How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

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14-08-19, 14:46
Aspurg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miroslav

It is not true. That group was first mentioned in the 13th-14th century (Late Middle Ages), while the mentioned connection to scholarly invented so-called "Nabian Serbs" is part of one of the fringe theories which tried to trace their ancestry to the Early Middle Ages.

Some things other people at poreklo found:
Czech wiki:
"Velký význam však sehrálo přijetí Nábských Srbů (Chodů) Boleslavem I. za strážce západní hranice."
Also here: http://www.pismak.cz/print.php?data=piece&id=426346

https://digilib.phil.muni.cz/bitstre...pdf?sequence=1
RUDOLF TUREK
ÚZEMN Í PŘEDPOKLADY VZNIK U MORAVSKÝC H ÚDĚLNÝCH KNÍŽECTV Í, 1971
It is also no accident that the primitive shapes
of ear-rings with various trinkets found at Věstonice have some analogues in South Bohemia
(Lékařova Lhota) and also in the southern most tip of the territory of the Serbians living along the Naab River (Matzhausen).

http://stare.luzice.cz/clv/2008/clv_2008-07-08.pdf
"Při stopování dávných severobavorských Slovanů (nejen tzv. Nábských Srbů) narážíme na potíže nejen v tom, že nejsme schopni říci nic o etnické příslušnosti a jazyce, jímž v okolí Řezna mluvili lidé pohřbení s nádobami zdobenými vlnovkou vyrytou hřebenem, ale také ve skutečnosti, že místní jména zčásti či úplně slovanského původu, resp. se složkou Windisch, Wind-, se zhusta vyskytují ve výše položených končinách, méně příznivých zemědělství, v nichž nám zcela chybějí archeologické nálezy slovanského charakteru (to se týká i našeho Chebska."

http://stare.luzice.cz/clv/2008/clv_2008-07-08.pdf
Poučná je též kapitola Sen o životě bez Němců. Zde je uváděn i požadavek na připojení části území srbských Glomačů a v české historii téměř zcela opomíjených Nábských Srbů na jih od Šumavy."

These are all Czech sources.

In Southern Croatia I-PH908 is vast majority of I-Y3120: 96/220 43,64% out of 54.5 % for I-Y3120. In Northern Croatian (Kajkavian area) sample I-PH908 is just 24/220 10,90%.
Another subclade common in Southern Croatia is I-Y56203 (dys19=14), found in Serb clan of Niksici from Tara (not to be confused with Niksici proper who are I-Y52621), as well in some East Herzegovinian samples. It has been hypothesized they might be related to Zachumlians. YF03590 at YFull is a Pole Cisowsky 1500 ybp away. 11 of these in South Croatia. 4 in the North, 7 East, 1 West, 5 in Center. I-Y56203 is under PH908 (as is I-Y52621) though it isn't yet at YFull because there are problems with reading PH908 in BigY.

Along Dalmatian coast there were Travunia, Zachumlia and Pagania. According to the first degree historical source, Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus, Narentines (Pagania), Zachumlians, Travunians are explicitly of Serbian origin descending from those Serbs who settled the area in time of Heraclius. This fits into the spike of I-PH908 in Croats from there. I-Y56203 alone makes up 5 % of Southern Croats.

The area where Portifogenitus places the settlement of Croats is of course to the West, there we see spike of R1a, especially R-Y2608 in Chakavian Croats. As you know there is no clear demarcation line between the Slovenian and Croatian Kajkavian. And Croatian Shtokavian is very similar to Serbian. Chakavian is spoken by Croats from Gradisce, Austria etc. Oldest inscriptions in Croatian are Chakavian: Valun tablet from 11th century, Baška tablet from 1100.

1. Valun is on the Cres island, where in a sample of 99 (Barac et al. 2003 - island isolates study), R1a was 56.6 %, around half were M458, half M558*. I-Y3120 is 3 % there.
2. Baška is on the island of Krk, there in another study (Barac et al. 2003 - Y chromosome STRs in Croatians) R1a was at 37.8 %, hg "I" (might include some I1s etc) was at 28.4 %.

These facts give better insight as to what the original White Croatian haplogroup might be, R-Y2608 being the number one, but also there are some other branches such as R-Y132940 who likely migrated with them.

I know it must be convenient for many Croats to lump some Narentine I-Y3120's into White Croats, but Narentines were not White Croats, and Portifogenitus, who of any sources we have is the most competent to speak about their origins because he must have gained this information first hand from their chiefs, said they were of Serb origin. But I think there likely are I-Y3120 White Croatian clades too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miroslav

It sounds far-fetched. The presence of the Serbs was not brief because are mentioned there in the 7th century and according to historical sources they previously were subjects of the Franks. The refusal to connect Serbs with the Sorbs is problematic because the Lusatian tribes are mentioned only in subsequent centuries, some consider them as Serbian tribes, or Serbian assimilated, while others as separate, so either have direct or close ancestry and relationship, and that's based on historical, archaeological and linguistical evidence. The presence of PH908 is required, and not only, but I2 overall, considering the proximity and relation with Lusatian Slavs and yet that is not the case with contemporary Sorbs. The issue with the Sorbs is that they are the Slavs who have the lowest frequency of I2 (4%). That cannot be ignored, that's a fact, evidence, which must be taken into consideration regarding the regional ethnogenesis through history.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17078035

Regional study of Czechs, in Western Czech R., in Klatovy I-P37 is 14.6 %. Klatovy are one of Chodove centers.

Some of opinions I saw from some Serbs also claim Sorbs descend from tre Lusatians and Milchani tribes who belonged to a different archeological culture and only later joined the Serb tribal union. According to Sedov (and other Russian and German archeologists) Luzichani and Milchani belonged to Tornov archeological culture whereas Serbs who lived in modern Czech-German border belonged to Ryusen culture.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miroslav

Yes, it's a possibilty, but considering the evidence, it does not look like a subclade or haplogroup representing "proto-Serbs" at all. It should be R1a-M458, which is found among both Sorbs and Serbs.

Now that you mention it some Serbs are R-L260 and not only that they are R-Y2905+. I took a look at Sorb R1a's and the dominant Sorb haplotype is basically certainly R-Y2905 whose TMRCA is 2000 ybp, so there might be some connection there. There is in Croats R-Y132940 cluster but they are Y2905-.

R-M458 is 4700 years old and is found in many peoples. Among Serbs M458 is less common than Z280, and under M458, R-YP417 is the most common sublcade. Then there are two clusters of R-A11460, one of whom are connected to the Slavic Berziti tribe in Central Balkans.
14-08-19, 15:27
hrvat22

Quote:

HiveMindTerror

Quote:

I've also read that most South Slavs were probably settlers from many small tribes that scattered across the Balkans, and that "Croats" and "Serbs" emerged from among these many tribes to gradually become the most powerful and relevant.

Who are Serbs or Croats is determined by historical records, and that historical records proves or refute genetics.

Today Serbs and Croats share mostly the same Slavic Genetics which has one source and the same path, but the Serbs and Croats at the source(original homeland) are not the same nor they share the same path.

Therefore originally only one tribe coming to Roman Dalmatia if we follow genetics and there are Serbs or Croats or someone else. Serbs have their own historical path and this is an area of Lusatia, Greece (Thessaly) and Roman Dalmatia, none of today's Serbs or Croats have this genetic path or if they have that's a couple percent. Everything else is logic.
14-08-19, 16:19
hrvat22

Quote:

Aspurg

Quote:

1. Valun is on the Cres island, where in a sample of 99 (Barac et al. 2003 - island isolates study), R1a was 56.6 %, around half were M458, half M558*. I-Y3120 is 3 % there.
2. Baška is on the island of Krk, there in another study (Barac et al. 2003 - Y chromosome STRs in Croatians) R1a was at 37.8 %, hg "I" (might include some I1s etc) was at 28.4 %.

These facts give better insight as to what the original White Croatian haplogroup might be, R-Y2608 being the number one, but also there are some other branches such as R-Y132940 who likely migrated with them.

The heart of the medieval Croatian state is in Dalmatia and there is the epicenter of I2a S17250

Y chromosomal heritage of Croatian population and its island isolates, 2003.

Quote:

R1a-SRY10831
Croatian mainland 0.339 37 0.257–0.433
Krk 0.378 28 0.276–0.493
Brač(Dalmatia) 0.265 13 0.162–0.403
Hvar(Dalmatia) 0.087 8 0.045–0.162
Korčula(Dalmtia) 0.201 27 0.142–0.0277

Quote:

I-M170
Croatian mainland 0.376 41 0.291–0.470
Krk 0.284 21 0.194–0.396
Brač 0.551 27 0.413–0.682
Hvar 0.659 60 0.557–0.749
Korčula 0.537 72 0.453–0.620

Quote:

Croatian national reference Y-STR haplotype database 2011.

West Croatia(Istria, Lika, Croatian Littoral(Primorje)

Out of 220 people 81 person have I2a1 and 42 person have R1a.

Quote:

I know it must be convenient for many Croats to lump some Narentine I-Y3120's into White Croats, but Narentines were not White Croats, and Portifogenitus, who of any sources we have is the most competent to speak about their origins because he must have gained this information first hand from their chiefs, said they were of Serb origin. But I think there likely are I-Y3120 White Croatian clades too.

In that area up to Montenegro and southern Serbia historical records also find and Croatians.

You always must go from beginning and historical source, Serbs coming to Roman Dalmatia from Lusatia to Greece and from there to the eastern part of Roman Dalmatia, there is no genetics that proves that path.
From that area(Narentines etc) are mentioned "Litzike" wich originate in Vistula area but Serbs the not coming from that area and it says that someone else is in that area.

Quote:

1. Valun is on the Cres island, where in a sample of 99 (Barac et al. 2003 - island isolates study), R1a was 56.6 %, around half were M458, half M558*. I-Y3120 is 3 % there.

Y chromosomal heritage of Croatian population and its island isolates, 2003.

"A detailed description of sampling procedurefor 74 examinees from the island of Krk, 49 from Brač, 91from Hvar and 134 from Korčula was reported in ourprevious paper."

Where did you find data for Cres?
14-08-19, 17:32
Aspurg

1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by hrvat22

In that area up to Montenegro and southern Serbia historical records also find and Croatians.

Yeah, I remember you quoting those men with the added name Hrvat from 1526, while it has been explained by experts (author of the translation included) what it means: captured slaves from the contemporary area of vilayet named Croat/Hrvat, which was way to the West.. Those men of Dalmatian Zagora origin cannot count as any sort of presence.. Thats going in direction of HiveMindTerror saying Croat name "Ante" has something to do with Antes :laughing:, while it is ofc a shortened Christian name Antun->Ante, Josip->Jozo etc. I don't go into such "discussions" other than to point the obvious facts and I told you back then what they are regarding those men with added name "Hrvat", same as other people with "names" identical to other administrative Ottoman units..

Quote:

Originally Posted by hrvat22

You always must go from beginning and historical source, Serbs coming to Roman Dalmatia from Lusatia to Grecce and from there to the eastern part of Roman Dalmatia, there is no genetics that proves that path.

I-Z16983 in Chodove Czechs, German and various Serbs.
Greek from Corfu IN11576 Z16983+
I-Z16983>A493>A8740 Germans from Unterafferbach, Clausthal-Zellerfeld and Rzepin Poland
Another Pole I-Z16983+ from Lubola, predicted A493-.
One Bulgarian from SE of Bulgaria near border with Turkey (Topolovgrad) predicted as A493+.
There is also one Ukrainian predicted as A493+, Z16983+ confirmed.

So you see I-Z16983 does all that, potential links with tribal Serbs from Western Czechs, also some other people around there. Various Serbs belonging to it, as well as importantly one Greek and one Bulgarian near Greek/Turkish border.
Thus far of "White-Serbian" clades I-Z16983 seems obvious as might R-Y2905 shared by some Serbs and Sorbs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hrvat22

From that area(Narentines etc) are mentioned "Litzike" wich originate in Vistula area but Serbs the not coming from that area and it says that someone else is in that area.

Knez Mihajlo/Michael Visevic as ruler of Zachumlia was reportedly of Vistula roots but it is not said explicitly he is descended of Zachumlians who lived there. Either way I-Y56203 has some presence there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hrvat22

Y chromosomal heritage of Croatian population and its island isolates, 2003.

"A detailed description of sampling procedurefor 74 examinees from the island of Krk, 49 from Brač, 91from Hvar and 134 from Korčula was reported in ourprevious paper."

Where did you find data for Cres?

Quote:

Originally Posted by hrvat22

The heart of the medieval Croatian state is in Dalmatia and there is the epicenter of I2a S17250

Y chromosomal heritage of Croatian population and its island isolates, 2003.

There was actually a 2nd study from 2016, not 2003 (older one was from 2003), where Cres is included
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...002/ajhb.22876

Supplementary info, table5 contains SNP calls

Yes I is high in 2003 in Brac (55.1 %), Hvar (65.9 %), Korcula (53.7). But look at this map of Pagania (settled by Narentians), all of these islands are Paganian.
Attachment 11301

On the other hand in Cres 56.6 % R1a, 3 % I2a, also in Dugi Otok 31.8 % R1a, 11.4 % I2a.

In these northern Dalmatian areas, Chakavian areas you see more R1a. In Paganian, Zachumlian areas you see dominance of I2a. Now per Porfirogenitus river Cetina was demarcation line between Croats and Serbs and Pagania falls outside this line to the South. And he says of their origin what he says.

On some other more Northern islands you see R1a matching I2a.
Ugljan - 25 % R1a, 25 % I2a
Pasman - 38 % R1a, 38 % I2a

On Southern Lastovo, Vis I2a is stronger, only on the Pag island closer to coast I2a manages to beat R1a.

As I've said I'm sure there are Croatian I-Y3120's (I see some interesting clades for that) but the fact that R1a is so strong in Chakavian areas and that earliest Croatian inscriptions are Chakavian cannot be denied. You think Old Croats when they migrated spoke 3 languages? If not it's clear who is favorite for the original Croat language and what hg is most associated with it... Especially going by Cres sample.. :good_job:

Btw I think I found hg of the original Croats, that is pre-Slavic Croat Croats who are of Alan Iranian/Caucasian origin. :cool-v: I couldn't find that for Serbs. There is one clade but present more in Croats, might be more likely Iazigian.

That's something many Croats desire isn't it, such link?:smile: I think that was speculated for many decades.
14-08-19, 18:58
hrvat22

Quote:

Aspurg

Quote:

Yeah, I remember you quoting those men with the added name Hrvat from 1526, while it has been explained by experts (author of the translation included) what it means: captured slaves from the contemporary area of vilayet named Croat/Hrvat, which was way to the West.. Those men of Dalmatian Zagora origin cannot count as any sort of presence.. Thats going in direction of HiveMindTerror saying Croat name "Ante" has something to do with Antes :laughing:, while it is ofc a shortened Christian name Antun->Ante, Josip->Jozo etc. I don't go into such "discussions" other than to point the obvious facts and I told you back then what they are regarding those men with added name "Hrvat", same as other people with "names" identical to other administrative Ottoman units..

Derviş Mehmed Zillî (25 March 1611 – 1682), known as Evliya Çelebi mention Croats in central Montenegro and in surrounding area of Gacko in eastern Herzegovina.

" Personal names Hrvatin(Croatin) (since 1301), Hrvajin(since 1475), Hrvo (since 1475), Hrvoje (since 1475) and Hrvat( Croat) (since 1475) in the Middle Ages
we find all over eastern Herzegovina: from Bisce near Mostar, Zažablje, Popovo,
Površi and Trebinje to Biograd near Nevesinje, Stolac and Plane near
Bileća(border with Montenegro)

In the Turkish time of slaves or captured Croats there are at the same time and some "gulam" muslim and about 150 thousand Slovenians(if I remember well, large number surely) taken into slavery and there is not a single "gulam" Slovenian at that list(1526) or later meaning that these Croats but also and the Bosnians are indigenous there. Are they indeed captured in their homeland they probably are and that homeland is in the area of southern Serbia.

A large part of the Bosnian army are "gulam" Croatian while Aali (1542.-1599.) (Turkish historian) says following for all of them "gulams" "With regard to the tribe of Croats attributed to the river Bosna, their significance is reflected in the happy spirit; they are known by Bosnia and they have a name from Bosna river.

Otherwise, I already answered that "merd" and "gulam" may be synonymous ie that word "merd" would mean forgotten slave origin. From where these (Bosna merd) Bosniaks came to Bosnia as slaves?

Quote:

So you see I-Z16983 does all that, potential links with tribal Serbs from Western Czechs, also some other people around there. Various Serbs belonging to it, as well as importantly one Greek and one Bulgarian near Greek/Turkish border.
Thus far of "White-Serbian" clades I-Z16983 seems obvious as might R-Y2905 shared by some Serbs and Sorbs.

There must be an older (ancestor) mutations in the area from where Serbs coming to the Balkans, where are these mutations specifically in which area and which specific mutations are they and where they are in the Balkans.

Quote:

Y chromosomal heritage of Croatian population and its island isolates, 2003.

There was actually a 2nd study from 2016, not 2003 (older one was from 2003), where Cres is included
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...002/ajhb.22876

Supplementary info, table5 contains SNP calls

R1a1a1b1a*‐M558 lineage , where are R1a M458?

Quote:

In these northern Dalmatian areas, Chakavian areas you see more R1a. In Paganian, Zachumlian areas you see dominance of I2a. Now per Porfirogenitus river Cetina was demarcation line between Croats and Serbs and Pagania falls outside this line to the South. And he says of their origin what he says.

Quote:

Yes I is high in 2003 in Brac (55.1 %), Hvar (65.9 %), Korcula (53.7). But look at this map of Pagania (settled by Narentians), all of these islands are Paganian.

As usual you don't listen what I'm talking about, Serbs coming from Lusatia to Greece and from there to Roman Dalmatia. There is no genetics to prove that path. Do you know what the answer is?

Quote:

As I've said I'm sure there are Croatian I-Y3120's (I see some interesting clades for that) but the fact that R1a is so strong in Chakavian areas and that earliest Croatian inscriptions are Chakavian cannot be denied. You think Old Croats when they migrated spoke 3 languages? If not it's clear who is favorite for the original Croat language and what hg is most associated with it... Especially going by Cres sample..

Croats speak one language not three, however we have nothing to discuss when language has nothing to do with origin.

Quote:

Btw I think I found hg of the original Croats, that is pre-Slavic Croat Croats who are of Alan Iranian/Caucasian origin. :cool-v: I couldn't find that for Serbs. There is one clade but present more in Croats, might be more likely Iazigian.

That's something many Croats desire isn't it, such link?:smile: I think that was speculated for many decades.

The Croats might also be of Chinese origin, but for now genetics proves that they are of Slavic Carpathian origin ie White Croatian.
14-08-19, 19:19
Wonomyro

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aspurg

As I've said I'm sure there are Croatian I-Y3120's (I see some interesting clades for that) but the fact that R1a is so strong in Chakavian areas and that earliest Croatian inscriptions are Chakavian cannot be denied. You think Old Croats when they migrated spoke 3 languages? If not it's clear who is favorite for the original Croat language and what hg is most associated with it... Especially going by Cres sample..

Btw I think I found hg of the original Croats, that is pre-Slavic Croat Croats who are of Alan Iranian/Caucasian origin. I couldn't find that for Serbs. There is one clade but present more in Croats, might be more likely Iazigian.

That's something many Croats desire isn't it, such link? I think that was speculated for many decades.

I realy don't get what you want to say with this bunch of Croatian regional samples.

However I must react to nonsense about Croatian dialects. Do you know that, nearly at the time when Croats arrived to Dalmatia (and Panonia and Illyricum), all Slavs still spoke one language? Languages and dialects started to emerge later.

And where did you get an idea that Croats are of "Alan Iranian/Caucasian" origin? There is no hg nor autosomal, nor anthroplological relation to these peoples.

What caused this flood of nonsense about Croats? Was it the information on Chodove origin that doesn't fit into your (Serbian) agenda?
14-08-19, 20:34
Aspurg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonomyro

And where did you get an idea that Croats are of "Alan Iranian/Caucasian" origin? There is no hg nor autosomal, nor anthroplological relation to these peoples.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin...Iranian_theory
Most Croats are not, but certain 5 Croats from the 1100 sample who have a very specific G-L293 haplotype are certainly related to a Slovenian G-L293 at FTDNA (near Croatian border), this haplotype is basically confined to Croats (and this Slovenian near the border). There are various G-L293's that have Sarmanian/Alan origin, and various G-L293 were found in Steppe peoples thus far. Slovenian has 111 STR's and I have just successfully estimated what subclade he is!
There is another J1-Z1828 haplotype which is of certain Sarmatian (because of some people in UK, etc)origin occurring in 4 Croats from the study. But this one might be Iazigian, occurs in one Serb. This clade fits perfectly into some aDNA J1 Sarmatian finds from Caucasus.

There is also a Croat R-Z93>S10438 from Zagreb, but he is likely of Avar origin as this clade has an Avar connection. Interestingly there is also an Avar theory of Croat origin among those isn't it. There was one G-L293 in Avars, however these G-L293 do not exist in Hungarians, Romanians..

I'm not playing games here, any Alano-Sarmatian tribe in my book (and in the books of so many others especially prior to deeper Y-DNA tests) generally has alot more value to it than any random Slavic tribe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonomyro

What caused this flood of nonsense about Croats? Was it the information on Chodove origin that doesn't fit into your (Serbian) agenda?

I mostly copy-pasted opinions of others (mostly from poreklo) who have researched this matter far more than me. But just setting some things straight. It was not me who said that Paganians and others are of Serb origin it was the Porfirogenitus.
14-08-19, 20:57
hrvat22

Quote:

Aspurg

Quote:

I mostly copy-pasted opinions of others (mostly from poreklo) who have researched this matter far more than me. But just setting some things straight. It was not me who said that Paganians and others are of Serb origin it was the Porfirogenitus.

These Serbs mentioned by Porfirogenitus coming from Lusatia and Greece, it means that they do not exist in this area today(if we follow genetics). And Avars are also mentioned in Pannonia but their descendants the not exit in Pannonia. Does not mean if someone is mentioned somewhere that it is there forever. And Croats are mentioned in Illyricum and Pannonia and they are gone, although we have to say that some Croatian (White Croatian)genetics have remained.
14-08-19, 21:52
Wonomyro

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aspurg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin...Iranian_theory
Most Croats are not, but certain 5 Croats from the 1100 sample who have a very specific G-L293 haplotype are certainly related to a Slovenian G-L293 at FTDNA (near Croatian border), this haplotype is basically confined to Croats (and this Slovenian near the border). There are various G-L293's that have Sarmanian/Alan origin, and various G-L293 were found in Steppe peoples thus far. Slovenian has 111 STR's and I have just successfully estimated what subclade he is!
There is another J1-Z1828 haplotype which is of certain Sarmatian (because of some people in UK, etc)origin occurring in 4 Croats from the study. But this one might be Iazigian, occurs in one Serb. This clade fits perfectly into some aDNA J1 Sarmatian finds from Caucasus.

Are you trying to conclude something about the origin of the whole nation based on coulple of exotic samples found in the present day population? Your methodology does not seem to be very convincing...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aspurg

There is also a Croat R-Z93>S10438 from Zagreb, but he is likely of Avar origin as this clade has an Avar connection. Interestingly there is also an Avar theory of Croat origin among those isn't it. There was one G-L293 in Avars, however these G-L293 do not exist in Hungarians, Romanians..

Really? You find ONE Avar in Zagreb?!!! Great!!! Who can ever doubt that Croats are of Avar origin?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aspurg

I mostly copy-pasted opinions of others (mostly from poreklo) who have researched this matter far more than me. But just setting some things straight. It was not me who said that Paganians and others are of Serb origin it was the Porfirogenitus.

You should not copy-paste opinions of other people. Paganians do not descent from 7th century Serbs as the people who lived in that territory never called themselves Serbs during the last 1300 years (and no other source mentioned them as Serbs). Moreover, there is no arceological evidence of 7th century Serbs whatsoever.
14-08-19, 22:33
Aspurg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonomyro

Are you trying to conclude something about the origin of the whole nation based on coulple of exotic samples found in the present day population? Your methodology does not seem to be very convincing...

Well obviously genetically vast majority doesn't have such origins, nevertheless so many authors hypothesized about said origins, and it was considered preferable by many in the past and likely still to this day among Croats to have such origin.

Well I think once these "exotic" Croats pop up among commercially tested people they might sing the same tune. In fact I see the Slovenian of this cluster has already joined the Ossetian project.

So lets not pretend this is something new, it is not and still there are many Croats who would prefer this to be true, hence no need to raise your eyebrows as if I'm trying to "spoil" something. This also used to be very much mainstream among Croats.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonomyro

Really? You find ONE Avar in Zagreb?!!! Great!!! Who can ever doubt that Croats are of Avar origin?

Well it is to be expected to find such traces there considering the history etc. I didn't say I consider the Avar theory that serious but who knows.. From wiki:

Quote:

The theory was initially developed by Otto Kronsteiner in 1978.[24][40] He tried to prove that early Croats were an upper caste of Avar origin, which blended with Slavic nobility during the 7th and 8th century and abandoned their Avar language.[41] As arguments for his thesis he considered the Tatar-Bashkir derivation of Croatian ethnonym;[41] that Croats and Avars are almost always mentioned together

Actually the Zagrebian has cousins among Tatars and Bashkirs!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonomyro

You should not copy-paste opinions of other people. Paganians do not descent from 7th century Serbs as the people who lived in that territory never called themselves Serbs during the last 1300 years (and no other source mentioned them as Serbs). Moreover, there is no arceological evidence of 7th century Serbs whatsoever.

Well translating those views also involves little bit work from me. Have you been there on poreklo, I saw one Croat arguing there about White Croats and I-Y3120 etc. and yes Serb admin used Chodove, I-Z16983 and other points against him.
About early Serbs, yes there aren't many early finds, but I think Jankovic and others wrote about some..

I agree that Paganians were a specific population in many ways, but the Byzantine emperor/historian had his own sources, him being emperor definitely must have helped in research.
14-08-19, 23:12
Miroslav

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonomyro

We are dealing with the I2a-Din haplogroup and its migration paths. Now we see another evidence that supports its origin from, or nearby, the territory of the early medieval White Croatia.

Hardly an evidence, it's only an assumption on the Chodove movement and ancestry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aspurg

Czech wiki: "Velký význam však sehrálo přijetí Nábských Srbů (Chodů) Boleslavem I. za strážce západní hranice."

I cannot find that in the Czech wiki.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aspurg

It is also no accident that the primitive shapes of ear-rings with various trinkets found at Věstonice have some analogues in South Bohemia (Lékařova Lhota) and also in the southern most tip of the territory of the Serbians living along the Naab River (Matzhausen).

This is out of context. Chodove live in Western Bohemia while this quote is relating to South Moravia and South Bohemia, and dated to "the end of the Great Moravian Empire period and later".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aspurg

These are all Czech sources.

I don't see anything relevant. Fringe theory is a fringe theory, no matter from where, language or reliability is the source.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aspurg

Along Dalmatian coast there were Travunia, Zachumlia and Pagania. According to the first degree historical source, Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus, Narentines (Pagania), Zachumlians, Travunians are explicitly of Serbian origin descending from those Serbs who settled the area in time of Heraclius.

DAI is more often a political rather than historical source. That quote is most probably a Emperor's invention because at the moment these principalities became under Serbian rule in the 10th century, due to the Serbian political expansion under Časlav who was supported by the Byzantines. If you want to consider that the source is saying the truth then population of Dioclea, for which is not mentioned such a thing, is not of Serbian origin. Also, more importantly, according to the source Serbia became completely desolated and was resettled. That was described in details so it was certainly based on archival sources, contrary to exceptional claims about something centuries ago.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aspurg

The area where Portifogenitus places the settlement of Croats is of course to the West, there we see spike of R1a, especially R-Y2608 in Chakavian Croats... These facts give better insight as to what the original White Croatian haplogroup might be, R-Y2608 being the number one, but also there are some other branches such as R-Y132940 who likely migrated with them. / Now that you mention it some Serbs are R-L260 and not only that they are R-Y2905+. I took a look at Sorb R1a's and the dominant Sorb haplotype is basically certainly R-Y2905 whose TMRCA is 2000 ybp, so there might be some connection there. There is in Croats R-Y132940 cluster but they are Y2905-.

Most probably both Serbs and Croats were predominantly R1a. Good analysis of Sorb & Serb R1a. People should waste less time on PH908 and focus more on R1a.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aspurg

I know it must be convenient for many Croats to lump some Narentine I-Y3120's into White Croats, but Narentines were not White Croats, and Portifogenitus, who of any sources we have is the most competent to speak about their origins because he must have gained this information first hand from their chiefs, said they were of Serb origin. But I think there likely are I-Y3120 White Croatian clades too.

Well, you're doing the same thing, lump and accept what is convenient to you from DAI, and ignoring what is not. We don't know if Narentines were or not directly and how much related to the Croats. DAI is obviously referring to the Sorbs in the centuries it was written, directly relating Sorbs and Serbs, and yet "many Serbs" tend to ignore and neglect that. The previous assumptions you made were according to the results of contemporary Croatian and Serbian population in the South, with founder effects and else, while if we want to know what was the Y-DNA haplogroup proportion in those so-called White Serbs and White Croats tribes we should analyze their ancestral & contemporary population in the North, especially if they were in isolation. Otherwise we are not proving the thing we claim to prove.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aspurg

Regional study of Czechs, in Western Czech R., in Klatovy I-P37 is 14.6 %. Klatovy are one of Chodove centers.

If you put that in the context of the study of Sorbs then can be made some parallels, otherwise it is not saying anything. What is the % of Dinaric-South in Klatovy?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aspurg

Sedov (and other Russian and German archeologists) Luzichani and Milchani belonged to Tornov archeological culture whereas Serbs who lived in modern Czech-German border belonged to Ryusen culture.

Except that Sedov relates Sorbs with Lusatian Slavs, and Sorbs with Serbs.
14-08-19, 23:12
Wonomyro

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aspurg

Well obviously genetically vast majority doesn't have such origins, nevertheless so many authors hypothesized about said origins, and it was considered preferable by many in the past and likely still to this day among Croats to have such origin.

Well I think once these "exotic" Croats pop up among commercially tested people they might sing the same tune. In fact I see the Slovenian of this cluster has already joined the Ossetian project.

So lets not pretend this is something new, it is not and still there are many Croats who would prefer this to be true, hence no need to raise your eyebrows as if I'm trying to "spoil" something. This also used to be very much mainstream among Croats.

Well it is to be expected to find such traces there considering the history etc. I didn't say I consider the Avar theory that serious but who knows.. From wiki:

Actually the Zagrebian has cousins among Tatars and Bashkirs!

Well translating those views also involves little bit work from me. Have you been there on poreklo, I saw one Croat arguing there about White Croats and I-Y3120 etc. and yes Serb admin used Chodove, I-Z16983 and other points against him.

Science is not based on anecdotes. There is a nice study on Croatian medieval skulls (M. Šlaus) that found the close relation with Poland. The same study found Iranic skulls very distant. Medieval Croats were Slavs as much as medieval Poles were.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aspurg

About early Serbs, yes there aren't many early finds, but I think Jankovic and others wrote about some..

Yeah. In absence of early Serbian findings, Jankovic was looking for Serbs in the center of medieval Croatian dukedom :laughing:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aspurg

I agree that Paganians were a specific population in many ways, but the Byzantine emperor/historian had his own sources, him being definitely must have helped in research.

Some scientists like Slovenian B. Grafenauer argumented that emperor did not know anything about the early Serb history so he used Croat one as a template. He analysed sentence by sentence.
14-08-19, 23:18
Wonomyro

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miroslav

Hardly an evidence, it's only an assumption on the Chodove movement and ancestry..

But what quality of evidence do we have on the other side?
15-08-19, 00:13
Miroslav

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonomyro

But what quality of evidence do we have on the other side?

It doesn't matter, the thing is that's an assumption on the emergence of Chodove in the region. What's their early history, only God knows.

On Czech wiki is said that, translate, "The Chodas appeared in written sources during the 13th century and there are disputes as to whether their origin can be derived from the early medieval guards, which served here during the Přemyslid princes, or whether the population was newly settled here during the settlement processes century. Some sources also derive from the military raids of Czech princes to Poland in the 11th century, from which the Slavic population was to be moved from the Noteć and Khojja rivers near the princely Gniezno. This would also explain the ethnographic differences from the surrounding population as well as the sometimes eastward dialect".

Anyway, both theories, especially the second, don't support the fringe theory about "Nabian Serbs". Actually, the source above is really confusing, "Při stopování dávných severobavorských Slovanů (nejen tzv. Nábských Srbů) narážíme na potíže nejen v tom, že nejsme schopni říci nic o etnické příslušnosti a jazyce, jímž v okolí Řezna", because considers them as North Bavarian Slavs (are Nabian Serbs here a synonym for Sorbs?), saying that it is difficult to know the ethnicity and language of the Slavs around Regensburg (?). The whole chapter is titled and dealing with "Přednáška o starých Slovanech v Bavorsku" and is published in Lusatian Sorbs magazine Česko-lužický věstník.

Indeed, Michal Živný from the University of Ostrava in Pohřební ritus na Moravě v 11. - 15. století ve středoevropském kontextu wrote on pg. 41 "První oblast představuje přibližně jižní a střední část Německa, západní polovina Rakouska a Švýcarsko. Části tohoto území jižně od Dunaje a západně od Rýna byly od počátku doby římské součástí římského impéria a později i antické církevní organizace. Za hranicemi impéria sídlily od doby římské germánské kmeny - na jihozápadě Německa Alamani, ve střední části Frankové a na východ od nich se vytvářeli Durynkové. V době stěhování národů došlo k částečnému přerušení vývoje v bývalých římských provinciích, způsobenému invazí Alamanů do Švýcarska a Rakouska a přesídlením svévských kmenů do Bavorska. V 5. - 6. století se popisované území stalo součástí Francké říše. Je možno dodat, že nějakou dobu po porážce Durynské říše Franky roku 531 se do Durynska a do severního Bavorska přesunula či byla přesunuta část slovanských kmenů, které osídlili území až do povodí řek Naab, Regen, Regnitz a horní Mohan (tzv. nábští Srbové) (Menghin 1990, 96-9)". In other words, the "so-called nábští Srbové" were part of the Slavic tribes who settled up to the Naab, Regen, Regnitz and Upper Main river basins and after 531 partly moved to Thuringia and northern Bavaria.

That makes sense to what's written in the 7th century Chronicle of Fredegar. It mentions Dervan in 631, the "ruler of the people of the Surbi", as being subordinate to the Franks for a long time and then joining the Slavic union of Samo, and "Further reports of Fredegar imply that Dervan and his people lived to the east of the Saxon Saale", and "was fighting against Thuringia 631-634 and Dervan was finally defeated by duke Radulf, governor of Thuringia in 636". This is a confirmation that at least the Serbs/Sorbs were definetly not brifely in the region east of Thuringia, around the river Elbe.
15-08-19, 04:19
HiveMindTerror

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aspurg

Thats going in direction of HiveMindTerror saying Croat name "Ante" has something to do with Antes :laughing:

Hey that's something I read at some point by some historian. There are links to old Croats and Antes historically, as well as Sclavenians.
17-09-19, 17:48
gyms

What is the main haplogroup of Cucuteni-Trypillian (Tripolye) Culture?

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31334-What-is-the-main-haplogroup-of-Cucuteni-Trypillian-(Tripolye)-culture/page3

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...35616.full.pdf
07-10-19, 13:29
Szigmund

What are your toughts on Mygration's map? (especially to I2-L621 and I-S17250)
https://phylogeographer.com/mygrations/
08-10-19, 16:31
Dibran

Quote:

Originally Posted by Szigmund

What are your toughts on Mygration's map? (especially to I2-L621 and I-S17250)
https://phylogeographer.com/mygrations/

Relies on modern samples. Not to be taken seriously. Their hope is to eventually become accurate with more data. Right now, just for fun. For example R1a-M417 is theoretically computed as originating in North-East Germany based on modern convergence( https://phylogeographer.com/r-m417-o...as-ne-germany/).

However, the oldest M417 discovered is from Alexandria, Ukraine.
13-12-19, 17:08
Piro Ilir

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut

Statistics! where are Slavs that haplo is present in majority! Statistics is science as far as I know!

That haplo is a majority only in Bosniaks, Montenegrins and Croats. In some extent whether in Serbs. In other nations of Slavic origin, I2a din is a minority, which is overlapped by R1a.
13-12-19, 17:39
Piro Ilir

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ownstyler

Since the idea that I2a-CTS10228>Y3120 might not be Slavic keeps coming back, I am posting a summary of what the current data tells about it's origins and arrival to the Balkans.

Ancient DNA:
1- The earliest I2a-CTS10228 found so far is a Polish 9th cent I-S17250. It's closest relative on the YFull tree is from Ukraine.
2- I2a is absent in a 5th-6th cent cemetery in Hungary. This was a Longobard cemetery in use during and after the Germanic migrations but before the Slavic ones. Small sample (21) but there were several Germanic lines, and even a few more southern ones, but no I2a.

Modern DNA:
1- SNP diversity
As can be seen on YFull. Out of 5 major I-Y3120 branches:
-2 are only found in in Eastern Europe (Y3120* & Y4460) -tmrca 2200 for Y4460
-1 is most diverse in Greece, secondly in Eastern Europe (Y18331) - tmrca 2200
-1 is pretty even in diversity between Eastern Europe & the Balkans (I-S17250) - tmrca 1800
-1 is more diverse in the Balkans, secondly in Eastern E. with MRCA equal/close to the whole branch (I-Z17855) -tmrca 1600

So Eastern Europe currently has more branches, more diversity within them, and more distant MRCAs.

2- STR diversity
It has been calculated (here, p.26) that haplotypes with:
- DYS448=19 (I2a-DinSouth) are most diverse in the Poland-Belarus area
- DYS448=20 (I2a-DinNorth) are most diverse in Ukraine

To summarize, current data suggest a huge expansion out of Eastern Europe which reached the Balkans no earlier than the 5-6th century CE.

That's pretty clear. I'm just questioning, if I2a1 spread with the early Slavs, then why it peaks in southslavs and not in east slavs or in west Slavs ?! In East and west Slavs is prevalent the R1a while at the South Slavics prevails I2a1.
13-12-19, 17:43
Piro Ilir

[QUOTE=Ownstyler;571616]I gave ample evidence that I-Y3120 expanded out of Eastern Europe. I was not saying that every single line was spread by Slavs, but the overwhelming majority probably was, and the great expansion experienced by this branch was first and foremost due to the Slavic expansion and migration. Not everything is already set in stone, but I presented the likeliest scenario with the current data.

You raised a lot of questions but gave no alternative explanations. Yes, the ethnic origins of Y18331 may still be debated, but it probably started in Eastern Europe too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy

Why are all the Y18331 East Europeans Jewish males and not “indigenous” people? Jews migrated to East Europe./QUOTE]

If you believe that the Y18331 in Eastern Europe is due to a Jewish migration, how do you explain the absence of this branch in the Middle East, or wherever you think these Jewish people moved from? Right now, it seems more likely that Y23115 started in Eastern Europe and was then spread by the descendants of a person or family who converted to Judaism there.

That's right too. Judaism is a religion. Anyone may be converted at one point, especially now days
13-12-19, 21:08
Kelmendasi

Quote:

Originally Posted by gyms

What is the main haplogroup of Cucuteni-Trypillian (Tripolye) Culture?

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31334-What-is-the-main-haplogroup-of-Cucuteni-Trypillian-(Tripolye)-culture/page3

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...35616.full.pdf

So far, it seems that the males of this culture were predominantly G-L43, though there were some other haplos such as E-M78.

aDNA from the Cucuteni-Trypillian Culture:
1) I1926 - G2a2b2a
2) I1927 - G2a2b2a1a1b1a1a1
3) I2110 - G2a2b2a
4) I3151 - E-M78

I have seen I3151 being classified as E-Z830+ though I am unsure as to how accurate this classification is. Z830 is ancestral to M123 which is primarily found in the Middle East.
13-12-19, 21:10
Kelmendasi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piro Ilir

That's pretty clear. I'm just questioning, if I2a1 spread with the early Slavs, then why it peaks in southslavs and not in east slavs or in west Slavs ?! In East and west Slavs is prevalent the R1a while at the South Slavics prevails I2a1.

This has been explained many times. I-CTS10228 in modern day South Slavic peoples went through founder effects which increased its frequency. What matters most is diversity and basal diversity, this is low in South Slavs and higher in East and West Slavs.
05-01-20, 16:34
Vlad82

ANALYSIS OF HUMAN SKELETAL REMAINS FROM ARCHAEOLOGICAL SITES IN BOSNIA AND HERZEGOVINA

DNA analysis of medieval Bosnians from 14. or 15. century, all samples are I2a1b (very likely majority are PH908) except one R1a.
Unfortunately, I did not find any data about number of tested samples and Y-STR haplotypes.
Koposici and Divičani
18-01-20, 15:15
Demetrios

I am not even close of having formed an opinion on the origin of I2a-Din in the Balkans, but has the Celtic possibility been addressed? I don't know, i am just asking. I personally voted for "Other" in the poll above.

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