How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

@Bachus,

Here is the text from DAI:

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Kloukas and Lobelos and Kosentzis and Mouchlo and Chrobatos, and two sisters, Touga and Bouga

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You dropped the most important name: Chrobatos.

The Lusatian Sorbs have a legend about a wizzard called Krabat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krabat

Maybe Lusatian Sorbs have the "Iranian or Turkic" origin too? What do you think?

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Originally Posted by hrvat22

It is possible that Croats in the seventh century came from Africa to Croatia, therefore you have no historical and genetic data to confirm your claims or to translate you talk fairytales without proof.

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Traces of non-Slavic proto-Croatians are probably high percentage of mongoloid haplogroup Q in the islands Korčula and Hvar.
In Korčula and Hvar exist also Asiatic mt DNA.

hr.metapedia.org/wiki/Genomi_neslavenskih_Hrvata

http://hr.metapedia.org/wiki/Mitohon...plogrupe_J_i_T

@ Wonomyro

Krabat is not related with Croatians, of course that Lusatian Serbs don't have Turkic or Iranic origin.

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Originally Posted by Bachus

Traces of non-Slavic proto-Croatians are probably high percentage of mongoloid haplogroup Q in the islands Korčula and Hvar.
In Korčula and Hvar exist also Asiatic mt DNA.

hr.metapedia.org/wiki/Genomi_neslavenskih_Hrvata

http://hr.metapedia.org/wiki/Mitohon...plogrupe_J_i_T

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Please, @Bachus, stop behave like an evil little gnome.

There are no "mongoloid" haplogroups. Do you think that you are going to "discredit" Croats with your racist prejudices?

The reputation of your "source" is trash. Don't provoke me to call moderator.

Anyway, how could one of many populated Croatian islands explain origin of Croats as a whole?

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Originally Posted by Bachus

@ Wonomyro

Krabat is not related with Croatians, of course that Lusatian Serbs don't have Turkic or Iranic origin.

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Krabat is typical germanized archaic form of Croatian ethnonym.

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Originally Posted by Bachus

Traces of non-Slavic proto-Croatians are probably high percentage of mongoloid haplogroup Q in the islands Korčula and Hvar.
In Korčula and Hvar exist also Asiatic mt DNA.

hr.metapedia.org/wiki/Genomi_neslavenskih_Hrvata

http://hr.metapedia.org/wiki/Mitohon...plogrupe_J_i_T

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No, Croats come from White Croatia.

Until today it is not denied with historical record and genetics and this is the only truth for the time being. Sorry.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ats-to-Croatia

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De administrando imperio..From the Croats who came to Dalmatia, one part separated, and occupied Illyricum (Illurikon) and Panonian (Pannonian),

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It encompassed the northern part of present-day Albania, much of Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Montenegro, Kosovo and Serbia, thus covering an area significantly larger than the current Croatian region of Dalmatia.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatia_(Roman_province)

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The province comprised Illyria/Dalmatia and Pannonia. Illyria included the area along the east coast of the Adriatic Sea and its inland mountains. With the creation of this province it came to be called Dalmatia. It was in the south, while Pannonia was in the north. Illyria/Dalmatia stretched from the River Drin (in modern northern Albania) to Istria (Croatia) and the River Sava in the north. The area roughly corresponded to modern northern Albania, Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegovina and coastal Croatia.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyri...oman_province)

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Pannonia was an ancient province of the Roman Empire bounded north and east by the Danube, coterminous westward with Noricum and upper Italy, and southward with Dalmatia and upper Moesia. Pannonia was located over the territory of the present-day western Hungary, eastern Austria, northern Croatia, north-western Serbia, northern Slovenia, western Slovakia and northern Bosnia and Herzegovina.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonia

What the island of Hvar and Korcula have with Illyricum, Roman Dalmatia and Panonia.?

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Originally Posted by hrvat22

No, Croats come from White Croatia.

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Mongoloid haplogroup Q in the Hvar and Korčula came from White Croatia, is not it? :thinking:

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Originally Posted by Bachus

Mongoloid haplogroup Q in the Hvar and Korčula came from White Croatia, is not it? :thinking:

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Croatian E1b types comes from Albania, but Croats did not come from Albania they came from White Croatia. Do you understand now?

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Originally Posted by Bachus

Mongoloid haplogroup Q in the Hvar and Korčula came from White Croatia, is not it? :thinking:

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In every forum I've stumbled upon, there is always a group of Serbs who never miss to mention haplogroup Q on Hvar island suggesting that Croats are of Avaric, Turkic, Mongol of whatever exotic origin, but not Slavic.

Even a person with a lower then average IQ can realize how rediculous that claims are, but they just don't give up...

Is that something in the water or...?

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Originally Posted by Wonomyro

Anyway, how could one of many populated Croatian islands explain origin of Croats as a whole?

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In the twilight zone, everything is possible.

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Originally Posted by hrvat22

Croatian E1b types comes from Albania, but Croats did not come from Albania they came from White Croatia. Do you understand now?

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What about E1b in Austria, Germany, Russia, Ukraine, Poland... whether E1b is this countries also came from Albania?

I understand origin of E1b in the Balkans, but I don't understand origin of Asiatic haplogroup Q in Hvar and Korčula. :thinking:

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Originally Posted by Bachus

What about E1b in Austria, Germany, Russia, Ukraine, Poland... whether E1b is this countries also came from Albania?

I understand origin of E1b in the Balkans, but I don't understand origin of Asiatic haplogroup Q in Hvar and Korčula. :thinking:

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Perhaps they came to sunny islands on vacation before 20,000 years, genetics will in the future tell about migration of these people and then we will bring conclusion, for now we still know nothing. Perhaps it is a branch from Poland as there exist some Q haplotypes.

Regarding E1b same thing, genetic will say about migration of every branch E1b and then we will bring conclusion, considering that history records mention arrival of Vlachs to Croatia and that there are similarities between Croatian and Albanian types E1b we can assume that they come from direction of Albania, in any case the genetic will say what is true.

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Originally Posted by Garrick

A lot of people want that I-CTS10228 carriers are Thracian origin, but in reality this assumption cannot be supported.

About 1000 BC and earlier I-CTS10228 carriers were in the north of Europe, most probably in the Baltic region of today's Germany, it is time before than they arrived in upper Vistula region and surrounding.

They were Mesolithic survivors, whose ancestors long time ago were much more widespread in Europe, but unfortunately they had bottleneck.

Irony of destiny, it is possible R1a tribes pushed them to the south, it means in that time they were antagonists.

Gubin culture of Jastorf group probably were culture of these people, I1 carriers had influx and probably Germanic language is result of these impact.

And Croats are far from these areas, Croatian scientists highlight that Croat is Iranian name and original Croats were Iranian, some other scientists claim some other origin (Turkish, Bulgarian etc.) but it doesn't matter areas of original Croats are very very far from areas where I-CTS10228 lived and moved.

So, I-CTS10228 carriers were not Thracian, Illyiran, Slavic, Iranian Croat etc.

I-CTS10228 carriers were European Mesolithic survivors and they became Germanized due to impact of I1 carriers.

Bastarnae were the most likely bearers these genetics (and maybe to a lesser extent Scirii), only later when they moved from the Vistula river to the east they came in contact and mixed with Dacians/Thracins (they first entered in Balkans 179 BC) and Sarmatians, and centuries after that, after Zarubintsy culture, their descendants participated in Kiev culture and ethnogenesis of Slavs.

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I think you are half right about the Bastarnae: they weren’t bearers of I-CTS10228, BUT they are the cause of the mutation of CTS4002 that was carried by Dacian-Getae people. If you look at the YDNA Tree of I-L621 that has CTS4002 as first mutation followed by CTS-10228 the following, and their TRMCA (combined with history that we know, and some intuition, of course), it kind of make sense, don’t you think?


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Originally Posted by Dumidre

I think you are half right about the Bastarnae: they weren’t bearers of I-CTS10228, BUT they are the cause of the mutation of CTS4002 that was carried by Dacian-Getae people. If you look at the YDNA Tree of I-L621 that has CTS4002 as first mutation followed by CTS-10228 the following, and their TRMCA (combined with history that we know, and some intuition, of course), it kind of make sense, don’t you think?
Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

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No.How do You know that mutation CTS-4002 was carried by Dacian-Getae people?
Intuition ?

In my opinion I2a Din comes from Cimmerians... name Cimmerians is thought to origin from Gomer and are thus related to other proto-Germans I2a2 and I1

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Thraco-Cimmerian is a historiographical and archaeological term, composed of the names of the Thracians and the Cimmerians. It refers to 8th to 7th century BC cultures that are linked in Eastern Central Europe and in the area west of the Black Sea.

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https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...-Cimmerian.png

After being pushed from Black sea shores by Scythians (R1b people in my opinion ..unlike to G2a Sarmatians) they partly migrated into lands of Thracians and Veneti (closely related satem speaking people...Thracians being closer in language to proto-Balts and Veneti being proto-Slavs)...
they mixed thus in both pre-Slavic Balkan tribes (Thracians) and into proto-Slavic (Veneti)..

expansion happened 2800 ybp from area north of Black sea... part of Cimmerians also crossed over Caucasus and went to Asia minor and probably are nowadays merged into Kurds

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Originally Posted by howyesno

In my opinion I2a Din comes from Cimmerians... name Cimmerians is thought to origin from Gomer and are thus related to other proto-Germans I2a2 and I1


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...-Cimmerian.png

After being pushed from Black sea shores by Scythians (R1b people in my opinion ..unlike to G2a Sarmatians) they partly migrated into lands of Thracians and Veneti (closely related satem speaking people...Thracians being closer in language to proto-Balts and Veneti being proto-Slavs)...
they mixed thus in both pre-Slavic Balkan tribes (Thracians) and into proto-Slavic (Veneti)..

expansion happened 2800 ybp from area north of Black sea... part of Cimmerians also crossed over Caucasus and went to Asia minor and probably are nowadays merged into Kurds

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"Virtually all Dinaric I2a falls under the L147.2 branch, and the majority to the S17250 ramification, who descend from a common patrilinear ancestor who lived only 1,800 years ago."
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...I2_Y-DNA.shtml

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Originally Posted by Dumidre

CTS10228 is at least 2000 years old... I-Y3548 (age: 1458ybp)...

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Wrong: I-CTS10228 was formed circa 5200 YBP, while had TMRCA circa 3800 YBP

Wrong: I-Y3548/S17250 was formed circa 2300 YBP, while had TMRCA circa 1850 YBP

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Originally Posted by Garrick

And Croats are far from these areas, Croatian scientists highlight that Croat is Iranian name and original Croats were Iranian, some other scientists claim some other origin (Turkish, Bulgarian etc.) but it doesn't matter areas of original Croats are very very far from areas where I-CTS10228 lived and moved.

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Originally Posted by Bachus

Proto-Croatians were not Slavs, they were of Iranic or Turkic origin, word Croat is not of Slavic origin and many Croatian historians say that.

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Shouldn't such posts get infractions? Firstly they lie White Croats did not live in the parts where was I-CTS10228 and claim were not Slavs, then they intentionally misinterpret theories of the Croatian ethnonym with Croatian ethnogenesis, as well mention Turkish, Bulgarian fringe theories. All in intentions to make an ethnic group less Slavic i.e. specific haplogroup less Croatian, and more Serbian. This is political propaganda.

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Originally Posted by Dumidre

I think you are half right about the Bastarnae: they weren’t bearers of I-CTS10228, BUT they are the cause of the mutation of CTS4002 that was carried by Dacian-Getae people. If you look at the YDNA Tree of I-L621 that has CTS4002 as first mutation followed by CTS-10228 the following, and their TRMCA (combined with history that we know, and some intuition, of course), it kind of make sense, don’t you think?

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No, it does not make any sense. How could they be the cause of the I-CTS4002 mutation when Bastarnae are reported to live between 200 BC-300 AD, while I-CTS4002 was formed 5500 YBP, had TMRCA 5200 YBP? Also, there's no evidence whatsoever that Bastarnae were "most likely bearers of these genetics".

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Originally Posted by Bachus

What about E1b in Austria, Germany, Russia, Ukraine, Poland... whether E1b is this countries also came from Albania?

I understand origin of E1b in the Balkans, but I don't understand origin of Asiatic haplogroup Q in Hvar and Korčula. :thinking:

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Some scholar would have proposed an Avar remnant pushed by Slavs in their advance - I found that in a blog citing < 10% Y-Q and mt-F in Hvar, but it did not give the scholar's name.

An I2a1b carrying IE proto-slav speaker had great genetic success 1800-2000 years ago. I2a is native European to the Mesolithic but that does not mean the males who carried I2a1b to success were Mesolithic survivors. I believe it is highly likely they were a tribe lead by a man who found himself born amongst whatever of the various IE proto-slavs. He was probably an important leader with many sons. The TMRCA is too similar to equally successful R1a clades involved in the same epochs:

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Czechs R1a belongs in majority to M458, with subclades such as L1029>YP1703 (TMRCA 1800 years), L260>YP256>YP654 (TMRCA 2200 years), L260>YP256>YP254>Y2905 (TMRCA 1850 years) and L260>YP1337 (TMRCA 1750 years). Other R1a clades found in the Czech Republic include Z280>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP951 (TMRCA 2500 years) CTS1211>Y35>YP4278 (TMRCA 1850 years), some Z92 and Z93, as well as the Germanic L664 (S3479>S3485>S3477>YP942; TMRCA 1800 years). The age of these subclades concord with the historical Slavic expansion during the Late Antiquity and Early Middle Ages.

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Originally Posted by MOESAN

Some scholar would have proposed an Avar remnant pushed by Slavs in their advance - I found that in a blog citing < 10% Y-Q and mt-F in Hvar, but it did not give the scholar's name.

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On the Serbian genetic portal or on some forum (I'm not sure) I read that Q in Hvar is not Avar branch, so probably Y-Q in Hvar has nothing to do with Avars.

I'm guessing we're a fairly pure Slavic tribe (Croats) because I2 seems to be more common in northern Slavs than people assume, not to mention the mentions of White Croats as part of the Antes confederation, as well as numerous other sources.

I believe the way it is written on this sites explanation of Haplogroup I2 makes sense, that I2 was a minority that grouped with R1a people to create the Proto-Slavs. The more southern of these Proto-Slav tribes probably carrying more I2a than the tribes further North. This explains why other Balkan people (Albanians and Greeks) are rather different genetically to Croats, Serbs and Bosnians. Even Slovenes are a bit different, and they supposedly descent from the Venedians, a different community of Slavs.

However the sheer amount of I2a still seems staggering, I mean what are the odds out of all the Slavs that the minority would be the conquerors of the Balkan peninsula? I feel that's what makes the Illyrian theory more favoured, because its simpler to think we were just always here. But again, I recall numerous sources that speak of the Balkans being heavily depopulated due to constant war and disease.

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Originally Posted by Bachus

Mongoloid haplogroup Q in the Hvar and Korčula came from White Croatia, is not it? :thinking:

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What you say is too simplified, Q1b we can see in Slavic world, among Poles, Ukrainians etc.

Source of this haplogroup were Gokturks, people who linked cultures in the wider areas from Far East to Europe.

Khazars, Avars and possible Bulgarians brought this haplogroup, you can see path.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...und_650_AD.png

In this moment we don't know how carriers of this haplogroup entered among Slavs, maybe they were Avars?, Khazars?, any tribe later Slavicized?, we can speculate but we don't know.

I'd wager that it came from the North and that the current peak in Bosnians has arisen due to their isolation in the mountains.

http://blog.vayda.pl/wp-content/uplo...p-1024x706.jpg

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Originally Posted by JajarBingan

I'd wager that it came from the North and that the current peak in Bosnians has arisen due to their isolation in the mountains.

http://blog.vayda.pl/wp-content/uplo...p-1024x706.jpg

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Croats from Bosnia have the most I2a I-S17250, then follows Croats from Dalmatia, then Bosniaks, Serbians etc. This is if we follow official scientific papers.

Why Croats of Bosnia have most I2a I-S17250, this is because Croats as Catholics in Turkish time do not mix with Orthodox and Muslims and at that time no one goes to Catholicism but it was opposite so Croats at that time kept Croatian genetics that was there before arrival of the Turks and Vlachs to Bosnia. It's interesting to see 30% I2a in Bosnian Serbs which says that they are much more mixed with Orthodox Vlachs, Albanians, possible Romanians, Bulgarians and Greeks(we'll see in the future).

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turk...GeneticsEn.htm