How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

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Originally Posted by Noman

Evidence says to me r1a has always been right where it is. How can you say it's not always been there without providing an example of something there in the same place before it was. What a joke.

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"Right where it is?" Like Sweden? India? The United States?

OK, I get what you mean--Eastern Europe, with high concentrations in Balto-Slavs and some others. I do think that R1a (or at least R1a1a) has its MRCA location in or around the Eurasian Steppe, so Eastern Europe could have very ancient R1a indeed. The Balkans aren't exactly at the epicenter of that region, though, so it is likely younger there. One tricky thing about the Balkans is that it isn't entirely clear what its late Paleolithic composition was. If it was mainly I2, as many suggest, then the I2 presence there collapsed and then came back via its Western descendants. I think "not enough data to say for sure" is a valid response.

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Originally Posted by sparkey

"Right where it is?" Like Sweden? India? The United States?

OK, I get what you mean--Eastern Europe, with high concentrations in Balto-Slavs and some others. I do think that R1a (or at least R1a1a) has its MRCA location in or around the Eurasian Steppe, so Eastern Europe could have very ancient R1a indeed. The Balkans aren't exactly at the epicenter of that region, though, so it is likely younger there. One tricky thing about the Balkans is that it isn't entirely clear what its late Paleolithic composition was. If it was mainly I2, as many suggest, then the I2 presence there collapsed and then came back via its Western descendants. I think "not enough data to say for sure" is a valid response.

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In Serbia dominant haplogroup is I. According Mirabal et al. (2010) I2a2 is 38,5%, I1 is 7,8% and I2b1 is 1,67%. I assumed that I2a2 (or perhaps I1) is the oldest haplogroup in Serbia and region but science says it is R1a. Although Regueiro et al. (2012), claim that I2a2 is old in Serbia about 9000 years, it is less than R1a for which authors claim that it is the 20,000-12,000 years ago. And other authors, for example Klyosov, claim that R1a is very old in Serbia (more than 10,000 years).

Possible that you’re right, that Balkan I2a2 had wrong way. Although for me is very unusual that all I bearers left the Balkans and then some back from North and East most in the form of I2a2. And it is very unusual link between R1a and I2a2. Serbs and Upper Macedonians (and slightly less Bosniacs) are quite different from Slavic population (Croats and Slovenes are much closer, first of all to Ukrainians), but they speak South Slavic language. It is big mystery. Serbs and Upper Macedonians are very Balkans people, perhaps most typical Balkan people watching haplogroups, which is not surprising as they are in the center of the Balkan Peninsula.

R1a indeed could be old in Balkans, according to FTDNA project there's some Old European R1a found in Greece and Macedonia.

I2a1b on the other hand isn't old in the region and most likely got there with Slavic invasions.

You think I2a1b got in Balkans with the latest Slavic invasion of ~ 600 AD? Deviations suggest that?

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Originally Posted by Eldritch

R1a indeed could be old in Balkans, according to FTDNA project there's some Old European R1a found in Greece and Macedonia.

I2a1b on the other hand isn't old in the region and most likely got there with Slavic invasions.

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It is probably that R1a is the oldest in Balkans. Klyosov (2009) claims that R1a can be old in Serbia, Kosovo, Macedonia (today’s FYROM or Upper Macedonia) and Bosnia 11,650 +-1,550 years. According Regueiro et al. (2012) R1a in Serbia can be 20,000-12,000 years old.

But I2a2 (or newer nomenclature I2a1b) is mystery because carriers of I haplogroup had very unusual roads. It would be logical that haplogroup I is the oldest in the Balkan, but for some reason that we don’t know, the oldest carriers of I haplogroup has no in the Balkans. Or we still lack some knowledge to arrange a mosaic.

According to Regueiro et al. (2012, Gene) I2a2 (I2a1b) is about 9,000 years old in Serbia. You claim it is 1,500 years. Maybe authors are right, maybe no, but what is certain is that further researches are needed.

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Originally Posted by Garrick

It is probably that R1a is the oldest in Balkans. Klyosov (2009) claims that R1a can be old in Serbia, Kosovo, Macedonia (today’s FYROM or Upper Macedonia) and Bosnia 11,650 +-1,550 years. According Regueiro et al. (2012) R1a in Serbia can be 20,000-12,000 years old.

But I2a2 (or newer nomenclature I2a1b) is mystery because carriers of I haplogroup had very unusual roads. It would be logical that haplogroup I is the oldest in the Balkan, but for some reason that we don’t know, the oldest carriers of I haplogroup has no in the Balkans. Or we still lack some knowledge to arrange a mosaic.

According to Regueiro et al. (2012, Gene) I2a2 (I2a1b) is about 9,000 years old in Serbia. You claim it is 1,500 years. Maybe authors are right, maybe no, but what is certain is that further researches are needed.

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I am I2a2-DinS.Is this slavic?
Admix Results: (Dodekad K7b Oracle-X Population Fitting)

#	Population	Percent
1	South_Asian	0.00
2	West_Asian	16.61
3	Siberian	1.72
4	African	0.00
5	Southern	19.37
6	Atlantic_Baltic	60.53
7	East_Asian	1.77

Pct. Calc. Option 2

1	Hungarians	59.29%
2	Finnish	11.10%
3	Yemen_Jews	9.79%
4	Lithuanians	7.92%
5	Cypriots	7.53%
6	Romanians	2.17%
7	Tu	1.09%
8	Korean	1.08%
9	Sephardic_Jews	0.02%
10	Uygur	0.01%

an article about homeland of slavs.......again, south belarussia and northern ukraine ............from Polish and Russian discussion

all Slavic populations constitute a mixture of three major components (R1a-M458, R1a-Z280 and I2a-Din) and it is obvious that the putative expansion of the Early Slavs from their hypothetical homeland (likely encompassing Southern Belarus and NW Ukraine where those three Y-DNA components show the most balanced frequencies) would lead to some significant differences in their relative frequencies at the particular end points of their journey, especially when these Early Slavs constituted a mixture of some smaller tribes that were sharing a common language and culture but their genetic background could have beeen quite different. Thus, they ended up with the R1a-M458 clade showing the highest frequency among the Western Slavs, R1a-Z280 dominating among the Eastern Slavs and I2a-Din being most frequent among the Southern Slavs. Actually, it would be almost impossible to maintain exactly the same original composition of all those Y-DNA components in every Slavic subpopulation.

I figure the I2a-Din is L69 branch

I don't see that as much of an argument. Where three frequencies are balanced now days means nothing. We can't even know if they were balanced at the beginning.

So Sile; your hypothesis is hg I1a waited out the LGM in the Iberian peninsula then moved to Central Europe first and then to Scandinavia. Probably somewhere near Germany one branch split off and went towards Belarussia/Poland then from this original Slavic homeland R1a and I2a lineages poured at the same time south and eastwards with the r1a more ending up across all the Eastern Europe and i2a being the Slavic marker that decided to heavily colonize more the Balkans region.....I doubt it.

Seems to be significant for the discussion, check page 27: http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/s...1/001552-3.pdf

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Originally Posted by Shetop

Seems to be significant for the discussion, check page 27: http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/s...1/001552-3.pdf

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Population Genetic and Craniometric Characterization of an Avar Period Individual from Croatia

Matthew D Teasdale, Noreen von CramonTaubadel, Eppie R Jones, Mario Šlaus, Russell L McLaughlin, Daniel G Bradley, Ron Pinhasi

The Avars were a Eurasian equestrian population that migrated from the East to Europe where they settled in the general area of the Carpathian basin and established a kingdom that lasted from the 6th to the 9th century AD (Curta 2006; Curta and Kovalev 2008). The Avars had a rich material culture, which has allowed for the tracking of their migrations and the subsequent assimilation of local populations as they became more sedentary (Sinor 1990; Curta and Kovalev 2008). These archaeological resources make the Avars an appropriate population for the study of early medieval population movements. Next generation sequencing (NGS) (Metzker 2009) has revolutionized the field of ancient DNA, by providing the ability to rapidly sequence thousands of ancestry informative genetic markers in archaeological samples. These markers can then be used to compare ancient samples to modern reference populations of known geographic origin (SanchezQuinto et al. 2012; Skoglund et al. 2012). The assessment of an ancient populations affinities and variability based on craniometric data is commonplace in biological anthropology (von CramonTaubadel and Pinhasi 2011; Pinhasi and von CramonTaubadel 2012), however thus far no study has combined both NGS genetic and craniometric analyses. In this paper we present the results of a combined genetic/craniometric analysis to characterise the affinity of an Avar period individual from Croatia with excellent osteological preservation. Preliminary results from both of these analyses suggest that this individual shares a closer relationship with modern day European populations than those of the proposed Avar homeland in central Asia.


So what we get from this is that there was a male living in Hvar, Croatia around 500AD that was haplogroup Q. It would be nice to see where he fell within European autosomal DNA, and it is not surprising at all that he does not fall within central Asian DNA.

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Originally Posted by james stock

Population Genetic and Craniometric Characterization of an Avar Period Individual from Croatia

So what we get from this is that there was a male living in Hvar, Croatia around 500AD that was haplogroup Q.

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How do you know it was haplogroup Q?
I don't think that info is correct.

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How do you know it was haplogroup Q?
I don't think that info is correct.

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Yeah, you're right. I don't know the haplogroup, my mistake. I thought I saw someone say it was haplogroup Q on another website but I must have misread it.

Yes.All I2a people was geneticists.

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Originally Posted by Taranis

Well Dale, I am terribly sorry, I do not know what your source is, but this view regarding Haplogroups R1a/R1b is hopelessly outdated. We know for sure now that both R1a and R1b entered Europe significantly later than the end of the last ice age. The oldest occurence known thus far of R1a in Europe is from a site near Eulau, Germany, which dates back to the Corded Ware Culture (circa 2600 BC). The oldest find of R1b in Europe (thus far!) is from Lichtenstein Cave in northern Germany, which dates into the Urnfield Culture (1000 BC). Both the Neolithic sites of France (Treilles) and Germany (Derenburg) yielded no R1a or R1b what so ever.

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There's been no ancient r1a or r1b found in west asia though, either.

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Originally Posted by Aristocephalic

There's been no ancient r1a or r1b found in west asia though, either.

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well there is the r1a Andronovo, but that is rather central asia than west asia
is there any ancient dna tested in west asia ?

The Sarmatian idea is very appealing to me personally, and I have seen numerous examples cited of Serbo-Croatian words, including the Croatian endonym itself, of supposed Iranic derivation, ditto for certain regional customs. But the Paleolithic continuity theory probably makes the most sense, all things considered. I realize that I2a-Din is a young subclade, but could it not have evolved in situ in the Balkans, from an older clade? Admittedly I haven't read through this entire thread, so this idea has probably been dismissed for reasons that I'm entirely ignorant of.

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Originally Posted by skaheen15

I realize that I2a-Din is a young subclade, but could it not have evolved in situ in the Balkans, from an older clade?

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It could not.
There is no sensible explanation how did I2a-Din made its way to Northern Russia, but it could not make it to Italy. Absurdity of such an assumption is amplified with the argument that such a young clade migrations would have to be well described by some known historical events or processes. And there are no such.

This is a good thread but it spans 3 years and we have so much more data now than then.

I have leaned towards paleolithic continuity, for the simple reason that some of the oldest Y DNA we have found in Europe has been I2a1b. As to explain the absence in Italy my guess was that the Alps were glacial at the time I2a Din was expanding making Italy inaccessible, and by the time they WERE accessible the area was already inhabited by G2a which expanded into Italy along the Mediterranean from Greece preventing a significant expansion. This theory has a lot of problems though, mainly the distribution of the Cardium Pottery Culture, which seems to have been spread by G2a into Europe, but exists in Croatia/Bosnia where we see little G2a and the highest I2a1b. So it would be in one area a cultural diffusion and in one area the result of migration..? Doesn't make sense.

What also doesn't make sense is the high frequency of I2a1 M26 in Sardinia, Autosomally Sardinia is mostly EEF with little WHG, yet on the other hand the Motala/Lochsbur men we are using as the yardstick for WHG are I2a1...

The Slav explanation I see as the worst and most nonsensical, there would have to be more R1a if this was the case.

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Originally Posted by motzart

This is a good thread but it spans 3 years and we have so much more data now than then.

I have leaned towards paleolithic continuity, for the simple reason that some of the oldest Y DNA we have found in Europe has been I2a1b. As to explain the absence in Italy my guess was that the Alps were glacial at the time I2a Din was expanding making Italy inaccessible, and by the time they WERE accessible the area was already inhabited by G2a which expanded into Italy along the Mediterranean from Greece preventing a significant expansion. This theory has a lot of problems though, mainly the distribution of the Cardium Pottery Culture, which seems to have been spread by G2a into Europe, but exists in Croatia/Bosnia where we see little G2a and the highest I2a1b. So it would be in one area a cultural diffusion and in one area the result of migration..? Doesn't make sense.

What also doesn't make sense is the high frequency of I2a1 M26 in Sardinia, Autosomally Sardinia is mostly EEF with little WHG, yet on the other hand the Motala/Lochsbur men we are using as the yardstick for WHG are I2a1...

The Slav explanation I see as the worst and most nonsensical, there would have to be more R1a if this was the case.

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Another thing need explaining ...............since the northern part of the adriatic sea did not exist and Italy and the balkans where joined as far south as modern Ancona, then why is there very little of this marker in the northern and central Italy if its a balkan marker?

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Originally Posted by motzart

there would have to be more R1a if this was the case.

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Why is that?

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Originally Posted by Sile

Another thing need explaining ...............since the northern part of the adriatic sea did not exist and Italy and the balkans where joined as far south as modern Ancona, then why is there very little of this marker in the northern and central Italy if its a balkan marker?

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I did not know this, less evidence for paleolithic continuity. One thing I do believe strongly is that the origin point for all the I2 subclades has to be Bavaria, at some point pre LGM there had to have been a population explosion there. Each and every one of the I2 clades is found very near there in high frequencies overlapping.

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Originally Posted by Sile

Another thing need explaining ...............since the northern part of the adriatic sea did not exist and Italy and the balkans where joined as far south as modern Ancona, then why is there very little of this marker in the northern and central Italy if its a balkan marker?

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Isn't that a moot point, though, considering that I2a Din is less than 3,000 years old?

Where from did you get the data about the "exact" age?

I think if not Paleolithic continuity then the best explanation is that it was spread by the Gothic tribes. M26 being Visigoth, M423 being Ostrogoth. If you know the history of the Goths well you know that they migrated en masse from Far Eastern Europe south of the Danube to escape the Huns, eventually settling in Pannonia. This matches perfectly the hot spots of I2a1 in the Balkans (South of the Danube, in the Ostrogothic Kingdom we find the highest frequencies of I2a1). It also explains I2a1 in western Ukraine North of the Danube.

Visigoths were granted land in the Aquitaine, homeland of the Basques, which is where we see another hotspot of I2a1 in an otherwise relatively homogenous R1b group. The Visigoths also conquered Sardinia which explains the high frequency of I2a1 M26 in the Region with it being a relatively homogenous EEF group autosomally. The Goths were likely already drifted from the makeup of Lochsbur/Motala, contributed less WHG to the overall makeup of Sardinia.

We know that I2a1b existed in Sweden (Gotaland) in the Mesolithic (Motala), the history of the Goths states that they migrated out of Scandinavia through Eastern Europe and established a kingdom in Dacia (Now Western Ukraine/Romania north of the Danube). This matches the Distribution of I2a1 perfectly.
http://cache.eupedia.com/images/cont...ogroup_I2a.gif

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...rd_century.jpg

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