) - 8240-7940 BCE - I* (I-M170*)
I4880 - Serbia/Romania (Iron Gates) - 6000-5725 BCE - I2a1b1a2b (I-Z161)
I4870 - Serbia/Romania (Iron Gates) - 7045-6535 BCE - I2* (I-BY32198*)
I5236 - Serbia/Romania (Iron Gates) - 8290-7825 BCE - I2a1a (I-P37)
VINJ4 - Croatia (Starčevo) - 5600 BCE - I2a1a (I-P37)
I4167 - Croatia - 4790-4558 BCE - I2 (I-P215)
Hungary isn't considered part of the Balkans proper, even though broadly speaking its southern parts are within it. In any case, for the record here are some respective samples from Hungary as well:
M6-116.1 - Hungary (Starčevo) - 5600 BCE - I (I-M170)
I1890 - Hungary - 5100-4750 BCE - I2a (I-CTS2257)
I2752 - Hungary - 3600-3000 BCE - I2a1a1a1 (I-Y3992)
I2753 - Hungary - 3332-2929 BCE - I2a1a1a (I-L158)
I2754 - Hungary - 3337-3024 BCE - I2a (I-P37)
I2755 -Hungary - 3600-3000 BCE - I2a (I-P37)
BAB5 - Hungary - 5050 BCE - I1* (I-Z2699*)
I1905 - Hungary - 4826-4602 BCE - I2a2 (I-L596)
I1495 - Hungary - 4491-4357 BCE - I2a1a (I-P37)
I2789 - Hungary - 3800-3600 BCE - I2a2 (I-BY421)
I2387 - Hungary - 5000-4500 BCE - I2 (I-P215)
I0449 - Hungary - 5000-4500 BCE - I2a1a1b1 (I-Y4213)
I2793 - Hungary - 4444-4257 BCE - I2a (I-CTS10057)
KO1 - Hungary - 5780-5650 BCE - I2a1a (I-P37)
I4971 - Hungary - 5736-5547 BCE - I2a (I-S2599)
I2378 - Hungary - 5300-4900 BCE - I2a1b1 (I-L1228)
I2379 - Hungary - 5209-4912 BCE - I2a1b1a1 (I-CTS10057)
I4188 - Hungary - 5300-4900 BCE - I2a1b1 (I-M223)
I2384 - Hungary - 5302-5057 BCE - I2a2 (I-SK1271)
I3535 - Hungary - 5221-5000 BCE - I2a2 (I-SK1271)
I2375 - Hungary - 5300-4900 BCE - I2a1b1a2a (I-L701)
I2377 - Hungary - 5208-4942 BCE - I2a1b1a2a (I-L701)
In the context of the Balkans more G2a exists as well, though i didn't check specifically for it.
Oh ok, i now see how you meant it. By the way, now that i looked at it quickly i found 22 G2a samples from the Vinča, Starčevo, and Cucuteni-Trypillian cultures between 8000-4800 ybp, not 16 as you have listed, which will surely affect the aforementioned statistics. As for VINJ4, you can see more info about the sample in the "Tracing the genetic origin of Europe's first farmers reveals insights into their social organization" (2015) paper. Specifically press this (an XLS file containing the supplementary datasets will begin downloading), and go to dataset S3 (you have to scroll to the right once you open it since the table is big and the Y-DNA haplogroups column doesn't immediately show).Quote:
Originally Posted by toteu
Another man with a Jewish surname was found in I-Y23115, the “Jewish” subbranch in Y18331. There are quite a number of males who are either confirmed or suspected to be in that group. As we know, they are under A10959 and distantly related to Y66192, the “south Balkan” branch below A10959. It’s very interesting to me because I grew up in a Jewish neighborhood and had many Jewish friends.
I made an account for the sole purpose of reading about this haplogroup as I have the I2 haplogroup myself. My Dad is Spanish/French Basque/Native American So I'm trying to figure out how i got this haplogroup. So what's the general consensus on I2's origin as of 2021?
Native European, first human haplogroup to live in Europe was haplogroup I ... for more you can read Eupedia articles but you won't find that many conclusive answers as technology to test ancient peoples is still new and it will take time ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbalz
7000 BC the main Ydna in the Northern Balkans was I2a1 and J2 in Southern Balkans
You trust the Y-full dating method too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Çerç
First of all give many times ranges 1000 years apart.
Secondly it never got proven to be correct.
Thirdly is not based on hard science, like carbon dating can be said is.
Nice to see you take a break from using and misinterpreting YFull dates on that sci-fi Albanian thread you opened, to criticize YFull dating here where you don't like it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Parapolitikos
There is a new Hungarian I-Y3120* sample on the ytree (future new subclade BY154615).
Attachment 12738
Does this new sample add anything meaningful to the debate regarding the place of origin of CTS10228 and its route to the Balkans ?